Themepark pvp > Sandbox pvp

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  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Robokapp sounds like you're trying to find in MMOs what is not a typical MMO feature. have you tried MOBAs ?  MMOs make weak e-sports. they're just not designed for it. 

    Well let's not use the term "e-sports", when "great PVP" is more accurate.  All e-sports games are great PVP, but not all great PVP games are e-sports.  It has to do with how good a game is for spectation, and some games are great PVP but not great for spectating.

    With that said, MMOs can make fantastic PVP games.  Planetside 1 was one of my favorite PVP games of all time.  It almost entirely eliminated non-skill elements and that's what made it great.

    Only MMORPGs are fundamentally bad PVP.  MMOs are free to be good PVP if designed that way.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by nariusseldon Just play pure pvp instanced games like LoL or WoT.

    I do.  (Well not WoT, as the pay2win ammo broke what would otherwise be an incredibly fun and rather unique PVP game.)

    Doesn't mean I can't ask for more great MMO PVP experiences like Planetside 1 was.  I'd love to play more games designed like that.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • lolunaticlolunatic Mesa, AZMember Posts: 108
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by lolunatic
    Originally posted by bleedz
    Do tell why you think there is no skill involved with EVE? 

    The movement, lack of things to do in combat (turn on modules,zzzzzzzzz.. did i win?). OFC there are ways to play more actively, but most the time do you really have to? STATS from skillbooks making certain characters from early in the game's lifespan very strong, compared to brand new characters, its a HUGE gap, bigger than probably any game out, the new player will NEVER catch up to a character that as been there from day 1 and been skilling up since.

     

     

    let's put this claim to the test.

     

    on one side you have 'turn module on zzzz did I win.

    on the other I present this video.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLqb-m1ZZUA

     

    does it sound like 'module on, zzzzz did I win" ?

     

     

    Zerg warfare all that is, call a target, focus, listen to vent, follow along. Whoever has the biggest baddest zerg wins. Personally I like smaller arena based pvp, even BATTLEGROUND type pvp is better than zergfest.

  • DeivosDeivos Member EpicPosts: 3,692

    I feel like this is built on a rather large amount of mischaracterization.

     

    I find no qualms with 'sandbox' elements in PvP as the balance in such games shouldn't be handled at the 'everyone is equal' level, rather the capacity for asymmetry that plays a role in finding each concept a place means people get comfortable with the form of play they enjoy, assuming that at it's core the game still operates everything on a set of constants.

     

    An example I'd consider exemplary for PvP content that integrates sandbox elements would be the Renegades mod for Tribes.

     

    functionally both sides had all the same stuff, but what they could do with it lead to some wild potentials. It was also honestly the first singularly PvP game where I found myself capable of contributing to the success of the match without having to be a direct or active combatant. I could instead spend my time repairing the facilities, building new bases and warp zones, creating vehicle spawn points, and making sure other players were in shape to keep on chugging.

     

    The game was fundamentally a shooter about flying around capping people with an exploding frisbee gun, yet that mod turned it into a war scenario where victory was obtained by more than just killing an opponent. The basic level of consistency and balance was there, but the choice was vast enough that it meant multiple kinds of people could all enjoy the same game for very different reasons, and in doing so all contribute to the success of their team.

     

    Kinda established in my mind that sandbox elements can go a long way towards making a game more engrossing and entertaining without sacrificing it's stability.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin

  • MothanosMothanos MordorMember UncommonPosts: 1,910

    Your so wrong about Eve.....

    Think of Eve ships in tiers...

    You assume they all fly titans and super caps while in reality 99% fly something else in pvp, except when shit hits the fan, then the big guns are brought out to shine.

    Alot of players in Eve fly cheap ships like Frigates / Cruisers / Battle Cruisers / Battleships.

    Frigate - trained for decent skills 2 months+
    Cruisers - trained for decent skills 4 months
    Batllecruisers - also around 4 months
    Battleships - trained in around 6+ months
    Stratigic cruisers are today's jack of all trades and are flown alot

    The funny thing is the smaller ships totaly own the bigger ones.
    Eve pvp is insanly fun when you roam in your small gang and stumple upon a pimped battleship and eat him alive :)

    Where do you see a level 10 character owning a max geared Tier 15 juggernaut ?


    But in general i think you are right that themepark pvp offers more fun then sanbox pvp.
    There are exceptions in some cases tough :)

  • DivonaDivona Member UncommonPosts: 189
    This is like comparing a rugby match with World War 2.
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,909
    Originally posted by Divona
    This is like comparing a rugby match with World War 2.

    world war 2 was imbalanced. the allies had cash shop atomic bombs. How can the newer countires just getting started catch up with germany or USA who've been industrializing for nearly a century ?

     

    I think all tanks should've been made equal to mak the fighting more balanced and intereting. Also maps should be limited to 100 v 100. Germans tried to cheese Leningrad with artillery, Stalingrad sucked due to server lag...

     

    Graphics were great for a free to play though. But the grind made it feel like a second job.

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Divona
    This is like comparing a rugby match with World War 2.

    That's definitely one way of putting it. One is a relatively balanced, short-duration, finite match that affects little or nothing outside the arena. The other is an ongoing war, where battles vary in duration but the wars they are part of stretches far longer and affect far more players, including the territory they control, the politics among the factions and the cost of goods on the market.

    People who want the challenge of a rugby match would find it far less enjoyable if it was 24/7 and affected their other aspects of gameplay. Likewise, people who want warfare gameplay would find it far less enjoyable if it the persistence and lasting effects where stripped away to fit the war into a 15-45 minute window.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • asdarasdar Tequesta, FLMember UncommonPosts: 662

    I totally agree with the OP that the best PvP is a fair fight. That said I don't see how themepark promotes that. In the themepark games I've played you still level and get gear. Players that have played longer than you and have better gear will win in any fight that doesn't artificially limit players.

    If they do artificially limit you then what good was leveling that character, what good was getting that gear? (rhetorical)

    GW, not GW2, had balanced PvP after a brief, maybe 8 hour development period. That was arena fighting. Maybe your post should be something like, "I only like arena fighting."

    Bringing in Darkfall and Eve is just a distraction from your point. Those are more sandbox and you will get beaten until you build up the skills, but the solution to that isn't themepark it's getting all skills and stats maxed for the fights, then they would be fair.

    Plus you haven't given any example of a single themepark game that does have a better PvP system.

    Asdar

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordMember CommonPosts: 7,207
    Good pvp is good pvp.

    Doesn't matter if its themepark or sandbox.

    Daoc and eve had the best mmo pvp for me.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordMember CommonPosts: 7,207
    If by themepark you mean wow style pvp though. Well no in that case sandbox Is better.
  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamMember UncommonPosts: 1,702

    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Good pvp is good pvp.

    Doesn't matter if its themepark or sandbox.

    Daoc and eve had the best mmo pvp for me.

    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    If by themepark you mean wow style pvp though. Well no in that case sandbox Is better.

    image

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVMember RarePosts: 2,751

    Since when was there "sandbox" pvp and "themepark" pvp? Even themeparks often have open world pvp, sometimes as standard and sometimes on server selection. What is really being discussed is instanced pvp vs open world pvp and they don't necessarily reside in any game system in particular.

    And in my experience, instanced pvp is indeed > open world pvp. Now, OWPvP will give you occasional battles that are incredibly memorable, but on average it's dull and not very fun. Like someone else mentioned, it's either you being ganked by a larger number/higher level or it's you (and maybe your buddies) dominating someone else. It doesn't take skill level, team composition, or team size into question. PvPers like to say scripted fights are boring. But most OWPvP fights are decided long before any fighting occurs. If you look at the fight on paper, one side was pretty much always going to win unless they did something monumentally stupid.

    And to liken OWPvP to real life war . . . wtf? Yes in real life you do want advantages over your enemy, because if you lose YOU DIE. That's a critical difference. In a video game, most people play to HAVE FUN not to fight for their life. And what's fun is going up against a similarly geared, similarly leveled, and similarly skilled player and seeing who's better.

    Imagine if Chess was open world chess where Boris Gelfand shows up at pre-schools to whoop on 5 year old and then tea bagging them because he's so much better than they are. Yeah, so fun.

    I think the real dividing line is between people who want to play games as games versus people who want a game to manifest their desire for dominance over others.

  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,649
    I am not sure this is the case, but I advocate the themepark in sandbox design, so you get the best of both worlds.

     25 Agrees

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  • OnomasOnomas USAMember UncommonPosts: 1,133
    Originally posted by lolunatic   TL;DR: Sandbox = get shit on by people who have played since day 1, or just generally play a lot more than you, then strive to grind endlessly till the day you MIGHT catch up with them. themepark = play a little bit, get geared quickly, become competitive then strive to become a better player to beat BETTER players    

    This is such a poor excuse its actualy funny if you believe it.

    In a themepark you can get "sh*t" on by people that have been playing since day one. Sandbox is for your more casual players, how many sandboxes do you see someone bragging they hit end game in 36.2 hours and then whine about how boring the game is?

    You can strive to beat better players in a themepark but you cant in a sandbox? Seriously? Sandbox pvp has made a very aware and experimental pvp player over the themepark arenas that are 100% the exact same. Not much skill in that. Enter a battle group at one end, group at another, and fight to the last man..............if i want to play FPS game i will. I need strategy, a reason to go into war, and a open area to conduct missions, sneak attacks, counters, etc....... You dont get that in a 5x5 map in an arena.

    Themepark pvp is balanced and fair? Again you are wrong on many levels. You can be a level 10 and enter pvp arena with level 50+. You will get bolstered and have high health and stats. You may seem like you are doing well, but honestly a bolstered lvl 15 guy with his lvl 15 skills and lvl 15 armor will never hold up to a max leveled person with his end game armor and skills. And then many times i have joined a themepark battle and have been outnumbered on the other side sometimes as much as 3 to 1.......................yeah wheres the balance in that?????

    Almost all themepark pvp arenas i have played in are the exact same, team up, get in your corners, wait for the buzzer to go off, then rush at the first person you see until you die, zerg back, and do it all over. No skill, no strategy, and no fun when it comes to real pvp.

     

    That being said, 90% of the time i craft in mmo's, i love the business aspect of games with good player based economies! But the 10% i want to go out and get dirty............ themepark pvp doesnt even come close. Im not hardcore nor to i prey on lower leveled players for fun. I pvp for the excitement and the feel of a true battle............

    Themepark pvp just feels like the game itself, handheld, no real skill involved, tiny, short, and no feeling or excitement.

     

  • ScambugScambug EUMember UncommonPosts: 575
    Originally posted by lolunatic
    I think themeparks are WORLDS better for legitimate pvp than sandboxes.   Eve for example. The game is based around this skill queue where you can just pile on skills and they'll train and you'll get whatever benefits when they are done training. The problem is that you can have any skill you want, no skill cap, so players who having been playing since the game released have a distinct advantage over any players that haven't.  I know  eve doesn't have traditional combat, barely combat at all. But what it comes down to is your ship and the books you've trained. Not actual player skill. And other sandboxes that have come out are similar to that, AoW with inner/ scrolls, DARKFALL with the redic grind(I'm not sure about the new one never played). Themeparks to me just seem a whole lot more sportier, instead of the whole "you haven't played for a year so I shit on you instantly" deal. Devs usually work aggressively on the class balance(not counting non triple a mmos), you can't stack to many things on one character for the most part, op items are usually banned from pvp, the list really goes on and on.    TL;DR: Sandbox = get shit on by people who have played since day 1, or just generally play a lot more than you, then strive to grind endlessly till the day you MIGHT catch up with them. themepark = play a little bit, get geared quickly, become competitive then strive to become a better player to beat BETTER players    

    Your notions of what makes a sandbox are way off. Nowhere is it said that a sandbox MUST have unlimited progression. IMO that's just a bad design choice and any good sandbox doesn't have that crap.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBMember Posts: 2,030
    Given this site is well known for being the home to the vocal only Sandbox MMOs are good everything else is evil and destroying the world!!!! Crowd,I can only assume this thread is a trolling thread that seems to be working.
  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgMember UncommonPosts: 1,508
    Originally posted by lolunatic
    I think themeparks are WORLDS better for legitimate pvp than sandboxes.   Eve for example. The game is based around this skill queue where you can just pile on skills and they'll train and you'll get whatever benefits when they are done training. The problem is that you can have any skill you want, no skill cap, so players who having been playing since the game released have a distinct advantage over any players that haven't.  I know  eve doesn't have traditional combat, barely combat at all. But what it comes down to is your ship and the books you've trained. Not actual player skill. And other sandboxes that have come out are similar to that, AoW with inner/ scrolls, DARKFALL with the redic grind(I'm not sure about the new one never played). Themeparks to me just seem a whole lot more sportier, instead of the whole "you haven't played for a year so I shit on you instantly" deal. Devs usually work aggressively on the class balance(not counting non triple a mmos), you can't stack to many things on one character for the most part, op items are usually banned from pvp, the list really goes on and on.    TL;DR: Sandbox = get shit on by people who have played since day 1, or just generally play a lot more than you, then strive to grind endlessly till the day you MIGHT catch up with them. themepark = play a little bit, get geared quickly, become competitive then strive to become a better player to beat BETTER players

    Your whole logic is flawed, and made up with a few bad examples.

    Themeparks PvP is better, because it is more fair? Seriously?

    The advantage in PvP in Themeparks games is even higher than in any sandbox available. WoW Epic Gear beats everyone.. you dont even need to move... just faceroll.

    Ok.. there may be a few themeparks were the gear gap is not that huge, were you are not forced to first of all raid for month/years to become competitive, but the same is true for sandboxes.

    Secondly.. Battlegrounds sucks. If i am happy with battleground pvp, i will always choose any usual multiplayer game over a mmo. Be it any battlefield game, be it Dota 2/LoL, be it War of the Roses or whatever.. they are all a lot better than any battleground pvp in any MMORPG.

    BUT.. and that is the whole purpose of pvp in MMOs, is the larger scale of pvp you mostly will find in sandboxes like open  world pvp,  with territorial control, castle sieges and mass battle, and economic warfare. And that can no multiplayer game, or no themepark game deliver... that is why a lot of ppl like pvp in mmos.

    But ultimately.. the truth is there is not one really great pvp mmo out there. Ok, the meta game in eve is good, the scale is huge.. but the combat really sucks. Darkfall? There are so many bugs and flaws in that game, that it is even hard to call it a game at all. 

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgMember UncommonPosts: 1,508
    Originally posted by jskeets916
    Originally posted by lolunatic

     ...

    ...

    Play Lol or Wot? I mean yeah i've played LoL understand its a much better designed esport, however in no way shape or form would i say its fair to ignore modern AAA expectations and tell us to play a game with warcraft 3 graphics for pvp needs.

    themepark pvp such as WoW arenas or GW1/GW2 spvp is much more entertaining when balanced/done right than sandbox or mobas.

    LoL = click click click, gets old some prefer wasd and mouse

    Edit: Open world pvp can also be done correctly in themepark games as well, for those who want something more spontaneous and with different strategy.  I still prefer themepark open world pvp with sandbox elements over full blown sandbox for reasons stated, those who play more/started earlier are always advantaged.

    Well.. Dota2 got better graphics compared to LoL. Or why not just Battlefield 3.. you may look a very long time to find any mmorpg with better graphics.

    And endless skills is no prerequest for a sandbox. Truth is we dont have a good pvp sandbox (except EvE with the already named limitation, like boring combat)

  • lolunaticlolunatic Mesa, AZMember Posts: 108

     

      The advantage in PvP in Themeparks games is even higher than in any sandbox available. WoW Epic Gear beats everyone.. you dont even need to move... just faceroll. That's true, Epic gear is A TON better than green gear, but its EASIER THAN EVER  to get the gear you need to be competitive  

     

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