Developers have got access to numbers. Numbers don't lie.
Actually they do. Or more so people draw the wrong conclusion from numbers. It has been shown time and time again, there is a huge misunderstanding in general of what makes something a hit.
My Pizza shop sells the most Pizza in the area. That's because people like my recipe. That could be one conclusion, however the reality is much much more complicated. It could be because yours is more marketed, or has a better price, or more visibility, or the only one around, or good service, or fancy decor, or all of the above and so on. When something is successful the reality is there are many reasons why and often it is not reproducible. That is why numbers alone do not tell the whole story. Ask all WOW players why it was a hit, and I bet you would get more then one answer, in fact probably hundreds or thousands.
This is what the OP I believe was trying to say. Developers see something that is liked and as to often, draw the wrong conclusions from it. In essence deciding what we like, and try to reproduce the formula that made a hit (often as lazily as possible).
Developers have got access to numbers. Numbers don't lie.
Actually they do. Or more so people draw the wrong conclusion from numbers. It has been shown time and time again, there is a huge misunderstanding in general of what makes something a hit.
My Pizza shop sells the most Pizza in the area. That's because people like my recipe. That could be one conclusion, however the reality is much much more complicated. It could be because yours is more marketed, or has a better price, or more visibility, or the only one around, or good service, or fancy decor, or all of the above and so on. When something is successful the reality is there are many reasons why and often it is not reproducible. That is why numbers alone do not tell the whole story. Ask all WOW players why it was a hit, and I bet you would get more then one answer, in fact probably hundreds or thousands.
This is what the OP I believe was trying to say. Developers see something that is liked and as to often, draw the wrong conclusions from it. In essence deciding what we like, and try to reproduce the formula that made a hit (often as lazily as possible).
Technically he's correct numbers don't lie.
Where the lack of truth comes in is how those numbers were gather and how they are interpreted but the numbers themselves do not lie .
However I doubt a company wants to fool itself in where the greatest potential for profit lies.
Aaaaaaaaand, Blizzard testing in-game shop, 1st item leaked, 100% exp boost. I was suprised reading Blizz forums how many people actually support this shop (as long as it won't sells gear). No, they don't decide. We're the ones who decide, sadly.
Overly simplified but ultimately true. Yes, developers have to make a game to sell to an audience. If they choose correctly, find funding, and create a good product it sells.
If they just decide to make whatever game they want to play, the heck with what gamers want, often their time and money is wasted.
yes, we are sheep to what devs like, but very powerful sheep. Sheep that pay for games we like and let games that we do not like fail.
Aaaaaaaaand, Blizzard testing in-game shop, 1st item leaked, 100% exp boost. I was suprised reading Blizz forums how many people actually support this shop (as long as it won't sells gear). No, they don't decide. We're the ones who decide, sadly.
Why is it sad?
It is great that people decide. Now if you don't like what others do .... may be it is sad only for you.
I am responding to the title due to its absurdity.
I 100% disagree with you. The problem with MMO's is developers are listening to what people want. They aren't making a game that they think will be engaging. They aren't being artistic or creative. Instead, they are following guidelines set out by a shit-ton of whiners on forums that end up manifested in games that are run of the mill clone copies of one another.
You can't please everybody. And that is the developers problem. If developers could choose what players liked then MMO's wouldn't be losing players/shutting down, and I sure as hell would be active in one right now.
I 100% disagree with you. They are giving us what they want and telling us players asked for it.
- Do you ask for easy ?....Do you know anyone that does ?
- Do you ask for Mega servers and copies of realms, if it effects the community ?
- Do you ask for crazy out of hand F2P, P2W and heavy cash shops ?....well, maybe you are one of the totally free players that jumped on the mmo band wagon because its one of the only ways to get something for free !
Yet we see thousands of post, post after post of how everyone hates every mmo......... Are you so blind to not know that developers are telling you how to play ?
As you are a new member to our MMORPG community allow me to educate you.
Asking for easy? YES THE FORUMS ASKED FOR THAT. All over them. Not just this one. People whined about camping, crafting, travelling, boss fight time lengths, mob density, grind and death. The developers listened and made the games easier.
Megaservers - Yes people asked for this. You have guys like narius who don't enjoy MMO's. They want games that are connected at all times though.
F2P, P2W and Cashshops, again as you are new to the community, yes this was all requested and begged for. There were many long threads on many different forums discussing it. Most people opted for F2P because they didn't have the foresight to know what would happen.
So, what is your rebuttal? It was ALL asked for, and ALL delivered. I watched it all happen.
Also, don't insult me calling me a F2P player. As you are again, new to the community and have no idea what you are talking about, calling me a F2P player is ridiculous.
Asking for easy? YES THE FORUMS ASKED FOR THAT. All over them. Not just this one. People whined about camping, crafting, travelling, boss fight time lengths, mob density, grind and death. The developers listened and made the games easier.
Few of those things you listed make a game challenging. People just don't think they are fun.
Camping - this, in fact, makes a game trivial and boring. Waiting does not equate challenge. In fact, when you camp with 50 others, the encounter becomes trivial because others will "help" you to clear the boss faster, so that they don't have to wait as long. I was there back in EQ camping Lower Guk for 6 hours for the SMR. We died not even once. It was way easier than any raid in WOW.
Traveling - how is traveling from point A to B challenging? In fact, it is trivial and boring and that is why it is taken out of most MMOs.
Boss fight time length - longer = harder? Well, i suppose that means the group have to make no mistakes in a longer period of time. I don't think this is a crucial aspect of making an encounter difficult, but i will give you that it sometimes help (though personally i prefer other ways to make an encounter challenging .. because longer != more fun).
Mob density - This one increases challenge. No argument here.
Grind - well .. grind is grind. It itself is not challenging. It just demands time from players.
Death - death penalty i presume? DP has nothing to do with encounter challenge. Just look at hard mode wow raids ... there are some raids only 2% of the players ever clear it .. and even if there is no DP, you can't overcome the boss without beating the challenge.
I don't entirely disagree with the OP but I do feel that sometimes as customers we aren't the best ones to listen to. Also you run the risk of listening to vocal minority and other things. Henry Ford said it best. "If I had asked to my customers what they wanted they would have said faster horses." Sometimes we can't imagine what the next best thing is until it is thrust upon us.
Uhg and before someone goes off, I'm not saying we don't have brains in our head. I'm not saying we shouldn't give feedback. I'm saying let your money do the talking because that is really what game companies listen to. If you don't like what a game has to offer don't buy it. If you love it buy it and buy copies for your friends.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR Looking Forward to: Wildstar
If you don't care about definitions, why are you trying to define what an MMO is or isn't?
Seems like if you didn't care, you'd just talk about the separate things you do care about and not even involve the term "MMO" at all. (Especially as it has no relation whatsoever to the definitions you've presented.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't entirely disagree with the OP but I do feel that sometimes as customers we aren't the best ones to listen to. Also you run the risk of listening to vocal minority and other things. Henry Ford said it best. "If I had asked to my customers what they wanted they would have said faster horses." Sometimes we can't imagine what the next best thing is until it is thrust upon us.
Uhg and before someone goes off, I'm not saying we don't have brains in our head. I'm not saying we shouldn't give feedback. I'm saying let your money do the talking because that is really what game companies listen to. If you don't like what a game has to offer don't buy it. If you love it buy it and buy copies for your friends.
No one says devs should just ask, or read this forum.
However, they do have data of what players DO. They know LFD is a popular feature not because people are asking about it on forums, but because they know exactly how often, and how many players use it.
Data speaks a lot louder than words, and devs have data in spades.
I don't entirely disagree with the OP but I do feel that sometimes as customers we aren't the best ones to listen to. Also you run the risk of listening to vocal minority and other things. Henry Ford said it best. "If I had asked to my customers what they wanted they would have said faster horses." Sometimes we can't imagine what the next best thing is until it is thrust upon us.
Uhg and before someone goes off, I'm not saying we don't have brains in our head. I'm not saying we shouldn't give feedback. I'm saying let your money do the talking because that is really what game companies listen to. If you don't like what a game has to offer don't buy it. If you love it buy it and buy copies for your friends.
No one says devs should just ask, or read this forum.
However, they do have data of what players DO. They know LFD is a popular feature not because people are asking about it on forums, but because they know exactly how often, and how many players use it.
Data speaks a lot louder than words, and devs have data in spades.
Data can mean whatever a person wants them to mean.. Such as LFD.. Sure their might be thousands or maybe millions of LFD's clicked per year, but how many don't click...... I gave up playing the LFD game years ago.. I refuse along with all my friends to ever do that again.. We avoid any game that has LFD tools......... So lets ask again, does the devs's data SHOW all the people that don't use LFD? NOPE, it doesn't....... Anyways
I think developers/game decision makers give ...."the great unwashed".....what they think they will play.
Not necessarily a great game..or an innovative game
I think there is a general low regard (almost tempted to say disdain) for the gamer populous by many game designers.
I think most developers haven't a clue about the general game savvy of the gamer populous as a whole.
As a whole...I think the gamer populous gets the games they deserve for accepting the crap game company's have been producing.
They just serving games we can swallow. Not that we really like or the retention numbers wouldn't be so bad.
I have said before the great number games has been replace to getting whales into your cash shops. Don't need to worry about the whiny players who are tired of the same old and blow through content like a coke head.
They just need enough content for you to level a character and a few alts in 1-2 months and return since it's free. It gives nice background to the characters buying up the cash shops lol.
No just sounds like your taste differs from the majority. Its the same reason art house movies don't get the same budget as action movies. Go support an indy dev on Kickstarter. Some funded developers may gamble on new ideas but it is usually a calculated risk (for instance EQN sounds like it will be high risk with potential for high returns).
I think the OP overestimates the modern person's will to associate with others. Mainstream MMOs succeed partly because they give us the illusion of sociability while distracting from real relationships with others. Rarely do people go out of their way to form genuine relationships with strangers in general, let alone via online games.
Some MMOs, via their mechanics or motifs, might encourage a 'community atmosphere' more than others, but that alone is not enough to get people to want to form anymore than formal in-game relationships with each other; if it happens, it's due to individual choice.
People hop from MMO to MMO because they get bored easily; after all, MMO design is pretty iterative - but the main reason is because they find again and again that the main source of novelty in such games, or their lives in general as the case may be, is through relating with others, and MMOs usually aren't the most conducive medium to realizing that. If my friends play a particular MMO, it's because we are excited at the prospect of sharing the experience; if for some reason we aren't able to consistently play together (which always happens eventually), things get stale fast. Playing solo is just a momentary distraction, usually with the hope of eventually sharing my progress with others. This is where I think your post has a kernal of insight to it.
However, how likely is it that you will form genuine friendships online? Not impossible, certainly, but not likely. Is this the devs fault? Partially. But they follow marketing figures, and marketing figures say we care more about repetitive, distracting gameplay in a shiny novel coating then we do building relationships.
From personal experience: the MMO I stayed with longest was WoW. The game had whatever the opposite of 'community' should mean, and it perfected skinner box gameplay. Part of the reason I stayed was because my friends were similarly addicted to it, part of it because it looked like I was beginning to make actual friends through my guild. Unfortunately, things went sour, and as soon as I found myself in a position where there was no immediate hope of nurturing new or existing relationships, I quit. I don't blame the game for what happened, and I don't think as a result that it's impossible to create meaningful relationships with others over an MMO medium, but it did lead me to see that, while most people playing might welcome such relationships, few are willing to make the conserted effort to put in the work to establish them with strangers, and also that long-time familiarity with say, guildmates, does not equal rewarding interpersonal relationships, yet the former is usually the best you get with MMOs.
TLDR: I can understand your thirst for 'community', but true 'community' doesn't come without each person's effort, and a change in people would be necessary before there is a real change in MMOs.
Comments
Actually they do. Or more so people draw the wrong conclusion from numbers. It has been shown time and time again, there is a huge misunderstanding in general of what makes something a hit.
My Pizza shop sells the most Pizza in the area. That's because people like my recipe. That could be one conclusion, however the reality is much much more complicated. It could be because yours is more marketed, or has a better price, or more visibility, or the only one around, or good service, or fancy decor, or all of the above and so on. When something is successful the reality is there are many reasons why and often it is not reproducible. That is why numbers alone do not tell the whole story. Ask all WOW players why it was a hit, and I bet you would get more then one answer, in fact probably hundreds or thousands.
This is what the OP I believe was trying to say. Developers see something that is liked and as to often, draw the wrong conclusions from it. In essence deciding what we like, and try to reproduce the formula that made a hit (often as lazily as possible).
Technically he's correct numbers don't lie.
Where the lack of truth comes in is how those numbers were gather and how they are interpreted but the numbers themselves do not lie .
However I doubt a company wants to fool itself in where the greatest potential for profit lies.
Plus, just look at the successes .. WOW, LoL, D3, WoT ... don't tell me you don't think those devs know a thing or two about their audiences.
Aaaaaaaaand, Blizzard testing in-game shop, 1st item leaked, 100% exp boost. I was suprised reading Blizz forums how many people actually support this shop (as long as it won't sells gear). No, they don't decide. We're the ones who decide, sadly.
Overly simplified but ultimately true. Yes, developers have to make a game to sell to an audience. If they choose correctly, find funding, and create a good product it sells.
If they just decide to make whatever game they want to play, the heck with what gamers want, often their time and money is wasted.
yes, we are sheep to what devs like, but very powerful sheep. Sheep that pay for games we like and let games that we do not like fail.
Why is it sad?
It is great that people decide. Now if you don't like what others do .... may be it is sad only for you.
As you are a new member to our MMORPG community allow me to educate you.
Asking for easy? YES THE FORUMS ASKED FOR THAT. All over them. Not just this one. People whined about camping, crafting, travelling, boss fight time lengths, mob density, grind and death. The developers listened and made the games easier.
Megaservers - Yes people asked for this. You have guys like narius who don't enjoy MMO's. They want games that are connected at all times though.
F2P, P2W and Cashshops, again as you are new to the community, yes this was all requested and begged for. There were many long threads on many different forums discussing it. Most people opted for F2P because they didn't have the foresight to know what would happen.
So, what is your rebuttal? It was ALL asked for, and ALL delivered. I watched it all happen.
Also, don't insult me calling me a F2P player. As you are again, new to the community and have no idea what you are talking about, calling me a F2P player is ridiculous.
Made my day, thanks!
ps. Black Sheep was a damn fun movie
Or maybe "what we like" is not as profitable as some of the new concepts.
Few of those things you listed make a game challenging. People just don't think they are fun.
Camping - this, in fact, makes a game trivial and boring. Waiting does not equate challenge. In fact, when you camp with 50 others, the encounter becomes trivial because others will "help" you to clear the boss faster, so that they don't have to wait as long. I was there back in EQ camping Lower Guk for 6 hours for the SMR. We died not even once. It was way easier than any raid in WOW.
Traveling - how is traveling from point A to B challenging? In fact, it is trivial and boring and that is why it is taken out of most MMOs.
Boss fight time length - longer = harder? Well, i suppose that means the group have to make no mistakes in a longer period of time. I don't think this is a crucial aspect of making an encounter difficult, but i will give you that it sometimes help (though personally i prefer other ways to make an encounter challenging .. because longer != more fun).
Mob density - This one increases challenge. No argument here.
Grind - well .. grind is grind. It itself is not challenging. It just demands time from players.
Death - death penalty i presume? DP has nothing to do with encounter challenge. Just look at hard mode wow raids ... there are some raids only 2% of the players ever clear it .. and even if there is no DP, you can't overcome the boss without beating the challenge.
I don't entirely disagree with the OP but I do feel that sometimes as customers we aren't the best ones to listen to. Also you run the risk of listening to vocal minority and other things. Henry Ford said it best. "If I had asked to my customers what they wanted they would have said faster horses." Sometimes we can't imagine what the next best thing is until it is thrust upon us.
Uhg and before someone goes off, I'm not saying we don't have brains in our head. I'm not saying we shouldn't give feedback. I'm saying let your money do the talking because that is really what game companies listen to. If you don't like what a game has to offer don't buy it. If you love it buy it and buy copies for your friends.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
Looking Forward to: Wildstar
If you don't care about definitions, why are you trying to define what an MMO is or isn't?
Seems like if you didn't care, you'd just talk about the separate things you do care about and not even involve the term "MMO" at all. (Especially as it has no relation whatsoever to the definitions you've presented.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No one says devs should just ask, or read this forum.
However, they do have data of what players DO. They know LFD is a popular feature not because people are asking about it on forums, but because they know exactly how often, and how many players use it.
Data speaks a lot louder than words, and devs have data in spades.
I think developers/game decision makers give ...."the great unwashed".....what they think they will play.
Not necessarily a great game..or an innovative game
I think there is a general low regard (almost tempted to say disdain) for the gamer populous by many game designers.
I think most developers haven't a clue about the general game savvy of the gamer populous as a whole.
As a whole...I think the gamer populous gets the games they deserve for accepting the crap game company's have been producing.
I doubt devs who have no clue can make games that sold millions upon millions. Some of them have clues, probably more than anyone here on this forum.
Data can mean whatever a person wants them to mean.. Such as LFD.. Sure their might be thousands or maybe millions of LFD's clicked per year, but how many don't click...... I gave up playing the LFD game years ago.. I refuse along with all my friends to ever do that again.. We avoid any game that has LFD tools......... So lets ask again, does the devs's data SHOW all the people that don't use LFD? NOPE, it doesn't....... Anyways
I can tell you right now, every McDonald's owner is clueless how to run a 4 star fine bistro....... Just saying...
"As a whole...I think the gamer populous gets the games they deserve for accepting the crap game company's have been producing."
That's one of my points......gamers are getting exactly what they deserve when the buy inferior product.And yes by the millions.
Though I'm glad to see some game company's are being punished for their inferior work....SWTOR and RIFT ,DEFIANCE come immediately to mind.
MCDonalds doesn't represent themselves as a fine dining establishment.
Cheap and fast is what the SAY they are.
Inferior? You don't like it does not mean that it is inferior.
They just serving games we can swallow. Not that we really like or the retention numbers wouldn't be so bad.
I have said before the great number games has been replace to getting whales into your cash shops. Don't need to worry about the whiny players who are tired of the same old and blow through content like a coke head.
They just need enough content for you to level a character and a few alts in 1-2 months and return since it's free. It gives nice background to the characters buying up the cash shops lol.
"I completely disagree. Developers have got access to numbers. Numbers don't lie."
Indeed, never in the history of mankind have numbers lied.
Baa!
I think the OP overestimates the modern person's will to associate with others. Mainstream MMOs succeed partly because they give us the illusion of sociability while distracting from real relationships with others. Rarely do people go out of their way to form genuine relationships with strangers in general, let alone via online games.
Some MMOs, via their mechanics or motifs, might encourage a 'community atmosphere' more than others, but that alone is not enough to get people to want to form anymore than formal in-game relationships with each other; if it happens, it's due to individual choice.
People hop from MMO to MMO because they get bored easily; after all, MMO design is pretty iterative - but the main reason is because they find again and again that the main source of novelty in such games, or their lives in general as the case may be, is through relating with others, and MMOs usually aren't the most conducive medium to realizing that. If my friends play a particular MMO, it's because we are excited at the prospect of sharing the experience; if for some reason we aren't able to consistently play together (which always happens eventually), things get stale fast. Playing solo is just a momentary distraction, usually with the hope of eventually sharing my progress with others. This is where I think your post has a kernal of insight to it.
However, how likely is it that you will form genuine friendships online? Not impossible, certainly, but not likely. Is this the devs fault? Partially. But they follow marketing figures, and marketing figures say we care more about repetitive, distracting gameplay in a shiny novel coating then we do building relationships.
From personal experience: the MMO I stayed with longest was WoW. The game had whatever the opposite of 'community' should mean, and it perfected skinner box gameplay. Part of the reason I stayed was because my friends were similarly addicted to it, part of it because it looked like I was beginning to make actual friends through my guild. Unfortunately, things went sour, and as soon as I found myself in a position where there was no immediate hope of nurturing new or existing relationships, I quit. I don't blame the game for what happened, and I don't think as a result that it's impossible to create meaningful relationships with others over an MMO medium, but it did lead me to see that, while most people playing might welcome such relationships, few are willing to make the conserted effort to put in the work to establish them with strangers, and also that long-time familiarity with say, guildmates, does not equal rewarding interpersonal relationships, yet the former is usually the best you get with MMOs.
TLDR: I can understand your thirst for 'community', but true 'community' doesn't come without each person's effort, and a change in people would be necessary before there is a real change in MMOs.