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[Column] Guild Wars 2: Changing WvW

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,619MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

ArenaNet has big changes in store for the Guild Wars 2 World versus World system in the coming weeks and months. In today's column, we take a look at a few of the already-announced changes and offer our analysis. Let us know what you think in the comments.

I’ve played my fair share of WvW, so I know how some of the strategies are planned and executed.  Some members of my guild however don’t see the strategic moves that players and commanders make.  One of my guildies asked, and I quote, “So you just move along with a herd running past enemies hoping you hit someone?”  All they could see was the large masses of players running from tower to tower.  WvW veterans know these groups as zergs.

Read more of David North's Guild Wars 2: Changing WvW.

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Maybe we will finally get to see some Charr battle tanks in action!

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

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Comments

  • BattlerockBattlerock Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,393Member
    I disagree with bonus points. Yes you might nab a few, but there will still always be safety and security in numbers. Most players I have noticed and not just in gw2 cant handle defeat. They pout and log out. So they are still going to go with the good ole safety with numbers.


    They just need to go ahead and make it so an unguarded ( less than 5 people present ) keep can have its front gate blown off its hinges in less than a minute by a 5 man group. This will spread out the offenses and defenses and create more back and forth game play right away. Your zerg cant be everywhere at once. With as much time as it takes to pull down a gate though, the ocean wave of players known as the zerg still rules the day.
  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon
    Discouraging players from running around keep to keep in zergs and constantly flipping points should be the main focus and should have been from the start.
  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    considering guild wars 2 took the tri realm vs realm of DAOC and tried to make it better they made the maps entirely too small and way to many choke points and towers guards keeps etc. Part of what made DAOC fun back in the day was the small 8 vs 8 skirmish that went out , instead of just keep swapping. Yes keep swapping for relics was a important part of the end game pvp in DAOC and GW2 at first had it but couldnt find a fix for the exploiters so it was removed. The only thing thats going to make guild wars 2 wvw much more fun is if they find a way to expand the maps for it . They mentioned something about removing the lake in the center of the borderland maps to make the maps much larger for small skirmish. As it is right now small teams just do nothing but take a couple of doylak camps and gank stragglers with the occasional opening to take a tower and score points or farm the zerge. I agree small teams pvp needs to be made better in world vs world but you have to make it so that small teams have the time and reward to promote small skirmish pvp. More siege is by far not the answer , in fact if they were smart they would get rid of it , its just a crutch for bad players and zerges to farm players without the fear of death or strategy.
  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon
    I like GW2 but how they managed to make something as large and epic as WVWVW meaningless is frustrating.
  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    OP I disagree completely that wvw  is ok and just needs a few tweeks and rule changes.

    My first question to you would be...."have you ever played the best faction vs faction conflict game ever made" ? D A O C. There are millions of potential GW2 players who have.They know good faction conflict gaming when they see it...and when they don't.

    -incessant zegs that take and retake the same objectives....is not good design

    -micro size maps that facilitate zerg strategy....is not good design

    -lack of  strong choke points to thwart the zerg....is not good design

    -speed spells that affect the speed of the zerg coupled with micro size maps...thats not good design

    -lack of towers adjacent to keeps to facilitate keep defense...thats not good design

    -lack of persistent world faction conflict(instead a world that is regularly reset like a  15 minute pvp match) is not going to attract those looking for great faction conflict.

    etc etc etc

     

    GW2 needs a complete overhaul to resurrect it.Painting a new color on  poorly designed feature's will be recognized by many for just exactly what it is...and is not.

    Game developers in many cases simply underestimate the sophistication and experience level of their target market.Then they wonder why the same ole same ole crashes and burns after a too brief flight.

     

  • SidQFTSidQFT Kent, WAPosts: 80Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Battlerock

    They just need to go ahead and make it so an unguarded ( less than 5 people present ) keep can have its front gate blown off its hinges in less than a minute by a 5 man group. This will spread out the offenses and defenses and create more back and forth game play right away. Your zerg cant be everywhere at once. With as much time as it takes to pull down a gate though, the ocean wave of players known as the zerg still rules the day.

    this!

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    like Battlerock said, currently it's impossible to do anything unless you have a group of 20 guys, and once you have 20 guys you might as well just add the other 30 and move all in one huge group. once you capture a point there is no point in defending it as it is locked for a certain amount of time. this encourages the zerg even more as the quicker you go from point to point the better you do. the fasters way to capture any point is to have the most people possible together.

     

    the only way to avoid the zerg is by putting lots of easily capturable points with enough distance between them that a big zerg would end up spending more time travelling than fighting.

    one or 2 people should be able to quickly capture any point that has no players defending it, and the points should never be locked out for any amount of time.

     

    you absolutely must make it so people are forced to stay and defend what they have captured otherwise it becomes all about offence all the time, and the majority of the time all offence ends up in a giant zerg.

     
     
     
  • mCalvertmCalvert Tallahassee, FLPosts: 1,283Member
    Theyre just moving the chairs around and changing the colors. These aren't REAL changes. PVE players get whole zones, gear, minigames, puzzles, etc. WVW gets +1% arrow cart dmg.
  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Where GW2 failed with WvW is with having such a tiny space devoted to the action and then splitting that up over 4 maps.  They should learned something commonly known within DAoC.  Make the maps super big which limits the mobility and reactionary time of the zerg and instead promotes that zerg into breaking down into smaller teams to cover more territory.  Until GW2 fixes that, WvW will forever be a 2nd class citizen to its RvR brother.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

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  • 1vald21vald2 StuttgartPosts: 75Member

    Well, I hope for the GW2 players that WvW gets some love now, rather than some pseudo improvement like the current "skill system" of WvW. But the thing is...they have been saying, "we have so much in store for WvW! You just gotta wait a couple months!!" a long time now.

    Happy waiting :D

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  • TekaelonTekaelon Brookhaven, MSPosts: 531Member Uncommon
    Break the zerg back with stronger siege equipment that can hit more then 5. Zerg ruins wvw
  • Master.RyuMaster.Ryu Death Valley, NCPosts: 52Member
    Originally posted by Shadanwolf

    OP I disagree completely that wvw  is ok and just needs a few tweeks and rule changes.

    My first question to you would be...."have you ever played the best faction vs faction conflict game ever made" ? D A O C. There are millions of potential GW2 players who have.They know good faction conflict gaming when they see it...and when they don't.

    -incessant zegs that take and retake the same objectives....is not good design

    -micro size maps that facilitate zerg strategy....is not good design

    -lack of  strong choke points to thwart the zerg....is not good design

    -speed spells that affect the speed of the zerg coupled with micro size maps...thats not good design

    -lack of towers adjacent to keeps to facilitate keep defense...thats not good design

    -lack of persistent world faction conflict(instead a world that is regularly reset like a  15 minute pvp match) is not going to attract those looking for great faction conflict.

    etc etc etc

     

    GW2 needs a complete overhaul to resurrect it.Painting a new color on  poorly designed feature's will be recognized by many for just exactly what it is...and is not.

    Game developers in many cases simply underestimate the sophistication and experience level of their target market.Then they wonder why the same ole same ole crashes and burns after a too brief flight.

     

    Too much whining and not enough of HOW it could be fixed.

  • VorchVorch Somewhere, FLPosts: 800Member

    If way points remain as they are, the maps need to get bigger.

    If way points are reduced, the maps would be fine.

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member Common

    As a GW2 player i'm unmotivated to play WvW. The two week "battle" feels makes me feel that I don't really have much of an impact unless i plan on playing days in a row.  

    . What would encouarge me to play is if instead of a 2 week thing. They had a daily war that started at a certain time and ended at a certain. Every day.  The war would start at a time, be offline, and then the next day starts again with the same things in check. This goes on for 2 weeks and the points are totaled. When things end, everything leaves off like it did the previous day for 2 weeks.   The map is set in stone during the downtime.  

    This would allow new players a great jump on point.  

    Also GW2 could do some good by changing up the maps every two weeks, changing objectives and check points.  

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    Some 5 MONTHS ago I got into a bunch of arguments with people stating GW2 was bad because it was nothing but a zerg fest, trying to point out to them that most of the GOOD servers were using strategy by sending out small groups to take places while their zergs were taking big points...and even sending out small groups of bunker elementalists to stall the other sides movements.

    Only to be told I was full of it and it meant nothing.

    Looks like Anet thinks they were wrong also...just more proof most of DaoCs players don't know good PvP, because they cant even get the basic strategies of large battles right. 

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,750Member Uncommon
    Considering WvW was THE selling point of the game doesn't that make GW2 as much of a fail as SWTOR?
  • dgarbinidgarbini San Jose, CAPosts: 185Member

    I remember in Jan, they had promised an 'expansions worth of content' focused on WvW.  Yeah how did that work out?

     

    At this point aside from a total revamp of the game its done.  People that enjoy it will keep enjoying it, and people that are done with it, will not give it another shot.  You only get one chance at first impressions.  Thinking about changing/updating WvW, that should have been done 9 moths ago or more.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Considering WvW was THE selling point of the game doesn't that make GW2 as much of a fail as SWTOR?

     Nothing is as much as a fail as SWTOR, they lost most of their players and even the CEO said as he was walking away from his job that they fudged the numbers for investors...so that 1.2 million players lost was on the way LOW side. GW2 is not lacking in players.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Considering WvW was THE selling point of the game doesn't that make GW2 as much of a fail as SWTOR?

    WvW is just ONE of the selling points of the game, and is mainly for the PvP fans. It's the DEs that sold me to the game. I could give a rat's ass if WvW existed or not.

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Master.Ryu
    Originally posted by Shadanwolf

    OP I disagree completely that wvw  is ok and just needs a few tweeks and rule changes.

    My first question to you would be...."have you ever played the best faction vs faction conflict game ever made" ? D A O C. There are millions of potential GW2 players who have.They know good faction conflict gaming when they see it...and when they don't.

    -incessant zegs that take and retake the same objectives....is not good design

    -micro size maps that facilitate zerg strategy....is not good design

    -lack of  strong choke points to thwart the zerg....is not good design

    -speed spells that affect the speed of the zerg coupled with micro size maps...thats not good design

    -lack of towers adjacent to keeps to facilitate keep defense...thats not good design

    -lack of persistent world faction conflict(instead a world that is regularly reset like a  15 minute pvp match) is not going to attract those looking for great faction conflict.

    etc etc etc

     

    GW2 needs a complete overhaul to resurrect it.Painting a new color on  poorly designed feature's will be recognized by many for just exactly what it is...and is not.

    Game developers in many cases simply underestimate the sophistication and experience level of their target market.Then they wonder why the same ole same ole crashes and burns after a too brief flight.

     

    Too much whining and not enough of HOW it could be fixed.

    *When you see a car  who's design you don't care for do you grab the phone and call the car company and tell them how they should have designed it ?

    * when you see a computer whose design you don't care for do you call the computer company and tell them how they should have designed it ?

    *when a game company designs a game do they have a responsibility to their investors to do consumer research to see what the target market for their products thinks of their ideas ..before they spend  the investors money  to make it ?

    * is it time to treat game company's who make games to make a profit like adults...where decisions have consequences

    * is it my responsibility to tell a game company how they can fix a screwed up product...and for free?

  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,006Member Uncommon
    My main problem with WvW is how fast keeps and towers change hands.  They should be dynamically challenging depending on the group size within the parameters of them.
  • AlomarAlomar Middle Earth, NJPosts: 448Member Uncommon

    - GW2's attempt at RvR was "meh" and fun for a bit at launch and maybe a week or two here and there. The budget and smaller dev team was apparent with features like culling, orbs, and yak escort rewards.

    - Culling took entirely too long to fix, and with it fixed theres a much smaller population playing the game now, as well as WvW in general. Orbs well, took entirely too long to remove at launch, while being exploited, and then never recieved a fix. Yak escort rewards/completion needed to be changed, but once again complete removal, and then removing all rewards was not the way to go. Great advice had been put forth just to only allow 1 yak escort credit at a time, the only problem was stacking yak completions.

    - The addition of some type of horizontal grind/progression (ranks) took too long. The general direction of WvW is aimed at casual players, which is not (from what I've seen) the general population of RvR type of pvpers.

    - Looking forward to CU.

    Dozens of MMO's, RTS's, FPS's, etc.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Shadanwolf

    GW2 needs a complete overhaul to resurrect it.

     

    every time i log in all the servers are high population and a few full servers too. What is there to resurrect? The game and WvWvW need improvements but you make it sounds like its a dead game. Maybe you stopped playing long time ago and have no idea how is it doing now

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  • zaylinzaylin Olympia, WAPosts: 789Member
    Originally posted by Alders
    Discouraging players from running around keep to keep in zergs and constantly flipping points should be the main focus and should have been from the start.

    Ya a zerg here and there is ok, but i stopped playing WvW because to me PvP is more than Zerging. And of late most PvP in games involves that way to much. 

  • MaelkorMaelkor Friendswood, TXPosts: 465Member Uncommon

    The best way to counter a zerg is more powerful AE options. I  have not played GW2 in a while and when I did play the WvW wasnt much at that point so I cant speak as to how the game actually is, however, zergs are an ever present problem in any pvp game. I do not know what the state of general AE is at this time, however, if they added things like AE traps that could be place in front of gates, oil fields that could be lit up and cover a large area and such things it would make an general unorganized zerg tactic simply fail as the healing could not keep up, however, organized zergs that spread their effort out would still be effective.

     

    You dont want to completely take away a numbers advantage - just make it more enticing to hit multiple targets with smaller groups while some massive organized battles could still take place.

     
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