I guess maybe I was playing on a bad server i don't know but I never got a good vibe from the FFXI community.
The FFXI community was wonderful prior to server transfers, which i believe began in 2006. At the same time, you're trying to get really old content done that I'm sure long time players are absolutely tired of doing.
In breaking news people like feedback on things they are good at and dislike feedback on things they are bad at.
I like dps/hps meters feedback I've used them to improve my rotation consistency or timings in the past. While people spamming them or THAT guy who keeps asking for the meters even though he very well knows he's on top because he has them installed annoy me the overall good they provide ME is worth it.
I've ran a Guild and been a raid leader and I don't know how Guilds with no information make adjustments to get a task done when their is no information on who isn't performing their task. It all comes down to HOW the feedback is given.
You do make valide points. But I think the biggest concern is that in general, dps meter trends in games have been more negitive than positive. The example you give is a GOOD one, but unfortunetly , very few and far between.
I liked using my dps meter in WoW, but for MY personal use, to see how I was performing, just to give ME and idea. The other thing we have to look at is the casual/gamer who is not one who trys to Stat crunch but enjoys playing the game, witch is what playing a game is for too.
So say at the end of Dungeon Run with no wipes ,I look at my Dps meter. and party member 1 did 28%, Im did 24% and dps'er #3 did 12%...BUT threw the whole run did not slack off once or miss rotation, or what ever else you want to trhow in there. should that player be ashamed of their dps, booted, criticized about it?
I'm torn on the issue. I hope that hundreds of addons don't become the norm like in WoW, where you basically needed to install an entire suite of addon software to raid.
On the other hand, I don't see the issue with DPS meters myself. The two groups that they would impact are:
1) Players who do not understand the basics of their class or the basic game mechanics, and so are unable to contribute and play their part in a group.
2) Players who are in a group with random elitist jerks they don't know who make a big deal out of someone doing 10.74% less damage on a boss fight.
If you are in group 1) then you should take the opportunity to seek out experienced, knowledgeable players to improve your own gameplay. If you are in group 2) then you should take the opportunity to seek out mature players to improve the game experience, which is what FF is all about.
i pretty much agree with this, even gearscore though it was used by lazy people wasn't that bad.
You still need a way to judge performance, it's when people don't really understand the tools that problems happen.
I had a different experience, I was in a Raid PUG ( before raid and dungeon finder) and ppl were just waiting for the numbers to fill up for Nax, I had more than sufficient spellpower according to the Elitist Jerks recommended for locks but during the wait some random looked me up on the armoury and started sperging about me having a green item. In retrospect I should have just swapped it out for a blue of lower iLvL and the raid leader even apologised to me but I had to leave.
The hard thing is designing a game so avoid these sort of things.
Edit: now I'm not even sure why a game designer *should* try to design these things out
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Originally posted by zaylin So say at the end of Dungeon Run with no wipes ,I look at my Dps meter. and party member 1 did 28%, Im did 24% and dps'er #3 did 12%...BUT threw the whole run did not slack off once or miss rotation, or what ever else you want to trhow in there. should that player be ashamed of their dps, booted, criticized about it?
First and foremost, what is their gear like? In these gear dependent MMOs someone with low end gear is not going to do as much damage as someone in high end gear. I would never criticize someone for having low end gear because Ive been there myself.
What class are they? Some classes/specs do not do as much damage as other classes. MMOs always have balance issues and those issues can lead to classes doing significantly more damage than other classes. Again, its not their fault.
How are they gearing? Are they focusing on the right stats?
What is their rotation? Are they using the right attacks for their spec?
These are 2 areas in which you can offer advice but most people will take it as a personal insult even if you are as tactful as possible.
Again, there is more to DPS meters than just numbers.
seriously.. meters are invaluable to raiders and players who take their classes seriously and want to play their characters as efficiently and powerfully as possible. They're the best gauge of what is needed to overcome PVE and PVP obstacles. So ignore them if you want but if FF XIV AAR has any depth or challenge in it.. then meters will be important. Im sure there are plenty of casual corners for you to hang out at.
if youre worried about people calling you a baddie and suckzor... then dont be one.
Mods in WoW allowed raiders to up their game considerably, which meant Blizzard had to design more and more complicated fights.
Sounds good right?
Well it was at first - but then they really couldn't add any more complexity, so they started just making fights resemble a dance number to memorize steps more than an MMORPG raid boss.
Once these mods became required in order to know the dance moves, Blizzard had to start making the bosses telegraph their dance moves all on their own - which actually made things even easier.
It's just a downward spiral.
Anyone who played WoW for a while knows what GearScore and Quest Helper and all those kinds of mods led to.
Keep non-cosmetic mods out of MMO's please.
Amen to the above. I utterly loathe the addon situation in WoW and really don't want to see the same thing happen for FFXIV.
Just because mods caused problems in 1 mmo (wow) does not imply they cause problems in all mmos. There are plenty of other examples of mmo's that have mods but have not gone the way of wow.
I'm torn on the issue. I hope that hundreds of addons don't become the norm like in WoW, where you basically needed to install an entire suite of addon software to raid.
On the other hand, I don't see the issue with DPS meters myself. The two groups that they would impact are:
1) Players who do not understand the basics of their class or the basic game mechanics, and so are unable to contribute and play their part in a group.
2) Players who are in a group with random elitist jerks they don't know who make a big deal out of someone doing 10.74% less damage on a boss fight.
If you are in group 1) then you should take the opportunity to seek out experienced, knowledgeable players to improve your own gameplay. If you are in group 2) then you should take the opportunity to seek out mature players to improve the game experience, which is what FF is all about.
i pretty much agree with this, even gearscore though it was used by lazy people wasn't that bad.
You still need a way to judge performance, it's when people don't really understand the tools that problems happen.
I had a different experience, I was in a Raid PUG ( before raid and dungeon finder) and ppl were just waiting for the numbers to fill up for Nax, I had more than sufficient spellpower according to the Elitist Jerks recommended for locks but during the wait some random looked me up on the armoury and started sperging about me having a green item. In retrospect I should have just swapped it out for a blue of lower iLvL and the raid leader even apologised to me but I had to leave.
The hard thing is designing a game so avoid these sort of things.
Edit: now I'm not even sure why a game designer *should* try to design these things out
Wow, that is truly ridiculous. Guys like that have to have no life outside of the game they play.
I swear the gaming atmosphere didn't seem anywhere near that elitist back when I first starting getting into mmorpgs. When and why did that change to such an extreme? A rhetorical question, but one that I still ponder.
Wow, that is truly ridiculous. Guys like that have to have no life outside of the game they play.
I swear the gaming atmosphere didn't seem anywhere near that elitist back when I first starting getting into mmorpgs. When and why did that change to such an extreme? A rhetorical question, but one that I still ponder.
I really hate to say it. But back when Muds/Ultima Online and Everquest were coming out. Most of the players were adults. Adults were the only ones, for the most part back then who could afford home PCs to play the online games. And a lot of them came from a Pencil&Paper backgrounds, you know where everyone got together to have Fun&Adventures. And just to clarify I do not have issues playing with the younger crowd .
I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and hopefully mods are off the table entirely. A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.
The thought of chat filling up with things like "post deeps bro" or " what class brings the most dps" makes my excitement die a little. I can remember great times in Yuhtunga Jungle way back in the day of camping out with a good group and exping off of mobs. No one cared about dps. The thrill was getting that awesome group that clicked.
Final Fantasy is about the story, the journey, and exploration. Final Fantasy XI captured that excellently and we were able to share it others. It wasn't about dividing and competing against people. I hope this mentality carries over into the ARR. I am concerned that it is going to attract a crowd that it is not aimed for.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with those types of games or gamers; It just doesn't fit the FF world. I am worried people will try to force it in, and Square will listen.
Maybe I just need to get in a good, mature linkshell with people from FFXI.
I really really disagree with this..... DPS meters for me at least help improve myself. I could care less how much I'm beating someone. I like to do the best at what I'm doing. So what if I'm a number cruncher, why should this effect you? Maybe just don't download it? You do have options you realize.
He doesn't have much of an option when it comes to the others that download it, obsess over their DPS and start wiping groups because they're too concerned about their numbers... That's the real issue with DPS meters; they cause people to start thinking that DPS is the most important thing, and maybe in WoW it was considering tanks never lost threat, but in this game if any DPS pumps out 100% of their potential they will pull threat and get killed. They simply serve no purpose in this game and will encourage bad play.
That all depends on the player. Everyone should understand your dps = 0 when you're dead. So pulling aggro, or dying should be the number one thing you try not to do. So in the end it's up to the player dps meter or not isn't going to fix that.
DPS meters actively encourage players to take stupid risks in order to better their DPS score. Yes it depends on the player but DPS meters essentially discourage a team focus and make everything about personal gain. It also causes tunnel vision on the 'rotation' making players blind to what's going on around them.
It just makes it TOO tempting for a lot of players to push their luck that bit further to get a higher score... usually at the cost of them getting killed or often wiping the group.
An that's why you make friends with one of the healers in your guild and let them know in a separate voice chat that you're going to blow some CDs watch my HP, and boom you can top charts for both you're dps and his/her healing. Works out great.
Wow, that is truly ridiculous. Guys like that have to have no life outside of the game they play.
I swear the gaming atmosphere didn't seem anywhere near that elitist back when I first starting getting into mmorpgs. When and why did that change to such an extreme? A rhetorical question, but one that I still ponder.
I really hate to say it. But back when Muds/Ultima Online and Everquest were coming out. Most of the players were adults. Adults were the only ones, for the most part back then who could afford home PCs to play the online games. And a lot of them came from a Pencil&Paper backgrounds, you know where everyone got together to have Fun&Adventures. And just to clarify I do not have issues playing with the younger crowd .
That's a good point, although I can't really say much as I was only around 15 back when I got into EQ, heh. I was always respectful though, and would have never even considered the idea of kicking someone out of a group for something as petty as a piece of gear they were wearing - heck, I wouldn't kick someone out period, unless they were being jerks.
To me, it's all about fun and it always will be, but there seems to be more and more people out there who care more about turning the genre into an exercise in arithmetic, rather than playing games for what they are. I guess the number crunching thing is fun for some, but when taken to the extreme, it seems to bring out the worst in people.
Everything in moderation people. I would definitely kick someone if they came to a group endgame with a bunch of crap gear because they were too lazy to go out and do what they needed to get it.
However, on the same token...I'm, not going to kick someone who say (ffxi), doesn't have Kirin's Osode, or something to that effect.
Realistic expectations are a good thing. If nobody cared what gear you wore AT ALL you would never have those amazing parties that got you great xp, or cleared that really damn difficult boss that nobody seemed to be able to pull off no matter how well they played.
With that you will always have the EPEEN'ers. It's just different personalities. And that won't change. And that's good, because it gives those in the middle something to shoot for, and ensures that the people on the opposite end of the spectrum are putting the work in to at least be decent.
Also, with regards to the people "getting tunnel vision". This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Really? So because there's a DPS meter suddenly everyone is going to be wiping parties? No.
Simply put, you've had bad experiences with people trying to go too hard in order to maximize their dps. First of all, not everyone is going to do that. Secondly, as previously stated, dead= 0 dps, so getting themselves killed is counter-intuitive to that entire mindset. Third, if the person doesn't suck, YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THEY WERE TRYING. Why? Because they wouldn't cause a wipe or disruption to the party and you dont like DPS mods so you wouldn't know what their dps was >.>
Comments
The FFXI community was wonderful prior to server transfers, which i believe began in 2006. At the same time, you're trying to get really old content done that I'm sure long time players are absolutely tired of doing.
You do make valide points. But I think the biggest concern is that in general, dps meter trends in games have been more negitive than positive. The example you give is a GOOD one, but unfortunetly , very few and far between.
I liked using my dps meter in WoW, but for MY personal use, to see how I was performing, just to give ME and idea. The other thing we have to look at is the casual/gamer who is not one who trys to Stat crunch but enjoys playing the game, witch is what playing a game is for too.
So say at the end of Dungeon Run with no wipes ,I look at my Dps meter. and party member 1 did 28%, Im did 24% and dps'er #3 did 12%...BUT threw the whole run did not slack off once or miss rotation, or what ever else you want to trhow in there. should that player be ashamed of their dps, booted, criticized about it?
i pretty much agree with this, even gearscore though it was used by lazy people wasn't that bad.
You still need a way to judge performance, it's when people don't really understand the tools that problems happen.
I had a different experience, I was in a Raid PUG ( before raid and dungeon finder) and ppl were just waiting for the numbers to fill up for Nax, I had more than sufficient spellpower according to the Elitist Jerks recommended for locks but during the wait some random looked me up on the armoury and started sperging about me having a green item. In retrospect I should have just swapped it out for a blue of lower iLvL and the raid leader even apologised to me but I had to leave.
The hard thing is designing a game so avoid these sort of things.
Edit: now I'm not even sure why a game designer *should* try to design these things out
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
I would never criticize someone for having low end gear because Ive been there myself.
What class are they? Some classes/specs do not do as much damage as other classes. MMOs always have balance issues and those issues can lead to classes doing significantly more damage than other classes. Again, its not their fault.
How are they gearing? Are they focusing on the right stats?
What is their rotation? Are they using the right attacks for their spec?
These are 2 areas in which you can offer advice but most people will take it as a personal insult even if you are as tactful as possible.
Again, there is more to DPS meters than just numbers.
@OP... stop sucking
seriously.. meters are invaluable to raiders and players who take their classes seriously and want to play their characters as efficiently and powerfully as possible. They're the best gauge of what is needed to overcome PVE and PVP obstacles. So ignore them if you want but if FF XIV AAR has any depth or challenge in it.. then meters will be important. Im sure there are plenty of casual corners for you to hang out at.
if youre worried about people calling you a baddie and suckzor... then dont be one.
Amen to the above. I utterly loathe the addon situation in WoW and really don't want to see the same thing happen for FFXIV.
Wow, that is truly ridiculous. Guys like that have to have no life outside of the game they play.
I swear the gaming atmosphere didn't seem anywhere near that elitist back when I first starting getting into mmorpgs. When and why did that change to such an extreme? A rhetorical question, but one that I still ponder.
I really hate to say it. But back when Muds/Ultima Online and Everquest were coming out. Most of the players were adults. Adults were the only ones, for the most part back then who could afford home PCs to play the online games. And a lot of them came from a Pencil&Paper backgrounds, you know where everyone got together to have Fun&Adventures. And just to clarify I do not have issues playing with the younger crowd
.
An that's why you make friends with one of the healers in your guild and let them know in a separate voice chat that you're going to blow some CDs watch my HP, and boom you can top charts for both you're dps and his/her healing. Works out great.
That's a good point, although I can't really say much as I was only around 15 back when I got into EQ, heh. I was always respectful though, and would have never even considered the idea of kicking someone out of a group for something as petty as a piece of gear they were wearing - heck, I wouldn't kick someone out period, unless they were being jerks.
To me, it's all about fun and it always will be, but there seems to be more and more people out there who care more about turning the genre into an exercise in arithmetic, rather than playing games for what they are. I guess the number crunching thing is fun for some, but when taken to the extreme, it seems to bring out the worst in people.
Everything in moderation people. I would definitely kick someone if they came to a group endgame with a bunch of crap gear because they were too lazy to go out and do what they needed to get it.
However, on the same token...I'm, not going to kick someone who say (ffxi), doesn't have Kirin's Osode, or something to that effect.
Realistic expectations are a good thing. If nobody cared what gear you wore AT ALL you would never have those amazing parties that got you great xp, or cleared that really damn difficult boss that nobody seemed to be able to pull off no matter how well they played.
With that you will always have the EPEEN'ers. It's just different personalities. And that won't change. And that's good, because it gives those in the middle something to shoot for, and ensures that the people on the opposite end of the spectrum are putting the work in to at least be decent.
Also, with regards to the people "getting tunnel vision". This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Really? So because there's a DPS meter suddenly everyone is going to be wiping parties? No.
Simply put, you've had bad experiences with people trying to go too hard in order to maximize their dps. First of all, not everyone is going to do that. Secondly, as previously stated, dead= 0 dps, so getting themselves killed is counter-intuitive to that entire mindset. Third, if the person doesn't suck, YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THEY WERE TRYING. Why? Because they wouldn't cause a wipe or disruption to the party and you dont like DPS mods so you wouldn't know what their dps was >.>