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[Column] General: PvP For All

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,583MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

PvP should be for everyone but, sadly, often those who are new to PvP or who have chosen other paths in an MMO feel excluded from what could be a great game aspect. In our latest Social Hub column, we take a look at ways to bring in potential PvPers. Read on!

I'm not really much of a PvPer, but I could be. There are many aspects I enjoy, like helping my friends out in competition and going up against groups together. Yet, in many games, more often than not, there are barriers to my participation and success. I think there are more out there like myself, and among PvPers, maybe we just get a bad rap, but there are things we can all do to create a more fun environment. I don't want to solo, and I prefer a system where I can attack someone and flag myself rather than a completely open one. One, it's a little friendlier to players in general, because it gives everyone a choice whether to open up to being attacked or to voluntarily flag themselves. PvP on one's own terms isn't necessarily a bad thing for competition or community cohesiveness.

Read more of Christina Gonzalez's The Social Hub: PvP for All.

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Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

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Comments

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,401Member Uncommon

    This is my dream game:

    Server 1: PvE

    Server 2: PvE with Battlegrounds

    Server 3: WORLD PVP - NO BATTLEGROUNDS or DEDICATED PANSY INSTANCES

    ---
     
     
    Ultimately, I like World PvP with meaning...   with proper sanctions that will protect lowbies from being crushed by max levelers etc.
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,262Member Uncommon

    Nice write.

     

    Practice, practice, practice. You may loss 500 times, but take pleasure and pride in learning. Once you got it, you got it. We've all been there. That 500 number came from the number of matches it took for me to "not be bad" in WoW arenas. I never looked back from there.

     

    One more thing, consider the message, not the way it's delivered. If a person say "Wtf you a##hat, CC NEXT TINME!@, or "Hey next time try to CC, it helps." The message is the same, and it's delivered differently by everyone.

     

     

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Until the mentality of PvP'ers change from one of being an ass hat the majority of the time to one that is as accommodating as the PvE'er then I'll stick with PvE.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • BattlerockBattlerock Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,393Member
    I pvp alot and I explore alot. I find pvp to be like my golf game. The more I play the better I am. I gave up golfing a fews years back when I peaked at playing 7 days a week. I put up the best scores I had ever had and when I realized what it took to stay at that level I just quit cold turkey. Pvp in mmorpgs is alot like that as well. If you put the time in you can be real good, but if not get ready to be steam rolled. Being steam rolled is not fun, and dedicating all my free time to pvp practice is not fun either. So it's back to the ol explorers trail for me where I can count on discovering something to keep me busy.
  • ZagavaVonnZagavaVonn Akron, OHPosts: 249Member Uncommon

    I really support the idea of 'flagged' PvP, so you kinda get 3 kinds of combat:

    1) creature / non-faction combat

    2) NPC / factional combat

    3) PvP / full pvp + factional combat

    The first one allows you to shoot a grue, the next one let's you shoot Hated Faction NPCs and a grue, the third flag let's you shoot other players / factions you're declared against plus a couple of grues for good measure. SWG eventually transitioned to something similar, inmitially they had a "shoot enough NPC stormtroopers and you get flagged as a pvp combatant" which didn't go over too well when low-level players suddenly became overt PvP combatants and got ganked. So intentionally declaring /flagging yourself with a commandline switch I think is still the fairest way to avoid grief (well, too much griefing?)

     

  • ravencultravencult athensPosts: 17Member
    NIce article.I 100% agree, even if i rage sometimes myself in bgs/minigames (cant help it :D)
  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Guild Wars 2. You're given the choice of:

    1. Cooperative PvE with no PvP whatsoever.

    2. Competitive PvP, structured arena style with normalized gear and stats. Skill vs skill, not gear vs. gear.

    3. Open world PvP in the WvW maps. You're bumped up to max level stat wise, but your gear is still at your actual level. Still, you have a fighting chance regardless.

     

    PvP when I choose to PvP is indeed the best system.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Pvp for everyone....but me thanks. :)

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • lugallugal Escondido, CAPosts: 636Member Uncommon
    Maybe I missed it, but she assumes pvpers need to be more encouraging and tolerant of non pvpersn what about freedom of choice? Why must pvpers endure the whinning and forum rants when a pver chose a game or server type that alows then to be pvp'd?
    When I played WoW, my guild encouraged pvp. As a officer of the guild, I took the time to help the druids improve their game. It worked. But when I had a girl who refused to participate and was quick to rage when pvp'd, she was the weak link in our healing rotation. She chose a pvp server, but she cried non stop about it and had a ton of excuses for her choice.
    People need to learn to accept that they have to accomodate not only other less skilled players, but server rule sets as well. Play knowing that you will be forced to engage in things you don't like, don't play that game.

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    The reviewer has a mishapen head
    Which means his opinion is skewed
    ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley

  • JeyhuJeyhu Ottawa, ONPosts: 84Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Until the mentality of PvP'ers change from one of being an ass hat the majority of the time to one that is as accommodating as the PvE'er then I'll stick with PvE.

    See this is what the problem is.  Not all PvP'ers are ass hats, in fact many of them are friendly, sociable and have great team work.  Of course you'll get the ass hats who roll FOTM, or talk smack when they get 2v1 etc, but that's because it's competitive.  Ever watch a sports game?  Players talk smack to each other all the time because of the nature of the game.

    I like how you put all PvE'ers on some sort of pedestal and they can do no wrong.  In fact I've had more problems with PvE'ers in dungeons and raids then I've ever had with PvPers.  I don't get kicked out of PvP because my "gear score" is 10 points off what the group leader thinks we need.  If you want to generalize I can say that PvE players are more prone to being the ass hats.  Don't believe me?  Ask Tanks and Healers who get crapped on a lot for "screwing up" even when it's not their fault.  Not to mention the raiding mentality of some guilds makes them  think they are some sort of super secret elite special forces society.

    Both styles of game play has their fair share of asshats.  Don't be one by generalizing it.

  • Attend4455Attend4455 BirminghamPosts: 161Member
    despite EvE's reputation for being a refuge for vicious antisocial types most of the pvp oriented players I have met there have been friendly and helpful.

    I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I cannot imagine a PvP game that would be improved by having me log into it.

  • draguleadragulea whateverPosts: 249Member

    Lemme start by saying there's nothing wrong with PvP - this coming from a true "carebear" :) It's another way of playing and experiencing the game - IF DONE RIGHT. However: 

     

    1. there's a big difference between PvP and PK/griefing - and a very thin line between them; sadly, a lot of players cross it (way to often). I personally have no problem with PvP as long as it's limited or contained to the the crowd it caters to: duels, arenas, wars and such are fine. But once these limits are off, things usually go downhill. Fast. And that's because:

     

    - some players have no honour. As in no moral conduct code. You can't expect to become people's champion by using low "tactics": killing low lvl players, hiding and killing from distance while the target is busy fighting mobs, attacking when the opponent has very little hp, multiple ppl attacking the same guy, etc. Just because you can do certain things doesn't mean you have to. There's no skill involved in that, there's no honour, ultimately, there's no point - apart from ruining other's gaming experience.

     

     - sadly all that is possible because the game allows it. Unfortunately some "devs" apparently use only half of their brain - and it's not even their better half. In order for a MMO to become popular it needs to cater to both type of players: PvE fans and PvPers. When you mix the 2, you'd better be extra careful 'cause that is the perfect recipe for disaster. If you can't come up with some clever ways to keep both sides happy, better keep 'em separated: for ex. don't send PvErs in PvP maps for mandatory quests; don't make your world open PvP - open separate servers or channels instead. 

     

     

    2. PvE and PvP are 2 completely different things. Ok, in some games the difference may not be evident (depending on the game's mechanics, class/skill systems, etc), but just because you're an awesome PvPer doesn't mean you'll also be the ultimate boss killer or the best raider around. And vice versa. And please use some common sense and don't put your life in the hands of complete strangers - that's why randomly formed groups suck so bad.  

     
  • RinnaRinna Las Vegas, NVPosts: 388Member
    I don't like dueling other players or PVP, it's not fun to me at all. I like helping other players. I don't even enjoy healing in PVP. I don't understand why people like it.

    No bitchers.

  • WeeMadAggieWeeMadAggie Winnipeg, MBPosts: 2Member

    That sums it entirely up for me. 

    While most of my (few, but awesome) PVP acquaintances bemoan the fact that open world PVP is all but extinct in MMOs, there are only three ways to achieve that:

    1) Have it on dedicated servers 

    2) Inflict it on players who don't want to PVP.

    3) Make an MMO that is all about PVP.

    While the flag/unflag option seems to be favoured, I generally dislike it. Either the game doesn't have an option against accidentally unflagging or it does and is off by default and I have to go digging for it after some jerk successfully click-baited me.

    While I'm sure there are dedicated PVP players who are nice, non-griefing people, those are not the ones I, as a PVEer come into contact with in game. Which might go a ways to explain why one community holds such general disdain for the other.

    My over all preference is for MMOs to stop trying to sit on two chairs. Make PVP bloodfests for those that want that and make PVE adventures for me and mine. There are few things in MMOs, that make me as disgusted as PVE combat being altered because of PVP concerns.

     

    You could argue that every MMO currently on the market is thus aimed at the PVP crowd (possibly with DDO and EQ2 as exceptions?) and maybe you are right (again my handful of PVP friends would argue this vehemently). In which case my frustration with PVP overlapping, interfering or disrupting my gameplay is nonsensical because I'm playing a game that's supposed to be PVP-friendly. But perhaps it also makes it understandable why I'm so weary of all things PVP?

     

  • ZagavaVonnZagavaVonn Akron, OHPosts: 249Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Attend4455
    despite EvE's reputation for being a refuge for vicious antisocial types most of the pvp oriented players I have met there have been friendly and helpful.

    EVE was really smart the way they made '10' space accessible to everyone without penalty or threat of being PKed, and '0' space being absolutely lethal, and the various systems descending form 9-1 being increasingly gank-y the lower the number of the system. While they made the most dangerous systems full of awesome resources,  there's still safer (albeit slower, less dangerous) ways of getting good stuff... So pretty cunning design, all in all. That said I hate PvP in EVE, the non-FPS aspect really snore-bores me, I'd rather run through a spreadsheet or write something in visual basic then watch / participate in an EVE 'battle', a spreadsheet in some ways is more exciting...

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member

    flagged pvp worked exceptionally well in SWGpreNGE, there's no reason it cannot work now.

     

    and if not that then break it off into continents with only PvE and the other with OWPvP.

     

    and finally, you could just have dedicated servers for each kind.

     

    there's lots of ways to resolve this.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • AlomarAlomar Middle Earth, NJPosts: 446Member Uncommon

    I'm a hardcore pvper myself who stays away from any game without it most of the time, that being said this was a decent read. I have developed a fondness for what many people call zerging and mindless pvp, which is the open world large-scale pvp that only a few games really deliver on (GW2 is not one of them being that it's instanced).

     

    I have found that even those large accept all zerg-like guilds aren't successful most the time and that alliances, coordination, scouting, preparation, raid/grp compositions, resource collection etc. are all needed. The purpose of playing video games for me is the engage in a fantasy world to play the most realistic type of fighting against other people, not pre-programmed and predictable npc's.

     

    Therefore, instanced and small scale arena and battleground settings aren't a realistic form of real-world interpretations of pvp (unless you were a Roman gladiator aka a slave, and who goes into a video game wanting to play as a slave lol?).

     

    I cherish mmo pvp as I have since I started a the age of 9, 13 years ago. I've honed my skills at every opportunity and look forward to the wave of upcoming mmo's incorporating some type of open world pvp  to engage in my as realistic as possible "war-like" fantasies.

    Dozens of MMO's, RTS's, FPS's, etc.

  • CullandCulland Hunter River, PEPosts: 22Member

    Like all things there are two sides to the discussion.

    As an active pvper and a person that loves the competitive side of the game, I do not complain about those that are not as good, learning, pulling their weight. If they are out there trying, then they are getting better. If they are getting better then everyone in the game is getting better and thus the game overall will be a better game down the road.

    My issue with the 'carebears' has nothing at all to do with their performance, it is not like I do not remember once being a clicking for-the-realmer myself. My issue is the constant lowering of the bar to fit the needs of this player base. Rather then encourage them to get better by providing a welcoming competitive environment, games like GW2 make every effort to dumb the play down to where not only is true competition removed, it actually hinders everyone from becoming better players.  Like in life, lowering the bar so that everyone can reach it does not always create the most progressive communities.

  • brickleulbrickleul timisoaraPosts: 16Member

    I'm a carebear, I like PvE a lot, I like crafting I like exploring and I don't like PvP and still the only game I'm still playing is EVE and playing it by 9 years , I also played LOTRO ,D3, GW, Gw2 ,TSW,L2,  and many others , even if I don't like PVP I consider is a necessary evil , it gives some flavour to the game , having only PvE makes the game to previsible and at a point will become boring.  

    There is nothing interesting in arenas , dedicates server for PVP , WvW if there is no open world PvP , this is the think that makes a game more exciting , imprevisble, fun entertaining and why not even frustraiting ....but never makes a game boring

     
  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd. Hell, CAPosts: 817Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Until the mentality of PvP'ers change from one of being an ass hat the majority of the time to one that is as accommodating as the PvE'er then I'll stick with PvE.

    I'm sure people thought Ghengis Khan was an asshat back in his day or any other ruler or general that used force and violence to achieve their particular goals of conquest or domination. Face it, we don't play "Knitting Online". All of these games are based around violence and sure they have high fantasy canon but the core of these games are based on our bloody and tragic or glorious "considering which end of the blade you happen to be on" past history as humans.

     

    It is in our nature to kill one another wether it be for political, religious, greed or any other number of driving motivators. Some of our finest achievements as humans were a by product of us killing one another. Penicillin is the best example that comes to mind. Discovered and developed in WW1 to combat infection from wounds on the battlefield. It has saved more lives than all the people killed in all wars combined.

     

    Back to topic. To put it bluntly we are just now entering into the technology with computers and gaming that this is actually viable in an mmo format. None and I mean none of the existing sandbox pvp mmos out there have been done correctly.

     

    I am eagerly awaiting the info around EQNext and hopefully they finally get it right.

     
     
  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Until the mentality of PvP'ers change from one of being an ass hat the majority of the time to one that is as accommodating as the PvE'er then I'll stick with PvE.

     

    Almost every pvp enthusiast I know is a generally nice person as the average goes.

    They often get a lot of hate thrown at them when they attack another player though.  That player takes the attack as something personal and thinks the attacker is some kind of "asshat" for attacking them.  A simple "gg" "good fight" or "aah ya got me" would suffice but I usually see whining, name calling, and general bickering instead.  Of course this only serves to encourage the attacker to name call, insult, and bicker right back.

    Blame the "PVP" players all you like, but the fact of the matter is, you have no real evidence they are less civil than the rest of the gaming community.  They just like to attack other players, and other players often like to get upset when they get attacked.

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Saxx0n
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Until the mentality of PvP'ers change from one of being an ass hat the majority of the time to one that is as accommodating as the PvE'er then I'll stick with PvE.

    I'm sure people thought Ghengis Khan was an asshat back in his day or any other ruler or general that used force and violence to achieve their particular goals of conquest or domination. Face it, we don't play "Knitting Online". All of these games are based around violence and sure they have high fantasy canon but the core of these games are based on our bloody and tragic or glorious "considering which end of the blade you happen to be on" past history as humans.

     

    It is in our nature to kill one another wether it be for political, religious, greed or any other number of driving motivators. Some of our finest achievements as humans were a by product of us killing one another. Penicillin is the best example that comes to mind. Discovered and developed in WW1 to combat infection from wounds on the battlefield. It has saved more lives than all the people killed in all wars combined.

     

    Back to topic. To put it bluntly we are just now entering into the technology with computers and gaming that this is actually viable in an mmo format. None and I mean none of the existing sandbox pvp mmos out there have been done correctly.

     

    I am eagerly awaiting the info around EQNext and hopefully they get it right finally.

     

     

    There's a difference between warfare and indiscriminate murder.  There's no significant culture, past or present, that's turned a completely blind eye to wanton murder.  There's always been some type of societal sanction for such acts, whether that's a blood feud, a weregeld, prison, execution, whatever.

    In real life, murderers don't respawn after they are executed.  Kind of puts a damper on their bloodlust, no?

    That's the part that most games are missing - real sanctions for blatant sociopathic behavior.  If a game's ruleset either controlled it similar to the way "real life" does, or gave players the tools to control it, much of the asshattery would be curtailed, and a game's world would seem more "realistic".

    That's the problem with a lot of PvP systems.  Too many open PvP games allow the PvPer to inflict his/her chosen style of gameplay upon others, whether they want it or not.  That's why most games do not allow it - because they do not want players to be able to adversely impact the play of another.

    Given the antics of some anti-social internet tough guys, that's probably a pretty sound decision.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • jbombardjbombard SapporoPosts: 530Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Until the mentality of PvP'ers change from one of being an ass hat the majority of the time to one that is as accommodating as the PvE'er then I'll stick with PvE.

     

    Almost every pvp enthusiast I know is a generally nice person as the average goes.

    They often get a lot of hate thrown at them when they attack another player though.  That player takes the attack as something personal and thinks the attacker is some kind of "asshat" for attacking them.  A simple "gg" "good fight" or "aah ya got me" would suffice but I usually see whining, name calling, and general bickering instead.  Of course this only serves to encourage the attacker to name call, insult, and bicker right back.

    Blame the "PVP" players all you like, but the fact of the matter is, you have no real evidence they are less civil than the rest of the gaming community.  They just like to attack other players, and other players often like to get upset when they get attacked.

    There are plenty of asshats in PvE and PvP, the difference is it is far easier to just ignore the asshats in PvE.

     

    Back on topic...  There are plenty of people who either don't like PvP or aren't very good at PvP.  Some people enjoy story and exploration more and generally PvP don't provide much satsifcation in this department.  

     

    I personally don't care for PvP in most PvE MMORPGs I play because traditional warfare and tactics don't exist.  Strategy comes down to ZERG! or NUKE HEALZ! and that is usually when there is strategy, most of the time it is just a big clusterfock with everyone just trying to see who can get the most kills.  I imagine a game based solely on the PvP experience would have much better PvP but probably at the expense of good PvE, and since I prefer PvE I stick to games where I enjoy the PvE experience.(and that usually means bad PvP)

  • WylfWylf Brentwood, CAPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Until the mentality of PvP'ers change from one of being an ass hat the majority of the time to one that is as accommodating as the PvE'er then I'll stick with PvE.

     

    Almost every pvp enthusiast I know is a generally nice person as the average goes.

    They often get a lot of hate thrown at them when they attack another player though.  That player takes the attack as something personal and thinks the attacker is some kind of "asshat" for attacking them.  A simple "gg" "good fight" or "aah ya got me" would suffice but I usually see whining, name calling, and general bickering instead.  Of course this only serves to encourage the attacker to name call, insult, and bicker right back.

    Blame the "PVP" players all you like, but the fact of the matter is, you have no real evidence they are less civil than the rest of the gaming community.  They just like to attack other players, and other players often like to get upset when they get attacked.

     Azzamasin's got it right.     Ramanadjinn states, "you have no real evidence they are less civil than the rest of the gaming community" What evidence would satisfy you?  There is only anecdotal stories, but those stories are legion.
     

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