Future of MMOs............Console games

MMOman101

I hate to say it but, I think the future of MMOs should be on the next consoles. 

I know a lot of people hate the idea of MMOs on consoles, but there is no need to make a game for a controller only and a Mouse and Keyboard should work on next gen consoles.

Inherently, the main advantage the consoles have is 8 gigs of ram.  The sad reality is no one is making games that are only 64-bit apps yet.  32 bit apps, even on a 64 bit box, have a default maximum of 2 gigs, in Windows.  That can be increased by  making the app large address aware. 

At the end of the day though, developers are building games with only 2 gigs of available memory for PC.  The two next gen consoles will both have 8 gigs available and I have to assume that is because they will be coded for greater than 32 bit apps.  Being able to load 8 gigs will be a huge benefit in making seamless open worlds.  Having ~4x the amount of available ram is nothing to sneeze at. 

I think it would wonderful it developers would start making games 64 bit only.  I just don’t see it happening in the near future.  Consoles give hardware/software standardization.  This along with the greater memory should allow for huge open spaces and limited loading.  Two things that should be standards in MMOs. 

Thoughts.

ichihaifu

Sorry I didnt read much , but mmo's arent going to consoles.

Player bases aret going to be big enought for smaller MMO devs to go to consoles, only big companies can afford to make console MMO.

 

MMOman101

Originally posted by ichihaifu

Sorry I didnt read much , but mmo's arent going to consoles.

Player bases aret going to be big enought for smaller MMO devs to go to consoles, only big companies can afford to make console MMO.

 

130+ million xbox 360 and PS3 were sold.  I think that is a large enough market, assuming the numbers are close. 

Varthander

i agree with the OP, and depending on what mmo's come to the ps4 i might return to consoles ( and it would be cheaper than upgrading my PC for next gen games )

Akumawraith

Originally posted by MMOman101

I hate to say it but, I think the future of MMOs should be on the next consoles. 

I know a lot of people hate the idea of MMOs on consoles, but there is no need to make a game for a controller only and a Mouse and Keyboard should work on next gen consoles.

Its not that alot of player hate the idea of MMO's being on consoles, its that Consoles become out of date far too fast in technology. MMO's evolve, when a new one comes out it could have higher settings than what the console can match. What then? You could say.. that will never happen.. but it has.. every time.

Inherently, the main advantage the consoles have is 8 gigs of ram.  The sad reality is no one is making games that are only 64-bit apps yet.  32 bit apps, even on a 64 bit box, have a default maximum of 2 gigs, in Windows.  That can be increased by  making the app large address aware. 

As you stated most games are designed for 2gb memory.. however I do believe you are missing the point of the memory, and why gamers stack 8gb, 16gb, and in my case 32gb. The memory isnt there for the games sake, its for system performance. I cant think of anyone who bought memory for a game.. they bought it to speed up their system so they could play the games, and run other programs in background, like fraps or a VoiP, without slowing their system down.

At the end of the day though, developers are building games with only 2 gigs of available memory for PC.  The two next gen consoles will both have 8 gigs available and I have to assume that is because they will be coded for greater than 32 bit apps.  Being able to load 8 gigs will be a huge benefit in making seamless open worlds.  Having ~4x the amount of available ram is nothing to sneeze at. 

as i said previously the memory isnt there for the game its there for the systems performance.

I think it would wonderful it developers would start making games 64 bit only.  I just don’t see it happening in the near future.  Consoles give hardware/software standardization.  This along with the greater memory should allow for huge open spaces and limited loading.  Two things that should be standards in MMOs. 

Developers havent made 64bit games because it hasnt been necessary. Typical thought from a publisher is lets save money. to design a 64 bit game would take a mountain of resources as they would have to completely create new scripting languages and programs. the engine alone would be a nightmare to design.... now I could be wrong.. i never tried to create a 64 bit game. However I do know that most of the computers in this world arent running 8 gigs of ram. hence why the developers havent tried to increase the memory requirement. and why when Chris Roberts was asked why he was setting the graphics setting so high for his game Star Citizen he flat out stated "Im not designing this game for everyone, Im designing it for those who want it."

Thoughts.

 

Quicksand

Originally posted by MMOman101

Originally posted by ichihaifu

Sorry I didnt read much , but mmo's arent going to consoles.

Player bases aret going to be big enought for smaller MMO devs to go to consoles, only big companies can afford to make console MMO.

 

130+ million xbox 360 and PS3 were sold.  I think that is a large enough market, assuming the numbers are close. 

130+ sold. About 98% to kids playing fast twitch games not MMO's

 

Problem two: there are far too many MMO fans like myself that play with their family (like me my wife and kids). While we all have our own computers, because they are used for far more than just gaming (which justifies the money spent) buying 5 PS4's is not ever going to happen. Atleast not until the PS4 can COMPLETELY remove my need for a computer in my house.

steamtank

Screw that.

unless it requires a kb+m to play it is far to simplified to be an engaging experience. 

 

sure release it available on a console AS LONG AS IT STILL REQUIRES A KB+M!

anything designed cross platform has to play to the lowest common denominator... which will always be the console control

ichihaifu

There are also other factors that need to be counted in, mainly the lack of buttons to give commands, only MMO's I can imagine being played on consoles are Action combat (TERA) and shooters (PS2, The Division) due to their nature.

itbewilly

Originally posted by ichihaifu
There are also other factors that need to be counted in, mainly the lack of buttons to give commands, only MMO's I can imagine being played on consoles are Action combat (TERA) and shooters (PS2, The Division) due to their nature.

This^^ Games like Destiny and The Division look great but also how well will they do against the other well established shooters that many gamer's will likely play over these new titles. Games like Call of Duty,Battlefield,Halo,Gear's/etc will all no doubt take users away from these new games.

I could see a game like Guild Wars 2 also being great on console. not too many abilities at all to be successful. Only time will tell. I wanna see how ESO and EQN do if they both hit PS4. That will tell us more than these new shooters will.

Reklaw

Originally posted by ichihaifu

Sorry I didnt read much , but mmo's arent going to consoles.

Player bases aret going to be big enought for smaller MMO devs to go to consoles, only big companies can afford to make console MMO.

 

 Plenty of today's MMO's can easily be on the next gen console's.

Look at "Destiny" it's the way MMO's are heading. Pf course there also will be fantasy based MMO's on console's

But MMORPG's however still will mostly remain on PC I think mainly since I consider a MMORPG more a virtual world/sandbox(ish) and a MMO as more of a Themepark game. For example I don't think EQN will be on the next gen. console.

 

 

dgarbini

What is the biggest hit of the MMO market?  WOW.  How many players did it have at its peak?  How many consoles is it on?  What is the biggest hit of console MMO's, how many players did they receive?

 

Now I am not saying that opening up games to consoles would not expand the market.  However currently game companies are chasing something they 'think' will work, not something that has been 'proven' to work.  Which is a big difference.  You can easily say there are 100 million consoles out there, then I can say there are a huge (no idea the number) of PC's out there even more so then consoles.  Not all people want these games on either system, or have the specific setup for it.  How many MMO gamers do not have PC's or people who would be into MMOs do not have PC's?

itbewilly

Originally posted by dgarbini

What is the biggest hit of the MMO market?  WOW.  How many players did it have at its peak?  How many consoles is it on?  What is the biggest hit of console MMO's, how many players did they receive?

 

Now I am not saying that opening up games to consoles would not expand the market.  However currently game companies are chasing something they 'think' will work, not something that has been 'proven' to work.  Which is a big difference.  You can easily say there are 100 million consoles out there, then I can say there are a huge (no idea the number) of PC's out there even more so then consoles.  Not all people want these games on either system, or have the specific setup for it.  How many MMO gamers do not have PC's or people who would be into MMOs do not have PC's?

Ill say this just to counter whatever point you tried to make. WoW is a rare case. Before it how many mmos broke 1 million monthly users? Didn't EQ have a couple hundred thousand at best?

Now take this into consideration since you wanna use just WoW as an example of why pc mmo's are better

Everquest Online Adventures 

Released 2-11-03

Ran for just over 11 years on the Playstation 2

Shut down 3-21-12

Go ahead and try to compile a list of pc mmos that either

1) Was cancelled between that 11 year window or

2) Switch to a free to play model(a model that EQOA even on an old dated system like the PS2 never did)

I bet you will find quite a few games that died off,went free to play or was cancelled during production while this small console mmo still was able to stay up and running with amonthly fee.

revslave

Originally posted by ichihaifu
There are also other factors that need to be counted in, mainly the lack of buttons to give commands, only MMO's I can imagine being played on consoles are Action combat (TERA) and shooters (PS2, The Division) due to their nature.

FFXI managed to do it, but i think that was in part due to the amount of macros the game allowed and the relatively slow strategic combat.

I see a future in console MMO's, for the first time since Sega Genesis I am contemplating buying a console. This may be due to my changing taste in online video games. 

The only thing I would need to do is buy a television

Welcome Home

Rev.

Maelwydd

I don't think it is a question of can you or can't you design an MMO for a console but more a question of should you.

 

Does the demographic for console games meet the demographic for an MMO?

I would argue that when you look at what a normal MMO player wants and needs from an MMO and what a normal console player wants and nees from a console game there is a huge gap.

MMO's by nature tend to be heavy, time intensive, long lasting, ever changing journeys. Consle games tend to the opposite being light, easy to pick up, short duration, yearly replacements.

All things are possible but I jus think consoles are good at some things and PC's are good at others. Lets leave it that way because when people try and bring things like this together it ends up being worse their either could have been before trying to compromise.

Maelwydd

Originally posted by itbewilly

Everquest Online Adventures 

I have never heard of it.

AG-Vuk

Originally posted by

Originally posted by MMOman101

I hate to say it but, I think the future of MMOs should be on the next consoles. 

I know a lot of people hate the idea of MMOs on consoles, but there is no need to make a game for a controller only and a Mouse and Keyboard should work on next gen consoles.

Its not that alot of player hate the idea of MMO's being on consoles, its that Consoles become out of date far too fast in technology. MMO's evolve, when a new one comes out it could have higher settings than what the console can match. What then? You could say.. that will never happen.. but it has.. every time.

Inherently, the main advantage the consoles have is 8 gigs of ram.  The sad reality is no one is making games that are only 64-bit apps yet.  32 bit apps, even on a 64 bit box, have a default maximum of 2 gigs, in Windows.  That can be increased by  making the app large address aware. 

As you stated most games are designed for 2gb memory.. however I do believe you are missing the point of the memory, and why gamers stack 8gb, 16gb, and in my case 32gb. The memory isnt there for the games sake, its for system performance. I cant think of anyone who bought memory for a game.. they bought it to speed up their system so they could play the games, and run other programs in background, like fraps or a VoiP, without slowing their system down.

At the end of the day though, developers are building games with only 2 gigs of available memory for PC.  The two next gen consoles will both have 8 gigs available and I have to assume that is because they will be coded for greater than 32 bit apps.  Being able to load 8 gigs will be a huge benefit in making seamless open worlds.  Having ~4x the amount of available ram is nothing to sneeze at. 

as i said previously the memory isnt there for the game its there for the systems performance.

I think it would wonderful it developers would start making games 64 bit only.  I just don’t see it happening in the near future.  Consoles give hardware/software standardization.  This along with the greater memory should allow for huge open spaces and limited loading.  Two things that should be standards in MMOs. 

Developers havent made 64bit games because it hasnt been necessary. Typical thought from a publisher is lets save money. to design a 64 bit game would take a mountain of resources as they would have to completely create new scripting languages and programs. the engine alone would be a nightmare to design.... now I could be wrong.. i never tried to create a 64 bit game. However I do know that most of the computers in this world arent running 8 gigs of ram. hence why the developers havent tried to increase the memory requirement. and why when Chris Roberts was asked why he was setting the graphics setting so high for his game Star Citizen he flat out stated "Im not designing this game for everyone, Im designing it for those who want it."

Thoughts.

I'll add that what Akunmawaith is more correct. Devs have held back mainly due to the concept of universality. Statistically speaking they want to appeal to the largest variety of gamers available. That means a whole range of systems. That's why a minimum requirement set. The one limiting factor has been developers ambition to get their games out on X-box and PS.

I've always suspected that the last few years ( 2 - 3 ) , games were being released that were basically console games for PC. It's become clear that these games are set for conversion to console market once these console systems are available. ( think SWTOR, anything by Cryptic etc... ) Console makers need to populate their systems with games quickly on release. What better way then to tell Devs that if they have the games released with these parameters the conversion to a larger market will be easy. They sell it as a win- win.

 

Ridelynn

I'm not opposed to MMOs on a console. FFXI was done fairly well - the controls were a bit clunky but workable. DCUO works very well on the console - maybe better than it does on the PC to be honest.

It's not impossible to develop an MMO that works well with a controller. The challenge is developing something that works well with a controller while still working well with a kb/mouse - the problem FFXIV had initially.

It's also a UI design challenge. People sit farther away from TVs. Things like chat boxes and ability bars and UI clutter have to be sized in mind of that. And what looks good sitting on the couch staring at your big screen may look like a wasteland of empty unused space when you go back to sitting 24" in front of a 24" computer monitor.

Can it be done? Sure, if you head into the design process up front with it in mind, I think it can be done, and done very well.

Do I think the "next-gen" consoles are the future of MMOs? I think they will have many MMO-style games (Destiny, for instance), and it may be that the entire genre of MMOs will drift toward that direction, but I think your staple MMO games like WoW/EQ/Rift/Aion/etc will remain on the PC - they have too many input mechanics that can't be distilled down well to a controller (and part of the fun of those games is with the complexity of the input mechanics in the first place).

Sovrath

Originally posted by Akumawraith

"Im not designing this game for everyone, Im designing it for those who want it."

Thoughts.

 

thoughts?

 

I love that quote.

MMOman101

Originally posted by Akumawraith

Originally posted by MMOman101

I hate to say it but, I think the future of MMOs should be on the next consoles. 

I know a lot of people hate the idea of MMOs on consoles, but there is no need to make a game for a controller only and a Mouse and Keyboard should work on next gen consoles.

Its not that alot of player hate the idea of MMO's being on consoles, its that Consoles become out of date far too fast in technology. MMO's evolve, when a new one comes out it could have higher settings than what the console can match. What then? You could say.. that will never happen.. but it has.. every time.

These consoles will not be surpassed by PCs anytime soon.  That is what happened in the past.  It will not happen this time.  Software limitations on PCs are still in place and will be for awhile.  The only caveat to this is if the consoles only have 8 gigs of ram for marketing.  If they cannot access the extra ram than you will be correct in assuming that PCs will be better.  If consoles can access all of that ram they will jump ahead and stay a head for years.

Inherently, the main advantage the consoles have is 8 gigs of ram.  The sad reality is no one is making games that are only 64-bit apps yet.  32 bit apps, even on a 64 bit box, have a default maximum of 2 gigs, in Windows.  That can be increased by  making the app large address aware. 

As you stated most games are designed for 2gb memory.. however I do believe you are missing the point of the memory, and why gamers stack 8gb, 16gb, and in my case 32gb. The memory isnt there for the games sake, its for system performance. I cant think of anyone who bought memory for a game.. they bought it to speed up their system so they could play the games, and run other programs in background, like fraps or a VoiP, without slowing their system down.

At the end of the day though, developers are building games with only 2 gigs of available memory for PC.  The two next gen consoles will both have 8 gigs available and I have to assume that is because they will be coded for greater than 32 bit apps.  Being able to load 8 gigs will be a huge benefit in making seamless open worlds.  Having ~4x the amount of available ram is nothing to sneeze at. 

as i said previously the memory isnt there for the game its there for the systems performance.

Memory is the greatest limitation to gaming.  Not because people cannot stuff it in a PC, but because Windows PCs have software limitations. 

I think it would wonderful it developers would start making games 64 bit only.  I just don’t see it happening in the near future.  Consoles give hardware/software standardization.  This along with the greater memory should allow for huge open spaces and limited loading.  Two things that should be standards in MMOs. 

Developers havent made 64bit games because it hasnt been necessary. Typical thought from a publisher is lets save money. to design a 64 bit game would take a mountain of resources as they would have to completely create new scripting languages and programs. the engine alone would be a nightmare to design.... now I could be wrong.. i never tried to create a 64 bit game. However I do know that most of the computers in this world arent running 8 gigs of ram. hence why the developers havent tried to increase the memory requirement. and why when Chris Roberts was asked why he was setting the graphics setting so high for his game Star Citizen he flat out stated "Im not designing this game for everyone, Im designing it for those who want it."

Thoughts.

This is going to be the first cycle where consoles will be better for gaming than PCs.  I know there are people who will not accept that, but it will be true.  Consoles should not have the same software limitations.  Hardware has always been further ahead than software.  Consoles just took a giant leap ahead of PC, simply because PC users cannot access as much as the console will have. 

I have been playing PC games for years.  I can see a time in the very near future where consoles only games are far better in graphics/scope/depth than PC games.  PC snobs will be very unhappy.  It is a good think I am not emotionally attached to any system.  

maskedweasel

I've been touting MMOs going to consoles for a very long time.  So many people have misconceptions when it comes to MMOs on Consoles:

 

1) Theres no Market for them -   WRONG,  console MMOs do extremely well in comparison to their PC counterparts. FFXI didn't have a tremendous PC following and the developers mentioned not breaking even on the game until the release on the console happened.  Console populations led PC population.   Take the newest release - DCUO.  SOE released statistics stating that 70% of the population is playing on the PS3.   Take Phantasy Star Universe, where the PC servers shut down nearly a year prior to the Xbox 360 version due to low population.  This is just a small snapshot of the populations of Console MMOs.

 

2) Console MMOs have to be dumbed down - WRONG, Console MMO's don't have to be dumbed down, because frankly, the amount of buttons you have on a controller in comparison to a keyboard isn't what makes a game complex.  For example, I used to play Fallen Earth with an Xbox 360 controller.  It had primarily a shooter interface, but it also had well over 24 hotkeys for some builds,  and had a lot of in depth crafting.  Hotkeying abilities is really childs play.  All games essentially use a hotkey style of combat in a sense.  You are always pressing a button and having an ability discharge whether its a controller or a keyboard.  Most of the "Traditional" MMOs with tab combat would actually be easier with a controller as switching back and forth between enemies with bumpers and using your thumbs to fire off abilities is actually easier then doing tab - shift+tab and 1 - 0.   Look at GW2, TSW, AOC and some of the newest games, many of which are limiting the amount of bars and abilities you have anyway.. its just smarter to use a controller thats more ergonomic and comfortable.

 

3) The hardware on Consoles isn't good enough - WRONG,  Hardware on the current consoles already run MMOs with big worlds and nice graphics- like DCUO.  DCUO actually has some very large open worlds in comparison to other games on the market.  Sure there are bigger worlds out there, but you can always argue that there will be larger worlds, or better graphics somewhere else.  The point is, when creating an MMO for a console, developers are building an MMO based specifically on the hardware the game will run on, instead of building a game for PC's where there could be hundreds or thousands of different hardware or software configurations they will need to troubleshoot.   On the new consoles when they release a game, they only have two hardware configurations to worry about.  X1 and PS4.  No having to worry about the anti-virus you're running, or what other stupid programs you might have installed.  No worrying about what type of architecture you have or if you have outdated drivers.  When building an MMO for a console, it will just work, as the developer designed.

 

4) Indie MMOs will never make it to console - WRONG, indie games are actually extremely popular on consoles right now.  With the markets available, you see games like Minecraft and SuperMeatBoy appearing, as well as a host of other games from small talented developers.  At the end of the day, there aren't a tremendous amount of indie MMO's that actually see the light of day and release to a production state.  With the new influx of consoles and console MMOs, its only a matter of time before the indie market leads to smaller MMOs developed for the console.

 

5) You need a Mouse and Keyboard to chat for MMOs - WRONG,  what age are we living in?  Voice chat is prevalent in MMOs already with PTT, and in the event some shy people don't want to actually speak to their fellow players, how about Text to Speech?  Its completely possible, with the use of an onscreen keyboard popup if you want to manually type commands.  This isn't the 90s,  voice commands have been prevalent and accurate for years now, and are only getting better.

 

I've seen the same arguments for years, even after we've seen console MMOs launch and be more successful then their PC counterparts.   Console MMOs will lead the way to innovation,  in the UI front,  in the gameplay front, and just overall on the MMO front.  I understand the PC purists don't want to believe its possible, but game companies aren't just showing us whether its possible,  they are showing us that its the future.