Do we really have to have a poll. I think it's been known for awhile now that everyone wants a PvE themepark with PvP optional...Just look at how many people play each type of those games. There's a reason why well over 50% of the MMO community is subscribed to WoW...still.
Well if the market shows anything, its that themeparks are a disaster and a money sink and nobody wants them for more than a month.
Yet that's all we seem to get. Wonder why that is? Arm chair economy aside.
Because the people making the games now (publishers) have ZERO understanding of the genre and just think "If we pump enough money into it and hire the right people, we can make a WoW that'll topple WoW!"
Well if the market shows anything, its that themeparks are a disaster and a money sink and nobody wants them for more than a month.
Really? Even a disaster like TOR has a much bigger audience than Eve .. the biggest sandbox.
And tell me .. if wow is a disaster, how many companies would love to have a disaster like that?
Er, no it doesn't. And WoW is an outlier.
TOR crashed and burned so hard the two founders of Bioware quit their company, the staff on the game got halved, their publisher went bankrupt, EA stock dropped like a rock, and they had to rush FTP just to stave off early death. No, Eve has 500k paying subscribers and has been steadily growing since it launched. TOR, off the back of the biggest scifi IP and the biggest marketing campaign in MMO history... sold a bunch of boxes and then collapsed in on itself, because that model cannot sustain itself.
It's the same thing that happened to all WoW style themepark games.
Well if the market shows anything, its that themeparks are a disaster and a money sink and nobody wants them for more than a month.
Yet that's all we seem to get. Wonder why that is? Arm chair economy aside.
Because the people making the games now (publishers) have ZERO understanding of the genre and just think "If we pump enough money into it and hire the right people, we can make a WoW that'll topple WoW!"
The people with sense are making niche MMOs.
Not enough money in Niche for a AAA game to cover the cost of creation. In todays market Eve would have crapped out.
Well if the market shows anything, its that themeparks are a disaster and a money sink and nobody wants them for more than a month.
Yet that's all we seem to get. Wonder why that is? Arm chair economy aside.
Because the people making the games now (publishers) have ZERO understanding of the genre and just think "If we pump enough money into it and hire the right people, we can make a WoW that'll topple WoW!"
The people with sense are making niche MMOs.
Exactly the point I was making. They are niche. Does that mean they aren't good? Of course not. The issue of whether the populace in general don't know what's good for them is another thread entirely, and one that would be more guess work than any so far.
Well if the market shows anything, its that themeparks are a disaster and a money sink and nobody wants them for more than a month.
Yet that's all we seem to get. Wonder why that is? Arm chair economy aside.
Because the people making the games now (publishers) have ZERO understanding of the genre and just think "If we pump enough money into it and hire the right people, we can make a WoW that'll topple WoW!"
The people with sense are making niche MMOs.
Exactly the point I was making. They are niche. Does that mean they aren't good? Of course not. The issue of whether the populace in general don't know what's good for them is another thread entirely, and one that would be more guess work than any so far.
All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.
A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.
All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.
A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.
Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic unless it is a tiny part of the population. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo
It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.
Well if the market shows anything, its that themeparks are a disaster and a money sink and nobody wants them for more than a month.
Yet that's all we seem to get. Wonder why that is? Arm chair economy aside.
Because the people making the games now (publishers) have ZERO understanding of the genre and just think "If we pump enough money into it and hire the right people, we can make a WoW that'll topple WoW!"
The people with sense are making niche MMOs.
Exactly the point I was making. They are niche. Does that mean they aren't good? Of course not. The issue of whether the populace in general don't know what's good for them is another thread entirely, and one that would be more guess work than any so far.
All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.
A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.
I like how the call of the sandboxer is Themeparks do not retain players...while they do not meantion that Sandbox games can not get players.
All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.
A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.
Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo
It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.
Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.
Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.
It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.
All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.
A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.
Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo
It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.
Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.
Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.
It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.
Then that audience better be ready for the budget that those games can get together to make the game. Instead of the masses that whine about the games lacking here. If you not get the masses to play you do not get the massive amount of capital to make the game. It is a double edge sword.
Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.
Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.
It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.
I don't disagree with that. Look at many here are venting about not having a good mmo to play. Yes the ones out there have players but nothing really massive.
WoW created what some call the 'mainstream' while games like EvE are called 'niche' for garnering a smaller portion of gamers.
Add to this mess that games are no longer made (by most) for gamers but for the larger percentage of what they wish to tap, but not being able to please everyone.
The more gamers there are, the more varied will be the wants and desires of each, segregating groups that will have specific definitions for their 'perfect' game. FFA-PvP sandbox, PvP-PvE w/consentual PvP, PvE themepark with no gear grind/with gear grind etc..it'll never end.
Hense the whole PVP gear, as a PVP spec, in PVP areas comment
Translation:
PVE Spec can't use PVP gear
Because you aren't a PVP spec, you can't be in a PVP area as a PVE spec
Because you are a PVP spec, you can't be in a PVE area as a PVP spec.
It's the easiest way to balance a game around PVP and PVE. If everyone has access to a PVE Spec and a separate PVP spec, the only thing you need to do is balance the PVP spec for PVP, and the PVE spec for PVE since they will never collide.
You're talking if there are pvp area, that's not 100% pve content were pvp is forced in those ereas, for example: 1 vs 1, battlegrounds, guild vs guild this is optional when you have to flag yourself for those types of pvp.
Many games tried to make pve with pvp zones, that don't work well, they often screwing things up for both pvp and pve, and most of the time pve get's to be screwed more, this also make developers to spend time on coding and maintainig two different systems, for gear, currancy, abilities and what not just to keep pvpers happy, plus it adds a lot more bugs to deal with, instead developers could spent no time on maintaining two systems and more time to maintaint one system and develop more content.
If you want pvp it has to be saparated from pve by a different server then pvp gear and setings are logic.
If it is pve with optional pvp it has to have same pve gear and setings for both pve and pvp.
All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.
A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.
Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo
It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.
Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.
Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.
It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.
It is nice that you understand marketing so well. Maybe you should try working for a game company and see how your attitude floats there. You might have a real surprise coming up for ya. You can think all your little intricate thoughts about why things are the way they are and you are more than likely wrong. WHY? Games are about fun, who cares what they are. If people have fun, then they will play. If they don't have fun, there is no one to play the game. That is all it is. Who cares what style game it is.
In TERA's forecast today I see a slight leaning to PvE over PvP.
PvE DOMINATES!
PvP looses! PvP looses!
I like posts like that. In Tera PvP is completely without any meaning or purpose. It is just another themepark with pve content and the pvp on toggle as afterthought... no, and i repeat not one pvp mechanic. It is a pve game. It is not a pvp game. And don't base pvp, or pvp player on some defunct pvp server at themepark pve games.
With other words, if you would play Tera (as a pvp player) i wouldn't care about pve or pvp. And maybe even choose the pve server. (because the pvp part of Tera is ridiculous)
It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.
That is right.
That is why games like WOW, LoL, WoT, D3, Maple Stories ... are highly successful.
They know not to go for sandbox, and often heavily instanced gameplay for their huge audience.
WoW and Maplestory are the only MMOs in your examples and both are pretty old.
LoL is a PVP-based game in the MOBA genre, built by the people who pretty much cemented the genre in the Warcraft 3 map DotA. Comparing this to an MMO is like comparing steamed broccoli to a cheeseburger.
World of Tanks while not a MMO has territory control elements ergo it does have at least one sandbox element (you have an effect on the world in clan wars).
My vote is sandbox PvE but could of just as easily been sandbox both, if the PvP is consensual like it was in Asheron's Call. I feel that is the best of both worlds for both crowds.
Also my definition of sandbox is slightly more robust then most because for me sandbox means open world (non instanced, Zoning optional) non linear, non-quest grinding, different avenues to progress style of an MMO so to me Asheron's Call is just as much a sandbox as Eve is.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Comments
This poll is not deciding anything.
The market does.
Well if the market shows anything, its that themeparks are a disaster and a money sink and nobody wants them for more than a month.
Yet that's all we seem to get. Wonder why that is? Arm chair economy aside.
Really? Even a disaster like TOR has a much bigger audience than Eve .. the biggest sandbox.
And tell me .. if wow is a disaster, how many companies would love to have a disaster like that?
By that same token 16 and pregnant is in its 4th season and shows like Firefly got cut. This world promotes non-values if you haven't noticed.
Because the people making the games now (publishers) have ZERO understanding of the genre and just think "If we pump enough money into it and hire the right people, we can make a WoW that'll topple WoW!"
The people with sense are making niche MMOs.
Er, no it doesn't. And WoW is an outlier.
TOR crashed and burned so hard the two founders of Bioware quit their company, the staff on the game got halved, their publisher went bankrupt, EA stock dropped like a rock, and they had to rush FTP just to stave off early death. No, Eve has 500k paying subscribers and has been steadily growing since it launched. TOR, off the back of the biggest scifi IP and the biggest marketing campaign in MMO history... sold a bunch of boxes and then collapsed in on itself, because that model cannot sustain itself.
It's the same thing that happened to all WoW style themepark games.
Not enough money in Niche for a AAA game to cover the cost of creation. In todays market Eve would have crapped out.
Exactly the point I was making. They are niche. Does that mean they aren't good? Of course not. The issue of whether the populace in general don't know what's good for them is another thread entirely, and one that would be more guess work than any so far.
All successful MMOs fill a niche. That's how business generally works. WoW has a monopoly on WoW players, no one is going to pry that away. Other MMOs carve out a niche and cater to that niche. Maybe its a big niche or a small niche, but there will never be a one size fit all MMO outside of WoW, which was a fluke and is an outlier.
A key part to being a niche is realizing you're niche. Themeparks could technically be successful as a niche, but that game design model doesn't sustain itself because it needs a massive marketing and development budget to replace the content people burn through, and keep players coming in. Themeparks don't retain players. So its hard to be both niche, and a themepark. It's possible, but the WoWclones/themeparks we've been getting for 8 years have all had budgets they require millions of subs to sustain.
Then you'd have to define how many players comprise a 'niche'. They certainly don't use that term in marketing to target a certain group or demographic unless it is a tiny part of the population. Whether a game, be it sandbox or themepark retains players is irrelevant to whether it is niche. imo
It is the game's end product and whether it satisfies what the players wanted in that game to begin with. Aside from the technical issues like bugs, lag, compatibility issues..the greatest letdown in alot of them are the high expectations of the players.
I like how the call of the sandboxer is Themeparks do not retain players...while they do not meantion that Sandbox games can not get players.
Standards in terms of MMOs have never been lower. Most of the disappointment nowadays is a product of the insanely inflated marketing schemes that promise the world.
Themeparks generally need a big budget to work at all, and that means publishers, and that means a broken game because publishers don't understand the market at all. The corporate structure gets in the way of actually making the product.
It's all a big bloody mess. The successful games know their audience, are transparent, and shoot for that audience.
Then that audience better be ready for the budget that those games can get together to make the game. Instead of the masses that whine about the games lacking here. If you not get the masses to play you do not get the massive amount of capital to make the game. It is a double edge sword.
I don't disagree with that. Look at many here are venting about not having a good mmo to play. Yes the ones out there have players but nothing really massive.
WoW created what some call the 'mainstream' while games like EvE are called 'niche' for garnering a smaller portion of gamers.
Add to this mess that games are no longer made (by most) for gamers but for the larger percentage of what they wish to tap, but not being able to please everyone.
The more gamers there are, the more varied will be the wants and desires of each, segregating groups that will have specific definitions for their 'perfect' game. FFA-PvP sandbox, PvP-PvE w/consentual PvP, PvE themepark with no gear grind/with gear grind etc..it'll never end.
You're talking if there are pvp area, that's not 100% pve content were pvp is forced in those ereas, for example: 1 vs 1, battlegrounds, guild vs guild this is optional when you have to flag yourself for those types of pvp.
Many games tried to make pve with pvp zones, that don't work well, they often screwing things up for both pvp and pve, and most of the time pve get's to be screwed more, this also make developers to spend time on coding and maintainig two different systems, for gear, currancy, abilities and what not just to keep pvpers happy, plus it adds a lot more bugs to deal with, instead developers could spent no time on maintaining two systems and more time to maintaint one system and develop more content.
If you want pvp it has to be saparated from pve by a different server then pvp gear and setings are logic.
If it is pve with optional pvp it has to have same pve gear and setings for both pve and pvp.
That is right.
That is why games like WOW, LoL, WoT, D3, Maple Stories ... are highly successful.
They know not to go for sandbox, and often heavily instanced gameplay for their huge audience.
It is nice that you understand marketing so well. Maybe you should try working for a game company and see how your attitude floats there. You might have a real surprise coming up for ya. You can think all your little intricate thoughts about why things are the way they are and you are more than likely wrong. WHY? Games are about fun, who cares what they are. If people have fun, then they will play. If they don't have fun, there is no one to play the game. That is all it is. Who cares what style game it is.
I like posts like that. In Tera PvP is completely without any meaning or purpose. It is just another themepark with pve content and the pvp on toggle as afterthought... no, and i repeat not one pvp mechanic. It is a pve game. It is not a pvp game. And don't base pvp, or pvp player on some defunct pvp server at themepark pve games.
With other words, if you would play Tera (as a pvp player) i wouldn't care about pve or pvp. And maybe even choose the pve server. (because the pvp part of Tera is ridiculous)
WoW and Maplestory are the only MMOs in your examples and both are pretty old.
LoL is a PVP-based game in the MOBA genre, built by the people who pretty much cemented the genre in the Warcraft 3 map DotA. Comparing this to an MMO is like comparing steamed broccoli to a cheeseburger.
World of Tanks while not a MMO has territory control elements ergo it does have at least one sandbox element (you have an effect on the world in clan wars).
And what about Hybrid sandpark like ArcheAge or Age Of Wushu.
Sandpark PVE
Sandpark PVP should be added to your poll please.
I'll take sandpark PVE with PVP servers as an option.
My vote is sandbox PvE but could of just as easily been sandbox both, if the PvP is consensual like it was in Asheron's Call. I feel that is the best of both worlds for both crowds.
Also my definition of sandbox is slightly more robust then most because for me sandbox means open world (non instanced, Zoning optional) non linear, non-quest grinding, different avenues to progress style of an MMO so to me Asheron's Call is just as much a sandbox as Eve is.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Genuinely curious: what PvE content is there in Eve?
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance