How the "I pay $15/mo like everyone, i should see everything" mentality has contributed to the curre

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  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILMember UncommonPosts: 2,393
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Cumulative time spent is a different issue entirely.  If one player plays a game 5 hours per day and another plays 5 hours per week, it's reasonable to expect that the latter player will take about seven times as long (in real-life time) to get to content as the former.  What's unreasonable is if the latter player is never allowed to get to some content, rather than merely taking longer to get there.

    I think this can't be said enough.  Now what follows is a long explanation, but I think it ought to be said.  Because I, like Quizzical, think the question the OP posts doesn't quite get to the heart of the concern.

     

    Because there are, and always have been, people who do pay $15 and "see everything," due to a relentless and ruthless drive to über out as quickly as possible.

     

    And there are others who, because of a desire to place other things ahead of their own überness, can pay $1,500 in fees (over eight years of fees), and never see everything, because they are doing other things--important things--and aren't spending time consuming content by hook or crook.  I saw these people in games like CoH.  I saw these people in games like SWG.  They were the base builders, the fanfic writers, the GMs, the Architect Entertainment writers and the roleplayers.  And when the game shut down, these are the folks that payed more, got less, and were utterly unrewarded for their efforts.

     

    From my experience, this genre typically doesn't reward people who pay in a lot of money.  It rewards people who can consume the content rapidly.  People who pay in a lot of money?  Well, they may get some temporary satisfaction, but will always be "keeping up with the Jones's," so to say.  And the more a player plays in the spirit of the game by roleplaying, slow playing, taking time out to help friends, run or participate in community events or do anciliary functions (websites, guild creation, fanfiction, etc.), the less likely that player is to be rewarded in the games they play.

     

    So, I think we ought to rephrase the question a different way.  The question isn't "I pay $15/mo like everyone, I should see everything," because powergamers like xXDEATHDEALERXx and his überposse counterstrike clan are always going to "see everything" really quickly.

     

    The question is, "I pay $1,500 over a series of years, doing important things for everyone else and the game, why shouldn't I see everything?"

     

    _________________

    Why don't they?  It's real simple.  The ones who powergame through the grind and min/max are always one step ahead of the nerfs, the rebalances and the inevitable service cancellation.  I think of SWG and the whole "grind to Jedi" that awarded the coveted class to the ones who could power through the professions as quickly and unrepentently as possible.  It rewarded the people who didn't care if they cluttered up the cantinas with AFK.  It rewarded the people who didn't care if they were camping places with high XP mobs.  It rewarded the spammers, the hoarders, the inconsiderate and the antisocial.  But at least they got a Jedi...

     

    ...Those who actually cared about playing the professions the way they were meant to be played had enough respect for the game, and the environment, to put other things ahead of Jedi grinding.  While all the powergamers were busy doing the Jedi grind, the real players entertained, made the weapons, formed the groups, fought the GCW and told the stories, completing professions when they could.  They said :"I'll always have time to do Jedi, but right now, some things are more important."  And what was their reward for putting the good of the game ahead of the good for themselves?  The whole Jedi system was nerfed, and they had to relearn a new system.

     

    The new system rewarded the powergamers even more than the old system.  It was only accessable to combat characters, and involved a whole series of massive combat grinds in the village.  And, if you were a powergamer who didn't care about anything but getting what you wanted quickly, you had no trouble with parking yourself at "the village" to be fed by your alts.  But if you actually cared about making the rest of the server run, you wouldn't be at the village so much.  You'd complete it when you could, after you did the things that mattered (entertain, build weapons, do GCW things, etc.).  You'd say, "I'll have time to do the village, but it's best to do more important things now, like a player event or GCW things."  But, as we all know, time was short.

     

    When this system was nerfed in favor of NGE, a lot of people--powergamers and slow players--quit.  But it seems that those who powered through the Corellian Corvette, the Jedi Village, the Warren, Kashyyk, etc. were able to quit a whole lot easier than the ones like the ATK dancer who never saw those things, or the weaponsmith and guild leader who spent his time making sure everyone else could grind to Jedi.  Because at least the powergamer saw it all and did it all.  The slow player who did things the right way?  He got the shaft.

     

    _______________________

     

    The ones who slow down, play the right way, take some time to do player made events, help friends and enjoy themselves in a normal way are always the ones who are always playing a much more difficult game.  A lot of what we throw out around here, things like "just because you pay $15 doesn't mean you're entitled to everything the game has to offer," are probably people who think nothing of speed throughs, powerlevelling, min/maxing and staying up for days on end after an expansion comes out to consume the content before anyone else.

     

    But one ought to look at this issue a different way.  There are people like xXDEATHDEALERXx and his powergaming clan who can, because of powergaming guides and a relentless drive to be über, "see everything" in one month of $15 or a few months of $15.  In fact, his time is a lot easier, because he's always one step ahead of the nefs and wholesale redesigns that make it more difficult for the next guy.

     

    The problem is what to do with those folks who are always doing the helpful things and the necessary things, slow playing the game, playing realistically and advancing when and if they can, who always tend to get the shaft when the game closes, and they didn't experience much of the "cool stuff."  Because, as history shows, that kind of player always tends to come off worse than the guy who just doesn't care about anything but consuming content.

     

    And then we wonder why our communities are bad, or we don't RP or socialize, or we don't have much of an interest in player-made content...

     

    __________________________
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    --Arcken

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    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • WylfWylf Boston, MAMember UncommonPosts: 328
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's. Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre... Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation...

    First, I agree developers have been dumbing down their games. As for why? I don't accept your assumption that it is due to casual players complaining, what information, data, evidence exactly do have to make that assumption. Does every segment of the MMO community complain?  YES, emphatically yes, even your original post is a complaint OP.  So what, did a casual player put a gun to the head of the developers and force them to change games. Not that I am aware of.

     

    As for your complaint, "because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre" is pure nonsense. Of course they should have ACCESS. They are paying their way.  Access does not mean that they have a right to finish or complete the quest, dungeon, event or whatever other content there is but there is no question they should have the right to try.

     

    Before you condemn a huge portion of the MMO community you ought to show what facts you have to support your assumptions.

  • dgarbinidgarbini San Jose, CAMember Posts: 185

    So here is my take on the topic.  I understand the mentality of hey I paid so much for this I should get to see everything, I would feel that way myself.  However back in the day when I played old school games, I paid that sub and never said such things.  Why?  Well its because I was busy enjoying myself.  Often times I never raided because I had so many other things to do or never got to the point in a game.  Today though I wipe through the content in a couple of weeks on most games.  It is strange that I play less today then ever and yet I get further, faster then ever.  So is that because I have become more of a content locus or because the games have become smaller.  I'd say the former.  So what ends up happening in smaller worlds/games is that people finish up fairly quickly then start getting bored.  That is where this idea hey how come they are making content for this group and not for me comes from.  They feel that they are paying and want some value for money.  I don't think that's unfair to think that way.  But my opinion is that the root of the problem is smaller games, shorter games, quicker progression.  Not people eating through things to quickly or being entitled.  People just want to have fun with the games that they pay for, when that ends, that is where discontent comes from.  Something like 'idle hands are the devils tools'.  If they are having fun but don't enjoy dungeons, I doubt most would complain if they added a new dungeon as long as they got their thing as well.  This also falls a bit to game companies who constantly string along people with this 'it will all change in the next patch just you wait and see' bs.

     

    Now I understand there are reasons for developers making smaller games, budget issues, time, etc.  I believe that is a bit of a different topic so I wont debate that much here, but I really personally feel that is the root problem.  And I'll add that I don't think any of this has anything to do with casuals either.  People played, longer and harder games casually, in fact I still do sometimes.  So I don't think they have been asking for smaller or simpler games.  I have never heard someone say, 'god I wish this game had less stuff to do so I could keep up'.

  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,627
    Originally posted by petrus4
    Originally posted by Scot
    Well thought out and welcome to the site. But I am not sure how you would achieve the segregation you mention. MMO companies loathe to split the player base for any reason. In fact they are trying via 'looking for grouping' systems to create a player pool that stretches across server names. I love the idea of RP servers being the equivalent of a national park, but I just cannot see anything remotely like that happening.

     

    Thank you.  I'm curious as to why MMORPG companies want to put the entire playerbase in one place?  Is it because they're scared of new people logging in and finding few people present?

    Yes, they want the population to be as big as possible. This is also the reason they try to shoehorn players into a MMO design that supposedly pleases us all. They try to provide something for everyone, but in the process have to restrict each element because they have to please us all. The only distinction you see today in servers is PvP and PvE, having a RP server is a thing of the past.

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  • petrus4petrus4 MelbourneMember Posts: 14


    ...Those who actually cared about playing the professions the way they were meant to be played had enough respect for the game, and the environment, to put other things ahead of Jedi grinding.  While all the powergamers were busy doing the Jedi grind, the real players entertained, made the weapons, formed the groups, fought the GCW and told the stories, completing professions when they could.  They said :"I'll always have time to do Jedi, but right now, some things are more important."  And what was their reward for putting the good of the game ahead of the good for themselves?  The whole Jedi system was nerfed, and they had to relearn a new system.

    I can absolutely relate to this.

    Within probably three months of the end of my period playing World of Warcraft, I was approached by someone who wanted to pay me to write a class guide for the Hunter. Yet I was consistently mocked and made fun of on the forums, because those who had access to my Armoury profile, could see that I had hardly raided at all. There were three reasons for that.

    a} I spent a lot of my time doing battleground (not Arena, which I hated for the most part) PvP.

    b} I spent even more of my time giving much lower level players runs through various instances; Blackrock Depths was probably the main one which comes to mind.

    c} I spent the rest of my time in solitary training; usually in instances fairly close (within ten levels) of my own level, that had been originally designed for five person groups.

    The raid game was never the most important thing to me, in WoW. Technique always was, first and foremost; and the main reason why, was simply because I loved it to the degree that I did. TBC was a time before the game was dumbed down to the extent that it later was; I would buy various different damage grades of arrows, and use them like golf clubs in order to regulate my threat.

    This is an important distinction to make, because the speed racers did the opposite. Sure, they had the server first boss kills, and the epic flying mounts before anyone else, and they'd get to the cap within 2-3 weeks of the expansion's first release; but the thing that I realised about such people, was that they did not really enjoy the game. It was all for epeen; it was all so that they could get the points on the board and brag to other people about how quickly they had done everything.

    When I missed out on raid progression because of taking the umpteenth group of 15 year olds through BRD, I would also tell myself that I could raid later; there'd be time. And although I saw a tiny bit of it, for the most part, there never actually was time, in the end; but for me, that was ok.


    The slow player who did things the right way?  He got the shaft.

    Yep. WoW was the same. It never rewarded altruistic behaviour. Some of the classes were designed for altruistic roles (the Paladin, the healers, the Hunter to a degree) but nobody wanted to tank or heal; there was a shortage of them throughout the history of the game. I tanked and healed at times; they were always my alts, but I still found it fun...and it helped people.


    And then we wonder why our communities are bad, or we don't RP or socialize, or we don't have much of an interest in player-made content...
     

    The answer is epeen. It's all because of epeen. I saw a very large number of people on the WoW forums who were largely sociopathic, yet for various real world reasons weren't able to join their fellow sociopaths in climbing the proverbial corporate ladder. So they tried to use doing the same thing, vicariously within an MMORPG, as a means of psychologically compensating for that, and having a group of people who they could still tell themselves that they were superior to.

    Most people these days (particularly in America) seem to have extremely unhappy, restricted, non-free, and disempowering offline lives. Because of this, they are miserable, and feel helpless and unfulfilled. So they see MMORPGs as a means, again, of trying to emotionally fill the void that is left as a result of that. They hope desperately that the server first kills or whatever else, will impress other people sufficiently that maybe for just five minutes, they'll be able to stop focusing on how worthless they consider themselves to be.

  • petrus4petrus4 MelbourneMember Posts: 14


    Originally posted by ScotSome hybrid MMO's have a better cash shop than others, but they never escape the problems associated with a cash shop. So I don't see much light on the horizon.
     

    The only real reason why the F2P/cash shop model exists that I can see, is to cope with two issues:-

    a} Players not wanting to put down sub money for a game that actually sucks, when the suits still try and tell themselves that it doesn't.

    b} Players being immature, entitled, spoiled, Generation Y brats with close to zero discipline or integrity, who think that they should get everything they want, immediately, for no investment of any kind whatsoever; whether it be money, effort, or time, and who then complain later that they don't understand why they are bored.

    Given that I am old school when it comes to this particular topic, my attitude concerning it is roughly this:-

    If an MMORPG dev company wants to have a cash shop for their MMORPG, then as far as I am concerned, that is perfectly fine. However, if they don't have a scenario where I can still pay a monthly sub, then they shouldn't expect me to be interested. I want the monthly sub more than I want F2P, because I want the inherent agreement that exists between me and the company as a result of that. I understand that the development company needs a steady income in order to keep the lights on, the servers running, and people getting paid etc etc. I am not a 14 year old with unrealistic entitlement issues.

    I will pause here to explain something important, in case people who read this don't understand it.

    Free to Play is actually a misleading term.

    MMORPG development companies are not in the business of making truly free games. They're there to make money. What a supposedly "free to play," game is, is one where you get to download the client and enter the game environment, without any money down up front, and go through a certain, variable amount of introductory content.

    However, don't fool yourselves about the fact that the company are always expecting you to eventually go to the cash shop and pay to unlock the really good stuff. DDO, from memory, gave F2P players 3 out of 5 of the playable races, but if you wanted the last two, you had to pay. They also made most of the newbie instances in the first hub free, but if you wanted to get the good stuff in Stormreach, then again, you had to pay.

    So I don't want that. I don't want to be incrementally drip fed content which I have to go back and pay additionally for, over and over again, because the irony is, that by doing so, I will ultimately end up paying more in the long term, than I will with a monthly sub.

    A monthly sub, particularly if a lot of people are paying for it, is potentially MUCH cheaper for you as a customer in the long term, than the "Free to Play," model could ever hope to be. The suits are probably hoping that you never figure that out; and I'm guessing that most of you haven't, yet.

    Hence, I absolutely want my monthly sub, because I want the contract that goes with it. Said contract is this; that if I pay my monthly sub, I get access to every single thing that said dev company produces for the game. Notice that I said access. I'm very likely not going to use every possible race/class combo in a large game, and nor, given the way I usually play, am I likely to see more than 50-75% of the overall content.

    Let me explain another point to you here, so that we can clean up the controversy surrounding it. A lot of people cried oceans of tears over the fact that during the original World of Warcraft, well under 5% of the playing population ever got to see inside Naxxramas. I never had a problem with that; and I want to tell you why.

    Although I never saw the original Naxx myself, when TBC first came out, I was level 58, which meant that technically I was able to go through the Dark Portal into Outland, even though it wasn't a good idea, as it turned out. So I went through and queued up for a Hellfire Ramparts 5 man, and also assumed, in my hubris, that I was going to be able to lead the group, and we'd blitz through it.

    I got absolutely destroyed, and so did the rest of the group I was with. The group disbanded very rapidly. I then went and tried some of the initial questing around Thrallmar. Although the mobs there were non-elites, the same thing happened. I wasn't up to it yet.

    So I went back to the Scarlet Monastery and trained by soloing it for another six weeks, as well as doing the quests I needed to get to 60, farming BRD for other gear, and playing Warsong Gulch enough that I got the epic shotgun from there, to use as my weapon when I went back to HFP.

    The result? When I got back, I no longer had a problem, and also had a ranged weapon which lasted me almost into Zangarmarsh.

    The point is, that while other people have used the analogy of McDonald's for an MMORPG, I'm going to use the analogy of a gymnasium. Gyms have a monthly sub, but if you expect that after paying that, you're going to instantly get fit without having to do any work whatsoever, you're in for a very rude awakening. If you try and lift a certain weight without having developed the necessary strength first, you will either simply be unable to do it, or you will risk injuring yourself very severely.

    This isn't the gym owners being unfair, either; the weights and different settings are there for anyone to use. They don't restrict access. If you're paying the money, you can try...but you have to have worked up to it as well, first.

    So it is here. Richard Bartle has written a lot about the relationship between MMORPGs and the developmental process he refers to as, "The Hero's Journey." It's a funny idea, that gaming can actually help you develop positively as a person; but it's also true. My time in WoW taught me a lot.

    To close, if you think that you ought to be able to go into literally any content in the game, from your first day there, and effortlessly burn through it, I'd invite you to invest some serious thought into what sort of game that would likely end up being. I'll give you a hint; it's the sort of game that WoW has ended up being, with Mists of Pandaria.

    Ultimately, I think I'll allow His Majesty to explain my point, here; because he can do it a lot more eloquently than I can, anyway.

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,814
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    I actually do think I should see everything. I don't go to MC donalds and pay a full price for a hamburger to only get half of it. I don't spend 20 dollars (which is how much it costs in California for each person) to watch the movie and not see the end. I don't spend 60 dollars on a game (RTS/RPG/FPS etc), only to not see how it ends or be locked out of content that I paid a lot of money for. Pretty simple really.

     

    You aren't using the correct analogy. Think more like paying for entrance to a national wilderness park.

    Sure, your 10.00 fee gets you in, and you are free to walk around, hike the trails, take pictures etc. But, if you want to zip line, or white water raft you'll probably have to pay extra, sometimes quite a bit more than the entrance fee to partake.

    Some activities, such as mountain climbing or rock wall rappelling are just going to be unavailable to you either due to physical limitations or the fact you don't have the time to climb to 14k foot mark on the mountain.

    So think of a MMO environment as one where there are multiple options for fun, however you might not get to experience all of it without some additional investments of either time or money, which you actually may never have.

    And that's OK, games do not have to be designed so that everyone may experience everything.

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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,649

    Games CAN be designed so that everybody can experience everything, Kyleran. That's what difficulty levels are for.

    For instance, raids can be separated into pickup group difficulty level, normal modes and hardcore modes, several games use that model successfully. That allows everyone paying his $15 to see the content he contributed to fund the creation of.

    There's also the point of "seeing" versus "completing". For instance, in GW2, everyone can "see" the jumping puzzles, there's no restricted entrance... but that doesn't mean everyone will be able to complete all of them. The last jumping puzzle they added is incredibly difficult, but everyone can access the inside of the mountain and see the awesome design, the huge airship in the cave, the content he contributed to pay for when he bought the game box.

    "I pay $15 like everyone, I should see everything" is TRUE.

    "I pay $15 like everyone I should complete everything" is WRONG.

    But no area of a well designed game should be restricted to only an "elite". Bullshit like the heavy restrictions you had to enter some raids during vanilla and TBC WoW are good examples of how NOT to do things.

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  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Waseca, MNMember UncommonPosts: 278
    Originally posted by petrus4


    Free to Play is actually a misleading term. But you see it is not a misleading term at all. Take the sentence for what it is. In order to play, you do not have to pay a penny. That means exactly what it says, it does not say in order to have access to everything it is free
      A monthly sub, particularly if a lot of people are paying for it, is POTENTIALLY much cheaper for you as a customer in the long term, than the "Free to Play," model could ever hope to be. The suits are probably hoping that you never figure that out; and I'm guessing that most of you haven't, yet. Gonna fix that for you.
    The point is, that while other people have used the analogy of McDonald's for an MMORPG, I'm going to use the analogy of a gymnasium. Gyms have a monthly sub, but if you expect that after paying that, you're going to instantly get fit without having to do any work whatsoever, you're in for a very rude awakening. If you try and lift a certain weight without having developed the necessary strength first, you will either simply be unable to do it, or you will risk injuring yourself very severely. This isn't the gym owners being unfair, either; the weights and different settings are there for anyone to use. They don't restrict access. If you're paying the money, you can try...but you have to have worked up to it as well, first. I have to honestly say I like this analogy, it does really ring true. But you have to add in that there are people out there who are willing to run around the block instead of on a treadmill. You gym is the sub system, the block is the f2p system. In a gym there is much more access to many different things, and you may well tone up much faster thanks to the access of it all, however it does not invalidate working out in other ways.

     

    Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going!
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,628
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    Yes, they want the population to be as big as possible. This is also the reason they try to shoehorn players into a MMO design that supposedly pleases us all. They try to provide something for everyone, but in the process have to restrict each element because they have to please us all. The only distinction you see today in servers is PvP and PvE, having a RP server is a thing of the past.

    That is only because RP is not that popular. People log onto MMO to play games, not to RP.

  • KanethKaneth Member RarePosts: 2,267
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Games CAN be designed so that everybody can experience everything, Kyleran. That's what difficulty levels are for. For instance, raids can be separated into pickup group difficulty level, normal modes and hardcore modes, several games use that model successfully. That allows everyone paying his $15 to see the content he contributed to fund the creation of. There's also the point of "seeing" versus "completing". For instance, in GW2, everyone can "see" the jumping puzzles, there's no restricted entrance... but that doesn't mean everyone will be able to complete all of them. The last jumping puzzle they added is incredibly difficult, but everyone can access the inside of the mountain and see the awesome design, the huge airship in the cave, the content he contributed to pay for when he bought the game box. "I pay $15 like everyone, I should see everything" is TRUE. "I pay $15 like everyone I should complete everything" is WRONG. But no area of a well designed game should be restricted to only an "elite". Bullshit like the heavy restrictions you had to enter some raids during vanilla and TBC WoW are good examples of how NOT to do things.

    Agreed 100% with this post. People pay for access to the game, so they should have an equal opportunity to see the content, but as you said, this doesn't mean they get to complete everything.

    The original 40 man Naxx in WoW is a good example. The entry to this raid instance was so gated that roughly 3% of the total population ever got to see it, let alone complete it. Hence when they re-released it for WotLK with 10 and 25 man versions, it was new content to the majority. The original gated raiding mechanics in WoW were completely ridiculous, because the general paying audience had little to no opportunity to see the actual content they were paying for. MMOs are games, and shouldn't have to be treated as a second job.

    I have no problem having to learn fights, wipe on bosses, having to do some prep work for raids (potions, foods, enchants, etc). I have a huge problem when content is artificially blocked though. Vanilla and TBC WoW raiding is something I will never go back to, nor support a game that attempts such a raiding model.

    Additionally, I believe more developers need to look at expanding what they offer for PvE endgames as well. Smaller group content needs to be given as much importance and large group content. Player created content is something more developers will need to embrace as well.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,628
    Originally posted by Kaneth
     

    Agreed 100% with this post. People pay for access to the game, so they should have an equal opportunity to see the content, but as you said, this doesn't mean they get to complete everything.

    The original 40 man Naxx in WoW is a good example. The entry to this raid instance was so gated that roughly 3% of the total population ever got to see it, let alone complete it. Hence when they re-released it for WotLK with 10 and 25 man versions, it was new content to the majority. The original gated raiding mechanics in WoW were completely ridiculous, because the general paying audience had little to no opportunity to see the actual content they were paying for. MMOs are games, and shouldn't have to be treated as a second job.

    I have no problem having to learn fights, wipe on bosses, having to do some prep work for raids (potions, foods, enchants, etc). I have a huge problem when content is artificially blocked though. Vanilla and TBC WoW raiding is something I will never go back to, nor support a game that attempts such a raiding model.

    Additionally, I believe more developers need to look at expanding what they offer for PvE endgames as well. Smaller group content needs to be given as much importance and large group content. Player created content is something more developers will need to embrace as well.

    This ^^^

    Naxx and Sunwell were ridiculous. But Blizz learned. They won't just develop for the two-percenters anymore.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,120
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Salahudin
    definitely  15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..

    I have 3 jobs and 2 wives. Devs should cater to the majority like me. (/pauses to giggle like a schoolgirl)..who have a life, not the basement dwelling zombies. 

    Well if you play the new MMO's you're essentially a zombie. Brain dead people can play these instant gratification cash grabs. All offense implied to those who actually like the way MMO's are going.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • poisonmanpoisonman Warwick, RIMember Posts: 59
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's. Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre. We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea. Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc. So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc. Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation. You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing. So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

    Thank You!!!!  +1 and <3

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAMember UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's. Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre. We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea. Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc. So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc. Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation. You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing. So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

    That line is absurd. In any other area if you did not get all that you payed for you would lose your shit, but no not in the MMO genre? Why not? And the entire complaint about people that do not have enough time to devote as opposed to say a student or someone who may be unemployed, whatever, that is just as absurd.

    I don't know but for some reason this post totally pisses me off. Just the sheer fact that you think that even though I pay my money each month to play the game of my choice that I should be limited in what content I can take part of is assinine.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbaneMember UncommonPosts: 1,170
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Ridelynn
    I don't think it was a feeling of entitlement to the content, although I do recognize that there was(is) some of that sentiment that exists. Rather, I firmly blame World of Warcraft. The marketing geniuses at Blizzard/Activision figured out if you could lessen (or remove) the burdens to get to content, so that casual players could get at it, you'd get more casual players. Not just a few more players; a lot more players. Millions more players. It isn't because the players that were there felt entitled to content, it was that developers removed the restrictions and opened the floodgates, and the people came in droves. I can make a gimpy analogy:
    There are those that despise people who shop at (Insert some high-end retailer here), but by and large, those people that shop there are not really torn down. Rather, someone like Wal-Mart comes in, offers similar products at much lower prices, and lo and behold - WalMart becomes the largest retailer in the world. It wasn't because the shopper demanded products and services, it was because the retailer found a way to make them available.
    I think the OP is on to something, but has rather latched on to the wrong cause for the outcome.

    I see where you are coming from, but i disagree, i'll give you a good example:

    The main community arm/developer point of contact for WOW was a guy named Ghostcrawler.

    Now, what happened is in Burning Crusade, the playerbase whined and pissed and moaned about having to crowd control mobs in dungeon runs, it was too hard and tedious, and it made them have to have a super specific group make up and blah blah blah blah.  So, in WOTLK they made it so you could faceroll dungeons.  Tanks literally would just run into a group, spam some AOE taunts, and then the DPS would AOE down the mobs.  There was no more of this "kill the healer first, or take out the caster who is mana burning, etc".  So, then when that happened people started complaining that dungeons were too easy, etc.  So, in Cataclysm, they brought back some of the group mechanics, and guess what.  People bitched, i mean 1000+ page threads on the forums, just bitching incessantly.   So Ghostcrawler goes and makes a big blog post trying to explain to everyone the thinking behind this, and essentially tells people to L2P.  This literally throws jet fuel on the fire and created a forum explosion of bitching that was unlike anything you had ever seen before.

    People talk about vanilla wow with reverence because the game degenerated into ultra casual face roll MMO, SOLELY because of casual player whining.  They whined about EVERYTHING, leveling times, loot drops, how hard mobs were, how having to spend 2 minutes walking to a dungeon entrance was ridiculous, so they added in porting straight into the dungeon.  They complained that the skill tree was too complicated and so blizzard dumbed it down so basically you had enough points to fill almost the entire tree instead of actually havign to think about your spec and try to synergize abilities and such.  The casuals complained EVEN MORE so they dumbed it down EVEN further to where you dont even have a skill tree.  Now you can literally just mash 2 or 3 abilities and do MAXIMUM DPS!!!!11.

    People wonder why MMOs have no community and dont feel like worlds.  But then god forbid they give up their porting straight into dungeons, LFG tools, flying mounts, quest trackers, taking more than an hour to make 1 level, etc, etc.

     And this pritty much sums up exactly what is wrong with MMOs atm

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordMember UncommonPosts: 911

    Nonsense.

  • petrus4petrus4 MelbourneMember Posts: 14

     


    Originally posted by Slampig I don't know but for some reason this post totally pisses me off.

     

    Is it perhaps because it is drawing attention to an entitlement complex?

  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,994
    Originally posted by Salahudin
    definitely  15$ a month ought to give access to all content... but whether you get to it or not should depend on your skill and play..

    Well said. Being able to buy gear with endgame stats for real money so you can get there no matter how bad you play is not an improvement.

  • luvbaconluvbacon lexington, SCMember Posts: 4

    I think this came down to the fact that developers worked on content that 90% (that's not an exaggeration, that's the number) of players did not see.  At the same time they watched players leave for lack of content....THAT WAS IN THE GAME ALREADY.  How stupid is that?  To access the raid content in most of vanilla you need 40 people geared and skilled enough to raid who actually logged on each raid night.  It was inaccessible.They have made it accessible.

     

    I will agree though that they have gone too far in the other direction.  Sure, in vanilla only the elite 10% got to see the content but now it's far to the other extreme.  The most casual of casual players is killing the end-of-tier boss every week in LFR.  There needs to be a middle ground where there are things only the most hard-core see, there is the bulk of the raid content that the average raid team can clear, and there are the things that the most casual of casual gets to see.  All with some overlap, but not everything overlapping.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,628
    Originally posted by luvbacon

      I will agree though that they have gone too far in the other direction.  Sure, in vanilla only the elite 10% got to see the content but now it's far to the other extreme.  The most casual of casual players is killing the end-of-tier boss every week in LFR.  There needs to be a middle ground where there are things only the most hard-core see, there is the bulk of the raid content that the average raid team can clear, and there are the things that the most casual of casual gets to see.  All with some overlap, but not everything overlapping.

    LFR *is* that middle ground. You don't get to see all the mechanics, and you don't get the best loot.

    Making the art, and the level design of the dungeons cost a lot. There is no reason have dungeons only 10% get to see.

  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,627
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by luvbacon

      I will agree though that they have gone too far in the other direction.  Sure, in vanilla only the elite 10% got to see the content but now it's far to the other extreme.  The most casual of casual players is killing the end-of-tier boss every week in LFR.  There needs to be a middle ground where there are things only the most hard-core see, there is the bulk of the raid content that the average raid team can clear, and there are the things that the most casual of casual gets to see.  All with some overlap, but not everything overlapping.

    LFR *is* that middle ground. You don't get to see all the mechanics, and you don't get the best loot.

    Making the art, and the level design of the dungeons cost a lot. There is no reason have dungeons only 10% get to see.

    You are making an argument for a very narrow game here, 'everyone being able to see it' should not be the determining factor of game design. If you go down that route you would have no raids, no group content and nothing would need to be crafted. There has to be different gameplay for those who put the time in different areas. Otherwise you are going to get bored with the game candy very quickly.

    If you are the sort of person who does not raid, does not group and does not craft, I would put it to you that you would have already left the MMO. I see no point in putting all the design time into making areas for those who will leave in a couple of months regardless anyway.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,950
    Originally posted by petrus4
      Originally posted by Slampig I don't know but for some reason this post totally pisses me off.

     

    Is it perhaps because it is drawing attention to an entitlement complex?

    Bingo!

    I want a subscription. I want equal opportunity. I want to be able to work for something and get it where someone else doesn't want to put in the effort. If there is no hard work, then there is no reward...only welfare. Which is why players cancel in a month or 2. I am done with Virtual Online Communism.

     

    I mean really. If I buy an full access pass to Disney World and take my family there on vacation for a week. Do I really have the right to get pissed because I couldn't get to every attraction they have, because I can't take my kids on the attractions or I don't have the time to see it all?  Should I ask Disney to make a Theme Park that is more compact and has less to offer and is faster and easier to get through just so I can come home and say "Yep!.....Saw it all"? Or is it more fun to go back in a couple years and do it again but this time see what I missed the last time?

  • Jerek_Jerek_ tulsa, OKMember Posts: 409
    OP says "in the early days of MMO's" but actually means in EQ.  UO's content was much more accessible without causing all the doom and gloom he attributes to people wanting access to the content they paid for.  I believe if anything is absurd and contributing to the current state of the genre its the raiders first, screw everybody else mentality that is EQ's legacy.  There are ways to make challenging, engaging content without all the garbage that has come from developers being locked into raiding as endgame.
  • tank017tank017 Glendale, CAMember Posts: 2,192
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    With the recent post by Mark Kern regarding how the casualization or MMO's has essentially ruined the genre got me to thinking about what other aspects have contributed to the "ruining" of mmo's. Personally i believe the mentality of many of the players that because they pay $15 they should have access to every bit of content in the mmo is both absurd, and heavily contributed to the current state of the genre. We use the example of a gymnasium, but i think using an example of a themepark is a better idea. Lets take Disneyworld.  Most people schedule for multiple days when they vacation or visit.  They know that buying entrance for the themepark for one day is not enough time to experience all the things they want to do.  The average person knows that they're paying for ACCESS to all of the themeparks content, but that with their limited time, they are only able to partake in parts of it.   So, they know if they spend 2 hours watching the mickey mouse play with their kids, and then spend 2 hours on roller coaster, that they may not have time to go to the waterpark, etc. So, normal sane people understood in the early days of MMO's that it was the same way.  You didnt get to raid if you didnt want to spend 4-6 hours online at once.  Nobody begrudged the people who could.  They simply went on and did whatever else was available that was fun.  Whether that was crafting, running a dungeon, exploring, whatever.  Nobody begrudged the crafter who chose to spend his hours investing into crafting at the detriment of his character leveling, or raiding, etc. Instead, because of the influx of these content locusts casual players, who come in like a flock of squawking birds demanding that everything cater to them.  We have ourselves in our current situation. You complaining that leveling takes too long because you only have 2 hours a week to play is the same as expecting disney world to make their rollercoasters 1/3 of the length, so it only takes you 5 minutes to get through the rollercoaster instead of 15 minutes.  Or asking them to cut out important parts of the Mickey Mouse show, so its only 20 minutes instead of an hour long.  Its entitled and selfish, and it ruins the purity of the original material.  It dumbs it down, makes it worthless.  Its like trying to cram the entire lord of the rings into a 200 page book because you "dont have the time" to read the whole thing. So instead of being like normal, sane people, who take 2 or 3 months maybe to read through the whole lord of the rings, you instead feel like the author should be obligated to cut it down to make it more palatable for you.  In the process the thing is ruined.

    Its true..

     

    It makes me think of my time in EQ, I was in such a small,tight knit guild.We didnt have the numbers to experience everyhing in the game.We only went as far as The Plane of Fear as far as the Planes go.Yet no one cared,We did our dungeons,helped each other level and do quests and we were just as happy and content.

     

    Thats not to say I wasnt envious of people with the uberest gear hanging out in E Commons,but I never felt the sense of entitlement.I just went back to my own adventures and had fun.

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