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AA nerfs Crafting

BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

I found this interesting - seems the slide to mediocrity on this game is both sudden and tragic for those excited about this title.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/07/11/lost-continent-should-we-worry-about-archeages-crafting/#continued

"So what exactly happened? I'll let KeksX, the author of the aforementioned review, explain. "Crafting in ArcheAge is a really controversial topic. In CBT3 (or 4? I forget), the crafting was really different," he wrote. "There was great item decay, synthesis and all that funsie stuff for hardcore crafters. But because of exactly that, Jake Song and his company decided to put it out. They replaced it with a system that has RNG and not that much item decay anymore; also the item synthesis is out."

Song addressed the controversy directly via his Twitter account late last year. "Most users didn't like the system except hardcore crafters. So we removed it. Sorry," he wrote.

And that appears to be that. ArcheAge, while never advertised as a hardcore sandbox, was at one point shaping up to be a sandpark with a crafting system that actually made crafters an integral part of the game instead of relegating them to the second-class citizen status that they occupy in most of the MMOs released in recent years."

 

So ArcheAge is no longer a "sandpark with a crafting system that actually made crafters an integral part of the game."

It's really looking more and more to be a themepark with open world housing and RvR. Not a bad thing, for those who want such a thing, but each day new information comes out it seems less and less likely this game is going to really meet the hopes and dreams of the sandbox/sandpark crowd.

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Comments

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    That sucks, that they couldn't write a system that bridged the gap between the crafters and the casuals. Some sort of two stage system or something.

    When you write a game for twenty five million dollars, and the systems are limited such that they can be one way or the other, then you've got to target the people who are likely to give you twenty five million dollars worth of income.

    Sometimes reality isn't all that much fun.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SaintGrayeSaintGraye Los Angeles, CAPosts: 109Member

    I hear you, BadSpock, I hear you... sad news, indeed, particularly as I was anticipating this game for the exploration and crafting aspects in particular. I fall decidedly amongst the "hardcore crafting" group, those who find the prospect of a grueling, multi-session quest to acquire the proper materials and fashion them into something useful to be enthralling, amazing and a worthwhile investment of time, even if that item may only be used once. I adored Wurm Online, spending hours in a mineshaft, chipping out the ore that would eventually be smelted down into arms and armor for our soldiers, discarding the low-quality pieces and laboriously hammering my way through wall after wall of stone in search of decent veins; since then, other games have unilaterally failed to compare.

    Perhaps my greatest complaint is this: crafted gear is typically useless in every modern MMORPG.

    Take Rift, for example, which I recently quit after becoming entirely fed up with their crafting "system." As a themepark, Rift is heavily gear-dependent and, like most such games, utilizes a tiered system in order to ensure their players are "properly" equipped to handle each new attraction (read: dungeon, raid, etc). Shamefully, yet as is all too common with MMOs of late, player-crafted gear is at the low end of the tiers. Indeed, apart from a select few runes (which may be equipped to add bonus attributes to items), every piece of crafted gear is either below Tier 2 raid equipment or even introductory PvP gear... as such, forgo those dreams of fashioning some flawless sword for your friends to wield as they storm the castle, in Rift, they'll acquire better weapons than you can ever create merely by repeatedly plinking away like mindless drones at the multi-million HP of a raid boss.

    Mind, my example is somewhat facetious, as a small number of "epic" and "legendary" recipes do exist for select crafting professions, but considering the crafting system itself is of the click-a-button-and-watch-the-progress-bar-fill type, that demands neither skill nor input from the actual crafter, much less reflects their efforts to become a crafter, I believe it can be forgiven.

    tl;dr = as lizardbones said, that sucks.

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    most players don't want deep crafting mmo's.  who knew?  oh,  the developers of 99% of the mmo's to release n the last ten years.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89
    most players don't want deep crafting mmo's.  who knew?  oh,  the developers of 99% of the mmo's to release n the last ten years.

    yeah and thats the reason why not to put in .... because we would not want people who dont really like crafting not to be able to.

  • SaintGrayeSaintGraye Los Angeles, CAPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by muffins89
    most players don't want deep crafting mmo's.  who knew?  oh,  the developers of 99% of the mmo's to release n the last ten years.

    ...and your point is... what?

    Look, mate, the core issue, as I perceive it, is not one of "most players" wanting or not wanting (which is a presumption on your part) a deep crafting system, but rather, that most players have scant, if any, exposure to such a thing. That much is not speculation, it is a fact stemming from the absolute dearth of deep crafting systems in general. The standard "crafting" options in modern MMOs are tacked on features that offer as much complexity and/or depth as the standard player housing; to whit, practically nothing. Press a button, progress bar fills, you receive a mediocre item. That the customary crafting system demands negligible player-input is testament to their shallow mechanics.

    It took me moving out of my small town in one of the most rural parts of the United States to appreciate what I'd left behind, the close-knit community, quiet atmosphere and slower-paced lifestyle. In the same vein, it wasn't until I'd been dragged to a few operas, and rolled my eyes through enough to realize they aren't all fat women with horned hats (indeed, I cannot recall seeing a single one outside of Looney Tunes), that I came to appreciate the likes of La Traviata or Salome. It demanded months ere I could readily distinguish between authentic Asian cuisine and the phony American stuff that's so popular in take-out joints; years before I garnered an appreciation, and skill, for surfboarding, an activity that now consumes most of my outdoor leisure time.

    The point? Had I never been exposed to such activities, I would never have been given the opportunity to appreciate or reject them, respectively, from an informed perspective.

    Deep crafting systems are a niche requirement and will remain that way as 99% of the developers involved with MMOs for the past ten years lack the creative courage to risk exposing their audience to them. It's the entitled crowd that want their rewards immediately, coupled with those who demand every mob they slay drop more "phat loot," that inherently cripple the chance of a decent crafting system making its way into any mainstream MMO.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Sad day for me... I was looking forward to actually have a crafting system to sink my teeth into for once...

    image
  • JimyHumuHumuJimyHumuHumu BilbaoPosts: 250Member

     give it another year and they will dumbify it to WoW levels. Its like devs think if they arent making enough money of their game as it is now - if they make it more like wow, or more simple - money will start flowing :o

     

    like there arent 1000's of mmos with useless crafting already :/

     

    its a huge let down, but lets wait and see what will trion do with our version of Archeage... surely they dont want to have 2x Rift in their mmo catalogue ? :P

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    Originally posted by muffins89
    most players don't want deep crafting mmo's.  who knew?  oh,  the developers of 99% of the mmo's to release n the last ten years.

    yeah and thats the reason why not to put in .... because we would not want people who dont really like crafting not to be able to.

    sad, but true

    In current MMOs, I do not even bother with any professions at all. They are all so boring that I CBA with picking them.

    Besides being an offensive caster which is my main thing in MMO, I would also love to be a crafter, but only if the crafting system is complex and interesting.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • LlexXLlexX HungaryPosts: 197Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    So ArcheAge is no longer a "sandpark with a crafting system that actually made crafters an integral part of the game."

    It's unbeleveable how you guys keep twisting the meaning of things and spread misinformation here on MMORPG.com.

    The truth is that AA has a very complex and hardcore crafting system, the best items are coming from crafting, in fact the 2x level 50 instances are useless (told by Koreans), and none is farming them cuz you need T1 gear and T2 weapon to farm them, and the drops from the instance are equal to the crafting gear between T1 and T2, and there is T3 crafted gear as well, which is much better than the drops from the instances.

    And not that AA has a complex crafting system, it has a very complex item enchantment system as well, if you wanna read more about it, visit:

    Guide to Making Endgame Gear (Item Refining, Upgrading)

    ---------------------

    And now im just going to link one of my conclusion about RNG vs decay here from another forum:

    There are 2 ways to make a working economy:
    1. this RNG type crafting
    2. an item durability-decay ssytem (sorta CBT4)

    Both type of systems have its upsides and downsides:
    1. the RNG is good for people who are buying the gear and risky for crafters,
    2. the decay one is good for the crafters but annoying to the buyers.

    Both of the previous type of crafting systems have a gold-material-item sink when you examine them closer:
    1. there is the chance to get a "useless" item upon crafting a higher version of the item, which can't be used for further upgrading, so you either: trash it, or put on AH for a very cheap price. Also there is a item sink when trying to upgrade the items grade by using Scroll of Refinement.
    2. tons of material sink.
     
    The problem is that on the West, most of the players got used to getting their items easy (instance drop), upgrading it safely (100% success), and once they get the item they can use that until infinity (can't lose it)... well to be more correct, to use it until the next higher level instance is released.
     
    1. I played many Asian MMO game with that item-durability-decay system, but i can get used to it, since i love crafting, and this system favors the crafters.

    2. I never played any MMO game with that item-durability-decay system, but i can get used to it, since i love crafting, and this system favors the crafters.

     ---------------------

    Please do some research about the crafting mechanics and the item progression before you start spreading nonsense! Since there is a huge need for crafters and crafted gear in AA.

  • cheyanecheyane Rome Posts: 3,002Member Uncommon
    I will only do crafting if it matters. If they are going to gut it I will have wasted all that time better to find out now then when they release and I have spent that time getting a crafter up.That would have made me mad.

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  • thyraventhyraven SørumsandPosts: 38Member

    Why it still amaze people that producers aim for a biggest crowd of em all, namely the casuals, still amaze me. Western casual players dont want any niche games at all it seems, and the developers bends over like politicians. Its just the way things are. Does it surprise me at all? Hell no

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common
    This is possibly the only thing that is making me consider passing on AA.
  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    Thyraven, we are all casuals, unless every game we play we play for 30 hours a week at the same time. You don't want generic crap, I don't want generic crap. But producers make generic crap. I avoid the generic crap now:)

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89
    most players don't want deep crafting mmo's.  who knew?  oh,  the developers of 99% of the mmo's to release n the last ten years.

    But that's a bit short sighted.

    I hate crafting (as it usually manifests itself in these games) but I don't want to "raid every night" for new gear.

    I would much rather buy my gear from players.

     

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,275Member Uncommon
    :( one day Spock.
  • NeVeRLiFtNeVeRLiFt Cleveland, TNPosts: 377Member Uncommon

    This has made me consider passing on ArcheAge.

    I guess I will just play Wildstar and settle for that....

     

    Jake Song should not have dumb down the crafting system just to get and keep casual players happy.

    Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS
    Playing: Sims 4, Diablo3, TSW & LoTRO
    Waiting on: Everquest Next, BlackDesert, Camelot Unchained & Pathfinder Online!
    Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LlexX
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    So ArcheAge is no longer a "sandpark with a crafting system that actually made crafters an integral part of the game."

    It's unbeleveable how you guys keep twisting the meaning of things and spread misinformation here on MMORPG.com.

    The truth is that AA has a very complex and hardcore crafting system, the best items are coming from crafting, in fact the 2x level 50 instances are useless (told by Koreans), and none is farming them cuz you need T1 gear and T2 weapon to farm them, and the drops from the instance are equal to the crafting gear between T1 and T2, and there is T3 crafted gear as well, which is much better than the drops from the instances.

    And not that AA has a complex crafting system, it has a very complex item enchantment system as well, if you wanna read more about it, visit:

    Guide to Making Endgame Gear (Item Refining, Upgrading)

    ---------------------

    And now im just going to link one of my conclusion about RNG vs decay here from another forum:

    There are 2 ways to make a working economy:
    1. this RNG type crafting
    2. an item durability-decay ssytem (sorta CBT4)

    Both type of systems have its upsides and downsides:
    1. the RNG is good for people who are buying the gear and risky for crafters,
    2. the decay one is good for the crafters but annoying to the buyers.

    Both of the previous type of crafting systems have a gold-material-item sink when you examine them closer:
    1. there is the chance to get a "useless" item upon crafting a higher version of the item, which can't be used for further upgrading, so you either: trash it, or put on AH for a very cheap price. Also there is a item sink when trying to upgrade the items grade by using Scroll of Refinement.
    2. tons of material sink.
     
    The problem is that on the West, most of the players got used to getting their items easy (instance drop), upgrading it safely (100% success), and once they get the item they can use that until infinity (can't lose it)... well to be more correct, to use it until the next higher level instance is released.
     
    1. I played many Asian MMO game with that item-durability-decay system, but i can get used to it, since i love crafting, and this system favors the crafters.

    2. I never played any MMO game with that item-durability-decay system, but i can get used to it, since i love crafting, and this system favors the crafters.

     ---------------------

    Please do some research about the crafting mechanics and the item progression before you start spreading nonsense! Since there is a huge need for crafters and crafted gear in AA.

    I hear you LlexX, and i agree partially with you. It has a very complex crafting and enchanting system.

    Although i am not 100% certain, if that RNG crafting does have such a resource drain, or is equally good as the old CBT4 item decay system. After all, if anyone got T3 it is over. Or the introduce T4, which just leads to a item spiral.. and i don't know if i really like that. On the other side, T2 will be more or less more than enough for the average gamer for a lot less money. But my point is, the item drain will end at one point (without item spiral).

    Whereas it would be rather constant with the item decay system.

    I have done up a poll for this very topic a few weeks ago. Just participate and let hear your voice.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/386050/Importance-of-Item-Decay-for-Arche-Age-poll-inside.html

    Maybe Trion will pick up the old system for NA/EU.. at least i personally would appreciate it, and favour it a lot over the currently used rng crafting system.

    @BadSpock: And nevertheless is ArcheAge more Sandbox than a lot of other games. And up to now, we don't have a lot to choose from. There is EvE. And thats about it.(yeah, there are some indy games like Wurm Online, but i talk about AAA or almost AAA quality) Maybe EQN may change this. But up to now we know nothing about EQN, and it could be everything.. and a lot less of a sandbox as ArcheAge actually is. But this remain to be seen until we get more information about EQN.

  • LlexXLlexX HungaryPosts: 197Member
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    Although i am not 100% certain, if that RNG crafting does have such a resource drain, or is equally good as the old CBT4 item decay system. After all, if anyone got T3 it is over. Or the introduce T4, which just leads to a item spiral.. and i don't know if i really like that. On the other side, T2 will be more or less more than enough for the average gamer for a lot less money. But my point is, the item drain will end at one point (without item spiral).

    The thing is that you are not over by getting the whole T3 set, you can still try your luck with "Scrolls of Refinement" to upgrade the items rarity/grade to squeeze out more attributes from the items (improve them), and if you fail there is a chance the item breaks and in that case you will need to start everything from the beginning (level 20 item) and this is a huge item/material sink. And yes, in the future they will be adding more Tiers of items.

    We are 7 months into AA in Korea, and the endgame players are still stuck with T2 items, since the T3 costs way too much to make. It's not like in WoW clones where after a few weeks everyone is running with the same endgame gear. And this gear variety is what i like in AA, because hard work is needed to get close to the best gear. So whoever telling you that crafting is nerfed and dumb is lying.

  • steelwindsteelwind Folsom, CAPosts: 345Member Uncommon

    This thread just proves how people need to do their own research. Item durability was taken out far before release (a year prior?) and it has been RNG ever since onto release. I guess changes made a year ago somehow qualifies as news or gives haters something new to argue about. For anyone who has truly done their research, this topic is beating a dead horse and very old news. Due to the extreme differences in the two approaches, I don't think there is any chance in hell that Trion will be able to change it back nor do I expect XL Games to be willing to develop and support two completely different crafting systems.

    There are perks to the way it is now and you can get lucky and get to t3 in one shot but don't let misinformation paint the picture that RNG = casual or easy mode because it is far from at the moment, just different than the original model.

    Also this thread's title needs to be changed or thread locked because there has been no "crafting nerf" since the game has been released and is just presented to stir up shit from over a year ago. To the uninformed this may appear as a recent change when it is far from.

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden gdfgfPosts: 4,333Member
    Originally posted by steelwind

    This thread just proves how people need to do their own research. Item durability was taken out far before release (a year prior?) and it has been RNG ever since onto release. I guess changes made a year ago somehow qualifies as news or gives haters something new to argue about. For anyone who has truly done their research, this topic is beating a dead horse and very old news. Due to the extreme differences in the two approaches, I don't think there is any chance in hell that Trion will be able to change it back nor do I expect XL Games to be willing to develop and support two completely different crafting systems.

    There are perks to the way it is now and you can get lucky and get to t3 in one shot but don't let misinformation paint the picture that RNG = casual or easy mode because it is far from at the moment, just different than the original model.

    Also this thread's title needs to be changed or thread locked because there has been no "crafting nerf" since the game has been released and is just presented to stir up shit from over a year ago.

     

    To my knowldge it didn't released yet. We want Trion to release the best possible version of the game and thus the crafting system has to be like CBT3 - 4 (with item decay and most possible complexity).

    We want the best Archage as possible and if the best version of feature has been in why take it out ? we want itz enabled like it was planned to release.

     

    Trion you need to release a quality product not a dumped down version !

    If i get in Trions beta i will make this clear on my feedback and everyone should do same.

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  • steelwindsteelwind Folsom, CAPosts: 345Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DarthRaiden
    Originally posted by steelwind

    This thread just proves how people need to do their own research. Item durability was taken out far before release (a year prior?) and it has been RNG ever since onto release. I guess changes made a year ago somehow qualifies as news or gives haters something new to argue about. For anyone who has truly done their research, this topic is beating a dead horse and very old news. Due to the extreme differences in the two approaches, I don't think there is any chance in hell that Trion will be able to change it back nor do I expect XL Games to be willing to develop and support two completely different crafting systems.

    There are perks to the way it is now and you can get lucky and get to t3 in one shot but don't let misinformation paint the picture that RNG = casual or easy mode because it is far from at the moment, just different than the original model.

    Also this thread's title needs to be changed or thread locked because there has been no "crafting nerf" since the game has been released and is just presented to stir up shit from over a year ago.

     

    To my knowldge it didn't released yet. We want Trion to release the best possible version of the game and thus the crafting system has to be like CBT3 - 4 (with item decay and most possible complexity).

    We want the best Archage as possible and if the best version of feature has been in why take it out ? we want itz enabled like it was planned to release.

     

    Trion you need to release a quality product not a dumped down version !

    If i get in Trions beta i will make this clear on my feedback and everyone should do same.

    Trion isn't developing the game, XL Games is and since Trion is only in charge of localization, a change as big as this one I feel is unreasonable to think XL Games will support. Trion has already stated that any suggestions or changes they may forward along to XL Game will likely be implemented for both regions not just NA. A more realistic possibility is for XL Games to change both the KR and NA versions back to item decay as they are just too fundamentally different to expect XL Games to support both a RNGed based system (KR) and item decay (NA).

    Truth be told I would love to see it changed back but I just don't see that happening, that ship has sailed.

  • LlexXLlexX HungaryPosts: 197Member
    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    To my knowldge it didn't released yet. We want Trion to release the best possible version of the game and thus the crafting system has to be like CBT3 - 4 (with item decay and most possible complexity).

    The item decay you are talking about was present only for about 2 weeks during CBT4 (which lasted for 90+ days), it got removed pretty fast after feedbacks from Koreans. And before that crafting was very simple, unlike now.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Sad day for me... I was looking forward to actually have a crafting system to sink my teeth into for once...

     This is the last straw and I am taking it off my favorite game list here on mmorpg.com.  It's not just about the crafting but the confidence the devs have in their vision (or lack of vision).  It's about maximizing to the feedback (aka the complainers).  If you do get the game and one day the vocal crowd yells loud enough, something a player actually cares about might be revmoved/changed as has happened in many games before it.  So might as well skip these guys.

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Won't an RNG crafting system make people want to throw their computers out the window much more than an item durability loss system?
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,275Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Won't an RNG crafting system make people want to throw their computers out the window much more than an item durability loss system?

    it's not the rng part that's bad, that's a good thing. RNG crafting systems allow for truly special creations.  The detail, and depth seems to have been taken out.

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