Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Is EQ just nostalgia, or was it really that good?

1235711

Comments

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 Member Posts: 2,735

    It was the first time most people had played an mmo so everything was new and amazing..definitely nostalgia.

    My first mmo was horizons empire of istaria and i thought it was the most amazing thing i'd ever seen.

  • flizzerflizzer Member RarePosts: 2,454

    It is amazing how nostalgia colors our perceptions.  My first MMO experience was Runescape and I thought that was better than sliced bread.  When I first logged in I didn't even understand all those other people running around were other players. I just thought they were NPCs.   I was able to buy things in the store and run around and kill goblins.  I was up all night playing the game when I first discovered it!  

     

    Recently I went back and lasted less than 5 minutes before I couldn't deal with it anymore.  

     

    I'm sure Everquest when it released was an amazing experience, as many here claim.  Gaming has advanced and gamers today would not see this game as amazing anymore.   If EQ next copies this game it will be a failure no doubt.   For EQ Next to success it has to understand developements in MMOs since that time and present them in a unique way and , dare I say,  offer us something new perhaps?

  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785

    EQ was so good that no one left it to play WoW. In fact, WoW just never took off, the MMO community didn't support it and it fell flat with only 20,000 subs.

  • faxnadufaxnadu Member UncommonPosts: 940
    simply nostalgia , first love is always first love type of thing. one should not be fooled by these people barking back in the days mmos were better cause mostly they werent even there or if they were they didnt even play those games just barking out of boredom and simply cause its believed to be such a cool thing to note to everyone that mmos use to be good.
  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Member CommonPosts: 1,538
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

     Luclin added portals from the wizard Spires to a central Hub on the moon....effectively destroying the world in terms of travel time.  

    So instead of taking two hours to get from a to b, it took 45 minutes.  Even with the PoK stones you still usually had to travel through at least 2 or 3 zones.  This is the exact type of rose colored glasses stuff that the OP was talking about.  And instant porting was in EQ day 1 anyway, the fastest way to get somewhere has always been druid/wizard.

     

    The only real negative with Luclin/PoP is the neutral city.  But they didnt remove travel time, they just made it more manageable.  the long travel times are epic unless you only have two hours to play.

    The best solution is to unlock travel only after youve been there once.  Even the run through Kithicor became a little bring after i had done it a half dozen times.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 Member Posts: 2,735
    My fondest memory is waiting for those shuttle in SWG. One used come every 15 minutes then they changed it to 5 and then 2 minutes :(
  • p4ttythep3rf3ctp4ttythep3rf3ct Member UncommonPosts: 194

    It was that good.  

     

    In was, in fact, ground-breaking and it set up the template from which nearly every MMO released afterwards would copy.  You don't get dubbed Evercrack because people are feeling nostalgic.  

    That's just, like, my opinion, man.

  • p4ttythep3rf3ctp4ttythep3rf3ct Member UncommonPosts: 194
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    My fondest memory is waiting for those shuttle in SWG. One used come every 15 minutes then they changed it to 5 and then 2 minutes :(

    Oh man, waiting for the boat in EQ to cross the Ocean of Tears.  A real-life 40-minute boat ride and I loved every minute of it, once I learned to fish.

    That's just, like, my opinion, man.

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 Member Posts: 2,735
    Most of us have been playing a new version of the same game for the last 10 years. The only ground breaking game in the last 10 years was swg and they ruined that.
  • KilrainKilrain Member RarePosts: 1,185
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    For me, EQ was good and bad.

    The Bad
    - I felt I had to group once I got past level 20 in order to do almost anything.
    - The crafting was good, but the ingredients for making quest items did not always make sense.
    - Trains of Mobs chasing other players occasionally jumping onto you.
    - Open world dungeons where 1 group screws up and kills other groups in the dungeon.
    - Plenty of boring quests.
    - Possibility of losing levels when defeated/killed.
    - Corpse Runs.

    The Good
    - Slow combat.
    - Fun Grouping.
    - Many diverse classes. [15 at launch]
    - Many diverse races. [12 at launch]
    - Open world that fostered working together.
    - Mobs that chased you ALL over the zone.
    - Zone lines that saved your ass from the above.
    - Trains of Mobs chasing other players, making "being aware" a very good skill to have.
    - Actual Type Chat with NPCs through the chat window.
    - High Level aggressive Mobs in most low level zones.
    - Open World dungeons, allowing for multiple camp sites with multiple groups.
    - The chance of failure.
    - Many classes had abilities that other players needed to help them play more efficiently. [Buffs, tracking, ports]
    - Epic Quests.
    - Lots of interesting smaller quests.
    - Allocating points to train skills at a trainer when a character leveled up.
    - Attributes to define at creation.
    - LEARNABLE LANGUAGES!
    - The best Bard Class I have yet to play. Just the right mix of simplicity and complexity.
    - Corpse Runs.

    You may notice that some features are in both categories. That happens :)

    A real risk vs reward system. When you could delevel over your stupidity and screwups you played a lot more carefully and thoughtfully.

    All of this and more. Perfect. If they Updated the graphics there would be no other.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Kilrain
    All of this and more. Perfect. If they Updated the graphics there would be no other.

    Didn't it have all of that when EQ2 and WoW released?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ninjapyninjapy Member UncommonPosts: 39
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    EQ Vanilla/Kunark/Velious endgame is mostly nostalgia.  Once AAs came around though the EQ endgame was awesome, and LDoN remains the best instanced system ever because of the random element involved

     

    What isn't nostalgia though is the long, meaningful leveling process in a fantastic world with fantastic cities, zones, and dungeons.

     

    Edit:  the #1 thing about EQ that made it shine so brightly and no game since has come *remotely* close is the group mechanics.

    The group mechanics were absolutely amazing.

    I agree 100 percent. I Started playing a few days after the release of Velious . My first MMO ever. Oh man good times. Sitting in Crushbone running from Orc trains to zone. Getting lost in Lower Fay. Looking at your spellbook regenerating mana in EC tunnel, then dieng from a Griffon someone trained there. Running thru Kith forest at night, yikes. Watching Bards Kite Cyclopes and Hill Giants. Running across the Karana's or what some without SOW call " Texas". Fippy  Darkpaw!

    I could go on , damn, need to get on that Emu server now.

     

  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,739
    Originally posted by faxnadu
    simply nostalgia , first love is always first love type of thing. one should not be fooled by these people barking back in the days mmos were better cause mostly they werent even there or if they were they didnt even play those games just barking out of boredom and simply cause its believed to be such a cool thing to note to everyone that mmos use to be good.

    Hows this work if UO was your first love?  Second love then?  How about having 3rd and 4th loves?  How about loving 10 years worth of MMOs and thinking newer ones suck?  I don't buy this argument.

     

    Actually EQ WAS good/great, LDoN+....not so much imo.

     

    How is telling a random person on the internet that you liked a MMO 'cool'?  Sorry, some of us do not like all the over instancing/phasing in a lot of the newer mmos.  Rose colored glasses, nostalgia, whatever else is the excuse to wish it away, don't hold water imo.

     

    I even liked one of the newer mmos, but it had content problems, that are understandable, given the nature of what made it a unique and good game for me.  It was TSW, the quests/stories and stuff I thought were different and well done...Just I think it would take a lot of time to make whole new content areas for it, given the depth that I thought they used.  I have been thinking of trying some of the new stuff out in it, but it being good, doesn't make it great. 

    GW2...Tried it for a session and was bored, it seems to directed/hand held and cluttered.  You trip over a quest every couple steps, felt like a pinball in a pinball machine, and I hated the classes I tried...I was really thinking GW2 was going to last me till ArcheAge or EQN.

     

    SWTOR - Decent for being like a lobby game, and playing the story, even thought the light and dark stories are about 99% the same, as me and my wife did the same class, but the opposite options, so I was comparing and talking about it the whole way.  Once I was done with the story, I was done with the MMO.  So I considered I got my money worth.

     

    Those are the 2 I bought recently (besides TSW), so I had a playing session past beta for GW2, and played the story in TOR and TSW...So bad for me, and two where I got my money worth...Nothing good or great I wanted to stay and play.

     

    I do not have gamer ADD, I always stayed in MMOs for at least a year, until Rift.  Only played WoW beta, didn't like it either.  So I am not overly joyed that a MMO here and there is good to play the story through.  I want a mmo with a world to play in and stay playing.  I found that in multiple mmos for roughly 10 years, but not in Rift, TOR, TSW, GW2, and many other trials/betas (Neverwinter being the latest).

     

    People like different stuff, a lot of people obviously love WoW, TOR, Rift, Neverwinter as a home, me not so much, and glasses/nostalgia don't have a thing to do with it.

     

     

     

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by Rusque

    EQ was so good that no one left it to play WoW. In fact, WoW just never took off, the MMO community didn't support it and it fell flat with only 20,000 subs.

    uh, 99.99% of WoW players never played EQ

    WoW had 12 million player at it's peak, EQ had 600k

    Sure, some people went to play WoW, but WoW didn't kill EQ.

    EQ and WoW were very very different games, WoW was a casual quest grinder, EQ was an extremely brutal XP grinder, especially during GoD when WoW launched.

     

    Most EQ players who went to WoW were guilds who enjoyed a more casual game, and people with families who couldn't devote the time to socialise anymore, and wanted to progress solo and get things done in 30 minutes instead of hours.

    There's a real misunderstanding about EQ when players say "WoW is an EQ clone", they're extremely different games. They're statements from players who never played EQ.

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192
    Originally posted by faxnadu
    simply nostalgia , first love is always first love type of thing. one should not be fooled by these people barking back in the days mmos were better cause mostly they werent even there or if they were they didnt even play those games just barking out of boredom and simply cause its believed to be such a cool thing to note to everyone that mmos use to be good.


    LOL, ok...you keep thinking that.

     

    just so you know though,youre very much wrong.

  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,739
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Kilrain
    All of this and more. Perfect. If they Updated the graphics there would be no other.


    Didn't it have all of that when EQ2 and WoW released?

     

    They have done a few updates, but it is just polish to the old, people still think it's too dated and can't get passed it.  I can still play UO in the 2D client, so it doesn't bother me so much.  I wasn't a big fan of the LDoN+ content, stuff started getting a little too instanced for me.  People wanted to run missions in later expansions and get the rare drop and such.  I did one of the same ones like 35-40 times and the drop didn't happen for a SK we played with, I was done, I was bored to death of doing it, and I think it soured me on instanced content ever since.  My wife did the same mission almost 100 times total, as she kept helping the guy and it never dropped. 

     

    So I am hopeful that EQN isn't the same old over instancing that everything seems to be anymore.

     

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192
    [mod edit]

    because MMO's today cant do what EQ does.Plain and simple,I want a world to explore,I want to be dropped into a world where I decide my content,my adventure.I want danger,I want risk.I dont want my hand held,I dont want signs telling me "OVER HERE" with big waving arms.I dont want to be pampered nor feel like everyday is my birthday.I want to be  unique as opposed to everyone else,who all look the same in todays MMO's.

     

    Im a grown man,not a baby..treat me as such

  • GrailerGrailer Member UncommonPosts: 893
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    Graphic explanation:

     

    What EQ felt like when you started playing in the 90s:

     

    What current MMO feel like when you start playing:

     

    This sums it up .  I remember starting as a dark elf and fighting skeletons ,  was amazing at the time because the only 3d game I had played before that was Wolf3d .

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    EQ was a game with kick to it. When you died in EQ, it sucked, bad, you messed up and you were paying for it big time, lost XP, lost corpse, lost gear.

    Getting back to your corpse, pulling your group back together, getting rebuffed, meditating, everyone who couldn't handle it, who didn't want to devote themselves to this game got filtered out, you were left with dedicated players

    You learned how to approach people, you learned how to get things done.

     

    You learned how to motivate others, you learned how to gather 100 people around you who would listen to you every word, because they knew you would listen to theirs when their time to get help came around.

    That's why during EQ and a bit into WoW, some companies actually were asking for guild leaders to join them, because they knew that EQ players GET what motivates others, they GET social structures, they GET what it takes to get people in-line all behind the same goal, they're articulate and skillful at what they do. And that's community building.

    EQ = community

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Member UncommonPosts: 2,059
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    Both AC and DAOC were technically superior to original EQ in every way, but neither game held the same effect on its players that EQ did.  Maybe because both of those games came after EQ and you already had an idea how to play them, but neither had the community EQ had.

     

    If you talk about original EQ, you have to get your time periods correct.  Original Everquest was two, and only two, expansions.  Kunark and Velious.  That's it.  Luclin is NOT considered a part of original Everquest.  It played counter to the vision of original EQ.  If you are talking about "quad kiting in the Plane of Fire...."lol, that is well beyond the time frame of what we are talking about.

     

    So basically 1999, 2000, and part of 2001.  That's it.  Everything after that does not matter.  The game changed for the worse.  Here is one example.  Luclin added portals from the wizard Spires to a central Hub on the moon....effectively destroying the world in terms of travel time.  Planes of Power added an auction house....and anyone can tell you the very FIRST day of that expansion, the GFay and Eastern Commons zones were forever ghost towns.

     

    If you played EQ in those first three years, you played original EQ.  If you played after, you played a totally different game.  I hate to pull the "grumpy old man" card, but that is the truth.  So disregard any post in this thread that contains anything about Luclin or the Planes of Powers, or Alternate Advancements....because that was not original EQ.

     

    At this point in time, only the name is the same.  Everything is different.  There are progression servers, but there is no real point in playing them.

    Whatever you say.  I played EQ from the beta.  THE BETA.  I played during Kunark, Velious, Luclin, PoP, that other "expansion" that wasn't really much of an expansion, and LDoN which I quit around the middle of do to real life obligations.

    Because I talked about one instance of Wizard quad kiting, which you quoted, and then make a bold statement that I was playing a completely different game... just Arghhh.  Wizards and Druids were actually the best solo class in the original EQ, even more so than Planes of Power which I used as an example.  You could quad kite effectively in several Kunark zones back then.  Bards actually became the best solo class in terms of EXP Planes of Power and beyond.  The statement was made towards someone who claimed you couldn't solo as effectively as a group which was simply untrue as any of the strong solo classes (Necromancer, Wizard, Druid, Bard, Magician, Shaman, Necromancer, and Enchanter later on) could actually get EXP and later AA points as effective as a normal group.  Classes that weren't those listed were forced into groups.

    Saying it doesn't matter or EQ post Velious (your opinion, and again I also hear people state different expansions for when they feel EQ "changed") is absurd.  Absolutely absurd.  Luclin and PoP added a lot to the game.  It made raid bosses far more challenging than the tank and spank or AoE spamming fights they were previously.  They added AA points, which added tons of playability and longevity to the game.  East Commonlands tunnel did not become a ghost town, at least not on Luclin as people still traded there regularly after the Bazaar (WHICH IS NOT AN AUCTION HOUSE) was implemented as you couldn't haggle with offline players.  Spires had massive wait times associated with them, just like the boat upwards of 15 minutes, so it was still more effective to get ported around by a Wizard or Druid which oddly enough nobody seems to complain that they could essentially fast travel themselves and others.

    Why is there no point in playing on a progression server?  The progression server is old school Everquest as you put it.  Tell me why exactly you aren't playing on the progression server if you love EQ so much.

    It's nostalgia, man.  Stop kidding yourself.  [mod edit]  There are some fantastic things in EQ that I wish would be implemented in modern MMOs, but you people are making it out to be a perfect game that every single modern MMO should follow their design principles exactly.  Frankly, if SoE listens to you guys EQ Next is going to be a HORRIBLE game.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    The mere fact EQ has 100+ man raids during PoP made it special. 

    I remember when I had to do my Epic fight and my Guild leader said to the raid of some 70 other players that I was going to lead the guild tonight. I felt my tongue fall into the back of my throat, I never lead 70 players in my life.

    EQ forced you to learn how to lead, it forced you to understand social structures, when those 70 people died, it taught you how to get them back up and motivate them to try again, and again and again deep into the night, and when you did win, you knew you could depend on all 70 of them, they were your guildies and nothing could come between us. The game didn't matter, it was the people.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    Originally posted by faxnadu
    simply nostalgia , first love is always first love type of thing. one should not be fooled by these people barking back in the days mmos were better cause mostly they werent even there or if they were they didnt even play those games just barking out of boredom and simply cause its believed to be such a cool thing to note to everyone that mmos use to be good.

    Has very little to do with nostalgia.

    I played other MMO, I played many other multiplayer games.

    The only friends I still speak to daily are from 1 game, Everquest.

    I can remember where I grouped with them, where I raided with them, where I laughed with them, where I argued with them, where I told them about myself and they about themselves.

    EQ was a social game, and that's what made it special, not nostalgia. If it was nostalgia I would care about other games I used to play, and I don't, I care about none but EQ.

  • bingbongbrosbingbongbros Member UncommonPosts: 689
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    EQ Vanilla/Kunark/Velious endgame is mostly nostalgia.  Once AAs came around though the EQ endgame was awesome, and LDoN remains the best instanced system ever because of the random element involved

     

    What isn't nostalgia though is the long, meaningful leveling process in a fantastic world with fantastic cities, zones, and dungeons.

     

    Edit:  the #1 thing about EQ that made it shine so brightly and no game since has come *remotely* close is the group mechanics.

    The group mechanics were absolutely amazing.

    I agree with everything except LDoN. I hate that expansion with a passion.  It was the creation of instances and ruined the rest of the game for a long time.  Zones became ghost towns and all people wanted to do was grind the same instances over and over and over.  Nobody wanted to chill out and chit chat between pulls.  It was just kill hurry kill hurry!!!! Rinse repeat.

     

    I wish LDoN had never been created, and it's SOE's fault that every game now a days is instanced all to hell because they birthed the monster.

    Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
    Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
    Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.

  • wesjrwesjr Member UncommonPosts: 506
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    I played that game in 1999, jumped on right before they opened up the plane of air.  This was wayyyy back in the day, even before Kedge had any mobs inside.  I started on one of the Zek severs, which was team based PvP, so that added a lot.

     

    If you did not play the game at or around that specific time (I will say pre or post Kunark, maybe up to Velious) then you missed out on THE greatest gaming experience you could ever had.  Anyone who says it was mostly nostalgia did not play....period.

     

    The game basically worked.  The graphics were strictly 1999 stuff, but it was 1999 so it did not really matter.  The animations or original EQ are still better than the Luclin upgraded animations (which shows you how BAD those animations were).

     

    What made EQ great was not really the game, though the game WAS great.  It was the community.  This was the first, and still the best in-game community.  You could not solo the game.  You had to join groups, your character took forever to level and you better believe you got a reputation, especially on the PvP servers.  There was no auction house.  You sat in GFay or Eastern Commons and were trying to wheel and deal your way to phat loot.  Those zones usually had a couple hundred people in them during prime time and whenever you hear people say "I want to the zones to feel alive" this is what they are talking about.

     

    Here is the secret.  Every single MMO to come after was designed around the premise of what your character could NOT do.  This is what sank EQ2, by the way.  Everquest was designed around what your character COULD do.  For example.  The monk class could feign death.  People figured out how to use that to pull and separate mobs.  If you were good (and I was good) you could take your level 32 monk and go into Sol A (lesser dungeon) and park your monkly behind behind the bar and split/pull/solo those mobs there AND sneak behind the goblin merchant to sell that loot.  Yes, it was dangerous.  One wrong move and you were RUNNING to the zone (and you would get hit with spells to break your FD and sometimes you would get caught in that horrible auto-spin...../ugh).

     

    The point is people figured out how to do great things with their characters.  Necros figured out they were solo gods if played right, enchanters even more so.  Druids would kite things around the above world zones.....and warriors would complain..lol.  Rangers were gimped and stayed gimped until they added archery AAs, unlimited quiver and all that stuff.

     

    Really, it was the community.  You had actual friends that you probably still have today.  To get to the end level, you had to have friends.  You needed them, and they needed you.  The idea of a lobby based game did not even exist at the time.  You would spend HOURS retrieving corpses on a failed dungeon run....and believe it or not, those were some of the best times you could have in the game.

     

    See, people now thing corpse runs are a problem.  But what they do not understand, what they cannot possibly understand, is that those corpse runs provided an actual foundation which you would build in-game relations with other players.  Yes, it could be frustrating...but there was NEVER a time in my long EQ career (and it sometimes seemed like a career) where if you really needed help, someone would not come from zones away to help you.  Try getting that kind of help in any MMO today.  You can't, because they are designed for solo convenience.

     

     

    Here are some following things only EQ vets will chuckle about.

     

    -When you were in Castle Mistmoore, and you were level 25 and you started to see plate wearing, dark-elf NPCs.....you went "gulp".  The first time you heard "D'Vinn to ZONEqiseqs."  You had no idea what it meant.....but every time after that you knew exactly what it meant. 

     

    -God help you if you took a left when you should have taken a right when you went the wrong way through Runnyeye to reach the Gorge....god have mercy on you. 

     

    -Hey, there is an underwater dungeon called Kedge Keep....let's check it out."  7 minutes later after that damned fishe pierced you to death  "Is there any MAGI in the zone who can summon underwater stones.

     

    -"Boat is stuck....can I get a bard to locate corpse pleaseeeee?!?"

     

    -"OMG OMG OMG Frenzy is up....huryyy.."  Just as you pulled a bunch of other mobs.

     

    -Two steps from the GFay/LFay zone in on a PVP server.  "Your feet adhere to the ground"  Then you see it....three gnomes, one of the a necro and probably two wizards....this is where the hatred of Gnomes in every online MMO came from.  This single incident, multiplied 100 times, every single night in GFay on those PVP servers.

     

    -Looking at that level bar on your Ranger at level 38.....come on, one more orange until SOW.

     

    -And, of course, running from GFay all the way to Qeynos.  Fighting no mobs, running from everything that even came close to you.  Summoning up every ounce of courage you had to travel the walls of Kithicor (if you were there after the dreaded change) figuring out the damned maze in Highpass.....seeing the long ramp down and the VAST Karana zones on autorun....finally making it to Qeynos and thinking you accomplished something truly mighty at level 9 (and you DID)

     

     

    People who never played EQ scoff at those type of experiences.  They will tell you "no thanks, that does not sound like fun at all"....but it really WAS fun.  Those were some of the best times you ever had in an online game, just admit it.

     

    THIS x100!

     

    That is what I remember the most..

    I do think alot of it is becuase this was really our '1st' for MMO's, I played The Realm before getting an invite to EQ Bata, played beta for about 1 day swore I would never play that game, I played on Talon Zek up untill PoP expansion.

     

    Lets hope EqNext can bring a little of EQ vanilla back!

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432

    One thing I forgot to include in my list was Sever Types.

    EQ had servers for PvP, PvE, Normal, RP, and 2 "No Rules". That is 5 variations of the same game, set up for different types of play styles.

    I am sure EQ was not the first, and I know WoW had a similar set up. Today's MMOs? Not so much. Every server (if an MMO has defined servers) is "for everyone", no matter what.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


This discussion has been closed.