1. Who doesn't care about story? Apparently people who need to play games with better stories.
2. I don't think levels are necessarily bad (I don't particularly like them), but I more or less agree with what you're saying. Levels are primarily a way to gate off content and create an artificial pace and sense of progression. They are generally unnecessary in design, though they are a useful catch-all crutch.
As for "learning your class," it really depends. Frequently that doesn't hold up to the principle of specificity: if you want to get better at something, keep doing that thing. Often times a single ability/trait throws in wrench in almost everything you know about a class. Other times the progression manages to work you into things slowly. It's hard to generalize on that argument.
It is just your opinion and any reply I make will be just my opinion.
Games ARE timesinks. ANYTHING is a timesink if you fail to understand why you are willing to waste time doing it.
...Anyone can buy a book. Some people enjoy reading the book, absorbing the words and getting involved in the story. Some people read the last page first. Some people think simply knowing what the end of the book is means they understand the story. Some people think understanding the story means they know what the ending means.
I did a round the world trip when I was younger and when I got back home I was sad, not happy. The point of the trip was the journey not the destination. Some people think the destination is more important, I think they are idiots!
Improving your character by leveling is the only interesting part of an mmo. Loot grinding sucks, dungeon raids are boring because most of the time you just sit there and press 1, 2 ,3, 2, 3 ,2 for 30 minutes till the enemy is dead and move on. The journey is the fun part not the destination.
1. Who doesn't care about story? Apparently people who need to play games with better stories.
Do you feel ATITD, Furcadia, Kaneva and Second Life are being remiss in not providing better stories (or any story, for that matter)?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Another note. If you want to play an mmorpg witout leveling, go play a moba. You kill pointless creatures, buy equipment, and pvp players without the hassle of leveling up.
1. Who doesn't care about story? Apparently people who need to play games with better stories.
Do you feel ATITD, Furcadia, Kaneva and Second Life are being remiss in not providing better stories (or any story, for that matter)?
I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a game that doesn't provide a story (or provides a minimal one for setting/context), but I think the person who stated that no one cares about story was way off base. Plenty of people care about story. In many cases that's the main reason they play.
Leveling is part of mmo's... Take away the ball in a basketball game and whats left ?
Socializing, creating, combat, and collection to name a few.
For the obtuse: Yes, you can reduce any act to some granular or abstract form of progression, but the OP is talking specifically about skill gain and player level gain.
I don't think the complaint existed originally.
PVP players complained about grindng PVE (that they didn't want to do), but it took a while before they griped at the public about it. I don't remember the first "why do I have to level?" post until...2006 maybe?
The EQ guys didn't start bitchin' about 'forced grouping' right away, either.
I don't recall instance runs being considered a 'grind' until someone tied raid gear rewards to them.
And nothing can make you more grumpy about 'grinding' than 'rewards "required" plus many repetitions plus random scrubs'.
Took many years for this single malt complaint to distill out from general bitterness.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It is but doesn't have to be,all we need is a good producer and willing board members to set in motion a good game design.
Since they are all 99% meaningless,i at least want very long time sinks so we can enjoy the great gear we work so hard for.As is now,most games the gear is meaningless,you out level it in one day,how fun it that,not fun at all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As is now,most games the gear is meaningless,you out level it in one day,how fun it that,not fun at all.
I used minor variants of the same basic Vultite weapon for most of a decade... But only because I couldn't really afford the heavily crit-weighted and rare stuff like Galvorn.
But that was before the Blizzard influence on 'most games'.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't recall instance runs being considered a 'grind' until someone tied raid gear rewards to them.
I don't know what it was about Scarlet Monastery, but I could run that endlessly without ever tiring of it. I had long since outleveled anything I could get from that place and still enjoyed going through it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by IcewhiteI don't recall instance runs being considered a 'grind' until someone tied raid gear rewards to them.
I don't know what it was about Scarlet Monastery, but I could run that endlessly without ever tiring of it. I had long since outleveled anything I could get from that place and still enjoyed going through it.
We would talk our lower level members and alts into going through Scarlet Monastery so we could go through there too. Sometimes we'd hit that guy and gal team before clearing all the monks to see what the people who had never been there would do. he he :-)
On the subject of the thread, I think leveling is a grind, in that you have to get through the whole thing, whether you want to or not in order to play any MMO where leveling is a mechanic. That doesn't mean it's mindless or that it can't be fun.
Ugh. Grinding faction rep or grinding raids for gear though, bleh.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The lack of options in the poll made me choose the option closest to my view which is: In certain MMOs leveling isn't a mindless timesink because leveling is difficult to do it alone or even in a group thus adversity in the environment breeds community (you'd see less neckbears and little kids screaming at the top of their lungs in chat what they'd like to do with x, y or z's mom or how x,y,z is a noob fag or whatnot because those people would be stuck in a shit pond of progression with few friends to call on for help).
The lack of meaningful and difficult progression results in the mindless time sink, otherwise it would just be a time sink no worse or better than all the differing kinds of timesinks in existence (gear, crafting, time-based timesinks, etc).
Back in the olden days when MMO games were fun , like EQ for example , You couldn't solo very easily.
So what people did was this amazing thing called grouping . I know it sounds stupid and old school to actually group to level up but that's what we did back in the old days .
Now I know social interaction these days like typing hello even isn't done much and grouping is just press a button for a automatic que . Back in the old days we actually had to type words that made sentences inorder to get a group .
We used to camp an area waiting for respawn , in between spawns we actually chat to party members and sometimes became friends , that led to things later on sometimes , and sometimes friends became guild mates .
Originally posted by immodium For me personally I just find PvE combat mindless.
You're late.
>PVP players complained about grindng PVE (that they didn't want to do)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It is but doesn't have to be,all we need is a good producer and willing board members to set in motion a good game design.
Since they are all 99% meaningless,i at least want very long time sinks so we can enjoy the great gear we work so hard for.As is now,most games the gear is meaningless,you out level it in one day,how fun it that,not fun at all.
I find biggest fun in obtaining new and better gear than using one for years
Back in the olden days when MMO games were fun , like EQ for example , You couldn't solo very easily.
So what people did was this amazing thing called grouping . I know it sounds stupid and old school to actually group to level up but that's what we did back in the old days .
Now I know social interaction these days like typing hello even isn't done much and grouping is just press a button for a automatic que . Back in the old days we actually had to type words that made sentences inorder to get a group .
We used to camp an area waiting for respawn , in between spawns we actually chat to party members and sometimes became friends , that led to things later on sometimes , and sometimes friends became guild mates .
Anyways this is ancient gaming , a lost art .
Take off your rose-tinted glasses please.
EQ is still around so not sure why the usage of past tense.
Nothing is stopping anyone from interacting with each other so, this is just bizarre to call out.
And I never realized 'waiting for a respawn' was a fun game mechanic.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
EQ is still around so not sure why the usage of past tense.
Nothing is stopping anyone from interacting with each other so, this is just bizarre to call out.
And I never realized 'waiting for a respawn' was a fun game mechanic.
Oh please, you're just being insulting. Stop it with the rose-colored glasses comments. They're tired now. Waiting for the respawn was just as important as killing it. It forced socializing. I guess everyone just likes to solo games now without talking to anyone else? His depiction of past events ( and yes they are past because you never see it anymore, just people waiting to hit their queue button) is spot on and many people remember it fondly. Please stop insulting that point of view.
The main argument I see for why "SLOW" leveling is needed, is because it makes people learn their class.
Well thats a common misconception. What if somebody played one spec while leveling, and switched to a new spec once at max level thats totally different. How would any of that level grinding, develop their skill in using those others specs?
We see this a lot in trinity based games. People level as DPS or something like it, but want to play Healer or Tank at endgame, which is a totally different play style.
Group content is the best way to develop Tanking and Healing skills. Not Leveling.
Seem like people also feel that people who dont like grinding, shouldnt play MMOs. Well when did it become set in stone that MMO gamers need to like grinding, and that all MMOs need to be grindy?
I to quit my favorite MMO (rift) during Storm Legion because of the huge level grind. I couldnt bare being locked away from content and features and builds after spending months as a max level already. The Level grind was long and boring killing mobs and mobs, or even Quest and Quest or whatever else in between.
Same thing in GW2. I was bored out my mind trying to level my alts after the big flood of hype wore off. Man that was crazy boring. Events and Hearts just were totally boring for leveling. After my Main got to 80, I refused to do hearts anymore because of how tired I am of Quest Grinding in MMOs. But outside of Hearts there was a hard time gaining consistent leveling exp which also felt slower than it already was with the heart grind.
Why do we need levels in MMO anymore?
All they do is lock away players from content.
Its a huge time sink. Prove me wrong!!!!
Take any Themepark MMO that has level grind. Now imagine how that game would be if it didnt have level. Everything would be endgame content. Imagine that for a moment. That seem like a better game than they currently are.
New MMO games launch with level grind, than when people get to max level, they find out that most of the development resources went into non max level content which become meaningless and outleveled. (SWTOR, Rift, WoW, etc)
But if that same game had no levels to begin with, all that content would be endgame instead of the tiny max level stuff.
Levels Segregate the community.
again Prove me wrong!!
Ok, I see a lot of issues but no solutions. Explain how this could be solved?
Another point: Like someone else said MMO's in and of themselves are a time sink, all games are. You aren't progressing your life ( at least I hope not) in a game, I think and I believe most people would agree it is a way to waste time and forget about everyday life for a bit.
If the point is not the journey, but the end, then why play MMORPG games? It has since the PnP and mud games been about the journey, which is the major issue with all MMORPG's imo at this point. They turned it into a race to end game with very little meaningful stops along the way. why can't we have level 10 raids? just one question of many I would ask devs if I could.
No I don't think the issue is with the grind, I think the issue is with lack of meaning to the grind. I don't so much care about getting to 'end game' (which there should not be in a MMORPG imo) as I do having fun along the way. I get not many people will agree with me, but oh well.
At any rate, I disagree with you completely. All we seem to see eye to eye on is that there is something wrong with the whole genre of on-line games.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I actually did some thinking and came to the conclusion that the real problem is not the exp grind. Someone gave Lineage 2 as an example to a grind. Since I played this game for many years (since the beginning) It struck me immediately. The real problem with exping in new games is that ... there is not much to do on low level. Think about it, the nice skills are high level, the better looking armors are on the highest levels and yes even the better encounters are at the so called "end-game". On low level all you do is stomp a spider or a wolf or a troll or some undead abomination. This is NOT fun. The fun starts at "end-game" in most game, making the path to that end game extremely tedious and not fun at all. And by the time you get to the "end-game" you are so fed up with shit that you just move on after you finally reach your "goal". I had that in TSW. Finished the 3 main stories, got some cool gear, developed 5 decks on 1 character and I just can't bring myself to login again.
The funny thing is that Gw2 is trying to change that as well. There is not much more you can do at level 80 than what you can on level ... 30 for example. I like that! Being able to use arah armor skin on a lvl 20 armor just because I had transmute stones was OP as well ^_^
...The fun starts at "end-game" in most game, making the path to that end game extremely tedious and not fun at all. And by the time you get to the "end-game" you are so fed up with...
Makes so much sense to keep raising level caps, doesn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
Ive played AC2 and ive never thought it was grind.
Played also Darkfall1 2.5years and never ones thought it was a timesink or grind i just play and have fun.
1. Who doesn't care about story? Apparently people who need to play games with better stories.
2. I don't think levels are necessarily bad (I don't particularly like them), but I more or less agree with what you're saying. Levels are primarily a way to gate off content and create an artificial pace and sense of progression. They are generally unnecessary in design, though they are a useful catch-all crutch.
As for "learning your class," it really depends. Frequently that doesn't hold up to the principle of specificity: if you want to get better at something, keep doing that thing. Often times a single ability/trait throws in wrench in almost everything you know about a class. Other times the progression manages to work you into things slowly. It's hard to generalize on that argument.
To pick up on a few points from others...
It is just your opinion and any reply I make will be just my opinion.
Games ARE timesinks. ANYTHING is a timesink if you fail to understand why you are willing to waste time doing it.
...Anyone can buy a book. Some people enjoy reading the book, absorbing the words and getting involved in the story. Some people read the last page first. Some people think simply knowing what the end of the book is means they understand the story. Some people think understanding the story means they know what the ending means.
I did a round the world trip when I was younger and when I got back home I was sad, not happy. The point of the trip was the journey not the destination. Some people think the destination is more important, I think they are idiots!
Do you feel ATITD, Furcadia, Kaneva and Second Life are being remiss in not providing better stories (or any story, for that matter)?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a game that doesn't provide a story (or provides a minimal one for setting/context), but I think the person who stated that no one cares about story was way off base. Plenty of people care about story. In many cases that's the main reason they play.
talking about timesinks on a forum is a timesink.
I dont get it.....if you dont like spending your time in a game, just go outside for a walk or have a beer with friends (wich are ALL timesinks imo
)
I don't think the complaint existed originally.
PVP players complained about grindng PVE (that they didn't want to do), but it took a while before they griped at the public about it. I don't remember the first "why do I have to level?" post until...2006 maybe?
The EQ guys didn't start bitchin' about 'forced grouping' right away, either.
I don't recall instance runs being considered a 'grind' until someone tied raid gear rewards to them.
And nothing can make you more grumpy about 'grinding' than 'rewards "required" plus many repetitions plus random scrubs'.
Took many years for this single malt complaint to distill out from general bitterness.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It is but doesn't have to be,all we need is a good producer and willing board members to set in motion a good game design.
Since they are all 99% meaningless,i at least want very long time sinks so we can enjoy the great gear we work so hard for.As is now,most games the gear is meaningless,you out level it in one day,how fun it that,not fun at all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I used minor variants of the same basic Vultite weapon for most of a decade... But only because I couldn't really afford the heavily crit-weighted and rare stuff like Galvorn.
But that was before the Blizzard influence on 'most games'.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't know what it was about Scarlet Monastery, but I could run that endlessly without ever tiring of it. I had long since outleveled anything I could get from that place and still enjoyed going through it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
We would talk our lower level members and alts into going through Scarlet Monastery so we could go through there too. Sometimes we'd hit that guy and gal team before clearing all the monks to see what the people who had never been there would do. he he :-)
On the subject of the thread, I think leveling is a grind, in that you have to get through the whole thing, whether you want to or not in order to play any MMO where leveling is a mechanic. That doesn't mean it's mindless or that it can't be fun.
Ugh. Grinding faction rep or grinding raids for gear though, bleh.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The lack of options in the poll made me choose the option closest to my view which is: In certain MMOs leveling isn't a mindless timesink because leveling is difficult to do it alone or even in a group thus adversity in the environment breeds community (you'd see less neckbears and little kids screaming at the top of their lungs in chat what they'd like to do with x, y or z's mom or how x,y,z is a noob fag or whatnot because those people would be stuck in a shit pond of progression with few friends to call on for help).
The lack of meaningful and difficult progression results in the mindless time sink, otherwise it would just be a time sink no worse or better than all the differing kinds of timesinks in existence (gear, crafting, time-based timesinks, etc).
Back in the olden days when MMO games were fun , like EQ for example , You couldn't solo very easily.
So what people did was this amazing thing called grouping . I know it sounds stupid and old school to actually group to level up but that's what we did back in the old days .
Now I know social interaction these days like typing hello even isn't done much and grouping is just press a button for a automatic que . Back in the old days we actually had to type words that made sentences inorder to get a group .
We used to camp an area waiting for respawn , in between spawns we actually chat to party members and sometimes became friends , that led to things later on sometimes , and sometimes friends became guild mates .
Anyways this is ancient gaming , a lost art .
You're late.
>PVP players complained about grindng PVE (that they didn't want to do)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I find biggest fun in obtaining new and better gear than using one for years
I'll get my coat.
Take off your rose-tinted glasses please.
EQ is still around so not sure why the usage of past tense.
Nothing is stopping anyone from interacting with each other so, this is just bizarre to call out.
And I never realized 'waiting for a respawn' was a fun game mechanic.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Oh please, you're just being insulting. Stop it with the rose-colored glasses comments. They're tired now. Waiting for the respawn was just as important as killing it. It forced socializing. I guess everyone just likes to solo games now without talking to anyone else? His depiction of past events ( and yes they are past because you never see it anymore, just people waiting to hit their queue button) is spot on and many people remember it fondly. Please stop insulting that point of view.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ok, I see a lot of issues but no solutions. Explain how this could be solved?
Another point: Like someone else said MMO's in and of themselves are a time sink, all games are. You aren't progressing your life ( at least I hope not) in a game, I think and I believe most people would agree it is a way to waste time and forget about everyday life for a bit.
If the point is not the journey, but the end, then why play MMORPG games? It has since the PnP and mud games been about the journey, which is the major issue with all MMORPG's imo at this point. They turned it into a race to end game with very little meaningful stops along the way. why can't we have level 10 raids? just one question of many I would ask devs if I could.
No I don't think the issue is with the grind, I think the issue is with lack of meaning to the grind. I don't so much care about getting to 'end game' (which there should not be in a MMORPG imo) as I do having fun along the way. I get not many people will agree with me, but oh well.
At any rate, I disagree with you completely. All we seem to see eye to eye on is that there is something wrong with the whole genre of on-line games.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I actually did some thinking and came to the conclusion that the real problem is not the exp grind. Someone gave Lineage 2 as an example to a grind. Since I played this game for many years (since the beginning) It struck me immediately. The real problem with exping in new games is that ... there is not much to do on low level. Think about it, the nice skills are high level, the better looking armors are on the highest levels and yes even the better encounters are at the so called "end-game". On low level all you do is stomp a spider or a wolf or a troll or some undead abomination. This is NOT fun. The fun starts at "end-game" in most game, making the path to that end game extremely tedious and not fun at all. And by the time you get to the "end-game" you are so fed up with shit that you just move on after you finally reach your "goal". I had that in TSW. Finished the 3 main stories, got some cool gear, developed 5 decks on 1 character and I just can't bring myself to login again.
The funny thing is that Gw2 is trying to change that as well. There is not much more you can do at level 80 than what you can on level ... 30 for example. I like that! Being able to use arah armor skin on a lvl 20 armor just because I had transmute stones was OP as well ^_^
Makes so much sense to keep raising level caps, doesn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.