I see F2P as an experience and a way of getting to know a game. If you enjoy the game, then you contribute more time and maybe spend a little money to boost your status.
F2P doesn't = evil at all, their business model is to earn money, they have bills to pay etc, and the game wouldn't last too long if it wasn't for player spending.
Kids these days are such arseholes, you complain about getting to play games for free, try going back to the 90's and early 2000 when free premium titles were none existant.
free to play is fine imo. i've never understood why some people make it out to be so wrong. the game(s) is/are actually free to play. you have the option to pay for various things. be it weapons, armor, bag space, etc. i have played/tried many free to play titles and not spent any money on them. they were "free to play". so you are wrong op. free to play does and will forever exsist.
Originally posted by muffins89 free to play is fine imo. i've never understood why some people make it out to be so wrong. the game(s) is/are actually free to play. you have the option to pay for various things. be it weapons, armor, bag space, etc. i have played/tried many free to play titles and not spent any money on them. they were "free to play". so you are wrong op. free to play does and will forever exsist.
It is often demonized for the very examples you listed.
Weapons, armor, bag space- If two players' similar progression rates diverge because one has the advantage of extra money to spend on these upgrades, suddenly the concept becomes P2W.
This is a payment option which stems from F2P, and can have serious consequences, in spite of its supplemental dividends.
That said, if F2P can avoid the monetary allure of said option, they can still remain perfectly viable- depending on the game's design, of course.
I think you all pretty much Missed the OP's point here in this thread, and started arguing amongst one another with your own beliefs what you think is right and what you think is wrong. Because you all seem to think your each the ObI-Won of Gaming and you know everything about everything. You really should try taking the time to read a post, and sitting a bit too wait until your brain can comprehend all the words. He isn't saying Free 2 Play is bad like one poster assumed, nor is he saying "we" are stupid one another poster seemed to assume. What he basically is saying here is the "Free to play" Label isn't free to play. You can play the game free yes but in order to get all it's features you have to pay for it technically speaking that isn't free to play. Thats all he is saying.
Originally posted by muffins89 free to play is fine imo. i've never understood why some people make it out to be so wrong. the game(s) is/are actually free to play. you have the option to pay for various things. be it weapons, armor, bag space, etc. i have played/tried many free to play titles and not spent any money on them. they were "free to play". so you are wrong op. free to play does and will forever exsist.
It is often demonized for the very examples you listed.
Weapons, armor, bag space- If two players' similar progression rates diverge because one has the advantage of extra money to spend on these upgrades, suddenly the concept becomes P2W.
This is a payment option which stems from F2P, and can have serious consequences, in spite of its supplemental dividends.
That said, if F2P can avoid the monetary allure of said option, they can still remain perfectly viable- depending on the game's design, of course.
except free to play games are already viable. even if people label them "pay to win". f2p mmo's out number p2p now maybe 15 to 1. if a game allows the players to acquire all weapons, gear, bag-space, etc. in game, how does selling those things make it pay to win? people (at least a lot of them) label those games "pay to win" because they feel jealous (this part is all my opionion of course). if they spend the time in the game and acquire the top items why should they care it "Johnny" spent his allowance on the top items? how does one players progression affeect another player's slower progression? they both have the same opportunity to complete all the content. one's path may be quicker than the others, but you get what you pay for. you want to "beat a game in a few days? you might have to spend a little cash to support the game you are playing.
I think you all pretty much Missed the OP's point here in this thread, and started arguing amongst one another with your own beliefs what you think is right and what you think is wrong. Because you all seem to think your each the ObI-Won of Gaming and you know everything about everything. You really should try taking the time to read a post, and sitting a bit too wait until your brain can comprehend all the words. He isn't saying Free 2 Play is bad like one poster assumed, nor is he saying "we" are stupid one another poster seemed to assume. What he basically is saying here is the "Free to play" Label isn't free to play. You can play the game free yes but in order to get all it's features you have to pay for it technically speaking that isn't free to play. Thats all he is saying.
can you play the game for free? or do you want bells and whistles?
The obvious example is path of exile. It is 100% free to play with absolutely nothing but vanity items in the item store! I agree you are right most of the time, however there are examples out there of 100% free to play games. Plus there are some games that are free without a store which are supported by adds apparently (although I have never come across one).
Originally posted by ereyethirn The obvious example is path of exile. It is 100% free to play with absolutely nothing but vanity items in the item store! I agree you are right most of the time, however there are examples out there of 100% free to play games. Plus there are some games that are free without a store which are supported by adds apparently (although I have never come across one).
This only true depending on opinion though.
I remember a lot of people being of the opinion that Stash tabs where pay to win.
I disagree because you can make new accounts and get as many tabs as you want, the dev's even said this is perfectly fine, tabs are just a convenience, but that doesn't change the fact that others still dislike this business model, they don't think It's 100% free to play.
The only true Free2play that i can think of is League of Legends ( Although i haven't played it ) I was under the impression they really sold nothing but character skins, which seems nice ( Sorry if I'm wrong ) Of course LoL isn't really a MMORPG like most other F2P's
Originally posted by ereyethirn The obvious example is path of exile. It is 100% free to play with absolutely nothing but vanity items in the item store! I agree you are right most of the time, however there are examples out there of 100% free to play games. Plus there are some games that are free without a store which are supported by adds apparently (although I have never come across one).
This only true depending on opinion though.
I remember a lot of people being of the opinion that Stash tabs where pay to win.
I disagree because you can make new accounts and get as many tabs as you want, the dev's even said this is perfectly fine, tabs are just a convenience, but that doesn't change the fact that others still dislike this business model, they don't think It's 100% free to play.
The only true Free2play that i can think of is League of Legends ( Although i haven't played it ) I was under the impression they really sold nothing but character skins, which seems nice ( Sorry if I'm wrong ) Of course LoL isn't really a MMORPG like most other F2P's
convenience is a new buzz-word for free to play titles. take gw2 (i know it's buy to play) for example. they sold the idea of all your characters sharing a bank and crafting item space (and people were excited about it) except the space they gave you start out with was almost too small for one character. by selling "convenience" items, they were allowed to inconvenience their players in order to entice them to spend more money.
I'm not sure how I feel about F2P mmos. After playing WoW for years (my first mmo), it is nice to know what you'll have to pay for everything in the game. I've moved on the other games since then and have tried many others. RoM is a good example of a game I wanted to try but didn't because I kept seeing threads about how it was free until endgame (when you needed it to be free the most) and people were spending big bucks. I understand these are companys; thus, need to made money. That being said, many seem to add some form of gimmick in order to literally (cheat) there way into more money.
Another thing I've noticed more and more lately is the P2P model with cash shops as well. This is the worst (imo).
I typically only play games that are 100% P2P with zero CS or F2P models that have P2P options and this option includes everything in the CS to be free to those paying for P2P.
Agree. It should have been called Share To Play not Free. The idea is the game is designed for rich people's vanity and the poor get nothing super fancy but still get to play. It became popular because most gamers are NOT rich and do NOT have extra money to spend on games. But MMO's need a population for better entertainment and sometimes the game just does not function right without x amount of people playing. Bringing in more players ups the games enjoyment for rich and poor alike. The wealthy get to prance around and show off in front of the poor. Which is basically how real life works. Everyone with money is a little Hollywood wannabe. Every poor person just wants a hammock, a drink, and maybe sun block if we can find it on sale.
Vindictus, LVL 40, no money. Some other games are better, some worse, but free to play is not limited to the failure of specific titles. LoL, well I spent a whole lot on that, but didn't have to :P Atlantica, kinda weak, but never spent anything. I'd like to say they weren't worth the money... but than D3 wasn't either, it just charged up front.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
The simple truth is free to play games are free to play. Lying about it won't help your cause.
Exactly.
I have been and always will play some of these games for free. I have yet to drop even a dime. Tell my wallet it is not free.
Just because you are an exception to their intended profit margin does not make it false. Nearly every game that claims to be F2P has a catch: ads that can be removed with sub, or P2W cash shop, or somewhere in between.
Indeed, some will always play for Free, but that number will fall as a percentage of those who play the MMO over time. That's all the MMO company care about.
The simple truth is free to play games are free to play. Lying about it won't help your cause.
Exactly.
I have been and always will play some of these games for free. I have yet to drop even a dime. Tell my wallet it is not free.
Just because you are an exception to their intended profit margin does not make it false. Nearly every game that claims to be F2P has a catch: ads that can be removed with sub, or P2W cash shop, or somewhere in between.
That is all the OP was trying to point out.
More than half MMO players do not pay.
It is well known that most money are spent by whales. So it is certainly false that F2P MMOs are not free to many, or to me. They are.
The catch? The catch is that whales subsidize my gaming, which makes it free for me.
The simple truth is free to play games are free to play. Lying about it won't help your cause.
Exactly.
I have been and always will play some of these games for free. I have yet to drop even a dime. Tell my wallet it is not free.
Just because you are an exception to their intended profit margin does not make it false. Nearly every game that claims to be F2P has a catch: ads that can be removed with sub, or P2W cash shop, or somewhere in between.
That is all the OP was trying to point out.
More than half MMO players do not pay.
It is well known that most money are spent by whales. So it is certainly false that F2P MMOs are not free to many, or to me. They are.
The catch? The catch is that whales subsidize my gaming, which makes it free for me.
Free for someone willing to accept penalties =/= that the game is truly free. Merely that you chose to exploit a loophole.
The simple truth is free to play games are free to play. Lying about it won't help your cause.
Exactly.
I have been and always will play some of these games for free. I have yet to drop even a dime. Tell my wallet it is not free.
Just because you are an exception to their intended profit margin does not make it false. Nearly every game that claims to be F2P has a catch: ads that can be removed with sub, or P2W cash shop, or somewhere in between.
That is all the OP was trying to point out.
More than half MMO players do not pay.
It is well known that most money are spent by whales. So it is certainly false that F2P MMOs are not free to many, or to me. They are.
The catch? The catch is that whales subsidize my gaming, which makes it free for me.
Free for someone willing to accept penalties =/= that the game is truly free. Merely that you chose to exploit a loophole.
Does "free" have any contextual meaning, outside of the space I call "me"?
Who cares what the other guy does or does not pay? Free (as a concept) is only meaningful in relation to my wallet.
Now from the company's pov, it's quite the different story.....but that's their (and your, other guy) problem.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The simple truth is free to play games are free to play. Lying about it won't help your cause.
Exactly.
I have been and always will play some of these games for free. I have yet to drop even a dime. Tell my wallet it is not free.
Just because you are an exception to their intended profit margin does not make it false. Nearly every game that claims to be F2P has a catch: ads that can be removed with sub, or P2W cash shop, or somewhere in between.
That is all the OP was trying to point out.
More than half MMO players do not pay.
It is well known that most money are spent by whales. So it is certainly false that F2P MMOs are not free to many, or to me. They are.
The catch? The catch is that whales subsidize my gaming, which makes it free for me.
Free for someone willing to accept penalties =/= that the game is truly free. Merely that you chose to exploit a loophole.
Does "free" have any contextual meaning, outside of the space I call "me"?
Who cares what the other guy does or does not pay? Free (as a concept) is only meaningful in relation to my wallet.
Now from the company's pov, it's quite the different story.....but that's their (and your, other guy) problem.
Ideally? Nothing. And granted, a number of F2P games can pull this off.
The problem is that if a P2W function exists, it is going to affect anyone in a game in which it has been implemented.
It can range from an unfair advantage in accessing content, to allowing the "whales" to monopolize content, prohibiting access to those who cannot afford the price.
The simple truth is free to play games are free to play. Lying about it won't help your cause.
Exactly.
I have been and always will play some of these games for free. I have yet to drop even a dime. Tell my wallet it is not free.
Just because you are an exception to their intended profit margin does not make it false. Nearly every game that claims to be F2P has a catch: ads that can be removed with sub, or P2W cash shop, or somewhere in between.
That is all the OP was trying to point out.
More than half MMO players do not pay.
It is well known that most money are spent by whales. So it is certainly false that F2P MMOs are not free to many, or to me. They are.
The catch? The catch is that whales subsidize my gaming, which makes it free for me.
Free for someone willing to accept penalties =/= that the game is truly free. Merely that you chose to exploit a loophole.
Does "free" have any contextual meaning, outside of the space I call "me"?
Who cares what the other guy does or does not pay? Free (as a concept) is only meaningful in relation to my wallet.
Now from the company's pov, it's quite the different story.....but that's their (and your, other guy) problem.
Ideally? Nothing. And granted, a number of F2P games can pull this off.
The problem is that if a P2W function exists, it is going to affect anyone in a game in which it has been implemented.
It can range from an unfair advantage in accessing content, to allowing the "whales" to monopolize content, prohibiting access to those who cannot afford the price.
The F2P players do not care and the companies do not care. But those of us who pay do. So vote with your feet, don't pre-order, don't buy things in cash shop until the game has launched. Be very careful about what you put into as a Kickstarter. If you don't like what the cash shop lets you buy don't play that MMO or game.
It is what I do. Trouble is the last one, only playing MMO's which has a cash you like was only viable up to about two years ago. Since then P2W has become the norm.
I know what you F2P guys are going to say, why sweat it, you can play for free. True, but you are playing MMOs which will get worse as time goes on. How many years before there are not any more MMO's to play that once were quality P2P MMO's? Serious funding in the MMO genre is drying up, we had three or four AAA releases last year, I don't see that happening this year or the next.
I know what you F2P guys are going to say, why sweat it, you can play for free. True, but you are playing MMOs which will get worse as time goes on. How many years before there are not any more MMO's to play that once were quality P2P MMO's? Serious funding in the MMO genre is drying up, we had three or four AAA releases last year, I don't see that happening this year or the next.
Well, no Scott, that's not what I would say (not an "F2P guy", either, before you go there).
I would actually ask if you honestly believe in any of these slippery slopes.
You're basically riffing on "There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch", which a lot of people can (generally) agree with.
But those Portents of Doooom...come on. Over the top.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The simple truth is free to play games are free to play. Lying about it won't help your cause.
Exactly.
I have been and always will play some of these games for free. I have yet to drop even a dime. Tell my wallet it is not free.
Just because you are an exception to their intended profit margin does not make it false. Nearly every game that claims to be F2P has a catch: ads that can be removed with sub, or P2W cash shop, or somewhere in between.
That is all the OP was trying to point out.
More than half MMO players do not pay.
It is well known that most money are spent by whales. So it is certainly false that F2P MMOs are not free to many, or to me. They are.
The catch? The catch is that whales subsidize my gaming, which makes it free for me.
Free for someone willing to accept penalties =/= that the game is truly free. Merely that you chose to exploit a loophole.
Does "free" have any contextual meaning, outside of the space I call "me"?
Who cares what the other guy does or does not pay? Free (as a concept) is only meaningful in relation to my wallet.
Now from the company's pov, it's quite the different story.....but that's their (and your, other guy) problem.
Ideally? Nothing. And granted, a number of F2P games can pull this off.
The problem is that if a P2W function exists, it is going to affect anyone in a game in which it has been implemented.
It can range from an unfair advantage in accessing content, to allowing the "whales" to monopolize content, prohibiting access to those who cannot afford the price.
The F2P players do not care and the companies do not care. But those of us who pay do. So vote with your feet, don't pre-order, don't buy things in cash shop until the game has launched. Be very careful about what you put into as a Kickstarter. If you don't like what the cash shop lets you buy don't play that MMO or game.
It is what I do. Trouble is the last one, only playing MMO's which has a cash you like was only viable up to about two years ago. Since then P2W has become the norm.
I know what you F2P guys are going to say, why sweat it, you can play for free. True, but you are playing MMOs which will get worse as time goes on. How many years before there are not any more MMO's to play that once were quality P2P MMO's? Serious funding in the MMO genre is drying up, we had three or four AAA releases last year, I don't see that happening this year or the next.
I am totally OK with fewer "AAA" releases (whatever that actually means) if we get more "indie" releases.
What's an "AAA" game anyway? One developed with a budget so large that it can't be allowed to take any risks whatsoever, so we get another big budget, overhyped, bland, lowest-common-denominator gameplay MMO with nothing in it that hasn't been leeched - sorry, market researched out of other games, plus a well known IP bought and paid for purely to scam brutally overpriced pre-orders out of pre-existing fans of that IP.
If not a single MMO was ever released on that model ever again, I would not shed one tear.
Comments
I see F2P as an experience and a way of getting to know a game. If you enjoy the game, then you contribute more time and maybe spend a little money to boost your status.
F2P doesn't = evil at all, their business model is to earn money, they have bills to pay etc, and the game wouldn't last too long if it wasn't for player spending.
Kids these days are such arseholes, you complain about getting to play games for free, try going back to the 90's and early 2000 when free premium titles were none existant.
It is often demonized for the very examples you listed.
Weapons, armor, bag space- If two players' similar progression rates diverge because one has the advantage of extra money to spend on these upgrades, suddenly the concept becomes P2W.
This is a payment option which stems from F2P, and can have serious consequences, in spite of its supplemental dividends.
That said, if F2P can avoid the monetary allure of said option, they can still remain perfectly viable- depending on the game's design, of course.
I think you all pretty much Missed the OP's point here in this thread, and started arguing amongst one another with your own beliefs what you think is right and what you think is wrong. Because you all seem to think your each the ObI-Won of Gaming and you know everything about everything. You really should try taking the time to read a post, and sitting a bit too wait until your brain can comprehend all the words. He isn't saying Free 2 Play is bad like one poster assumed, nor is he saying "we" are stupid one another poster seemed to assume. What he basically is saying here is the "Free to play" Label isn't free to play. You can play the game free yes but in order to get all it's features you have to pay for it technically speaking that isn't free to play. Thats all he is saying.
except free to play games are already viable. even if people label them "pay to win". f2p mmo's out number p2p now maybe 15 to 1. if a game allows the players to acquire all weapons, gear, bag-space, etc. in game, how does selling those things make it pay to win? people (at least a lot of them) label those games "pay to win" because they feel jealous (this part is all my opionion of course). if they spend the time in the game and acquire the top items why should they care it "Johnny" spent his allowance on the top items? how does one players progression affeect another player's slower progression? they both have the same opportunity to complete all the content. one's path may be quicker than the others, but you get what you pay for. you want to "beat a game in a few days? you might have to spend a little cash to support the game you are playing.
can you play the game for free? or do you want bells and whistles?
We know that.
Regardless of the message he was trying to relay, these topics grow their own legs, due to the topic's volatility.
We can either sit back and do nothing, or try and address outrageous assertions head-on.
This only true depending on opinion though.
I remember a lot of people being of the opinion that Stash tabs where pay to win.
I disagree because you can make new accounts and get as many tabs as you want, the dev's even said this is perfectly fine, tabs are just a convenience, but that doesn't change the fact that others still dislike this business model, they don't think It's 100% free to play.
The only true Free2play that i can think of is League of Legends ( Although i haven't played it ) I was under the impression they really sold nothing but character skins, which seems nice ( Sorry if I'm wrong ) Of course LoL isn't really a MMORPG like most other F2P's
convenience is a new buzz-word for free to play titles. take gw2 (i know it's buy to play) for example. they sold the idea of all your characters sharing a bank and crafting item space (and people were excited about it) except the space they gave you start out with was almost too small for one character. by selling "convenience" items, they were allowed to inconvenience their players in order to entice them to spend more money.
This is what happens when people dislike an idea without paying attention to what people are doing with the idea.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm not sure how I feel about F2P mmos. After playing WoW for years (my first mmo), it is nice to know what you'll have to pay for everything in the game. I've moved on the other games since then and have tried many others. RoM is a good example of a game I wanted to try but didn't because I kept seeing threads about how it was free until endgame (when you needed it to be free the most) and people were spending big bucks. I understand these are companys; thus, need to made money. That being said, many seem to add some form of gimmick in order to literally (cheat) there way into more money.
Another thing I've noticed more and more lately is the P2P model with cash shops as well. This is the worst (imo).
I typically only play games that are 100% P2P with zero CS or F2P models that have P2P options and this option includes everything in the CS to be free to those paying for P2P.
Exactly.
I have been and always will play some of these games for free. I have yet to drop even a dime. Tell my wallet it is not free.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Just because you are an exception to their intended profit margin does not make it false. Nearly every game that claims to be F2P has a catch: ads that can be removed with sub, or P2W cash shop, or somewhere in between.
That is all the OP was trying to point out.
More than half MMO players do not pay.
It is well known that most money are spent by whales. So it is certainly false that F2P MMOs are not free to many, or to me. They are.
The catch? The catch is that whales subsidize my gaming, which makes it free for me.
Free for someone willing to accept penalties =/= that the game is truly free. Merely that you chose to exploit a loophole.
Does "free" have any contextual meaning, outside of the space I call "me"?
Who cares what the other guy does or does not pay? Free (as a concept) is only meaningful in relation to my wallet.
Now from the company's pov, it's quite the different story.....but that's their (and your, other guy) problem.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ideally? Nothing. And granted, a number of F2P games can pull this off.
The problem is that if a P2W function exists, it is going to affect anyone in a game in which it has been implemented.
It can range from an unfair advantage in accessing content, to allowing the "whales" to monopolize content, prohibiting access to those who cannot afford the price.
The F2P players do not care and the companies do not care. But those of us who pay do. So vote with your feet, don't pre-order, don't buy things in cash shop until the game has launched. Be very careful about what you put into as a Kickstarter. If you don't like what the cash shop lets you buy don't play that MMO or game.
It is what I do. Trouble is the last one, only playing MMO's which has a cash you like was only viable up to about two years ago. Since then P2W has become the norm.
I know what you F2P guys are going to say, why sweat it, you can play for free. True, but you are playing MMOs which will get worse as time goes on. How many years before there are not any more MMO's to play that once were quality P2P MMO's? Serious funding in the MMO genre is drying up, we had three or four AAA releases last year, I don't see that happening this year or the next.
Well, no Scott, that's not what I would say (not an "F2P guy", either, before you go there).
I would actually ask if you honestly believe in any of these slippery slopes.
You're basically riffing on "There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch", which a lot of people can (generally) agree with.
But those Portents of Doooom...come on. Over the top.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I am totally OK with fewer "AAA" releases (whatever that actually means) if we get more "indie" releases.
What's an "AAA" game anyway? One developed with a budget so large that it can't be allowed to take any risks whatsoever, so we get another big budget, overhyped, bland, lowest-common-denominator gameplay MMO with nothing in it that hasn't been leeched - sorry, market researched out of other games, plus a well known IP bought and paid for purely to scam brutally overpriced pre-orders out of pre-existing fans of that IP.
If not a single MMO was ever released on that model ever again, I would not shed one tear.
Give me liberty or give me lasers