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MMORPGs Are Dead -- How to Resurrect the Genre

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    I want every MMO to cater to just my wishes and needs. Because obviously i am 50 years old and the whole world revolves around me.
    For me, this is false. I am truly happy that millions of players enjoy MMOs today. I really am.

    I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when." If *you* can not handle that request, then I wonder who really is the one wanting EVERY MMO made to be to their liking, being the center of the universe.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    I want every MMO to cater to just my wishes and needs. Because obviously i am 50 years old and the whole world revolves around me.

    For me, this is false. I am truly happy that millions of players enjoy MMOs today. I really am.

     

    I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when." If *you* can not handle that request, then I wonder who really is the one wanting EVERY MMO made to be to their liking, being the center of the universe.

    That's asking quite a lot though, isn't it? To ask a development studio to tailor a game to your specific wants and needs?

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Early MMORPGs had no sense of pacing and involved some truly awful timesinks.  Modern MMORPGs are much better at pacing, even if they're still unreliable at providing high quality gameplay.
    But they DID have a sense of pacing, just not what you found enjoyable. It was just too slow for your tastes. Does not mean they did not have a sense of pacing.

    I agree that some of the time sinks I did not enjoy. But we differ greatly on what a "time sink" is. Anything one does in a game is a "time sink." It takes time away from the player that they could be doing something else. It keeps them playing. Our "tolerances" differ, neither one being "superior."

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,865
    You can't resurrect something that is not dead.
  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 418
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    I want every MMO to cater to just my wishes and needs. Because obviously i am 50 years old and the whole world revolves around me.

    For me, this is false. I am truly happy that millions of players enjoy MMOs today. I really am.

     

    I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when." If *you* can not handle that request, then I wonder who really is the one wanting EVERY MMO made to be to their liking, being the center of the universe.

    That's asking quite a lot though, isn't it? To ask a development studio to tailor a game to your specific wants and needs?

    Yes, how dare he want for something. He should be more like the buddha if he wants to post in the same threads as your majesty.

  • SinisterFSinisterF Member Posts: 1

    It is possible that you do not enjoy MMOs as much as before however the genre is very far from been dead. It would be easy to blame the games on the market but the truth is that there is plenty of high quality MMOs and if you can't find any that you enjoy well I'm sorry to say that but the problem is you.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    I want every MMO to cater to just my wishes and needs. Because obviously i am 50 years old and the whole world revolves around me.

    For me, this is false. I am truly happy that millions of players enjoy MMOs today. I really am.

     

    I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when." If *you* can not handle that request, then I wonder who really is the one wanting EVERY MMO made to be to their liking, being the center of the universe.

    That's asking quite a lot though, isn't it? To ask a development studio to tailor a game to your specific wants and needs?

    Yes, how dare he want for something. He should be more like the buddha if he wants to post in the same threads as your majesty.

    Settle down there buddy.

     

    It's fine to want things or prefer things, but expecting that perfect game that fits your specific wants and needs will inevitably lead to disappointment. The developers actually have to make decisions about what kind of systems and content go into the game. For instance, you can not both have a LFD system and not have one simultaneously. As the list of features and types of content grows longer, it gets harder and harder to hit that sweet spot for anyone in specific.

     

    And so, do you not think that it is a lot to ask of a development studio to tailor a game to your specific wants and needs?

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by colddog04

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    I want every MMO to cater to just my wishes and needs. Because obviously i am 50 years old and the whole world revolves around me.
    For me, this is false. I am truly happy that millions of players enjoy MMOs today. I really am.I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when." If *you* can not handle that request, then I wonder who really is the one wanting EVERY MMO made to be to their liking, being the center of the universe.
    That's asking quite a lot though, isn't it? To ask a development studio to tailor a game to your specific wants and needs?
    Really? Does not every gamer seek to find games that they enjoy?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    "In a world where MMOs are on the brink of destruction, one man can save them all. He is...

    The Revenue Generator!"

    Honestly this industry is just about to get interesting. You watch...
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by colddog04

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    I want every MMO to cater to just my wishes and needs. Because obviously i am 50 years old and the whole world revolves around me.

    For me, this is false. I am truly happy that millions of players enjoy MMOs today. I really am.

     

    I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when." If *you* can not handle that request, then I wonder who really is the one wanting EVERY MMO made to be to their liking, being the center of the universe.


    That's asking quite a lot though, isn't it? To ask a development studio to tailor a game to your specific wants and needs?
    Really? Does not every gamer seek to find games that they enjoy?

    Yeah, definitely. Sometimes it just seems like the expectations of what people want are so high and so specific that people sometimes miss out on some of the good stuff that is out there.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by colddog04
    It's fine to want things or prefer things, but expecting that perfect game that fits your specific wants and needs will inevitably lead to disappointment. The developers actually have to make decisions about what kind of systems and content go into the game. For instance, you can not both have a LFD system and not have one simultaneously. As the list of features and types of content grows longer, it gets harder and harder to hit that sweet spot for anyone in specific.And so, do you not think that it is a lot to ask of a development studio to tailor a game to your specific wants and needs?
    Let me see if I got this right...

    For example sake only:
    You like LFD systems. MMOs include this feature. You are happy.
    I don't like LFD systems. I am selfish for wanting an MMO that does not have this feature.

    Now, let's reverse this:
    I like LFD systems. MMOs include this feature. I am happy.
    You don't like LFD systems. Now, are you selfish for wanting a game that does not have this feature?

    Is that pretty much the point?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by colddog04
    It's fine to want things or prefer things, but expecting that perfect game that fits your specific wants and needs will inevitably lead to disappointment. The developers actually have to make decisions about what kind of systems and content go into the game. For instance, you can not both have a LFD system and not have one simultaneously. As the list of features and types of content grows longer, it gets harder and harder to hit that sweet spot for anyone in specific.

     

    And so, do you not think that it is a lot to ask of a development studio to tailor a game to your specific wants and needs?


    Let me see if I got this right...

     

    For example sake only:
    You like LFD systems. MMOs include this feature. You are happy.
    I don't like LFD systems. I am selfish for wanting an MMO that does not have this feature.

    Now, let's reverse this:
    I like LFD systems. MMOs include this feature. I am happy.
    You don't like LFD systems. Now, are you selfish for wanting a game that does not have this feature?

    Is that pretty much the point?

    No... that's not my point. Why would it not be possible to like a game with or without a LFD system? It's the specificity of the wants that make it nearly impossible to enjoy anything because it is nearly impossible for developers to meet enough of the criteria laid out by someone that wants something so specific.

  • WightyWighty Member UncommonPosts: 699

    Simple give every gamer that expects they should have everything for free a lobotomy and restore MMO's to the glory days of the pre WOW era

     

    Otherwise gamer entitlement, and content locusts will continue to ruin every single game that come out...

     

    Respect to all the indy devs who are taking the "screw the masses" road and making niche sub games catering to a smaller group of people who understand the market and do not want loads of F2Pers leeching off them.

    What are your other Hobbies?

    Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by colddog04

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    Let me see if I got this right...For example sake only:
    You like LFD systems. MMOs include this feature. You are happy.
    I don't like LFD systems. I am selfish for wanting an MMO that does not have this feature.Now, let's reverse this:
    I like LFD systems. MMOs include this feature. I am happy.
    You don't like LFD systems. Now, are you selfish for wanting a game that does not have this feature?Is that pretty much the point?

    No... that's not my point. Why would it not be possible to like a game with or without a LFD system? It's the specificity of the wants that make it nearly impossible to enjoy anything because it is nearly impossible for developers to meet enough of the criteria laid out by someone that wants something so specific.
    I took the one feature you mentioned as an example. Of course it is going to be specific. That does not negate the premise of "shoe on the other foot."

    The general feel of MMOs today are what I find lacking. This equates to many, many things working in tandem. No MMO released lately have any kind of longevity for me. I have no vested interest in any character I create. The journey to the end is over before it begins. Once there, there is nothing that interests me.

    It is not as "specific" as you are implying. It is much easier and briefer to mention one or two features. I could add a lot more to what I mentioned above. Wouldn't do any good. Some people would probably not even make it to the end of the post.

    Truth be told, I don't group enough for a LFD system to matter that much to me. However, how character evolves makes all the difference to me. If you want to say this a "specificity", so be it. It is much more involved, though.

    Does a game have to be perfect? Of course not! But there sure is a lot of wiggle room between an MMO being enjoyable and perfect.

    PS: This also goes hand in hand to the replies that suggest MMOs with a poster's posted wants in a game. Just because a game has "deep crafting" or is "a sandbox" does not automatically mean that MMO will be enjoyable to that poster.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by colddog04

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    Let me see if I got this right...

     

    For example sake only:
    You like LFD systems. MMOs include this feature. You are happy.
    I don't like LFD systems. I am selfish for wanting an MMO that does not have this feature.

    Now, let's reverse this:
    I like LFD systems. MMOs include this feature. I am happy.
    You don't like LFD systems. Now, are you selfish for wanting a game that does not have this feature?

    Is that pretty much the point?


    No... that's not my point. Why would it not be possible to like a game with or without a LFD system? It's the specificity of the wants that make it nearly impossible to enjoy anything because it is nearly impossible for developers to meet enough of the criteria laid out by someone that wants something so specific.
    I took the one feature you mentioned as an example. Of course it is going to be specific. That does not negate the premise of "shoe on the other foot."

     

    The general feel of MMOs today are what I find lacking. This equates to many, many things working in tandem. No MMO released lately have any kind of longevity for me. I have no vested interest in any character I create. The journey to the end is over before it begins. Once there, there is nothing that interests me.

    It is not as "specific" as you are implying. It is much easier and briefer to mention one or two features. I could add a lot more to what I mentioned above. Wouldn't do any good. Some people would probably not even make it to the end of the post.

    Truth be told, I don't group enough for a LFD system to matter that much to me. However, how character evolves makes all the difference to me. If you want to say this a "specificity", so be it. It is much more involved, though.

    Does a game have to be perfect? Of course not! But there sure is a lot of wiggle room between an MMO being enjoyable and perfect.

    PS: This also goes hand in hand to the replies that suggest MMOs with a poster's posted wants in a game. Just because a game has "deep crafting" or is "a sandbox" does not automatically mean that MMO will be enjoyable to that poster.

    I know you can add a lot more features to the list of things you want and that is precisely the problem. The more that you add to that list, the more difficult it will be for you to find whatever it is you're looking for. On top of that you say that you are looking for a "general feel" and you talk about many things having to work in tandem. You say that how a character evolves is what you care about and you even go on to say that it's very involved.

     

    These things all add up to something very specific that you have created in your head. And because the game gets so specific, it's going to be rare or impossible for a developer to actually meet your needs.

     

    Anyway, I doubt I'm going to convince you of anything. I just think it's tough for those people that are looking for a game to fit them instead of looking to fit into a game.

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,025

    Great conversation a year ago. However ...

     

     

    We clearly see what direction mmo development is taking with recent Kickstarter drives and the many sandbox games coming out and in development and the endless forum posts, blogs and even MMORPG staff articles about this subject over the last 2 or more years.

     

    This thread is sort of like deciding to debate what happened to the space shuttle Challenger a year or 2 after the accident when it is already well documented. 

    You stay sassy!

  • GrailerGrailer Member UncommonPosts: 893

    Seems like most MMO's these days are a camp of NPC in an area with ! above head,   you basically do the quests they give you then one quest will lead you to another area with another camp of NPC .

     

    Discovery is dead unless you sway away from the linear questing .

     

    Almost all the quests are solo only so other people are really just annoying because they potentially get in the way of your quest.

     

    You could basically level from 1 to Max level without having a single person on your friends list .

     

    EQ1 did it right in a lot of ways but people whined because it was too hard , instead of looking at the problem they dumbed it down to the discraceful MMO's that we have today .

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by colddog04
    Anyway, I doubt I'm going to convince you of anything. I just think it's tough for those people that are looking for a game to fit them instead of looking to fit into a game.
    It is rough, let me tell ya :)

    I buy clothes that fit, not ones I can change my body into fitting. I play games for enjoyment, not to try to find out where that enjoyment may be hidden.

    I can usually find enjoyment in almost anything I do. It comes down to if that enjoyment is worth the trouble of finding and if it will last long enough to warrant that search.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     

    Originally posted by colddog04
    Anyway, I doubt I'm going to convince you of anything. I just think it's tough for those people that are looking for a game to fit them instead of looking to fit into a game.

    It is rough, let me tell ya :)

     

    I buy clothes that fit, not ones I can change my body into fitting. I play games for enjoyment, not to try to find out where that enjoyment may be hidden.

    I can usually find enjoyment in almost anything I do. It comes down to if that enjoyment is worth the trouble of finding and if it will last long enough to warrant that search.

    Yeah, but that's not really a good analogy because you CAN find a shirt that fits and you apparently CAN NOT find an MMORPG that fits. And the reason is, at least in my opinion, because you have created a shape that only a very specifically shaped shirt will fit. And I don't really mean you specifically, but everyone that is looking so hard to scratch that itch they got from whatever earlier game they were playing that they liked so much.

     

    And here is where this all started: 'I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when."' Do you know if this is even possible?

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Member UncommonPosts: 2,527
    Originally posted by ColumbiaTrue

    The quest. The journey. The world. The community. The essential ingredients combined to create an enriching, complex, and satisfying---indeed memorable---MMORPG experience. Today's games fall sort of creating lasting, lifelong memories. Instead, they are designed to provide temporary, fleeting contentment. 

     

    An MMORPG should not just be about the game itself. An MMORPG is more than gaming. It is about building genuine, authentic relationships in an environment conducive to building bonds of friendship. 

     

    An MMORPG world has to feel rich, diverse, and dynamic. Most MMORPG worlds are so static and stale that I cannot bear to play them --- even for free.

     

    The journey. An individual, unique, and customized character. Different from but similar to others. A part of the world and a part of a community. However, the opportunity to define one's own destiny, choose a path (create a path).

     

     

    The problem with the genre today is that they are too much like "GAMES" and not simulated worlds which is what the original MMORPGs were, a 2nd existence which includes all those "boring parts" and "downtime" that all the casuals and mainstream complain about but only a small fraction have ever experienced.

    Today we have not MMORPG's but single player games with online components masquerading as MMO's, too much focused on theme park "hand-holding design" and combat and nonexistent "endgame" with the exception of raids that only a segment of the player bases in all MMOs actually want to play still, pretty much leaving out all other options and play styles for other types of players who like crafting, social events-activities, open world pvp, world building, and other features and mechanics that were abandoned years ago in favor of raiding and shoe box instanced pvp and grinding dailies..... where did we go wrong?

    The community is nonexistent in MMO's cause there is nothing implemented to help those to foster a community, where bad behavior and trolling is rewarded and no tools to punish those who take advantage of the system, in MMORPG's of the past back when they were 2nd existence, a player who tries to manipulate prices on an exchange or from your shop options were there to ban them from buying your goods or entering your stores or even your town, trolls and ninja looters would be put on blacklists and spread around to well known guilds who to ban from their runs. Now all a troll or just a scumbag in a MMO has to do today is change servers or pay to change their name instead of being stuck with a "bad' reputation.

    Convenience, accessibility, and catering to players who playtime spans 1 hr a week has transformed the "simulated worlds" in a simple, single player lobby game all for the sake of the bottom dollar, and what have we gotten as a reward for that "transformation"? A "GAME" ... that people play for 1-3 months before sailing on to the next "game".

    I think developers have forgotten what a MMORPG is and forgot that you can be successful if you make good "2nd Life" no where does it say you need to make billions of this stuff you can be niche and make money if it spread on the good word that will grow into something more than you think it would, too many people want to make it big right off the bat ... it doesn't work like that allow for things to grow and flesh out. Thats the problem, the current generation of players want it NOW NOW NOW!!! or they threaten to leave.

    The current generation of MMORPGs or MMO's in development are shifting slowly back to that simulated world atmosphere experience, and one in particular is Star Citizen which will be the true definition of what a MMORPG is a "2nd existence".


  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    But they DID have a sense of pacing, just not what you found enjoyable. It was just too slow for your tastes. Does not mean they did not have a sense of pacing.

    I agree that some of the time sinks I did not enjoy. But we differ greatly on what a "time sink" is. Anything one does in a game is a "time sink." It takes time away from the player that they could be doing something else. It keeps them playing. Our "tolerances" differ, neither one being "superior."

    That's exactly what a timesink is.  Our definition of timesink isn't different, only what constitutes an empty or excessive timesink.

    A game is going to occupy players' time, and it's up to that game to decide whether they fill the player's time with interesting decisions or whether they force the player to tolerate empty non-gameplay, or excessive repetition.  And those were the primary failings of early MMORPGs, and the reason early MMORPGs were not more successful than they were.  

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    At first, prostitutes are great. You pay for exactly what you think you want & it's way cheaper than an actual relationship. And if you've never had a real relationship, you would wonder why anyone would be in one if you can either pay a prostitute for exactly what you think you need, or pay nothing and pull a manual, solo mission.

    On the other hand, those of us who have had a real relationships know the beauty & fulfillment of the genuine article & you can't fool us with your one dimensional, unskilled, lifeless romp, that is over as soon as it begins. Zero lasting satisfaction.
     

     

    Well said, perhaps you have given those who never experienced what we are talking about a glimpse of what it was like. Still is to a certain extent if you can find a good guild. But that's not easy these days and those guilds are more putting up with the MMO they are playing than loving it.

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower Member Posts: 1,245
    Originally posted by ColumbiaTrue

    The quest. The journey. The world. The community. The essential ingredients combined to create an enriching, complex, and satisfying---indeed memorable---MMORPG experience. Today's games fall sort of creating lasting, lifelong memories. Instead, they are designed to provide temporary, fleeting contentment. 

     

    An MMORPG should not just be about the game itself. An MMORPG is more than gaming. It is about building genuine, authentic relationships in an environment conducive to building bonds of friendship. 

     

    An MMORPG world has to feel rich, diverse, and dynamic. Most MMORPG worlds are so static and stale that I cannot bear to play them --- even for free.

     

    The journey. An individual, unique, and customized character. Different from but similar to others. A part of the world and a part of a community. However, the opportunity to define one's own destiny, choose a path (create a path).

     

     

    Plenty of good mmorpg's out there but community ruined it for me thats problem not games it self.

     

    A mmorpg for me can only be fun and last long if community is nice and social and becouse this is not the case anymore i realy dont see how we can ressurect mmorpg genre if community not first change and become as it was 10+  years ago.

    I realy dont see this happen so for me nomatter how good a mmoprg is if its occupide by many rotten apples it becomes rotten from inside like a C......

    I'll stick to co-op and solo and leave mmo for what it is unless drastic changes in behavior and social skills of community suddely change(i very doub that) i prolly won't play mmo's anymore.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by colddog04
    And here is where this all started: 'I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when."' Do you know if this is even possible?
    Is it possible? Of course it is. Will it be done? I highly doubt it.

    Because of the numbers that play these MMOs now for a couple of months and then leave, I do not see a developer/publisher setting their sights lower (number-wise or a more specific audience) for longevity. It is hard for a business to look away from easy money.

    That is big question and wherein lies my "hope." As things look right now, I do not think it will happen.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    At first, prostitutes are great. You pay for exactly what you think you want & it's way cheaper than an actual relationship. And if you've never had a real relationship, you would wonder why anyone would be in one if you can either pay a prostitute for exactly what you think you need, or pay nothing and pull a manual, solo mission.

    On the other hand, those of us who have had a real relationships know the beauty & fulfillment of the genuine article & you can't fool us with your one dimensional, unskilled, lifeless romp, that is over as soon as it begins. Zero lasting satisfaction.
     

     

    Well said, perhaps you have given those who never experienced what we are talking about a glimpse of what it was like. Still is to a certain extent if you can find a good guild. But that's not easy these days and those guilds are more putting up with the MMO they are playing than loving it.

    nah .. sub MMOs charge you for your fun. The better analogy is that you can pay for one mistress until she is old and unappealing, or go for many prostittutes. If you are going to pay for it ... more variety with no commitment is better.

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