My question is should classes be locked in to what weapons and armor they can use?
Personally I like the idea of making my character my own. I can live with being tied to a specific class (until I switch via multi-classing, ahem) but I would like some flexibility. Bards did get to wear plate in EQ after all. If I want to play a "Battle Mage" should I be able to roll a Wizard, wear plate and wield a 2h?
Thoughts?
Think TESO is that way----->
But seriously, i like the vanguard way of doing things. In Vanguard you have many types of weapons, clerics wear plate and can use all of the below weapons.
2H Blunt
1H Blunt
Hand to Hand
Thrown Hammers
Hammer
Mace
Great Spear
Great Maul
Club
Which would make sense if I wanted to play TESO, in which case I would be posting ---->
Vanguard does indeed offer a wide variety of weapons per class due to the variety of weapons in the game total but it's still limiting.
I see that some people like the standard archetype pairings, which is fine. I would like to add that I don't think a plate wearing Wizard would cast as powerfully as one in robes, that aspect should balance out with the plate offering more protection. I think if you are allowed to make those type of choices then you could really make your character how you wish them to be.
In EQ2 mages had self-buffs that would augment their cloth armor to the same level as leather and indeed with some changes to Alternate Advancement lines from the normal min-max choices could become as survivable as a scout class in chain. Allowing them to wear chain on top of that would have been OP.
Flexible yes, allowing OP combinations no. Sacrificing magic power by wearing better armor: well maybe, but I can see that becoming OP overtime as well.
i know, but the "armor buffs" are in every single mmo. Is SOE trying to make just another generic mmo? i hope not.
As for the second comment, its not OP combinations. There you can use the old idea of cloths make mages stronger, give them a chainmail and they can still cast magic but not as strong instead giving them capabilities to enchant the weapon since the raw magic wouldnt be as strong.
There are lots of ideas and ways to make this work. And also to screwe it up if not done right. But i hope there is enough class flexibility to make each class not feel limited and let me make the type of mage i want, or the type of warrior i want, etc.
Well, when i played D&D and AD&D probably there was more restrictions but i think that you couldnt play a wizard that use plate armor even now, howether i m not interested in D&D on EQ forum.
If you want to erase all restrictions in EQN classes, well i want to play a warrior that can go stealth as a rogue, blink as wizard, use powerful ranged spells, heal as a cleric and so on...
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it" -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
Well, when i played D&D and AD&D probably there was more restrictions but i think that you couldnt play a wizard that use plate armor even now, howether i m not interested in D&D on EQ forum.
If you want to erase all restrictions in EQN classes, well i want to play a warrior that can go stealth as a rogue, blink as wizard, use powerful ranged spells, heal as a cleric and so on...
Then you'd A) suffer from armor penalties (so in a straight up magic duel vs a pure mage your ass would quite literally fall off), your healing would be maybe 1/2 at best as a cleric, your stealth wouldn't be high level enough to fool an actual rogues perception skills, etc,etc. Need I say more or do you really wanna look more like you have no clue what you're talking about?
Free choice of weapon and armor is a nice thing but with the right consequences. The armor needs to be more than just the model+texture and should come with things like requirements/side-effects/penalties(like the D&D armors). Everyone can wear plate armor but the mobility is much less than lighter armor and without enough strength the player could hardly do anything. Similar for weapons. While you may use any weapon you won't be good with them without training and certain weapons(like massive 2 handed Hammers) require additional stats.
Without thoose consequences i prefer limited choices.
Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
You didnt play Guardian in GW2.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
You didnt play Guardian in GW2.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
Some roleplay their own characters which transcends the game universe (IE they have a specific personality which they then adapt to the game they're playing, having a non-fixed weapon and class system allows for these people to roleplay their characters better).
Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
you didnt play battlemage in Dragon Age nor built it in Skyrim
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
You didnt play Guardian in GW2.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
Its fine thats your choice, but other people dont need to suffer those limitations. THis dont affect immersion nor roleplaying because you are the one controlling your character, you use the equipment you desire for your roleplay and your own immersion. The only way to do both is giving more freedom of choice and each player use that freedom the way they want. ITs not full freedom (or it wouldnt make sense to have set classes) but flexible enough to allow variety and player choice within each archetype.
ITs not full freedom (or it wouldnt make sense to have set classes) but flexible enough to allow variety and player choice within each archetype.
It only fails to make sense under certain definitions of the word "class."
There is no rule saying a class must be defined by it's equipment selection.
i know, but apparently there is an invisible rule that companies tend to follow, making every single mmo class defined by its equipment. An old idea that needs to fade away.
ITs not full freedom (or it wouldnt make sense to have set classes) but flexible enough to allow variety and player choice within each archetype.
It only fails to make sense under certain definitions of the word "class."
There is no rule saying a class must be defined by it's equipment selection.
i know, but apparently there is an invisible rule that companies tend to follow, making every single mmo class defined by its equipment. An old idea that needs to fade away.
Players should be given tools and a limit and let loose to define their own classes and/or roles.
Well, when i played D&D and AD&D probably there was more restrictions but i think that you couldnt play a wizard that use plate armor even now, howether i m not interested in D&D on EQ forum.
If you want to erase all restrictions in EQN classes, well i want to play a warrior that can go stealth as a rogue, blink as wizard, use powerful ranged spells, heal as a cleric and so on...
Then you'd A) suffer from armor penalties (so in a straight up magic duel vs a pure mage your ass would quite literally fall off), your healing would be maybe 1/2 at best as a cleric, your stealth wouldn't be high level enough to fool an actual rogues perception skills, etc,etc. Need I say more or do you really wanna look more like you have no clue what you're talking about?
Mine was a provocation, as a warrior i dont want to heal, go stealth (how you can go stealth using heavy armor? is simply ridicolous), use spells.
I want to have my specific abilities that normaly are the use of heavy armors, shield , weapons, 2h weapons and i want that other classes do the same. In my opinion a wizard that can use plate armor or 2h weapon will become too strong, also he probably dont have the training necessary to use weapons and armors exactly as a warrior have no ideo how spells works. Erase these differencies will kill the variety, i dont want to play in a game filled with clones, in what all classes can do all things. I like to have strengths and weakness and i want to count on others that have different abilities from me.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it" -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
My thoughts are: It's about time another take on the pre-CU era SWG professions systems be done, enough with this fixed class, fixed loadout crap.
Originally posted by goozmania There would be no balance in such a system... although the sandbox obsessed don't seem to care about balance, SOE certainly does, as there will be group play and raiding.
I will refer you to EVE-Online, specifically Class 6 wormhole combat anomalies and 9/10 or 10/10 DED sites. Both of those require certain conditions be met to run them without coming out the ass end in a pod and if you think you killing Deathwing was challenging try farming a triple or quad capital escalation on a Class 6 wormhole anomaly on top of the regular spawns (under those conditions if everyone's not sharp and knows what they're doing your ship gets pretty much vaporized).
But weren't there fixed loadouts, to an extent, in SWG too?
I remember you needing sometimes certain skills for a certain weapon (lightning cannon!).
One way people could have their cake and eat it too would be to not put a hard restriction on who coul wear what. But at the same time gear would have bonuses and penalties.
For instance: It isnt easy to dodge in plate armour. And it would take great strenght and stamina to move fast in it too. Putting in hard restrictions is the simple way of doing it. But I would compare it to EVE where you might fly a ship "intended" for "ttanking" but you could fit it for massive damage with almost no tank or for speed. Or for mining or support.
I just think this question can't be answered until we learn about the class system. If it has either a robust multiclass system or subclass system, this may not even need to be an option. This also may not need to be an option if they have more hybrid classes such as a Battle Mage or Spellsword.
Yes, should it be within some reasoning very much so. Its there for balance, particularly armor. A squishy heavy damage dealer should NEVER be wearing full plate dishing massive damage from the back. Now, they COULD make different armor types have different advantages and disadvantages, but chances are it won't work that way and it would provide difficulty to balance (likely one type will rule over the others).
In repeat: YES, it would be stupid if you didn't and lead to massive imbalance.
If there is total freedom for weapons and armor are other things affected though with choices? Is a rogue less effective with stealth wearing plate and carrying a 2 handed sword? Would seem to make sense.
Originally posted by Oberholzer If there is total freedom for weapons and armor are other things affected though with choices? Is a rogue less effective with stealth wearing plate and carrying a 2 handed sword? Would seem to make sense.
Yes it would be hard to be stealthy wearing 20-30 kgs of clanging metal. I love the detractors in this thread that actually try to rationalize restrictive classes... they're 1) trying to balance it in a perfect vacuum and 2) trying to talk only about advantages.
To everyone that thinks they can be the end all be all in a game with freeform classes kindly go (re)play Neverwinter Nights and see how far you get trying to be a -supresses a laugh- heavy plated, stealthy, rogue, or a archmage in plate mail using a greatsword.
It's stupid that you can't use a sword or any other weapon because of the class you pick. Let people use whatever armour and weapons they like. Weapons and armour should have their own progression system.
Originally posted by goozmania There would be no balance in such a system... although the sandbox obsessed don't seem to care about balance, SOE certainly does, as there will be group play and raiding.
There isn't balance in real life. why should there be in a sandbox mmo. Balancing classes messes up the dynamics of mmos.
IMO having class restrictions leads to everyone of that class looking/feeling thei isame.
With no restrictions it allows for more freedom of choice and lets people play characters how they want, using what they want. So one character can be different from another of the same class, which to me is a good thing.
While I'm all for the notion that classes should be restricted to certain weapons and armor, I often wondered in EQ after a speight of "class balancing" that SoE did, that every class could more or less do similar damage, yet my wizzy could still be one-shotted by mobs. Didn't seem quite right to me..
Comments
Which would make sense if I wanted to play TESO, in which case I would be posting ---->
Vanguard does indeed offer a wide variety of weapons per class due to the variety of weapons in the game total but it's still limiting.
I see that some people like the standard archetype pairings, which is fine. I would like to add that I don't think a plate wearing Wizard would cast as powerfully as one in robes, that aspect should balance out with the plate offering more protection. I think if you are allowed to make those type of choices then you could really make your character how you wish them to be.
Plus, it would be nice if I could finally play a DW Paladin...
Is that so much to ask!
I don't think it is
i know, but the "armor buffs" are in every single mmo. Is SOE trying to make just another generic mmo? i hope not.
As for the second comment, its not OP combinations. There you can use the old idea of cloths make mages stronger, give them a chainmail and they can still cast magic but not as strong instead giving them capabilities to enchant the weapon since the raw magic wouldnt be as strong.
There are lots of ideas and ways to make this work. And also to screwe it up if not done right. But i hope there is enough class flexibility to make each class not feel limited and let me make the type of mage i want, or the type of warrior i want, etc.
Well, when i played D&D and AD&D probably there was more restrictions but i think that you couldnt play a wizard that use plate armor even now, howether i m not interested in D&D on EQ forum.
If you want to erase all restrictions in EQN classes, well i want to play a warrior that can go stealth as a rogue, blink as wizard, use powerful ranged spells, heal as a cleric and so on...
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
Of course, I can't imagine a caster wearing plate or wielding a sword.
Just like I can't imagine a tank using a magic staff.
Then you'd A) suffer from armor penalties (so in a straight up magic duel vs a pure mage your ass would quite literally fall off), your healing would be maybe 1/2 at best as a cleric, your stealth wouldn't be high level enough to fool an actual rogues perception skills, etc,etc. Need I say more or do you really wanna look more like you have no clue what you're talking about?
Free choice of weapon and armor is a nice thing but with the right consequences. The armor needs to be more than just the model+texture and should come with things like requirements/side-effects/penalties(like the D&D armors). Everyone can wear plate armor but the mobility is much less than lighter armor and without enough strength the player could hardly do anything. Similar for weapons. While you may use any weapon you won't be good with them without training and certain weapons(like massive 2 handed Hammers) require additional stats.
Without thoose consequences i prefer limited choices.
So I assume those games can do those things, which is fine, just saying what I prefer. I prefer order and class balance, including gear choices specific to archetypes, it allows me to roleplay and immerse in the game more.
Some roleplay their own characters which transcends the game universe (IE they have a specific personality which they then adapt to the game they're playing, having a non-fixed weapon and class system allows for these people to roleplay their characters better).
Its fine thats your choice, but other people dont need to suffer those limitations. THis dont affect immersion nor roleplaying because you are the one controlling your character, you use the equipment you desire for your roleplay and your own immersion. The only way to do both is giving more freedom of choice and each player use that freedom the way they want. ITs not full freedom (or it wouldnt make sense to have set classes) but flexible enough to allow variety and player choice within each archetype.
It only fails to make sense under certain definitions of the word "class."
There is no rule saying a class must be defined by it's equipment selection.
i know, but apparently there is an invisible rule that companies tend to follow, making every single mmo class defined by its equipment. An old idea that needs to fade away.
Players should be given tools and a limit and let loose to define their own classes and/or roles.
Mine was a provocation, as a warrior i dont want to heal, go stealth (how you can go stealth using heavy armor? is simply ridicolous), use spells.
I want to have my specific abilities that normaly are the use of heavy armors, shield , weapons, 2h weapons and i want that other classes do the same. In my opinion a wizard that can use plate armor or 2h weapon will become too strong, also he probably dont have the training necessary to use weapons and armors exactly as a warrior have no ideo how spells works. Erase these differencies will kill the variety, i dont want to play in a game filled with clones, in what all classes can do all things. I like to have strengths and weakness and i want to count on others that have different abilities from me.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
But weren't there fixed loadouts, to an extent, in SWG too?
I remember you needing sometimes certain skills for a certain weapon (lightning cannon!).
Which is why I voted yes!
SWG, Eve, Planetside 2, EQN, Star Citizen
One way people could have their cake and eat it too would be to not put a hard restriction on who coul wear what. But at the same time gear would have bonuses and penalties.
For instance: It isnt easy to dodge in plate armour. And it would take great strenght and stamina to move fast in it too. Putting in hard restrictions is the simple way of doing it. But I would compare it to EVE where you might fly a ship "intended" for "ttanking" but you could fit it for massive damage with almost no tank or for speed. Or for mining or support.
Yes, should it be within some reasoning very much so. Its there for balance, particularly armor. A squishy heavy damage dealer should NEVER be wearing full plate dishing massive damage from the back. Now, they COULD make different armor types have different advantages and disadvantages, but chances are it won't work that way and it would provide difficulty to balance (likely one type will rule over the others).
In repeat: YES, it would be stupid if you didn't and lead to massive imbalance.
Yes it would be hard to be stealthy wearing 20-30 kgs of clanging metal. I love the detractors in this thread that actually try to rationalize restrictive classes... they're 1) trying to balance it in a perfect vacuum and 2) trying to talk only about advantages.
To everyone that thinks they can be the end all be all in a game with freeform classes kindly go (re)play Neverwinter Nights and see how far you get trying to be a -supresses a laugh- heavy plated, stealthy, rogue, or a archmage in plate mail using a greatsword.
There isn't balance in real life. why should there be in a sandbox mmo. Balancing classes messes up the dynamics of mmos.
IMO having class restrictions leads to everyone of that class looking/feeling thei isame.
With no restrictions it allows for more freedom of choice and lets people play characters how they want, using what they want. So one character can be different from another of the same class, which to me is a good thing.
More choices and more variety I say.