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Free to Play has never and does not exist

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  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!

    No because they choose too. The company didn't say "Hey, you people can afford it. You'll have to pay but these guys over here don't because of their income." That's why your statement fails. People that pay presumably get an advantage for said payments so why the argument and bitterness?

    Don't kid yourself, F2P is paid for by others who are paying and/or using the gift shop.

     

     

  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by Hatefull
    Originally posted by randomonetimeposter

    This is what companies do. They have, let's say, a free period. Where a player can play their game without hassle. After this grace period they start to put in certain measures to Force said player to either buy stuff from their store or sub for the game. This is from hands on experience and it goes for any game company.

     

    Saying a game company who sells their game as F2P, has only making money in their curriculum, is quite accurate.

     

    A writer on MMORPG wrote an article about F2P which I read. Decent enough I guess. But since I've always believed that game companies are no worse than the maffia when it comes to raking in cash from their customers I will continue to A. Buy games and B. Sub for games. No inbetween prostitution or slavery.

     

    What they are doing is calling US, yes gamers, stupid.

    Wrong - I have a max level toon in TSW and have not spent a dime since it went F2P.

    Well you did buy the box so it's more B2P than F2P but I agree that TSW is the best of the bunch when it comes to F2P/B2P MMO's.  If only the rest of the industry looked to what TSW is doing.  I mean.

    No real money to in game currency conversion

    Inventory you can mange with in game funds instead of locked to micro transactions (there is nothing micro about some games inventory costs)

    No exclusive items locked in to slot machine boxes with undisclosed odds.

    If TSW was typical of the F2P/B2P world I really doubt there would be many people complaining about it but it's not is it? Far far from it.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!

    The magic of freedom. Works pretty well so far, don't you think.

    Do not confuse "entitlement" with "freedom".

  • BossalinieBossalinie Member UncommonPosts: 724
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!

    The magic of freedom. Works pretty well so far, don't you think.

    Do not confuse "entitlement" with "freedom".

    Do not confuse a video game with something so serious.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!

    The magic of freedom. Works pretty well so far, don't you think.

    Do not confuse "entitlement" with "freedom".

    Do not confuse a video game with something so serious.

    Do don't confuse adding something to the thread with worthless babble.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!

    No because they choose too. The company didn't say "Hey, you people can afford it. You'll have to pay but these guys over here don't because of their income." That's why your statement fails. People that pay presumably get an advantage for said payments so why the argument and bitterness?

    Don't kid yourself, F2P is paid for by others who are paying and/or using the gift shop.

     

     

    So? it is still free for me.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!

    The magic of freedom. Works pretty well so far, don't you think.

    Do not confuse "entitlement" with "freedom".

    Freedom of not paying .. i don't see how that can be confused.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,824
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Scot

    I know what you F2P guys are going to say, why sweat it, you can play for free. True, but you are playing MMOs which will get worse as time goes on. How many years before there are not any more MMO's to play that once were quality P2P MMO's? Serious funding in the MMO genre is drying up, we had three or four AAA releases last year, I don't see that happening this year or the next. 

    Well, no Scott, that's not what I would say (not an "F2P guy", either, before you go there).

    I would actually ask if you honestly believe in any of these slippery slopes.

    You're basically riffing on "There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch", which a lot of people can (generally) agree with.

    But those Portents of Doooom...come on. Over the top.

    I know you are not one of those mad on F2P mate, but we have seen the size and scope of MMO's going down over the years, I just can't see how less funding is going to help matters. Even if you think the development of MMO's has been fine up till now, less funding is not good news. If MMO's all started to go B2P I could still see how quality, at least in terms of production values would remain stable, or get better. Or if investors and companies were more prepared to put larger investment in MMO's that were not P2P, again I would not see a slippery slope. I don't have a fast track to what's going on in the industry. I base this on the fact less P2P MMO's are coming out and I see no AAA MMO's in the pipeline.

    Maybe by the end of the year we will get a couple that deserve AAA status, it could be that the success of GW2 will secure funding/extra funding for great titles coming out in the next couple of years. I can only think of a couple of titles that even look like contenders for big funding in the near future. That's why I am so concerned.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by kakasaki Originally posted by MMOGamer71 It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!
    No because they choose too. The company didn't say "Hey, you people can afford it. You'll have to pay but these guys over here don't because of their income." That's why your statement fails. People that pay presumably get an advantage for said payments so why the argument and bitterness?
    Don't kid yourself, F2P is paid for by others who are paying and/or using the gift shop.

     

     




    Is there anyone here who doesn't know this? I mean, seriously. People keep bringing this up like it's some sort of revelation or like it makes F2P games evil. Of course it's paid for by the people who buy things. That's how the world works.

    Freedom is easily demonstrated with the F2P payment model because it's easy to demonstrate with video games in general. People choose what they want to pay for and what they don't want to pay for.

    A sense of entitlement on the other hand is harder to demonstrate. Do people playing only the free portion of F2P games demonstrate a sense of entitlement? Do they feel that they deserve to play the free portion of the games? How would you even know? It would be easier to see if they feel that they deserve the entire game for free, but how many people actually expect this? In any event, it's not people like nariusseldon who simply want to play the free portions of the games.

    Your statement about a sense of entitlement doesn't really make sense in the context of F2P payment models.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by MMOGamer71

    Originally posted by kakasaki

    Originally posted by MMOGamer71 It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!
    No because they choose too. The company didn't say "Hey, you people can afford it. You'll have to pay but these guys over here don't because of their income." That's why your statement fails. People that pay presumably get an advantage for said payments so why the argument and bitterness?
    Don't kid yourself, F2P is paid for by others who are paying and/or using the gift shop.

     

     

     



    Is there anyone here who doesn't know this? I mean, seriously. People keep bringing this up like it's some sort of revelation or like it makes F2P games evil. Of course it's paid for by the people who buy things. That's how the world works.

    Freedom is easily demonstrated with the F2P payment model because it's easy to demonstrate with video games in general. People choose what they want to pay for and what they don't want to pay for.

    A sense of entitlement on the other hand is harder to demonstrate. Do people playing only the free portion of F2P games demonstrate a sense of entitlement? Do they feel that they deserve to play the free portion of the games? How would you even know? It would be easier to see if they feel that they deserve the entire game for free, but how many people actually expect this? In any event, it's not people like nariusseldon who simply want to play the free portions of the games.

    Your statement about a sense of entitlement doesn't really make sense in the context of F2P payment models.

     

    Playing (receiving goods and/or services) a game without spending anything (entitled to play) doesn't make sense?

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO Member UncommonPosts: 1,326
    There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay, one way or the other. How they go about getting their money is up to the company.

    imageimage
  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550

    O.P. has a good point that has been rehashed many times here. My view is:

    1. Download F2P game
    2. Play it for two weeks.
    3. Hit the $ wall
    4. Player feels like the past two weeks was a big waste of time unless they spend $ to continue.

    This is F2P. It isn't about creating compelling gameplay and offering a free trial.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • duuude007duuude007 Member Posts: 112
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by MMOGamer71

    Originally posted by kakasaki

    Originally posted by MMOGamer71 It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!
    No because they choose too. The company didn't say "Hey, you people can afford it. You'll have to pay but these guys over here don't because of their income." That's why your statement fails. People that pay presumably get an advantage for said payments so why the argument and bitterness?
    Don't kid yourself, F2P is paid for by others who are paying and/or using the gift shop.

     

     

     



    Is there anyone here who doesn't know this? I mean, seriously. People keep bringing this up like it's some sort of revelation or like it makes F2P games evil. Of course it's paid for by the people who buy things. That's how the world works.

    Freedom is easily demonstrated with the F2P payment model because it's easy to demonstrate with video games in general. People choose what they want to pay for and what they don't want to pay for.

    A sense of entitlement on the other hand is harder to demonstrate. Do people playing only the free portion of F2P games demonstrate a sense of entitlement? Do they feel that they deserve to play the free portion of the games? How would you even know? It would be easier to see if they feel that they deserve the entire game for free, but how many people actually expect this? In any event, it's not people like nariusseldon who simply want to play the free portions of the games.

    Your statement about a sense of entitlement doesn't really make sense in the context of F2P payment models.

     

    Playing (receiving goods and/or services) a game without spending anything (entitled to play) doesn't make sense?

    Sounds like the F2P term is becoming FvP

    Freeloaders versus payers

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Maybe by the end of the year we will get a couple that deserve AAA status, it could be that the success of GW2 will secure funding/extra funding for great titles coming out in the next couple of years. I can only think of a couple of titles that even look like contenders for big funding in the near future. That's why I am so concerned.

    Why are you concerned at all? I see enough MMO-like development ... WoP, WoWS, D3 expansion, Destiny, Lineage Eternal .... that it is not likely that i will have nothing to play. Plus, all the existing games like STO are adding content.

    And i thought you are in the camp of staying-true-to-one-game. If so, why do you care if there will be lots of development. You just need one.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by JoeyMMO
    There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay, one way or the other. How they go about getting their money is up to the company.

    That is such a cliche.

    There is such thing as a free game. Yes, someone has to pay. But if that someone is not me, it is free to me.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Arclan

    O.P. has a good point that has been rehashed many times here. My view is:

    1. Download F2P game
    2. Play it for two weeks.
    3. Hit the $ wall
    4. Player feels like the past two weeks was a big waste of time unless they spend $ to continue.

    This is F2P. It isn't about creating compelling gameplay and offering a free trial.

    I have play many F2P games for more than 2 weeks before hitting a pay wall.

    And waste of time? The whole point of a game is to entertain. If it is fun, it is not a waste of time. If it is not, i won't play it. So either case, it is never a waste of time.

    And when i hit a pay wall, go to the next game. There is no lack of games.

    It is about having fun until you move on. Sounds like a great entertainment strategy to me.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by MMOGamer71 Originally posted by kakasaki Originally posted by MMOGamer71 It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!
    No because they choose too. The company didn't say "Hey, you people can afford it. You'll have to pay but these guys over here don't because of their income." That's why your statement fails. People that pay presumably get an advantage for said payments so why the argument and bitterness?
    Don't kid yourself, F2P is paid for by others who are paying and/or using the gift shop.      
    Is there anyone here who doesn't know this? I mean, seriously. People keep bringing this up like it's some sort of revelation or like it makes F2P games evil. Of course it's paid for by the people who buy things. That's how the world works. Freedom is easily demonstrated with the F2P payment model because it's easy to demonstrate with video games in general. People choose what they want to pay for and what they don't want to pay for. A sense of entitlement on the other hand is harder to demonstrate. Do people playing only the free portion of F2P games demonstrate a sense of entitlement? Do they feel that they deserve to play the free portion of the games? How would you even know? It would be easier to see if they feel that they deserve the entire game for free, but how many people actually expect this? In any event, it's not people like nariusseldon who simply want to play the free portions of the games. Your statement about a sense of entitlement doesn't really make sense in the context of F2P payment models.  
    Playing (receiving goods and/or services) a game without spending anything (entitled to play) doesn't make sense?


    A "sense of entitlement" is based on what people think they deserve. Do the people playing the free portion of F2P games think they deserve to play those portions of the games for free? Have you canvased those players and gotten a consensus on what they think about it? Of course not.

    You can't even say that you know they think they deserve to have the pay portions of the game for free. The only thing you know is that they are consuming some free content that the developers chose to give away.

    It's freedom of choice. The developers chose to give away a portion of their games' content, some players chose to consume the free content and some players chose to pay for the non-free content.

    At no point have you shown that there is any sense of entitlement amongst any of the players. There is only the idea that the content is available, so they will consume it.

    Is there any particular reason why, since the content is there, and it's free, that players shouldn't consume it? Especially if they are enjoying it?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by duuude007
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by MMOGamer71

    Originally posted by kakasaki

    Originally posted by MMOGamer71 It's the society of entitlement, where your gaming is paid for by others !!
    No because they choose too. The company didn't say "Hey, you people can afford it. You'll have to pay but these guys over here don't because of their income." That's why your statement fails. People that pay presumably get an advantage for said payments so why the argument and bitterness?
    Don't kid yourself, F2P is paid for by others who are paying and/or using the gift shop.

     

     

     



    Is there anyone here who doesn't know this? I mean, seriously. People keep bringing this up like it's some sort of revelation or like it makes F2P games evil. Of course it's paid for by the people who buy things. That's how the world works.

    Freedom is easily demonstrated with the F2P payment model because it's easy to demonstrate with video games in general. People choose what they want to pay for and what they don't want to pay for.

    A sense of entitlement on the other hand is harder to demonstrate. Do people playing only the free portion of F2P games demonstrate a sense of entitlement? Do they feel that they deserve to play the free portion of the games? How would you even know? It would be easier to see if they feel that they deserve the entire game for free, but how many people actually expect this? In any event, it's not people like nariusseldon who simply want to play the free portions of the games.

    Your statement about a sense of entitlement doesn't really make sense in the context of F2P payment models.

     

    Playing (receiving goods and/or services) a game without spending anything (entitled to play) doesn't make sense?

    Sounds like the F2P term is becoming FvP

    Freeloaders versus payers

    20 years ago we called it shareware and/or demo's.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775


    It's freedom of choice. The developers chose to give away a portion of their games' content, some players chose to consume the free content and some players chose to pay for the non-free content.


    Is there any particular reason why, since the content is there, and it's free, that players shouldn't consume it? Especially if they are enjoying it?

     

    Exactly. In fact, devs are practically begging us to play for free, to be content for the pay customers. I think i will help them out .. only if the free part of the game is fun, of course.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    It's freedom of choice. The developers chose to give away a portion of their games' content, some players chose to consume the free content and some players chose to pay for the non-free content.


    Is there any particular reason why, since the content is there, and it's free, that players shouldn't consume it? Especially if they are enjoying it?

     

    Exactly. In fact, devs are practically begging us to play for free, to be content for the pay customers. I think i will help them out .. only if the free part of the game is fun, of course.

    Because people are paying $160 for the F2P crowd to play for "free", call it what you want it's kicking the can to the paying customer.

    Example:

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/237680/

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Arclan
    O.P. has a good point that has been rehashed many times here. My view is: 1. Download F2P game
    2. Play it for two weeks.
    3. Hit the $ wall
    4. Player feels like the past two weeks was a big waste of time unless they spend $ to continue.This is F2P. It isn't about creating compelling gameplay and offering a free trial.


    It seems a little ironic to bring up a pay wall after two weeks of game play as a bad thing, when the competing alternative is a pay wall after zero weeks of game play.

    This also makes the assumption that all F2P cash shops are the same. They are not. Some may not even have pay walls.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by JoeyMMO
    There is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay, one way or the other. How they go about getting their money is up to the company.

    That is such a cliche.

    There is such thing as a free game. Yes, someone has to pay. But if that someone is not me, it is free to me.

    That was exactly his point...

    As these forums so love to argue semantics, no nothing is ever technically free. Someone, or something, is always paying for everything in one way or another. This shouldn't be some big epiphany to anyone with half a brain either. It's fairly common sense. (to the point where it has become cliche)

    That said, there are free to play games. Lots of them. Does that mean they don't cost money to maintain? LOL. In what dream world?

    I seriously don't get all the hate for f2p games sometimes. I've enjoyed PoE, PS2, Neverwinter, etc. quite a bit so far, without having to spend a dime on any of them. I cant say that about any subscription game, and I've played some subscription games for far less than those 3 games for issues having nothing to do w/ money.

    The degree to which a business model dictates content depends entirely on the company designing the game. There have been both generous & severely restrictive versions of both sub & f2p models. They're never 100% free, and anything that appears to be so will never stay that way for long. However, u also have games like Dota2 / LoL which are free unless you want some fancy skins.

    Imho this focus on 'which business model makes the better game' is laughable. We shouldn't be the ones arguing about how we through our money away. We should be supporting better games, and letting the companies figure out how we're willing to pay for them.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by nariusseldon It's freedom of choice. The developers chose to give away a portion of their games' content, some players chose to consume the free content and some players chose to pay for the non-free content. Is there any particular reason why, since the content is there, and it's free, that players shouldn't consume it? Especially if they are enjoying it?  
    Exactly. In fact, devs are practically begging us to play for free, to be content for the pay customers. I think i will help them out .. only if the free part of the game is fun, of course.
    Because people are paying $160 for the F2P crowd to play for "free", call it what you want it's kicking the can to the paying customer.

    Example:

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/237680/




    If it's such a kick to the can of the paying customer, then they have the same choice that everyone else has, and that is to not pay and to not play. The cost of whatever they are buying is not relevant. It's their money, they can choose to spend it or not.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    It's freedom of choice. The developers chose to give away a portion of their games' content, some players chose to consume the free content and some players chose to pay for the non-free content.


    Is there any particular reason why, since the content is there, and it's free, that players shouldn't consume it? Especially if they are enjoying it?

     

    Exactly. In fact, devs are practically begging us to play for free, to be content for the pay customers. I think i will help them out .. only if the free part of the game is fun, of course.

    Because people are paying $160 for the F2P crowd to play for "free", call it what you want it's kicking the can to the paying customer.

    Example:

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/237680/

    That is not my problem. I play for free. Oh, and the whale who paid $160 has the same option of not paying as me. If he wants to pay $160 .. it is his choice.

     

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,988

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by MMOGamer71

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    It's freedom of choice. The developers chose to give away a portion of their games' content, some players chose to consume the free content and some players chose to pay for the non-free content. Is there any particular reason why, since the content is there, and it's free, that players shouldn't consume it? Especially if they are enjoying it?  
    Exactly. In fact, devs are practically begging us to play for free, to be content for the pay customers. I think i will help them out .. only if the free part of the game is fun, of course.
    Because people are paying $160 for the F2P crowd to play for "free", call it what you want it's kicking the can to the paying customer.

     

    Example:

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/237680/



    If it's such a kick to the can of the paying customer, then they have the same choice that everyone else has, and that is to not pay and to not play. The cost of whatever they are buying is not relevant. It's their money, they can choose to spend it or not.

     

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    It's freedom of choice. The developers chose to give away a portion of their games' content, some players chose to consume the free content and some players chose to pay for the non-free content.


    Is there any particular reason why, since the content is there, and it's free, that players shouldn't consume it? Especially if they are enjoying it?

     

    Exactly. In fact, devs are practically begging us to play for free, to be content for the pay customers. I think i will help them out .. only if the free part of the game is fun, of course.

    Because people are paying $160 for the F2P crowd to play for "free", call it what you want it's kicking the can to the paying customer.

    Example:

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/237680/

    That is not my problem. I play for free. Oh, and the whale who paid $160 has the same option of not paying as me. If he wants to pay $160 .. it is his choice.

     

    Would you really be playing for free?  Or would the game be shutdown forcing you to buy another game to play it?  All roads point to the paying customer and not the freeloader.

    See SOE and Bullet Run.

    http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/02/05/bullet-run-cancelled-soes-free-to-play-shooter-shuts-down-in-march/

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