It is to be noted the most popular game in the world is a PvP game based on medieval fantasy. The most popular MMOs include both PvP and PvE elements.
If a game was pure PvP in this market it would fail. If a game was pure PvE in this market it would fail. PvP is just as important as PvE in the longevity of an MMO.
164 votes and exactly 50-50 .. That surprises me. Thought there was a lot more "carebears" out there.
No flaming intended.
For those who are familiar, this was basically the same sentiment in TERA when it first released. The TERA PvP servers were actually the more popular server upon release. But as indicated in an earlier thread, PvP servers are generally very popular initially until they begin to eat their own. In time, players begin complaining about being ganked, and class unbalancing, and how they weren't able to have peace while attempting to complete quests, and the myriad of problems that generally evolve as a result of PvP play.
Those of us who have been awhile and have repeatedly experienced the evolution can speak to it quite competently. This mentality is no different here, nor will it be any different in any other game in future game development. There are many players out there who like an element of PvP, but only when it suits their need. So that at first, the sound of open world non consensual PvP sounds great, until the game is released and they begin to experience the real pain that is open world non consensual PvP. It is at this time that they come to the game's forum in full force whining and complaining about everything and anything PvP. When the developers are to slow to address, or unable to address, their complaints they slowing migrate to the PvE servers leaving the PvP servers barren to the hard core PvP player.
It is a vicious cycle, and one that developers are quite aware of to be sure.
Rather than one game look at all of them. Of every MMO that has PvP and PvE servers look at the amounts and tell me which is preferred. Sure, that PvP server will be large but how big in relation to the combined of the others?
Two marbles each in 10 red cups is still more than the 10 in the one blue cup. The lie cup will be very full but still half the amount of marbles.
IMO the best solution is to have both styles coexist.
For those who are familiar, this was basically the same sentiment in TERA when it first released. The TERA PvP servers were actually the more popular server upon release.
Tera ignored the PvP community and lost them. They are trying to regain them now with more BGs and more world PvP including the upcoming alliance patch. You can't expect the PvP community to hang around without any content or meaningful PVP. They didn't even have BGs for a year and gave nothing for world PvP.
Rift also learned their lesson the hard way. Putting in world PvP a little too late.
As to the poll it shows IMO that people would tolerate open PvP if it meant playing EQN. Had the poll included actual preference you'd probably see a different outcome.
Originally posted by niceguy3978 I guess we all have different definitions of open PvP, but I consider it being able to go out and kill anybody I see. I'm not really for this, but I am for something more factional like Planetside 2 where I can kill anyone that isn't part of my side.
This is a sandbox. There will likely be no developer generated factions. Players are given the freedom to ally/faction with who they want.
Sandboxes have soft rules, guidelines more or less. There are consequences if those lines are crossed, not something saying "invalid target."
For those who are familiar, this was basically the same sentiment in TERA when it first released. The TERA PvP servers were actually the more popular server upon release.
Tera ignored the PvP community and lost them. They are trying to regain them now with more BGs and more world PvP including the upcoming alliance patch. You can't expect the PvP community to hang around without any content or meaningful PVP. They didn't even have BGs for a year and gave nothing for world PvP.
Rift also learned their lesson the hard way. Putting in world PvP a little too late.
You prove my point!
The truth of the matter is that PvPers are never satisfied. Look to any game's forums for your proof. Each and every one of them is a constant whine about one thing or another and the resulting claim that the PvP community is being ignored if the Devs don't move fast enouogh. When the reality is that their needs are too vast for developers to fulfill in any quantifiable manner. If it isn't balance (and this is never achieved) it is gear, if it isn't gear it is the variety in battlefields, if it isn't variety in battlefields its the constant nerf this op that, its .... just never ending whining!
Lets face it PvPers ... to deny the obvious is futile.
Allowing pvp into EQN is not a good idea at all. It will make all the classes "balanced" and there for no specializations will be possible. Class specialization is one thing that made eq awesome. The minute the devs try to appease the pvp crowd they will lose their game. I have never played eq for pvp...if they go that route it will leave me mystified and upset. They can set themselves apart from 90% of the other mmos (and still be true to EQ's roots) by NOT having pvp. Seriously, most games these days have pvp and its like playing the same game over and over with different skins. I'm sick to death of pvp games and sincerely hope EQ realizes that their loyal fans are mostly pver's and make a game for them. I don't know what SOE is gonna do, but if they include pvp in this game it will turn out to be just be another terd on the pile.
For those who are familiar, this was basically the same sentiment in TERA when it first released. The TERA PvP servers were actually the more popular server upon release.
Tera ignored the PvP community and lost them. They are trying to regain them now with more BGs and more world PvP including the upcoming alliance patch. You can't expect the PvP community to hang around without any content or meaningful PVP. They didn't even have BGs for a year and gave nothing for world PvP.
Rift also learned their lesson the hard way. Putting in world PvP a little too late.
You prove my point!
The truth of the matter is that PvPers are never satisfied. Look to any game's forums for your proof. Each and every one of them is a constant whine about one thing or another and the resulting claim that the PvP community is being ignored if the Devs don't move fast enouogh. When the reality is that their needs are too vast for developers to fulfill in any quantifiable manner. If it isn't balance (and this is never achieved) it is gear, if it isn't gear it is the variety in battlefields, if it isn't variety in battlefields its the constant nerf this op that, its .... just never ending whining!
Lets face it PvPers ... to deny the obvious is futile.
Actually the MMO community constantly whines. It isn't just the PvP community. I hear just as much cries about someones DPS being not good enough. Or their healing spec not powerful enough in raids.
All you complaints are about MMO players not just PvP players. Regardless, most MMO players do both PvP and PvE. The ones that only PvP or only PvE are extremely small.
So if all of you people are being ganked as 99.9% of you claim, who is doing the ganking? Many of you have no idea what gank, ganked, and ganking actually means from many posts I have read here.
I am a hardcore crafter, usualy always got my head in the crafting and selling aspect of many mmorpg's. But as a crafter I need a break and pvp is that break, along with exploration and social aspects. But pvp is a great get away from the norm. And in the 10+ years I have been playing mmorpg's I rarely get ganked. Im observant and pay attention to my surroundings, and often roll with a group.
Its funny how you guys are always ganked and farmed, kinda tells me you are doing something wrong. PVP can be fun if there is meaning, and you can not get meaningful pvp and territory control in a damn instance or arena.
Yes even as a crafter I play heavy pvp games, because its fun. To see if I can survive and out-wit another player and get away. The challenge is fighting against other humans not the AI. I play mmorpg's for the challenge and to pit my wisdom and skill versus another great player.
What is always interesting in these types of threads is how whereas the general feeling amongst PvE players is that of being generally overwhelmingly for separate PvE and PvP servers, PvP players generally argue against separate servers. So whereas PvE players express a mentality of compromise in that we can have our server and you can have yours, PvP players express one of no you will not have your own server, you will be forced unto our server and fulfill the role of being the involuntary victim of our psychopathic behavior thereby increasing our fun factor. The fact that it is not fun for you is highly irrelevant.
Another reason is, of course, that without the constant pool feed of PvE centric players most MMORPGs that have PvP elements eventually flutter and die. In other words, whereas PvE players can do just fine without PvP players, PvP players know they can not survive without PvE players, and they know it.
This read is always quite entertaining.
Carry on.
Oh please, it should be obvious. Not wanting pve servers could not have anything to do with wanting a game that is designed AROUND pvp itself - right? Kinda like most "pvp only server" games are designed....
Ya know, in which non-pvp servers would not work because you would have to design a 1/2 different game?
Conversly, its fine to pick and choose which servers you disable pvp on, when the games economy; main features; etc are not designed around pvp in the first place....
Thats the difference between a pvp centered mmo and a pvp casual mmo. Your welcome.
For those who are familiar, this was basically the same sentiment in TERA when it first released. The TERA PvP servers were actually the more popular server upon release.
Tera ignored the PvP community and lost them. They are trying to regain them now with more BGs and more world PvP including the upcoming alliance patch. You can't expect the PvP community to hang around without any content or meaningful PVP. They didn't even have BGs for a year and gave nothing for world PvP.
Rift also learned their lesson the hard way. Putting in world PvP a little too late.
You prove my point!
The truth of the matter is that PvPers are never satisfied. Look to any game's forums for your proof. Each and every one of them is a constant whine about one thing or another and the resulting claim that the PvP community is being ignored if the Devs don't move fast enouogh. When the reality is that their needs are too vast for developers to fulfill in any quantifiable manner. If it isn't balance (and this is never achieved) it is gear, if it isn't gear it is the variety in battlefields, if it isn't variety in battlefields its the constant nerf this op that, its .... just never ending whining!
Lets face it PvPers ... to deny the obvious is futile.
Actually the MMO community constantly whines. It isn't just the PvP community. I hear just as much cries about someones DPS being not good enough. Or their healing spec not powerful enough in raids.
All you complaints are about MMO players not just PvP players. Regardless, most MMO players do both PvP and PvE. The ones that only PvP or only PvE are extremely small.
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
What is always interesting in these types of threads is how whereas the general feeling amongst PvE players is that of being generally overwhelmingly for separate PvE and PvP servers, PvP players generally argue against separate servers. So whereas PvE players express a mentality of compromise in that we can have our server and you can have yours, PvP players express one of no you will not have your own server, you will be forced unto our server and fulfill the role of being the involuntary victim of our psychopathic behavior thereby increasing our fun factor. The fact that it is not fun for you is highly irrelevant.
Another reason is, of course, that without the constant pool feed of PvE centric players most MMORPGs that have PvP elements eventually flutter and die. In other words, whereas PvE players can do just fine without PvP players, PvP players know they can not survive without PvE players, and they know it.
This read is always quite entertaining.
Carry on.
Oh please, it should be obvious. Not wanting pve servers could not have anything to do with wanting a game that is designed AROUND pvp itself - right? Kinda like most "pvp only server" games are designed....
Name ONE "pvp only server" MMORPG game ...
Exactly.
Everything else in your post is irrelevant as a result.
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
That is completely false. Seems like a lot of PvE players like you just want to blame PvP players for everything, including when PvE players whine about balance. There are complaints from PvE players over many things, be it leveling taking to long, or bosses being to hard or too easy, or their class not being viable, or they want more solo content or more group content, or they are not engaged enough, the list goes on. All of this is completely independent from PvP.
A successful MMO cannot exist with only one element. People want complexity and as time goes on they want more of it. PvE only MMOs will be niche, PvP only MMOs will be niche.
Yes even as a crafter I play heavy pvp games, because its fun. To see if I can survive and out-wit another player and get away. The challenge is fighting against other humans not the AI. I play mmorpg's for the challenge and to pit my wisdom and skill versus another great player.
You seem to be trying to come off "as a crafter" first who relaxes with a small bit of pvp but that doesn't really tell the story. (edited for clarity)
You are a pvp player. Right down to the nuts and bolts. How you choose to express that pvp is mostly through the market and with a little combat.
But you are a pvp player.
There is a difference between a crafter who is "a pvp player" and a crafter who is "a pve player".
As far as your last part, "you play to beat humans, not the ai and for the challenge". I hope you aren't assuming that others care about the challenge or even beating AI combatants.
I suspect that pve players who enjoy pve combat are looking at it from a more "storied" slant over "I need to have challenging difficult AI combat".
Not everyone of course but I would bet a good many to most.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What is always interesting in these types of threads is how whereas the general feeling amongst PvE players is that of being generally overwhelmingly for separate PvE and PvP servers, PvP players generally argue against separate servers. So whereas PvE players express a mentality of compromise in that we can have our server and you can have yours, PvP players express one of no you will not have your own server, you will be forced unto our server and fulfill the role of being the involuntary victim of our psychopathic behavior thereby increasing our fun factor. The fact that it is not fun for you is highly irrelevant.
Another reason is, of course, that without the constant pool feed of PvE centric players most MMORPGs that have PvP elements eventually flutter and die. In other words, whereas PvE players can do just fine without PvP players, PvP players know they can not survive without PvE players, and they know it.
This read is always quite entertaining.
Carry on.
Oh please, it should be obvious. Not wanting pve servers could not have anything to do with wanting a game that is designed AROUND pvp itself - right? Kinda like most "pvp only server" games are designed....
Name ONE "pvp only server" MMORPG game ...
Exactly.
Everything else in your post is irrelevant as a result.
Lineage 2, one of, if not the most pvp centered mmos designed. I can name 20 emulated L2 private servers off the top of my head that have thousands++ of players logged on at this very moment - on each server. The large majority of L2 players choose private servers because they prefer earlier versions of the game when it was even more pvp centric than it is now. When accounting private servers, world-wide, L2 is one of the most played mmorpgs out there. - easily. Oh, and its like 10 years old - going strong.
So if all of you people are being ganked as 99.9% of you claim, who is doing the ganking? Many of you have no idea what gank, ganked, and ganking actually means from many posts I have read here.
I am a hardcore crafter, usualy always got my head in the crafting and selling aspect of many mmorpg's. But as a crafter I need a break and pvp is that break, along with exploration and social aspects. But pvp is a great get away from the norm. And in the 10+ years I have been playing mmorpg's I rarely get ganked. Im observant and pay attention to my surroundings, and often roll with a group.
Its funny how you guys are always ganked and farmed, kinda tells me you are doing something wrong. PVP can be fun if there is meaning, and you can not get meaningful pvp and territory control in a damn instance or arena.
Yes even as a crafter I play heavy pvp games, because its fun. To see if I can survive and out-wit another player and get away. The challenge is fighting against other humans not the AI. I play mmorpg's for the challenge and to pit my wisdom and skill versus another great player.
OK it's fun for you...Good!...And I swear I mean that sincerely...We have a saying in our Guild..."It's your game!" Meaning play it the way you want to play it...Have fun the way YOU like to have fun...And we have plenty of folks who LOVE PvP...
But PvP is not fun for everybody...And the typical "you're not doing it right" is a perfect example of what I'll never understand about some of you who love PvP so much...Why can't you simply understand some people don't like it, don't want to do it, and have no interest in it? It's not about what PvE players can do to change their PvP experience, because if they prefer a PvE ruleset, and they don't want to PvP, it's their game...Why is it I feel like some of you want to cram PvP down the throats of anyone who dare say they just would rather not? I really don't get it...Every game is going to have some PvP...Every game is going to have PvP servers...Why insist on more from folks who don't want any in the the name of what is meaningful and what is not?...If you don't want to PvP it matters not if it's meaningful or completely meaningless...If you don't want to do something, or if some aspect like their definition of getting ganked makes it a deal-breaker for them...So be it...What do you care?
All I'm saying is you can't convert someone who does not want to be converted...Nor should you even want to...To each his own...It's cool that you like PvP, and it's totally cool that you express that...But as soon as you cross over into the "kinda tells me your doing something wrong" area...Well...It's just the same old, same old...I've been MMO-ing for well over a decade now and these arguments never change...It's the exact same thing it's always been...And the simplest solution has always been different rulesets and different servers...Choice...To each his own...
What is always interesting in these types of threads is how whereas the general feeling amongst PvE players is that of being generally overwhelmingly for separate PvE and PvP servers, PvP players generally argue against separate servers. So whereas PvE players express a mentality of compromise in that we can have our server and you can have yours, PvP players express one of no you will not have your own server, you will be forced unto our server and fulfill the role of being the involuntary victim of our psychopathic behavior thereby increasing our fun factor. The fact that it is not fun for you is highly irrelevant.
Another reason is, of course, that without the constant pool feed of PvE centric players most MMORPGs that have PvP elements eventually flutter and die. In other words, whereas PvE players can do just fine without PvP players, PvP players know they can not survive without PvE players, and they know it.
This read is always quite entertaining.
Carry on.
Oh please, it should be obvious. Not wanting pve servers could not have anything to do with wanting a game that is designed AROUND pvp itself - right? Kinda like most "pvp only server" games are designed....
Name ONE "pvp only server" MMORPG game ...
Exactly.
Everything else in your post is irrelevant as a result.
Lineage 2, one of, if not the most pvp centered mmos designed. I can name 20 emulated L2 private servers off the top of my head that have thousands++ of players logged on at this very moment - on each server. The large majority of L2 players choose private servers because they prefer earlier versions of the game when it was even more pvp centric than it is now. When accounting private servers, world-wide, L2 is one of the most played mmorpgs out there. - easily. Oh, and its like 10 years old - going strong.
Comments
It is to be noted the most popular game in the world is a PvP game based on medieval fantasy. The most popular MMOs include both PvP and PvE elements.
If a game was pure PvP in this market it would fail. If a game was pure PvE in this market it would fail. PvP is just as important as PvE in the longevity of an MMO.
Darkfall?
You think that is the most popular game in the world?
It's the only medieval PVP MMO I know frankly.
The only PvE MMO I know is FFXIV 1.0 and Vanguard frankly. I said game, read my quote again.
For those who are familiar, this was basically the same sentiment in TERA when it first released. The TERA PvP servers were actually the more popular server upon release. But as indicated in an earlier thread, PvP servers are generally very popular initially until they begin to eat their own. In time, players begin complaining about being ganked, and class unbalancing, and how they weren't able to have peace while attempting to complete quests, and the myriad of problems that generally evolve as a result of PvP play.
Those of us who have been awhile and have repeatedly experienced the evolution can speak to it quite competently. This mentality is no different here, nor will it be any different in any other game in future game development. There are many players out there who like an element of PvP, but only when it suits their need. So that at first, the sound of open world non consensual PvP sounds great, until the game is released and they begin to experience the real pain that is open world non consensual PvP. It is at this time that they come to the game's forum in full force whining and complaining about everything and anything PvP. When the developers are to slow to address, or unable to address, their complaints they slowing migrate to the PvE servers leaving the PvP servers barren to the hard core PvP player.
It is a vicious cycle, and one that developers are quite aware of to be sure.
Two marbles each in 10 red cups is still more than the 10 in the one blue cup. The lie cup will be very full but still half the amount of marbles.
IMO the best solution is to have both styles coexist.
Tera ignored the PvP community and lost them. They are trying to regain them now with more BGs and more world PvP including the upcoming alliance patch. You can't expect the PvP community to hang around without any content or meaningful PVP. They didn't even have BGs for a year and gave nothing for world PvP.
Rift also learned their lesson the hard way. Putting in world PvP a little too late.
if its not full loot then there is no point to open world non consensual pvp
actually this poll and comments are moot. it will have pvp and pve servers
lack of risk and metagaming behind pvp....sigh...so dull
This is a sandbox. There will likely be no developer generated factions. Players are given the freedom to ally/faction with who they want.
Sandboxes have soft rules, guidelines more or less. There are consequences if those lines are crossed, not something saying "invalid target."
You prove my point!
The truth of the matter is that PvPers are never satisfied. Look to any game's forums for your proof. Each and every one of them is a constant whine about one thing or another and the resulting claim that the PvP community is being ignored if the Devs don't move fast enouogh. When the reality is that their needs are too vast for developers to fulfill in any quantifiable manner. If it isn't balance (and this is never achieved) it is gear, if it isn't gear it is the variety in battlefields, if it isn't variety in battlefields its the constant nerf this op that, its .... just never ending whining!
Lets face it PvPers ... to deny the obvious is futile.
Actually the MMO community constantly whines. It isn't just the PvP community. I hear just as much cries about someones DPS being not good enough. Or their healing spec not powerful enough in raids.
All you complaints are about MMO players not just PvP players. Regardless, most MMO players do both PvP and PvE. The ones that only PvP or only PvE are extremely small.
So if all of you people are being ganked as 99.9% of you claim, who is doing the ganking? Many of you have no idea what gank, ganked, and ganking actually means from many posts I have read here.
I am a hardcore crafter, usualy always got my head in the crafting and selling aspect of many mmorpg's. But as a crafter I need a break and pvp is that break, along with exploration and social aspects. But pvp is a great get away from the norm. And in the 10+ years I have been playing mmorpg's I rarely get ganked. Im observant and pay attention to my surroundings, and often roll with a group.
Its funny how you guys are always ganked and farmed, kinda tells me you are doing something wrong. PVP can be fun if there is meaning, and you can not get meaningful pvp and territory control in a damn instance or arena.
Yes even as a crafter I play heavy pvp games, because its fun. To see if I can survive and out-wit another player and get away. The challenge is fighting against other humans not the AI. I play mmorpg's for the challenge and to pit my wisdom and skill versus another great player.
Basically...
Oh please, it should be obvious. Not wanting pve servers could not have anything to do with wanting a game that is designed AROUND pvp itself - right? Kinda like most "pvp only server" games are designed....
Ya know, in which non-pvp servers would not work because you would have to design a 1/2 different game?
Conversly, its fine to pick and choose which servers you disable pvp on, when the games economy; main features; etc are not designed around pvp in the first place....
Thats the difference between a pvp centered mmo and a pvp casual mmo. Your welcome.
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
Name ONE "pvp only server" MMORPG game ...
Exactly.
Everything else in your post is irrelevant as a result.
That is completely false. Seems like a lot of PvE players like you just want to blame PvP players for everything, including when PvE players whine about balance. There are complaints from PvE players over many things, be it leveling taking to long, or bosses being to hard or too easy, or their class not being viable, or they want more solo content or more group content, or they are not engaged enough, the list goes on. All of this is completely independent from PvP.
A successful MMO cannot exist with only one element. People want complexity and as time goes on they want more of it. PvE only MMOs will be niche, PvP only MMOs will be niche.
You seem to be trying to come off "as a crafter" first who relaxes with a small bit of pvp but that doesn't really tell the story. (edited for clarity)
You are a pvp player. Right down to the nuts and bolts. How you choose to express that pvp is mostly through the market and with a little combat.
But you are a pvp player.
There is a difference between a crafter who is "a pvp player" and a crafter who is "a pve player".
As far as your last part, "you play to beat humans, not the ai and for the challenge". I hope you aren't assuming that others care about the challenge or even beating AI combatants.
I suspect that pve players who enjoy pve combat are looking at it from a more "storied" slant over "I need to have challenging difficult AI combat".
Not everyone of course but I would bet a good many to most.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Lineage 2, one of, if not the most pvp centered mmos designed. I can name 20 emulated L2 private servers off the top of my head that have thousands++ of players logged on at this very moment - on each server. The large majority of L2 players choose private servers because they prefer earlier versions of the game when it was even more pvp centric than it is now. When accounting private servers, world-wide, L2 is one of the most played mmorpgs out there. - easily. Oh, and its like 10 years old - going strong.
Logic = Irrelevant. Thats a new one for me.
OK it's fun for you...Good!...And I swear I mean that sincerely...We have a saying in our Guild..."It's your game!" Meaning play it the way you want to play it...Have fun the way YOU like to have fun...And we have plenty of folks who LOVE PvP...
But PvP is not fun for everybody...And the typical "you're not doing it right" is a perfect example of what I'll never understand about some of you who love PvP so much...Why can't you simply understand some people don't like it, don't want to do it, and have no interest in it? It's not about what PvE players can do to change their PvP experience, because if they prefer a PvE ruleset, and they don't want to PvP, it's their game...Why is it I feel like some of you want to cram PvP down the throats of anyone who dare say they just would rather not? I really don't get it...Every game is going to have some PvP...Every game is going to have PvP servers...Why insist on more from folks who don't want any in the the name of what is meaningful and what is not?...If you don't want to PvP it matters not if it's meaningful or completely meaningless...If you don't want to do something, or if some aspect like their definition of getting ganked makes it a deal-breaker for them...So be it...What do you care?
All I'm saying is you can't convert someone who does not want to be converted...Nor should you even want to...To each his own...It's cool that you like PvP, and it's totally cool that you express that...But as soon as you cross over into the "kinda tells me your doing something wrong" area...Well...It's just the same old, same old...I've been MMO-ing for well over a decade now and these arguments never change...It's the exact same thing it's always been...And the simplest solution has always been different rulesets and different servers...Choice...To each his own...
Wushu - Not full loot
EVE - Full loot
that's 3.