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If you not going to have levels, why still have level restricted content and linear zone pathing?

MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.

 

problem is, that they really didnt get rid of this, but simply hid them.

zones are still linear pathed buy hidden levels. 

Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction.

who likes content locks anymore?

level mechanics has grown old. But masking them won't fix the problem. Since the game is now B2 I am interested in checking i out, but would like more words and info on this area of the game.

because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

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Comments

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.

     

    problem is, that they really didnt get rid of this, but simply hid them.

    zones are still linear pathed buy hidden levels. 

    Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction.

    who likes content locks anymore?

    level mechanics has grown old. But masking them won't fix the problem. Since the game is now B2 I am interested in checking i out, but would like more words and info on this area of the game.

    because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    so you want people to be able to take o the hardest things out there right off the bat, and have no real story in a game that is based on the story and intrige???

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,622Member Uncommon

    You are not sick of level grinding, you are sick of MMO's in general.

    Time to move on.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member

    Because TSW focuses on story and as long as a MMO relies on strong story telling some linearity will be there. But you make it sound worse than it really is.

    TSW is a lot less linear and there are no questing hubs in the game. In kingsmouth for example you can start doing quests in any order.....the only thing that linear is the main story line.

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  • BjelarBjelar RullumpPosts: 384Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

     

    Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction.

    who likes content locks anymore?

    Well, they never intended to design the game you think they should have designed. 

    To me, char development is key, it is the reason I play.

    Endgame to me is the phase where progression slows down, and it gets a lot less fun to play. I usually make an army of alts, because leveling is the fun part.

    It doesn't matter to me if they call it levels or not, you are right, it comes down to the same thing.

    A game with nothing but endgame and very little char development sounds like hell to me. I would find it more entertaining to rip my eyebrow hairs out one by one with a pair of pliers.

  • BjelarBjelar RullumpPosts: 384Member

    The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    The char development is seamless. There is no red "level up" button in TSW that makes you go "ka-ching!" and all of a sudden you are substantially stronger.

    That's what they ment by the "no levels" part, and if they wanted to keep that a secret, they would have failed. 

    It would take people ten sec of research to find out that TSW does have char progression. How you can make that into "misleading hype" is beyond me.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.

     

    problem is, that they really didnt get rid of this, but simply hid them.

    zones are still linear pathed buy hidden levels. 

    Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction.

    who likes content locks anymore?

    level mechanics has grown old. But masking them won't fix the problem. Since the game is now B2 I am interested in checking i out, but would like more words and info on this area of the game.

    because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    so you want people to be able to take o the hardest things out there right off the bat, and have no real story in a game that is based on the story and intrige???

    Well that's what you get when you playing in a Virtural game world instead of just a game.

    you don't need levels to tell a story. That's the big misconception developers have programmed into consumers with the brainwashing.

    in the Elder Scrolls game for example. It tells a story yet, have level scaling, which by design defeats the purpose of leveling in the first place. The levels are just an illusion. 

    In a game world without levels, players create their own journey. 

    Take any major THEMEPARK MMO from today like WoW for example since its so large now and is most popular around here.

    if WoW changed all the content in the game to be the same level, lets say everything was level 95 content.

    and the game relaunched with all characters starting off as a level 95

    well you would be free to go anywhere you want, do whatever you want, an still be apart of the endgame progression.

    there would be so much you could do in a game like that. You can make your own journey, yet the story is still there and never changed. Only the mechanics that's limit you.

    image

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,168Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.

     

    problem is, that they really didnt get rid of this, but simply hid them.

    zones are still linear pathed buy hidden levels. 

    Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction.

    who likes content locks anymore?

    level mechanics has grown old. But masking them won't fix the problem. Since the game is now B2 I am interested in checking i out, but would like more words and info on this area of the game.

    because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    Maybe it's time to look at sandboxes instead of themepark MMOs, but even sandboxes have some way of 'opening up endgame content' so you can't get in there from the start.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bjelar

    The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    The char development is seamless. There is no red "level up" button in TSW that makes you go "ka-ching!" and all of a sudden you are substantially stronger.

    That's what they ment by the "no levels" part, and if they wanted to keep that a secret, they would have failed. 

    It would take people ten sec of research to find out that TSW does have char progression. How you can make that into "misleading hype" is beyond me.

    Character progression and Levels are two different terms for a reason. Look them up

    image

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,622Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.

     

    problem is, that they really didnt get rid of this, but simply hid them.

    zones are still linear pathed buy hidden levels. 

    Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction.

    who likes content locks anymore?

    level mechanics has grown old. But masking them won't fix the problem. Since the game is now B2 I am interested in checking i out, but would like more words and info on this area of the game.

    because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    so you want people to be able to take o the hardest things out there right off the bat, and have no real story in a game that is based on the story and intrige???

    Well that's what you get when you playing in a Virtural game world instead of just a game.

    you don't need levels to tell a story. That's the big misconception developers have programmed into consumers with the brainwashing.

    in the Elder Scrolls game for example. It tells a story yet, have level scaling, which by design defeats the purpose of leveling in the first place. The levels are just an illusion. 

    In a game world without levels, players create their own journey. 

    Take any major THEMEPARK MMO from today like WoW for example since its so large now and is most popular around here.

    if WoW changed all the content in the game to be the same level, lets say everything was level 95 content.

    and the game relaunched with all characters starting off as a level 95

    well you would be free to go anywhere you want, do whatever you want, an still be apart of the endgame progression.

    there would be so much you could do in a game like that. You can make your own journey, yet the story is still there and never changed. Only the mechanics that's limit you.

    No what you are describing is an MMO with level 1.

    And there is no level 2.   Hence no progression.   Oh look, there's a dog.  I will go kill it.  Oh look theres a cat.  I will go kill it.  etc etc etc.

    Put in tough monsters and dungeons and people will just run and do those and ignore the rest of the easy stuff. 

    So tell me?  Where is the * game * part in this "Virtual world" ??

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.

     

    problem is, that they really didnt get rid of this, but simply hid them.

    zones are still linear pathed buy hidden levels. 

    Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction.

    who likes content locks anymore?

    level mechanics has grown old. But masking them won't fix the problem. Since the game is now B2 I am interested in checking i out, but would like more words and info on this area of the game.

    because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    so you want people to be able to take o the hardest things out there right off the bat, and have no real story in a game that is based on the story and intrige???

    Well that's what you get when you playing in a Virtural game world instead of just a game.

    you don't need levels to tell a story. That's the big misconception developers have programmed into consumers with the brainwashing.

    in the Elder Scrolls game for example. It tells a story yet, have level scaling, which by design defeats the purpose of leveling in the first place. The levels are just an illusion. 

    In a game world without levels, players create their own journey. 

    Take any major THEMEPARK MMO from today like WoW for example since its so large now and is most popular around here.

    if WoW changed all the content in the game to be the same level, lets say everything was level 95 content.

    and the game relaunched with all characters starting off as a level 95

    well you would be free to go anywhere you want, do whatever you want, an still be apart of the endgame progression.

    there would be so much you could do in a game like that. You can make your own journey, yet the story is still there and never changed. Only the mechanics that's limit you.

    you know i have seen people who have never played WoW before buy a maxed out speced out char and hated it cause they didnt know whaat they where doing, if you wher born as a adult with a full education you would miss out on high school ( ok for some this wouldnt be to bad), if you could beat the main boss at the start of the game what would be the point of doing the rest.

    im osrry but your dream game sounds boreing to me, i suggest ya go play some sandbox games, and make sure its not a new one you want one where people just hand out all the best gear so you dont have to worry about crafting any.

    oh and you wouldnt be part of end game progression cause from what you are saying thats exactly what you dont want game progression.

     

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • BjelarBjelar RullumpPosts: 384Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Bjelar

    The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    The char development is seamless. There is no red "level up" button in TSW that makes you go "ka-ching!" and all of a sudden you are substantially stronger.

    That's what they ment by the "no levels" part, and if they wanted to keep that a secret, they would have failed. 

    It would take people ten sec of research to find out that TSW does have char progression. How you can make that into "misleading hype" is beyond me.

    Character progression and Levels are two different terms for a reason. Look them up

    Why do you repete what I said and ask me to look it up?

    My post explained how levels and char progression are two different things...

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,766Member Uncommon

    I agree with OP about the hidden levels. It sucks how they claimed theres no levels just and a lot of people fell for it.

    They hid the character levels in a skill level system. The skill wheel should have been separated into 3 tiers. Each tier covers 1/3 of the wheel and each 1/3 is completely unlocked to chose any 7 skills you want without having to "level up" your experience bar to get points to unlock skills in one linear chain. After unlocking a certain amount of skills on tier 1 you can unlock tier 2 with more powerful abilities, and so on. That way i dont waste points on skills i dont want just to unlock other skills while still keeping that sense of progression. Give skill points by completing goals and not by filling up a leveling bar. Otherwise your game is still stuck with a leveling mechanic.

    image
  • BjelarBjelar RullumpPosts: 384Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    I agree with OP about the hidden levels. It sucks how they claimed theres no levels just and a lot of people fell for it.

    How?

    Who "fell for it"?

    Pics or it didn't happen.

    The info was easily available and very accurate. It's not the game's fault if people make up their own fantasy, and don't care to check facts...

    There is no red "level up" button. You don't jump up levels. There ARE no levels.

    The game DOES have char progression, and you may call that "hidden levels" if you wish. The point is it was never made a secret.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Squeak69

    Originally posted by MMOExposed I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.   problem is, that they really didnt get rid of this, but simply hid them. zones are still linear pathed buy hidden levels.  Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction. who likes content locks anymore? level mechanics has grown old. But masking them won't fix the problem. Since the game is now B2 I am interested in checking i out, but would like more words and info on this area of the game. because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.
    so you want people to be able to take o the hardest things out there right off the bat, and have no real story in a game that is based on the story and intrige???

    Your still thinking in a linear power mindset.

    Theres no reason why you couldn't have mobs with different skillsets and dynamically reward players based on their builds.

    image
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  • CalypsxCalypsx Brentwood, CAPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.

    Referring to the TSW and comparing it to level grinding is a pretty silly. This game's quests and the things they have you do aren't even close to grinding.

    This game of course has the standard RPG fanfare, but if you consider every little time you are forced to fight "Grinding" then you need to find a new game or a new genre.

    This game probably has some of the most unique types of quests and stories on the market.

    Are you looking for a game that isn't an rpg maybe? An open world sandbox that doesn't involve gear, numbers, and progression? There's a few of those out there, but this isn't one of them, and its definitely not a bad thing, the game is a great storytelling rpg experience. 

    Sometimes you have to look at the whole picture as a whole, this game simply isn't for you, it doesn't make it a bad game, it just means you have to keep searching until you find one you are comfortable with. There's plenty of games I don't play, but I wouldn't consider the ones I don't bad.

     

    I'm just trying to give a suggestion, it doesn't sound like this game is for you. Perhaps they will make your dream game you suggested in the future. Sorry... your dream game just sounds incredibly boring for me.

    The level mechanic hasn't grown old, it's a staple for RPGs and the reason I enjoy them and I would hate to see it go.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    Believe it or not, there are people who enjoy collecting new gear and "leveling up". They want to see harder content, know that it's hard, and know that they've put effort into having the right stuff to clear the harder content. That's a large part of gaming in a nutshell. Effort In Equals Rewards Out. TSW's approach to character development doesn't change this.

    I just wish I had paid more attention to some crafting guides and hadn't sold all my base materials from the first zone. :-(

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Nitth
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    Originally posted by MMOExposed I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.   problem is, that they really didnt get rid of this, but simply hid them. zones are still linear pathed buy hidden levels.  Why design the game like this? Should have design the game simply to be a huge open world with everything being endgame and some form of progression for your faction. who likes content locks anymore? level mechanics has grown old. But masking them won't fix the problem. Since the game is now B2 I am interested in checking i out, but would like more words and info on this area of the game. because I really, really, really don't like Level Grinding in MMO anymore. The hype about not having levels was the main thing that attracted me to this game at first. But it's misleading hype IMO after trying out the game long time ago.
    so you want people to be able to take o the hardest things out there right off the bat, and have no real story in a game that is based on the story and intrige???

    Your still thinking in a linear power mindset.

    Theres no reason why you couldn't have mobs with different skillsets and dynamically reward players based on their builds.




    You could but it wouldn't make sense in the context of the game. It's based around stories and stories are linear. The game is based around the idea of your character going from a beginner mage/soldier to a master mage/soldier. In other words, it's a linear progression story.

    Just removing the gear requirements would not change the linear nature of the game. For that to work, you'd have to have a completely different game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • WillyMMORPGWillyMMORPG Texarkana, TXPosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I didnt ply the game since beta, so going off what I read. But, I have to give credit for FC for taking a chance and getting rid of character levels.

     

    It's hard for me to take seriously any post (in the Secret World forum) that begins with the above disclaimer.

     

    All I have to say is: why are you posting here, now, lamenting the game design that you found lacking a year ago?

     

    Just out of curiosity, what game(s) do you currently play?

     

  • red_cruiserred_cruiser Milwaukee, WIPosts: 472Member Uncommon

    It's because of the story.  That at least explains the linear zone pathing.  If that is already a given in the game, I'm not sure I'd try that hard to revolutionize the rest of the wheel.

    I don't really see Skyrim being much of a solution.  Using the system that a single player game uses to dynamically update the challenge level of an area in a MMORPG would require an obtuse amount of phasing, thus destroying the feel of it being an MMORPG.  Barring that, I'm sure players out there would find an easy way to exploit the mechanic.

    Getting more powerful to challenge strong opponents is a big part of the role-playing part of an MMORPG.  What you are really describing is more of a MMO Adventure Game.  The sense of achievement is oftentimes a baked in component, but so what?  It's an important part of an MMORPG.

    To say that TSW doesn't really have levels is a bit of a misnomer as well.  It's first called Skill Level.  Then it shifts to Attack Rating or other relevant stats.  By all accounts, WoW is a traditional MMORPG.  Does anyone in WoW say "Level 60 Mage LF Raid!"  without also including their Gear Score?  If that is ultimately your problem, it's not levels that bother you.

    In TSW, you can spend your points well, or you can spend your points poorly.  All levels would actually do would entitle people who spent their points poorly to feel like they should be able to fight and win.  "I'm level 25 and I lost to a pack of three level 22 greens!".

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I'm sure this is a minority opinion, but I think TSW is a little too open with the whole points and gear thing when they shouldn't be. If you really need QL2 and QL3 gear to run around the Savage Coast, why is it optional to not put points into the SP categories for the gear levels when it's time to move on? It's not a choice, you must put the points there and you must get the gear.

    A lot of the game being linear is obviously not a problem for the people playing, because TSW gets high points from players as being "fun", so why throw an arbitrary hook at the player?

    Meh. Maybe I've played too much Silent Hill and the like.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member

    I just started playing and am enjoying it a lot. "Leveling" is the last thing I'm thinking about, unlike in just about every other MMO I've played.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    originally you could go the zones in any order, then they added that weapon and talisman skill stuff.
  • shadow9d9shadow9d9 Boca Raton, FLPosts: 366Member
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    You are not sick of level grinding, you are sick of MMO's in general.

    Time to move on.

    Thing is, this game isn't an mmo.  It is 8 tiny and unconnected zones with a chat lobby, some instanced dungeons, and a tiny pvp arena.

     

    And to the OP, the game was gear based, since you reached whatever goals you had by the third zone generally.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    It's amazing to me how flexible games like CoX was able to handle so many of these issues.

    You could pop into a world boss fight at pretty much any level (similar to GW2, I guess) and contribute. You could sidekick/exemplar up or down levels to match your buds for group play. You could easily face content at- or under- level (and crank up the difficulty slider) if you wanted additional challenge for yourself.

    In short, a lot of the problems the op has with "levels" were already solved, clear back in 2004.

    Why didn't the rest of the mmo world adopt these solutions?

     

    We're seeing more and more games do so...WAR diddled with scaling vs boss a bit, GW2 does it rather a lot (msybe too much, no voluntary control)

    But yes, set static content (ala EQ, Vanilla WoW) is always faster-and-dirtier to design, and likely always will be. Scaling combat math is something you must plan ahead for, yas.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    If you don't want to play a game that has character progression through statistics then you need to avoid any game in any genre with the letters RPG in them.Whether it's obvious like levels or integrated into the game so it's not stabbing you in the face with large notifications it will always be in a RPG because it's a staple pillar of the genre.

    Now it is of course possible to have a MMO without character progression but it wouldn't be a MMORPG,it would be a MMO of  another type.People here interchange MMO and MMORPG way too much.

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