Originally posted by Iadien there is a linear progression
Are you saying EVE doesn't have linear progression? Because everything about EVE progression is linear.
I have never played eve, I have no idea. lol
Well, name me an MMO without linear progression then.
Entropia Universe
It has linear skill progression locked behind level progression.
Even EQ didn't do this, many of the skills weren't locked behind level progress.
Try again.
If EQ isn't a themepark, what is it?
I think this argument is silly since both of you have different definitions of sandbox/themepark, but if there was some magical scale, I'd put EQ closer to themepark side then sandbox. Does a mmo have to be one or the other or can it just be its own thing? People love slapping labels on everything and all the good/bad that come along with these titles.
Themeparks are still good games, some people just slap the title on a game and dismiss it as trash. There are really good themeparks and really bad sandboxes.
Every game has to have some sort of point or progression. Be it building in Minecraft, going from quest hub to quest hub in WoW, or getting lost in the woods at level one in EQ. The point is hopefully to have fun and make something of yourself.
I think the only true Sandbox is what the devs have to play with. Once they lay down the foundation and set even minor limits on what players can/can't do, we lose control.
I'm hoping EQN isn't a "true" sandbox and more of just an open world adventure that allows a lot of player interaction with the environment and each other.
Originally posted by muffins89 i already don't like that there's a "story". let us make our own for once.
A game without a story isn't a game, you end up with something like Minecraft.
You need a minimum of lore to have any meanginful adventure.
i dislike the term sandbox everyones v ision is different on what it is
some say as long as i can do what i want kill that guild master or rob that npoc and lvl in many different places, if you do look at it that way eq was a sandbox yea sure you couldnt build anything
for some sandbox means building houses cities and forts
to to others as long ads you can affect the world its a sandbox
eq was a sandbox in that the community affected you and you it and you could be hated or loved by npcs
I think a new term is needed cal it a toolbox toolbox means you can create stuff like houses or forts and destroy stuff or
In short toolbox = build stuff
warbox affect the world say you kill lots of gnolls for a while they might die out for a bit and be replaced by.... elementals
Originally posted by Iadien there is a linear progression
Are you saying EVE doesn't have linear progression? Because everything about EVE progression is linear.
I have never played eve, I have no idea. lol
Well, name me an MMO without linear progression then.
Entropia Universe
It has linear skill progression locked behind level progression.
Even EQ didn't do this, many of the skills weren't locked behind level progress.
Try again.
You are confusing progression with skill systems.
In EQ you kill mobs in Highpass Hold, then when you outlevel it you move to Highkeep, then Jaggedpine Forest and so on. Its linear. Then when you get to endgame you do one raid, then when you gear up on that, you move to the next one. Having a big world does not make it a sandbox in any way shape or form.
Sandbox literally means player made content in that the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
Originally posted by Iadien there is a linear progression
Are you saying EVE doesn't have linear progression? Because everything about EVE progression is linear.
I have never played eve, I have no idea. lol
Well, name me an MMO without linear progression then.
Entropia Universe
It has linear skill progression locked behind level progression.Even EQ didn't do this, many of the skills weren't locked behind level progress.Try again.
You are confusing progression with skill systems.
In EQ you kill mobs in Highpass Hold, then when you outlevel it you move to Highkeep, then Jaggedpine Forest and so on. Its linear. Then when you get to endgame you do one raid, then when you gear up on that, you move to the next one. Having a big world does not make it a sandbox in any way shape or form.
Sandbox literally means player made content in that the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
you are 100% correct and its odd so many supposed mmo vets just don't understand this concept.
just think about what the word sandbox means, what do kids do in a sandbox and why is that term used in mmo's?
kids build and destroy things made out of sand in their irl sandbox, players build and destroy things in their mmo "sandbox".
that is the core feature that is necessary to be considered a sandbox mmo. for some reason many many people attribute freedom and choice to being sandbox, there are many themepark games that have a lot of choice and freedom as well, that does not make them sandbox games.
I did play it. It had very clear raid progression. Themepark.
So a game that has raids is now a themepark? Many of the raid mobs were open world raids.
So I guess EVE is a total themepark since it has completely linear ship and skill progression.
Give me a break.
Yes, pretty much every game that has raids is a themepark.
This part isn't true.
You are conflating two different things: The Raid itself which is an encounter (doesn't have to be in an instance) which requires a set group to win and the systems behind the rewards when a group wins.
If there is a raid, let's say open world, and the raiding group got special materials that they could then craft into unique, hard to get items, which could be excellent items but degrade over time, then that would easily fit into a sandbox environment.
What makes a raid a "themepark" raid is having it be part of a set gear progression where people line up, toss the ring and win a prize".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I did play it. It had very clear raid progression. Themepark.
So a game that has raids is now a themepark? Many of the raid mobs were open world raids.
So I guess EVE is a total themepark since it has completely linear ship and skill progression.
Give me a break.
Yes, pretty much every game that has raids is a themepark.
This part isn't true.
You are conflating two different things: The Raid itself which is an encounter (doesn't have to be in an instance) which requires a set group to win and the systems behind the rewards when a group wins.
If there is a raid, let's say open world, and the raiding group got special materials that they could then craft into unique, hard to get items, which could be excellent items but degrade over time, then that would easily fit into a sandbox environment.
What makes a raid a "themepark" raid is having it be part of a set gear progression where people line up, toss the ring and win a prize".
At GDC last week, you also talked about how quickly traditional MMO content is consumed and how that plays into your decision to adopt a philosophy toward emergent gameplay. The question comes up about how that affects the future of raid content -- something that takes a lot of time to design and is usually played by only a portion of the community. What are your thoughts on that?
We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that. We're not talking about the end of raids, the end of this incredibly high-level content. We're talking about changing the nature of the world around it so that there's a lot more to do "in between" expansions. But imagine the entire world as part of the interaction. Imagine seasons changing. Imagine if you're a Druid and you need to literally seek out reagents for your spells or worship your deity in a glade somewhere off in the wilderness, but you don't know where. Or image forests growing back after they're burned to the ground by invading forces. What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it.
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by evilastroOriginally posted by WaterlilyOriginally posted by evilastroI did play it. It had very clear raid progression. Themepark.
So a game that has raids is now a themepark? Many of the raid mobs were open world raids.So I guess EVE is a total themepark since it has completely linear ship and skill progression.Give me a break.Yes, pretty much every game that has raids is a themepark.This part isn't true.
You are conflating two different things: The Raid itself which is an encounter (doesn't have to be in an instance) which requires a set group to win and the systems behind the rewards when a group wins.
If there is a raid, let's say open world, and the raiding group got special materials that they could then craft into unique, hard to get items, which could be excellent items but degrade over time, then that would easily fit into a sandbox environment.
What makes a raid a "themepark" raid is having it be part of a set gear progression where people line up, toss the ring and win a prize".
agreed, i just think people are so used to the current raid progression model that most games have that its hard to think that there could be a different way to do it.
In EQ you kill mobs in Highpass Hold, then when you outlevel it you move to Highkeep, then Jaggedpine Forest and so on.
Actually, you could choose where you went. You didn't go from one zone to the next, you often travelled to very different zones.
Not one person in EQ has ever leveled in the same manner.
And again, by your definition, EVE and Darkfall are themeparks.
The fact is that you've now used multiple definitions to describe themeparks and sandboxes, and have changed your opinion several times and now you're using games like Entropia to keep your definition from going under. No one seems to have a definite answer of what is a sandbox and what is a themepark.
Some people say a game can't be a sandbox without PVP.
Some people say a game can't be a sandbox without destructible terrain.
Some people say a game can't be a sandbox without everything being tradable and craftable.
Some people say a game can't be a sandbox if it has a story behind it.
Well then, I guess not a single game is a sandbox then.
Originally posted by Iadien there is a linear progression
Are you saying EVE doesn't have linear progression? Because everything about EVE progression is linear.
I have never played eve, I have no idea. lol
Well, name me an MMO without linear progression then.
Entropia Universe
It has linear skill progression locked behind level progression.
Even EQ didn't do this, many of the skills weren't locked behind level progress.
Try again.
You are confusing progression with skill systems.
In EQ you kill mobs in Highpass Hold, then when you outlevel it you move to Highkeep, then Jaggedpine Forest and so on. Its linear. Then when you get to endgame you do one raid, then when you gear up on that, you move to the next one. Having a big world does not make it a sandbox in any way shape or form.
Sandbox literally means player made content in that the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
This comment isn't completely accurate. You CAN move to Highkeep after you outlevel Highpass Hold, but you aren't required to. You have the option to move to any zone within your level range and level up there. That was one of the nice things about EQ: You weren't really on the ride from point A to point B like the "new" Themepark games do. EQ, in my opinion, is Themepark-lite.
Sandbox has generally two meanings. The first is the one you listed. The second is basically where the player isn't restricted to a set path. They can select what they want to do, when they want to do it (assuming it is within their range). In that regard, EQ is a Sandbox because you can choose to skip around to zones that fit your need. You don't have to stay in Commonlands, you can choose to go to Qeynos Hills or The Karanas.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
I wouldn't be quick to write it down that it's definitely going to be traditional classes.
It certainly might be, but part of the discussion could be them explaining their take on the class system which could involve switching/combining skills etc.
I really do not understand the argument of the definition of sandbox and theme park. I live in Orlando Florida "Theme park capital of the world" And when I go to Disney World I am not told that I have to ride the rides in a particular order and I know that I have the option of eating at one of the many restaurants or going to any of the many shows that they have. But guess what IT IS STILL A THEME PARK! And it is the reason we use the term theme park about games. Just because I don't have to go to a certain zone for a certain level or have to do a certain dungeon at a certain level does not mean that I have had any input on the game world at all. Disney World gives me the freedom to take joy in everything that they have built and there are few restrictions on when I have to do something. However I am not allowed to build my own ride, my own restaurant, or my own show because it is a theme park not my own sandbox to play in. I know Everquest did not hold your hand like WoW and there was a sense of reward and danger with many things in the game. But you could not create anything in that world other than relationships with other players. It was a great game and I hope that EQ Next is similar in many ways but please dont completely use a word the wrong way for sake of an argument
EQN could be a themepark or a sandbox, no one knows yet. That being said the original Everquest is both a themepark and a sandbox. The problem with those two terms is that they are too losely defined. On one side you have a themepark which people assume just means "linear gameplay". So then you ask yourself, how could EQ possibley be linear, I mean I can go to hundreds of zones around the same level range without being hand held by quest hubs etc. You can use that argument but in the end you can still argue that because your on a level system, there are only so many zones that will allow you to level that have mobs in those ranges. On the other hand you can argue because there are so many zones its more like a sandbox because I have more of a choice and im not funneled in only 1 or 2 zones max.
The point is, the terms Sandbox and Themepark are poor terms to define a game, because everyones opinion of those terms mean different things. I personally don't think there is one true sanbox game in the market. The term Sanbox in my terms means, complete open world without any restrictions, skill progression etc. Once you stick any system like that into a game, it imeediately becomes about progression which can be argued as Themepark because Developers want you to do things in a certain way. Every game on the market right now is a themepark, I am willing to bet that most of you will probably disagree with me, however I know for a fact that every game has progression to some extent. Even the games that most of you play that elude you to open world freedom. I want to stress that "open world" does not mean sandbox. Open world just means you can run around in a larger "zone or room" within the game, it does not mean that you are in a sandbox and can do whatever you want. I had to say this because many individuals get those two terms confused. I say this because every game runs based on a set of rules, but for a sandbox to truely make sense you would need to have a world that has no restrictions. Lets face it though, developers cannot afford to make a game like this because it would be hard for them to project possible income scenarios.
I think one of the reasons Everquest feels like a sandbox is because your skills for everything you did improved over time as you used them. For example when you tried casting a spell or attacking a target you needed to have your skill high enough or you came up short. For example, lets say you got a new spell called Blood Boil which was a conjuration spell. Well in most games you could just cast it, and it would work everytime. However because you decided to focus on one specific spell type, like Life draining skills which were based off alteration you now fizzle everytime you cast the new spell. While this may not sound like a huge issue, it had major impacts depending on the spell line you were using ... Feign Death anyone? The point is, this system made Everquest feel sandboxy because there were elements that could still impact you in certain ways that made your character feel more important or alive. I think Everquest did a very good job implementing a multitude of different mechanics that made the game world feel alive and therefore more sandboxy then the quest hub driven games of today.
Originally posted by dstillrules I really do not understand the argument of the definition of sandbox and theme park.
This is only happening from people 'wishing' that EQN will be a themepark honestly. So for some reason they're arguing what a Sandbox is to delude themselves I guess. Regardless, it's not going to change whatever reality is come August 2nd.
Either SOE is lying and it is a Themepark with some Sandbox elements in it or Smed was telling the truth to all the gaming sites for the last year.
Originally posted by muffins89 i already don't like that there's a "story". let us make our own for once.
A game without a story isn't a game, you end up with something like Minecraft.
You need a minimum of lore to have any meanginful adventure.
Incorrect. A game is anything that has rules, objectives and a goal. Baseball has no story, but it's a game.
SimCity isn't specifically a game. It has no defined goal. It's more of a toy (like a ball or a bat). You can make up your own goals and in turn make your own game. But SimCity in itself is not a game. It's a toy/tool (for creating your own games)
But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation. Could mean just non-instanced open world. Could mean lots of player run content. Could mean a lot of things.
It could easily have a mixture of things you see in themeparks and things you see in sandbox games.
Hell, one guy on here championing for sandbox MMORPGs when asked what a sandbox is he described Vanguard's FFA PVP server to the letter lol.
Most people agree that a "Pure sandbox" is a game with near unlimited freedom and no real goals. Minecraft, Garry's mode, Sim City.... things like that.
We can be sure that EQN is not going to be an EQ skinned Garry's mod. Expect some theme park traits to make it into the game.
But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation.
Yep. It sure is left up to interpretation.
But Sandbox = UGC. Themepark is content that is fed to you and you 'ride' it for amusement. The whole design philosophy behind themepark vs. sandbox is different. These are things that have been known among the community for years. The only reason why it's in question now is because some people refuse to accept the truth. Therefore the very essence of the definition is now in question.
But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation.
Yep. It sure is left up to interpretation.
But Sandbox = UGC. Themepark is content that is fed to you and you 'ride' it for amusement. The whole design philosophy behind themepark vs. sandbox is different. These are things that have been known among the community for years. The only reason why it's in question now is because some people refuse to accept the truth. Therefore the very essence of the definition is now in question.
Yup, but some people wrongly equate sandbox to features and mechanics that don't have to be in a sandbox, or themepark MMO.
Some people think Sandbox means no quests, just mobs standing around in a field waiting to be grinded. That's not true.
Some people think that Sandbox = FFA PVP (Some have gone so far as to say the you can not* have a Sandbox game without FFA PVP). That's not true.
Some people think that Sandbox means Zero instancing (That's not true).
Some people said that class systems are Themepark, and you can only have a sandbox if there's a free-choice point leveling system (again, not true)
Some people think that Sandbox means there won't be any "end game raid mobs". Again, not true at all.
The point is, the term sandbox is a vague word that conveys a lot of ideas, but all of those ideas don't have to be true in a game for a game to be a sandbox.
Some people here are expecting EQN to be Minecraft, with better graphics and FFA PVP, nothing more, nothing less.
I hope the game offers what everyone wants, but I think some people heard the word sandbox, made up a fantasy world in their head and are expecting EQN to match up to that fantasy, when the reality is that it's probably only going to be partially what they're expecting, or more than what they're expecting.
I want to be able to build a house, make or buy furnishings for it. I want my avatar to possibly be robbed, or killed or steal from others and kill them. I want to be able to make and use siege engines or use spells that can effect the lands around me like burning a tree or blowing the side out of a castle. Maybe taming creatures. Participating at different levels in the community I my house was placed and beyond is important as well.
Also maybe a max cap on Hit Points/ Mana/ Strength/stamina/dexterity/wisdom/intelligence/agility set at 100 from start of game. The only way this is effected is by gear stats or spells. This way any leveling put into the game could just be progression of various class skills,spells,resists,crafting.
This sort of system would make everything in the game much easier to balance since spell power doesn't need to go up and up until you have 50 versions of the same spell, only slightly more powerful versions. You maybe have 1 heal spell but you can level that spell power from 25 health healed all the way up to 100 health healed and then thru gear and aa's you might get crit heals of 220. This 220hp heal seems very small compared to most theme park MMO's but without the standard level tied progression of hit points and other stats going up and up, this 220hp would be a full heal on a tank style character that has gear and skills and spells on them that up their HP to 220.
This would also give us great challenges in raids and such without having huge #'s in the 10's of thousands of points being exchanged just to prove how strong your character has become that they have the HP to absorb 15k damage and then do an 8.2k crit .
Things can be theme park and sandbox. This could all work quite well. There could still be danger around the next corner for explorers and raiders and groups that like the dungeon crawl. And we could also have a leveling system, just not one that is tied directly to your characters stats only. We could have houses and deep crafting and gear degradation with players being able to repair it.
There is a way for both types of game and gamer to co-exist in a fun new land. This land is.......EQNext? maybe.....
But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation.
Yep. It sure is left up to interpretation.
But Sandbox = UGC. Themepark is content that is fed to you and you 'ride' it for amusement. The whole design philosophy behind themepark vs. sandbox is different. These are things that have been known among the community for years. The only reason why it's in question now is because some people refuse to accept the truth. Therefore the very essence of the definition is now in question.
Pretty much true.
If EQ:N doesn't at least have player-made non-instanced housing, ships, and castles then Smed is full of crap.
Comments
If EQ isn't a themepark, what is it?
I think this argument is silly since both of you have different definitions of sandbox/themepark, but if there was some magical scale, I'd put EQ closer to themepark side then sandbox. Does a mmo have to be one or the other or can it just be its own thing? People love slapping labels on everything and all the good/bad that come along with these titles.
Themeparks are still good games, some people just slap the title on a game and dismiss it as trash. There are really good themeparks and really bad sandboxes.
Every game has to have some sort of point or progression. Be it building in Minecraft, going from quest hub to quest hub in WoW, or getting lost in the woods at level one in EQ. The point is hopefully to have fun and make something of yourself.
I think the only true Sandbox is what the devs have to play with. Once they lay down the foundation and set even minor limits on what players can/can't do, we lose control.
I'm hoping EQN isn't a "true" sandbox and more of just an open world adventure that allows a lot of player interaction with the environment and each other.
i dislike the term sandbox everyones v ision is different on what it is
some say as long as i can do what i want kill that guild master or rob that npoc and lvl in many different places, if you do look at it that way eq was a sandbox yea sure you couldnt build anything
for some sandbox means building houses cities and forts
to to others as long ads you can affect the world its a sandbox
eq was a sandbox in that the community affected you and you it and you could be hated or loved by npcs
I think a new term is needed cal it a toolbox toolbox means you can create stuff like houses or forts and destroy stuff or
In short toolbox = build stuff
warbox affect the world say you kill lots of gnolls for a while they might die out for a bit and be replaced by.... elementals
You are confusing progression with skill systems.
In EQ you kill mobs in Highpass Hold, then when you outlevel it you move to Highkeep, then Jaggedpine Forest and so on. Its linear. Then when you get to endgame you do one raid, then when you gear up on that, you move to the next one. Having a big world does not make it a sandbox in any way shape or form.
Sandbox literally means player made content in that the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
you are 100% correct and its odd so many supposed mmo vets just don't understand this concept.
just think about what the word sandbox means, what do kids do in a sandbox and why is that term used in mmo's?
kids build and destroy things made out of sand in their irl sandbox, players build and destroy things in their mmo "sandbox".
that is the core feature that is necessary to be considered a sandbox mmo. for some reason many many people attribute freedom and choice to being sandbox, there are many themepark games that have a lot of choice and freedom as well, that does not make them sandbox games.
This part isn't true.
You are conflating two different things: The Raid itself which is an encounter (doesn't have to be in an instance) which requires a set group to win and the systems behind the rewards when a group wins.
If there is a raid, let's say open world, and the raiding group got special materials that they could then craft into unique, hard to get items, which could be excellent items but degrade over time, then that would easily fit into a sandbox environment.
What makes a raid a "themepark" raid is having it be part of a set gear progression where people line up, toss the ring and win a prize".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
such as: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/20/soe-live-2012-john-smedley-on-eq-next-and-soes-future/
At GDC last week, you also talked about how quickly traditional MMO content is consumed and how that plays into your decision to adopt a philosophy toward emergent gameplay. The question comes up about how that affects the future of raid content -- something that takes a lot of time to design and is usually played by only a portion of the community. What are your thoughts on that?
We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that. We're not talking about the end of raids, the end of this incredibly high-level content. We're talking about changing the nature of the world around it so that there's a lot more to do "in between" expansions. But imagine the entire world as part of the interaction. Imagine seasons changing. Imagine if you're a Druid and you need to literally seek out reagents for your spells or worship your deity in a glade somewhere off in the wilderness, but you don't know where. Or image forests growing back after they're burned to the ground by invading forces. What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it.
Yes, pretty much every game that has raids is a themepark.
This part isn't true.
You are conflating two different things: The Raid itself which is an encounter (doesn't have to be in an instance) which requires a set group to win and the systems behind the rewards when a group wins.
If there is a raid, let's say open world, and the raiding group got special materials that they could then craft into unique, hard to get items, which could be excellent items but degrade over time, then that would easily fit into a sandbox environment.
What makes a raid a "themepark" raid is having it be part of a set gear progression where people line up, toss the ring and win a prize".
agreed, i just think people are so used to the current raid progression model that most games have that its hard to think that there could be a different way to do it.
Actually, you could choose where you went. You didn't go from one zone to the next, you often travelled to very different zones.
Not one person in EQ has ever leveled in the same manner.
And again, by your definition, EVE and Darkfall are themeparks.
The fact is that you've now used multiple definitions to describe themeparks and sandboxes, and have changed your opinion several times and now you're using games like Entropia to keep your definition from going under. No one seems to have a definite answer of what is a sandbox and what is a themepark.
Some people say a game can't be a sandbox without PVP.
Some people say a game can't be a sandbox without destructible terrain.
Some people say a game can't be a sandbox without everything being tradable and craftable.
Some people say a game can't be a sandbox if it has a story behind it.
Well then, I guess not a single game is a sandbox then.
Correct, Darkfall is a themepark. It's just less of a themepark than some others...
This comment isn't completely accurate. You CAN move to Highkeep after you outlevel Highpass Hold, but you aren't required to. You have the option to move to any zone within your level range and level up there. That was one of the nice things about EQ: You weren't really on the ride from point A to point B like the "new" Themepark games do. EQ, in my opinion, is Themepark-lite.
Sandbox has generally two meanings. The first is the one you listed. The second is basically where the player isn't restricted to a set path. They can select what they want to do, when they want to do it (assuming it is within their range). In that regard, EQ is a Sandbox because you can choose to skip around to zones that fit your need. You don't have to stay in Commonlands, you can choose to go to Qeynos Hills or The Karanas.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Regarding "class discussion"
I wouldn't be quick to write it down that it's definitely going to be traditional classes.
It certainly might be, but part of the discussion could be them explaining their take on the class system which could involve switching/combining skills etc.
EQN could be a themepark or a sandbox, no one knows yet. That being said the original Everquest is both a themepark and a sandbox. The problem with those two terms is that they are too losely defined. On one side you have a themepark which people assume just means "linear gameplay". So then you ask yourself, how could EQ possibley be linear, I mean I can go to hundreds of zones around the same level range without being hand held by quest hubs etc. You can use that argument but in the end you can still argue that because your on a level system, there are only so many zones that will allow you to level that have mobs in those ranges. On the other hand you can argue because there are so many zones its more like a sandbox because I have more of a choice and im not funneled in only 1 or 2 zones max.
The point is, the terms Sandbox and Themepark are poor terms to define a game, because everyones opinion of those terms mean different things. I personally don't think there is one true sanbox game in the market. The term Sanbox in my terms means, complete open world without any restrictions, skill progression etc. Once you stick any system like that into a game, it imeediately becomes about progression which can be argued as Themepark because Developers want you to do things in a certain way. Every game on the market right now is a themepark, I am willing to bet that most of you will probably disagree with me, however I know for a fact that every game has progression to some extent. Even the games that most of you play that elude you to open world freedom. I want to stress that "open world" does not mean sandbox. Open world just means you can run around in a larger "zone or room" within the game, it does not mean that you are in a sandbox and can do whatever you want. I had to say this because many individuals get those two terms confused. I say this because every game runs based on a set of rules, but for a sandbox to truely make sense you would need to have a world that has no restrictions. Lets face it though, developers cannot afford to make a game like this because it would be hard for them to project possible income scenarios.
I think one of the reasons Everquest feels like a sandbox is because your skills for everything you did improved over time as you used them. For example when you tried casting a spell or attacking a target you needed to have your skill high enough or you came up short. For example, lets say you got a new spell called Blood Boil which was a conjuration spell. Well in most games you could just cast it, and it would work everytime. However because you decided to focus on one specific spell type, like Life draining skills which were based off alteration you now fizzle everytime you cast the new spell. While this may not sound like a huge issue, it had major impacts depending on the spell line you were using ... Feign Death anyone? The point is, this system made Everquest feel sandboxy because there were elements that could still impact you in certain ways that made your character feel more important or alive. I think Everquest did a very good job implementing a multitude of different mechanics that made the game world feel alive and therefore more sandboxy then the quest hub driven games of today.
Yes actually. Yes we do know. It's a Sandbox. That's been confirmed multiple times.
This is only happening from people 'wishing' that EQN will be a themepark honestly. So for some reason they're arguing what a Sandbox is to delude themselves I guess. Regardless, it's not going to change whatever reality is come August 2nd.
Either SOE is lying and it is a Themepark with some Sandbox elements in it or Smed was telling the truth to all the gaming sites for the last year.
/shrug
Incorrect. A game is anything that has rules, objectives and a goal. Baseball has no story, but it's a game.
SimCity isn't specifically a game. It has no defined goal. It's more of a toy (like a ball or a bat). You can make up your own goals and in turn make your own game. But SimCity in itself is not a game. It's a toy/tool (for creating your own games)
You can have a game without a story.
You can have a story without a game.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
ahem....
https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/342745058103160832/photo/1
lol. Nice.
But remember, Sandbox is still open for interpretation. Could mean just non-instanced open world. Could mean lots of player run content. Could mean a lot of things.
It could easily have a mixture of things you see in themeparks and things you see in sandbox games.
Hell, one guy on here championing for sandbox MMORPGs when asked what a sandbox is he described Vanguard's FFA PVP server to the letter lol.
Most people agree that a "Pure sandbox" is a game with near unlimited freedom and no real goals. Minecraft, Garry's mode, Sim City.... things like that.
We can be sure that EQN is not going to be an EQ skinned Garry's mod. Expect some theme park traits to make it into the game.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Maybe he just really hates roller coasters.
Next week he'll link to the bumper cars with a big thumbs up.
Yep. It sure is left up to interpretation.
But Sandbox = UGC. Themepark is content that is fed to you and you 'ride' it for amusement. The whole design philosophy behind themepark vs. sandbox is different. These are things that have been known among the community for years. The only reason why it's in question now is because some people refuse to accept the truth. Therefore the very essence of the definition is now in question.
Yup, but some people wrongly equate sandbox to features and mechanics that don't have to be in a sandbox, or themepark MMO.
Some people think Sandbox means no quests, just mobs standing around in a field waiting to be grinded. That's not true.
Some people think that Sandbox = FFA PVP (Some have gone so far as to say the you can not* have a Sandbox game without FFA PVP). That's not true.
Some people think that Sandbox means Zero instancing (That's not true).
Some people said that class systems are Themepark, and you can only have a sandbox if there's a free-choice point leveling system (again, not true)
Some people think that Sandbox means there won't be any "end game raid mobs". Again, not true at all.
The point is, the term sandbox is a vague word that conveys a lot of ideas, but all of those ideas don't have to be true in a game for a game to be a sandbox.
Some people here are expecting EQN to be Minecraft, with better graphics and FFA PVP, nothing more, nothing less.
I hope the game offers what everyone wants, but I think some people heard the word sandbox, made up a fantasy world in their head and are expecting EQN to match up to that fantasy, when the reality is that it's probably only going to be partially what they're expecting, or more than what they're expecting.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
I hope EQ Next is
a sandbox first.
I want to be able to build a house, make or buy furnishings for it. I want my avatar to possibly be robbed, or killed or steal from others and kill them. I want to be able to make and use siege engines or use spells that can effect the lands around me like burning a tree or blowing the side out of a castle. Maybe taming creatures. Participating at different levels in the community I my house was placed and beyond is important as well.
Also maybe a max cap on Hit Points/ Mana/ Strength/stamina/dexterity/wisdom/intelligence/agility set at 100 from start of game. The only way this is effected is by gear stats or spells. This way any leveling put into the game could just be progression of various class skills,spells,resists,crafting.
This sort of system would make everything in the game much easier to balance since spell power doesn't need to go up and up until you have 50 versions of the same spell, only slightly more powerful versions. You maybe have 1 heal spell but you can level that spell power from 25 health healed all the way up to 100 health healed and then thru gear and aa's you might get crit heals of 220. This 220hp heal seems very small compared to most theme park MMO's but without the standard level tied progression of hit points and other stats going up and up, this 220hp would be a full heal on a tank style character that has gear and skills and spells on them that up their HP to 220.
This would also give us great challenges in raids and such without having huge #'s in the 10's of thousands of points being exchanged just to prove how strong your character has become that they have the HP to absorb 15k damage and then do an 8.2k crit .
Things can be theme park and sandbox. This could all work quite well. There could still be danger around the next corner for explorers and raiders and groups that like the dungeon crawl. And we could also have a leveling system, just not one that is tied directly to your characters stats only. We could have houses and deep crafting and gear degradation with players being able to repair it.
There is a way for both types of game and gamer to co-exist in a fun new land. This land is.......EQNext? maybe.....
Pretty much true.
If EQ:N doesn't at least have player-made non-instanced housing, ships, and castles then Smed is full of crap.
Themepark
SW:ToR
EQ 2, WoW, etc.
Eq 1
... big gap
(SandPark)
ArcheAge, Black Desert, Pathfinder, etc.
... big gap
Ultima Online
Eve
... big gap
Wurm Online
Minecraft
.. big gap
Second Life
Sandbox