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Will Turbine get the class revamp right?

xalvixalvi brooklyn, NYPosts: 329Member

Most of you all know me here as the guy bashing the game. But i bash it for a reason, mostly because it is the only middle earth mmo out there and would like to play it. 

So what is the number one thing that turns people off including me about this game? It would have to be the slow and outdated combat. Back then, lets say from 07-2010 at max the combat would have been acceptable but not for 2013. Now there are some other features about this game that  could turn people off (endgame grind, pvp) but lets talk about combat.

 

The announcement of the class revamp. If turbine gets this right this mmo will be in interest to a lot of new people. They said they are sticking more to the trinity, which is awesome imo. No more of that hybrid class system which makes everything very unbalanced. Tried GW2, best combat gamplay i have played but i need that trinity. 

 

Lets hope Turbine does not fail with this one.

Comments

  • snoockysnoocky maarnPosts: 594Member Uncommon
    Let them make the combat animations right first...

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before.

    Edgar Allan Poe

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,185Member Uncommon

    Who knows if they'll get it right.  They get a lot of stuff almost right, but very few things are spot on.  Their wardrobe system was a home run in my opinion while their hobby system had the potential but rotted.

    They done several revamps now.  The minstrel is nowhere near what it was on launch.  The poor hunter has never in a good spot.  It has been mediocre or super OP, but rarely in a sweet spot.

    Funny you brought the topic up because I ended up on the LotRO forums last night in the hunter section and saw the revamp thread.  I thought it was a troll at first.  I mean that is the thread every hunter has wanted to see since hunters got their "month of" in update 8 or 9 and DangerDan nerfed the hell out of them.  There was some good stuff in that thread, but nothing that hasn't been said over and over again over the last five and a half years.

    In all I hope they don't screw with the lore-master too much.  It's one of my favorite classes of any game I've ever played.  The game is still on my hard drive.  If they did do the revamp right and made their cash shop less gaudy and in your face then I would play it again for sure.

  • xalvixalvi brooklyn, NYPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    In all I hope they don't screw with the lore-master too much.  It's one of my favorite classes of any game I've ever played.  The game is still on my hard drive.  If they did do the revamp right and made their cash shop less gaudy and in your face then I would play it again for sure.

     

    I kind of disagree when you say turbine gets many things right, but i don't think they can mess up on the revamp because of their statement that they made. They are pretty much canceling hybrid trait system and making trees with specific roles a.k.a trinity, ex; Minstrel either heal spec or dps spec. By doing this way, it makes turbine lives easier to balance classes but i wouldn't mind. 

    Pretty much my advise if you are leveling a new class is to pick a class that role you like, because they are going. I think the lm would be fine. i think they said they are removing burgs cc role and making them full on debuffers, so if it is cc you like you're set. I got a burg and i love the idea of being a full blown debuffer, didn't care much for cc. Kind of liking turbine right now, can't believe im sayin this.

     

     

  • flizzerflizzer Manchester, NHPosts: 1,550Member Uncommon
    I've been playing GW2 heavy since launch last September and only recently got back in to LOTRO (I'm a lifer).  I just picked up the latest expansion, Rohan, and received my War-steed the other day.  I had a blast running around Rohan and chasing down boars and salamanders.   I would have to agree with almost everyone else on the lackluster combat, especially after coming from GW2.  The mounted combat, however, has a fresh, new feel to it that I love.  If they truly can revamp the combat to make it more appealing then I can imagine spending lots more time in this game.  After all, I still say story/lore is probably the best in any MMO today and the community remains outstanding. I had a problem with my epic quest line in Rohan and after asking in chat no one seemed to know the answer. A random player offered to group with me and spent more than an hour trying to solve my problem and eventually did.  I have taken extended breaks from this game and always enjoy coming back.  Looking forward to Helms in the Fall and this game going forward. There is just something special about Middle Earth.  And there are hobbits!
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,185Member Uncommon

    I didn't say they get everything right.  I said they get a lot of stuff almost right.  For example, the Legendary Item system:  it was the right idea almost executed properly (especially the early iterations in testing), but in the end they fell short of implementing it properly and it took them more than 2 and a half years to iron out all the screwups.

    If they over simplify the classes that will not make people happy.  People like hybrid roles and the game launched with classes specifically for that purpose - lore-master, burglar, and captain.  Support roles are by their nature hybrid.  Gutting that will piss off a huge portion of their playerbase.  I can't see them going that route.  It would be a huge nerf to burgs, LMs, RKs, and minstrels.  Why would they do that?

    What is their goal in the revamp?  I saw the hunter forum thread, but the hunter is an awkward class at the moment, not all classes face this problem.

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member

    @OP

    I'm totally with you on the combat system - it really needs a revamp. Did they actually say one is incoming or are you just hoping for one?

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    If they over simplify the classes that will not make people happy. 

    +1.

    Not to mention in the last few years every time they fiddled with the classes, it turned out badly... (mini, warden in my case)

    I admit maybe I'm too old-fashioned, but I like versatile classes with lots of skills and options, there's no need for simplification (-> dumbing down). Imo ofc.

     

    Edit: (I was slow with the typing :) )  Destai, it's not the combat system, they plan to revamp the classes (dropping out lots of skills and rewrite the remaining under the flag "simplification", and re-editing the trait lines)

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,185Member Uncommon

    I've searched the dev post forum and only see revamp threads for the following classes: hunter, burglar, and captain.  Has anyone seen a more general thread or one that discusses revamps for other classes?

    I could see those classes getting some love especially the captain and hunter.

  • IssieaIssiea SydneyPosts: 75Member

    Good to know this as I'd like to give this game another go.  I didn't make it past level 25 or so for some reason the combat/classes didn't appeal to me as much even though I'm quite a fan of the lore/story.

     

    Here's hoping it will change for the better I would like to play something when I go on vacation in a couple of weeks.  By the way, when are these changes being implemented?

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  • WalterWhiteWalterWhite CardiffPosts: 394Member Uncommon

    An update to the combat animations is really needed but I hope they don't meddle too much with the classes as they have some of the best classes in any MMO.

    I get a little nervous when an MMO get's a revamp as the last time an MMO I really enjoyed was SWG and we all know how that revamp went.

    image

  • xalvixalvi brooklyn, NYPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by BreakingBad

    I hope they don't meddle too much with the classes as they have some of the best classes in any MMO.

     

    My god bud, that is really debatable. Part of the reason they have such good class/roles is because they are using an IP, one of the best IP and it is LOTR. But saying they have one of the best classes in any mmo is really subjective.

     

    Agreed on the fact they need to work on combat animations though, tbh hope they fix that before class revamp. But then again i think they will make animations with the revamp it only makes sense. 

     

    To other posters who wanted more info about this here are the link:

     http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?509264-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-Online%99-Helm%92s-Deep%99

    Detailed thread on the forums, on what they are planing with classes (its a post bashing turbine about the class revamp, i disagree with it though i like keeping role specific classes):

     http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?506048-Talent-trees-class-roles-and-player-choice

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,185Member Uncommon

    Thanks xalvi.  Those links are very informative.

    I can't say that my opinion really matters because I rarely login and play anymore.  But, I've been there since before the beginning and I can relate to Trilwych's concern.

    I can't fathom why Turbine wants to rock the boat.  They have a dedicated core following that is happy enough with their class and combat mechanics, game world, and payment model.  I think it's a huge risk.  I have a bunch of suspicions but they aren't anything more than conjecture.  It just doesn't make sense to me at this point in the game's lifecycle that they believe they can breathe new life into the game through a class revamp.  The Turbine Engine is worn out.  If they really wanted to do something clever they would create a new engine that their old content could be updated to.

    Anyway, the stated goal of making each branch of their tree be unique and purposeful is a good one.  I agree with Trilwych (I usually do) that going the EQ2/WoW talent tree approach will be a mistake.  Going the Rift style would be a better approach.

    Overall I think it's a mistake to rock the boat too hard.  Seeing the neglected classes get overhauled is exciting.  Seeing the entire combat and class system revamped again (this will be at least combat 4.0 by now) is just awkward and uncomfortable.  At least that's my initial reaction.  Like I said above, they do a lot of stuff almost right.  I don't really have any confidence that it will be any different this time around.

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    I remember when they went messing around with class balance beck with Mines of Moria, they screwed stuff up so bad for Mini's and for Captains a lot of folks who had those classes quit playing all together.   A lot of folks might not remember that.  I remember when we hit 65 and they started other class balance actions that messed with Lore Masters somewhat, making some skills always on and limiting the choices you had in the trees back in Mirkwood.   It was at that point I gave up playing and watched 2 lifetime subs just sit there and gather 500 points a month. 

    Now I read all this, and you just have to shake your head and wonder what has happened. What a joke this is, somebody has lost their way, but I said that a long time ago. 

    What it sounds like to me is making the game simple, no hard choice just clear cut paths, playing to the lowest common denominator the free to play player who does not have time to learn his class. 

     

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member
    Originally posted by BreakingBad

    An update to the combat animations is really needed but I hope they don't meddle too much with the classes as they have some of the best classes in any MMO.

    I get a little nervous when an MMO get's a revamp as the last time an MMO I really enjoyed was SWG and we all know how that revamp went.

    Yeah some of the classes were really fun when I played and could only benefit from making them smoother. The Runekeeper and Loremaster both had a some great mechanics. The attunement system felt so energetic, and I loved the control abilities of the Loremaster. Unfortunately, the pet was hardly responsive and combat skills would activate seconds later. 

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,185Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by BreakingBad

    An update to the combat animations is really needed but I hope they don't meddle too much with the classes as they have some of the best classes in any MMO.

    I get a little nervous when an MMO get's a revamp as the last time an MMO I really enjoyed was SWG and we all know how that revamp went.

    Yeah some of the classes were really fun when I played and could only benefit from making them smoother. The Runekeeper and Loremaster both had a some great mechanics. The attunement system felt so energetic, and I loved the control abilities of the Loremaster. Unfortunately, the pet was hardly responsive and combat skills would activate seconds later. 

    I don't think that was related to the LM though, but Turbine's aging engine.  That's why a total class revamp without addressing their dinosaur of an engine sort of baffles me.

    The warden is another really interesting class by the way.  For those unaware there is a Graalx3 working on the Neverwinter team.

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by snoocky
    Let them make the combat animations right first...

    Man, tell me about it.  I cringe when I look at most of their animations.  This goes for combat and standard walk/run cycles.  Nothing has a sense of weight in that game as far as animations go.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • syntax42syntax42 Columbus, OHPosts: 1,305Member Uncommon

    My memory of past Turbine "revamps" is of minor balance changes that should have happened long ago.  I seem to remember them revamping certain classes before, but no powers were changed in function, just slight modifications to their values.

     

    In any MMO, if you make too drastic of changes too fast, some players will feel alienated by the changes to "their class" and may quit playing.  Whichever direction they take, Turbine is risking losing players.

  • Karnage69Karnage69 Phoenix, AZPosts: 252Member Uncommon
    Wow. I'm excited by this news. I couldn't ever "get into" the game because of my need for a trinity style game. I need that healer+tank combo. It's almost the entire reason I don't play GW2 or Lotro anymore.
  • ThenextbigthingThenextbigthing NuneatonPosts: 104Member
    The days of a true trinity in mmos is long gone. These days most players are solo and the classes in all games give options across healer/tank/dps. Most of the classes in lotro can self heal and all are soloable. There is no need for the trinity any more. You can define some as being better than others Guardians are still the best tanks, although Wardens are good, Minstrels are still the best healers, although Runekeepers can do as well, Champions are DPS, but most classes pack a punch. The only person you really need in dungeons is a dedicated healer, most classes can switch to other roles. We will never see the true trinity again, like there used to be in EQ, because finding groups in mmos outside of dungeons in a pain in the arse.
  • VincerKadenVincerKaden Edison, NJPosts: 457Member

    I haven't read anything yet about a class revamp by Turbine yet, so I'll need to get more information before I fully form an opinion.

     

    My initial reaction to hearing LOTRO moving towards a "trinity" approach is... "Ugh".

     

    I like the current system. I don't feel locked in and am able to do what's required for the current situation rather then be a specialist looking to find an opportunity tailored toward my specific build that will - for all intents and purposes - be  identical to any other character of the same class.

     

    For now my Captain is mostly a tank, but has legendary items that increase my damage, and armor that is more for healing. Used together, I am able to be a useful support player, ready for any situation while being viable when solo (a good portion of my gaming).

     

    Were Turbine to say "Now Captains are healers", I'd be driven towards only gear and abilities that make me a better healer. In time, all healer Captains would practically be identical in the stats and gear they've selected.

     

    I'm not against the "trinity", per se. I like playing DCU where I am a Controller; taking great pride in being the best I can be when grouping up with instances.

     

    But I really cut my teeth in MMOs with a game that did not initially have any roles (SWG). I was able to organically find a playstyle that I enjoyed by building a template in that skill-based system. So to me, a "trinity" system feels like a dumbed down game in many ways; an easy button for players that allows them to not have to think very far outside the box to succeed. The slew of online guides for "How to Tank" or "Healing 101" is what I point to. These guides are not often suggestions as much as they seem to be step-by-step instructions.

     

    I really hope Turbine does not go this route.

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  • xalvixalvi brooklyn, NYPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by Vayman

    I haven't read anything yet about a class revamp by Turbine yet, so I'll need to get more information before I fully form an opinion.

     

    My initial reaction to hearing LOTRO moving towards a "trinity" approach is... "Ugh".

     

    I like the current system. I don't feel locked in and am able to do what's required for the current situation rather then be a specialist looking to find an opportunity tailored toward my specific build that will - for all intents and purposes - be  identical to any other character of the same class.

     

    For now my Captain is mostly a tank, but has legendary items that increase my damage, and armor that is more for healing. Used together, I am able to be a useful support player, ready for any situation while being viable when solo (a good portion of my gaming).

     

    Were Turbine to say "Now Captains are healers", I'd be driven towards only gear and abilities that make me a better healer. In time, all healer Captains would practically be identical in the stats and gear they've selected.

     

    I'm not against the "trinity", per se. I like playing DCU where I am a Controller; taking great pride in being the best I can be when grouping up with instances.

     

    But I really cut my teeth in MMOs with a game that did not initially have any roles (SWG). I was able to organically find a playstyle that I enjoyed by building a template in that skill-based system. So to me, a "trinity" system feels like a dumbed down game in many ways; an easy button for players that allows them to not have to think very far outside the box to succeed. The slew of online guides for "How to Tank" or "Healing 101" is what I point to. These guides are not often suggestions as much as they seem to be step-by-step instructions.

     

    I really hope Turbine does not go this route.

     

    Lol, they will. I even gave you guys a linked to the main gameplay devs stating they will head there. They aren't going to say for example captains are going to be healers only. 

    Here is what is confirmed, each class will get tree sets. Now unlike the current system we have now, with the revamp you will only choose one tree set (i think there will be like two or three). So if one tree is dps then you are dps, not a healer or tank. If the other tree you choose is healer then you will only be healer.

    My speculation regarding trees:

    champion - dps, tanking, aoe tree

    Guardian - dps, tanking 

    minstrel - dps, healing

    rk - dps, healing

    captains - dps, healing, buff

    lm - dps, CC tree, support

    warden - idk

    burglar - idk

     

     

    The devs said you can't do everything at once, so pick wisely when specing. And you can always respec so you aren't doomed. This is a bad approach but i know turbine are retards and i support their decision because they can't get class/balance right. Might as well go the easy way and do the trinity. 

  • AstralglideAstralglide Simi Valley, CAPosts: 686Member
    I guess I'm one of the few people that like the holy trinity (although I also like a dedicated "Buffer/debuffer" class too) and will probably check out the game again once it goes live. (I played the original game right after release and leveled a minstrel up to 50 as a fucking healer only to find out that my top level ability made everybody dance, and not in the useful "Captain EO" way)

    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 754Member Uncommon

    Thanks guys for the heads up on all this. I appreciate the OP for starting the thread and for the links provided by other Posters. I stopped even reading the LotRO Forums when I got into an argument on PMs with one of the Staff just before the F2P conversion. Hardly ever read them at all now. I do still play LotRO, and more so recently again.

    I too think it's very risky to rock this boat this far into the journey. Here is some of my opinions on all this news.

    Some of you have mentioned that Turbine should replace the game engine. I agree it's needed, however, replacing the aging game engine will cost millions of dollars potentially. WB won't shell out that kind of money ever because WB isn't a MMO Publisher.... not a true one anyways.... they bought Trubine and LotRO.... they are a Movie Production and Distribution empire. WB has no loyalty whatsoever to the MMO Genre. LotRO was bought simply so WB could hold all the cards with Tolkien's "art work" on the back. WB bought Turbine for control. I will say for the record that I think WB has made some very good decisions in some aspects since they bought Turbine, so I have been impressed more than I thought I would be.

    What I think this change to the Trait system is all about is this: What WB Turbine is doing now is streamlining LotRO for profits so they can justify to themselves the money it is going to take to get LotRO to "Mordor". Devs spending manhours on balancing a detailed trait system like LotRO's costs money. I never believed WB had any real clue what they were getting into when they bought a MMO as far as how much it would really cost them. Now they know more, hence the decision to make these changes. As for whether WB realizes the impact of these changes is doubtful... I highly doubt any of the Suits that made this decision actually play LotRO (or any MMO), so I doubt they will ever appreciate the Trait system that LotRO has now, so they won't miss it when it's gone. These changes aren't a game play decision, it's a business decision, as unfortunate as that will be.

    Besides... now in 2013 (and before this to be honest) the wants and needs of the customer really doesn't matter to Businesses.... because let's face it.... it is far too easy now to drop your existing customer base in favor of a bigger one that will help you make more profits. This is what is driving the decisions at WB Turbine and it's clear to see. WB knows they will lose some of the existing customers, they know this and accept it. WB is confident that if they make LotRO more like what WoW was, they will get more new customers to offset the losses and make a tidy profit.

    Mind you I do NOT like all of this... I actually abhor it, the whole way MMOs are managed and all. Managing a MMO should be about creating and operating a great MMO that Players love and tell their friends, their family, even their Granmothers about, and get them to play. This was how WoW became what it became. Instead managing MMOs now is all profit first before the People that are the customers. I know this is what is going on in the genre and I know it won't change just because I (We) don't like it. The last time I really complained to a MMO Staff member directly about how a MMO was managed I was told I was "Tilting at Windmills" by Patience. Our complaints will fall on Ears closed on purpose.

    I will wait and see what's left after the dust settles, until then I will play LotRO and enjoy it.

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