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The target is a small audience: but how will that keep a PvP MMO like CU interesting long term

MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
The target is small audience for CU, but how will a small audience keep a PvP focused MMO interesting long term? Not like this game is f2p like GW2 was which has a lot to do with it retaining its PvP population.

 

But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

I can see this game getting very boring when population drops. And as that happens, more and more people will leave in a chain reaction.

 

PvP focused MMOs, need population to keep their interest. What's PvP without the "P"s.

 

Games like this should be aimed at greater sized audiences.

 

I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

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Comments

  • tinuelletinuelle bergenPosts: 287Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

    Even a dead squirrel with half a brain could come up with such a prophecy. Do better..... Predict what will be the bad game designs.

    When you leap after Nostradamus, do it properly.

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP

     

    That's not what the game is at all...

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 775Member Uncommon
    All I know is, they better not have the maps too large, because the last thing they need, is a very small playerbase spread out over a huge area.
  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,125Member Uncommon

    Hmm ... maybe something similar to Daoc which is 12 years old despite being managed horribly for many years.

     

    CU will be more about what works in RvR vs padding it with pointless pve grind. It only requires enough players to fill a very few servers. Having 20 servers vs 5 servers means nothing to each individual server.

    You stay sassy!

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,125Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tinuelle
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

    Even a dead squirrel with half a brain could come up with such a prophecy. Do better..... Predict what will be the bad game designs.

    When you leap after Nostradamus, do it properly.

    I've learned to ignore doomsayers (mostly). They predict doom and gloom only because they fear personal disappointment. They avoid it instead of facing up to it. These people live fearful lives and never try anything new because of it. Pity them ... don't mock them.

    You stay sassy!

  • ToxiaToxia Lake Charles, LAPosts: 1,319Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP

     

    That's not what the game is at all...

    Um...yes it is.

    Mark Jacobs: Camelot Unchained, unlike the vast majority of MMORPGs, is tightly focused and RvR-oriented. It will also draw a lot of inspiration from the works of people like H.P. Lovecraft and H.R. Giger rather than J.R.R. Tolkien. As all character leveling comes from RvR and crafting, it bears no resemblance to the modern, theme park-style titles.

    The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  • GhavriggGhavrigg Halifax, NSPosts: 775Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Toxia
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP

     

    That's not what the game is at all...

    Um...yes it is.

    Mark Jacobs: Camelot Unchained, unlike the vast majority of MMORPGs, is tightly focused and RvR-oriented. It will also draw a lot of inspiration from the works of people like H.P. Lovecraft and H.R. Giger rather than J.R.R. Tolkien. As all character leveling comes from RvR and crafting, it bears no resemblance to the modern, theme park-style titles.

    It's supposed to not be "non-stop PvP". There's likely to be some PvE with little to no rewards, but just for fun, as well as crafting and other crap.The majority of gameplay will be PvP, but there will be more to the game than that, or so MJ has said, at least.

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    PvP has a better chance of holding players' interest for a few years than PvE. I notice most PvE focused games see their population crater quickly after release because the devs can't add new PvE content faster than players can complete it. If the RvR system and progression are designed well in CU, it could be fun for several years at least. In an RvR game, players create their own content which is new every day you login. Will CU in fact be designed well? Get back to me in late 2015 and I'll give you an answer.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Toxia
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP

     

    That's not what the game is at all...

    Um...yes it is.

    Mark Jacobs: Camelot Unchained, unlike the vast majority of MMORPGs, is tightly focused and RvR-oriented.

    Except for the MASSIVE amount of crafting going on in the game, which last I checked did not fall under "non stop PvP". There are also going to be mobs to hunt for materials, and boss guardians to certain areas.

     

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Maybe the OP hasn't considered the implication of word "niche".  If the developer can fulfill that niche in manner that others don't (EVE does this imo) then there is an incentive for people to stay since they aren't going to get better anywhere else.  Why wouldn't they stay?  It's pretty much a win for both dev and player.
  • TuchakaTuchaka san diego, CAPosts: 468Member
       Plenty of MMO's have managed to have a few hundred thousand players actively playing I don't think the size of the target audience has anything to do with if people are gonna stick around and will a game having staying power. If this game has great PvP and gives the PvP community something that is better than the sea of PvE centered games with a PvP function tacked on, it will hang on to its player base.
  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    The target is small audience for CU, but how will a small audience keep a PvP focused MMO interesting long term? Not like this game is f2p like GW2 was which has a lot to do with it retaining its PvP population.

     

    But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

    I can see this game getting very boring when population drops. And as that happens, more and more people will leave in a chain reaction.

     

    PvP focused MMOs, need population to keep their interest. What's PvP without the "P"s.

     

    Games like this should be aimed at greater sized audiences.

     

    I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

    Troll threads like this are kinda pointless, now.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tuchaka
       Plenty of MMO's have managed to have a few hundred thousand players actively playing I don't think the size of the target audience has anything to do with if people are gonna stick around and will a game having staying power. If this game has great PvP and gives the PvP community something that is better than the sea of PvE centered games with a PvP function tacked on, it will hang on to its player base.

    Same issue most MMOs are facing now days will hit CU.

    some of those are:

     

    MMO Inflation-

    Payment Model Changing-

    Short Term vs Long Term Gameplay Designs-

     

    Currently there are too many MMOs coming out. This alone will take population away.

    The payment model.  Because of MMO Inflation, and limited gameplay of modern day MMOs, people dont stay long in P2P MMOs that arent Pre-WoW or WoW itself. People are more forgiving of MMOs now days if it doesnt have a sub requirement to play. Look at SWTOR and GW2 for evidence of this.

    And the gameplay. As I explained before, the PvP only design is proven not to be a good model for keeping population around. What happens when a faction gets too strong and outmans the other two? Fights get boring, and people leave. When people leave, the game gets more boring . Look at these weekly GW2 fights for evidence of this once again. Population controls PvP focused MMOs. And Population doesnt like to stick around when not having fun. Same issue plagued Warhammer. The Irony... Even your own DAoC fans been telling Mark and his CU staff this, but like in Warhammer, he and his staff refuse to listen to anything others have to say. He seem too bent on short term success. Same issue with Warhammer. Warhammer Warhammer Warhammer, you would think, after that crash, he would have learned by now, but hey, he hasnt. But not like he the only MMO developer that never learns lessons from past failures (EA, Failcom Sony come to mind).

     

    I wonder, Has Mark and his staff, even thought about what will keep players interested in playing long term, instead of quick log in sessions? Because when players arent deepy into the game, they will move on to the next big hype train. Thats just how their minds work. Developers now days seem to be too interested in short term goals and milking box sells rather than long term success. Oh well, in one eye and out the other.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    The target is small audience for CU, but how will a small audience keep a PvP focused MMO interesting long term? Not like this game is f2p like GW2 was which has a lot to do with it retaining its PvP population.

     

    But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

    I can see this game getting very boring when population drops. And as that happens, more and more people will leave in a chain reaction.

     

    PvP focused MMOs, need population to keep their interest. What's PvP without the "P"s.

     

    Games like this should be aimed at greater sized audiences.

     

    I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

    Troll threads like this are kinda pointless, now.

    go figure...

    image

  • MyownGodMyownGod SydneyPosts: 205Member
    Originally posted by tinuelle
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

    Even a dead squirrel with half a brain could come up with such a prophecy. Do better..... Predict what will be the bad game designs.

    When you leap after Nostradamus, do it properly.

    He's trying his best, no need to word bash him. Why don't you do it better, if ya gonna be a critic.

  • TaldierTaldier Camp Hill, PAPosts: 235Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    The target is small audience for CU, but how will a small audience keep a PvP focused MMO interesting long term? Not like this game is f2p like GW2 was which has a lot to do with it retaining its PvP population.

     

    But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

    I can see this game getting very boring when population drops. And as that happens, more and more people will leave in a chain reaction.

     

    PvP focused MMOs, need population to keep their interest. What's PvP without the "P"s.

     

    Games like this should be aimed at greater sized audiences.

     

    I predict a lot of bad game designs that will hold CU back from something of long term interest.

    A few things here.

     

    First of all I dont see it as "non-stop pvp".  To me that has a strong implication of constant meaningless combat simply for the sake of combat.  Thats not really what this is.  Its a player-driven world where three realms will be fighting each other over strategic territory and resources.

     

    Secondly, we simply have much lower population requirements than a PvE MMO.  There isnt instanced content like in other games.  Everyone on a server is out in the same open world PvPing over the same resources and objectives.  It doesnt take very many players to keep that interesting.

    Even the deadest of dead MMO servers I've played on had more than enough people to support interesting PvP action if 80+% of the online players werent always locked inside safe zones and instanced content.

     

    There is a sizable audience of players who have been looking for a specific type of game.  Nobody else is really providing that.  Those players arent going to randomly leave for no reason when there arent really any other games even trying to appeal to them.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,979Member Uncommon

    I'm currently playing on a single server version of an old game and the reason most of us are there is to do the long term PVP game while the PVE is looked at as something to get through so we can get busy killing each other.

    Some folks I'm playing with have been doing this for several years with no sign they want to leave any time soon. (Though they did switch realms just for fun, starting fresh in a new land)

    There is (IMO) a niche player base of people who don't want to the next big thing, they just want a quality game play experience that they can settle into for the long haul, which is clearly the target audience CU is after.

    To be sure, what CU is trying to do is an experiment and goes against the common "wisdom of the ages," and I'm hoping it works out well for all of us.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I wonder, Has Mark and his staff, even thought about what will keep players interested in playing long term, instead of quick log in sessions? Because when players arent deepy into the game, they will move on to the next big hype train. Thats just how their minds work. Developers now days seem to be too interested in short term goals and milking box sells rather than long term success. Oh well, in one eye and out the other.

    Yes, obviously they have thought about it. And as a result they scrapped PvE and withit the power gap, and only target a niche audience.

    Just ask youself.. why do ppl play just for a few month in usual themepark games?

    There are two answers to this question:

    1. they have rushed through the pve content and don't know what to do now.

    2. they did not like it and looking for the new game around the corner.

    You can't do anything against number 2, because some will try your game and don't like it and leave it at some point. But you can try to do something against number 1.

    A lot of developer at this moment try to avoid 1 with digging into a sandbox game and CU tries to focus on pvp. PvP gets never old as long as the game is fun.(bullet point: engaging and meaningful pvp) I have played DAoC for years just doing RvR. The same is true for Dawn of War.. i even play it now a days from time to time or any other game primarly focused on pvp. (CS, BF, LOL, etc.) And it is partially true for EvE (altough the sandbox factor in EvE is another reason for its longevity)

    And about the amount of players.

    How many players are necessary to fill one server? I would assume something around 5k to 10k of players. That is not really a lot and almost any niche game could get that much players. (EvE and DF are exceptions to that number because of size of their world). So the problem is not so much the amount of players and much more fluctuation of players. And pve games suffer much more from fluctuation as any pvp games... because either you like pvp and that particular pvp game or you don't. You can't rush through content, because basicly there is no content, or any content is created from players.

    With other words it would be healthy for CU not to market it big, not to hype it to heaven, not to attract a huge amount of player and just focus on there core members (kickstart founder or players attracted from that one), and build up slowly from that on.. to avoid a huge fluctuation based from reason 2.

    Edit/PS: Well as i mentioned power gap i should explain something about it.

    One important reason why pvp in mmos got a bad reputation or isnt reviewed as good is the typically power gap in MMOs and the problems, which come with it. Like low level ganking, or generally griefing player with less power like your self. In any usual pvp game (multiplayer) no one with a clear mind would introduce a power gap, because no one like it to get killed without the slightest chance of winning or at least fighting back.

    In MMOs it is rather hard to avoid a power gap foremost because of PvE and the necessary progression you need to drive the pve journey(gated content), but in a game without any pve you can focus primarly on pvp and adjust your progression accordingly. (basicly a lot more horizontal progression(more skills, more options) and just a very low vertical progression(increase of Hitpoints or Damage) ... as comparsion look at the progression system of Battlefield 3 or similar pvp games)

  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 London MIlls, ILPosts: 245Member Uncommon

    Honestly I don't think it will be that big of an issue. How many people does it REALLY take for good PVP.

     

    1000?

    2000?

    5000?

     

    Depends on the map size really. But I would think that with a 3 faction game that 300v300v300 would be plenatly of people. 

     

    If CU can run 6 servers of 10,000 people then great.  If they can only run 1 server of 10,000 people then great.

     

    The game will be a gamble no doubt but gaming is already moving away from copy pasted AAA titles to indy games. Why not do it with an independantly funded MMO studio.

     

    CU isn't going to be a AAA title. It's going to be AA at best and likely A.

     

    I see it going a bit like Eve online. The game will start with a small dedicated player base and will either grow because it's good or fail because it's bad. Just like games should.

     

     

  • NidwinNidwin LuxembourgPosts: 94Member

    It's easy mate.

     

    Core RvRers stay till they screw up the game or turn off the lights. Till today we have been screwed over and over again for  PVE/Raid/dungeon expansions.

     

    Fingers crossed on this one and I hope MJ has learn and understood it.

     

    Nidwinqq rr100 Magus till the end 18th December 2013

  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 London MIlls, ILPosts: 245Member Uncommon

    Yep. The entire game will be one realm building sandcastles and the other realms kicking them down.....

     

    Which is really alot more fun then it sounds.

  • ZinzanZinzan NorthPosts: 1,351Member

    The single biggest problem is the mmo industry is moving and evolving quite rapidly these days, I would say their biggest problem is what the state of the industry and gamin gin general is when they launch.

    GTA5 bust the $1bn mark in a matter of days, with the next gen consoles coming out, Steambox and technology moving at ever increasing pace it is entirely possible there might not be any significant PC gaming in three years from now.

    This could be good or bad, if the target is a small niche player base this might not effect or even possibly benefit CU even if the mmo industry as a whole is on its knees. However if the industry moves wholesale to consoles and mobile devices, CU might well find itself out in the cold.

     

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 London MIlls, ILPosts: 245Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zinzan

    The single biggest problem is the mmo industry is moving and evolving quite rapidly these days, I would say their biggest problem is what the state of the industry and gamin gin general is when they launch.

    GTA5 bust the $1bn mark in a matter of days, with the next gen consoles coming out, Steambox and technology moving at ever increasing pace it is entirely possible there might not be any significant PC gaming in three years from now.

    This could be good or bad, if the target is a small niche player base this might not effect or even possibly benefit CU even if the mmo industry as a whole is on its knees. However if the industry moves wholesale to consoles and mobile devices, CU might well find itself out in the cold.

     

    I don't buy it. consoles were supposed to destory the PC with the PS and N64. Then they were supposed to die with the Xbox and the PS2.....

     

    To be honest games like WoW, LoL, Dota 2, TF2 , Skyrim, and Minecraft have caused something of a PC renaissance. I think PC gaming is much better now then it was 5 years ago. With the price of next gen consoles growing it's soon going to be a wash between consoles and PC's. WHEN that happens(because it will happen) I think consoles will start to rapidly decline.

     

    In terms of CU? Three years is a long way off..... I think CU's biggest issue will be not aiming high enough for system reqs and graphics, not being slain by consoles.....

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    But with a game that is nothing but non stop PvP, (hey even the PvE is limited in this game and no solo content) 

     
    Both of these things are factually incorrect. And PvP games survive with low numbers, and slowly grow.
  • ray12kray12k riverside, CAPosts: 447Member

    When only .008% of  registered users log on to this site any given day...... How can anyone here really know what the majority of mmorpg'd want. I mean besides sales figures and subs being canceled. Oh and FTP games merging servers. And mind you most of the 100-200 who do log on never respond to a post ...

     

     

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