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[Column] General: Levels

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  • YoofaloofYoofaloof Member UncommonPosts: 217

    I don't pay that much attention to levels, I like to take my time taking everything in, reading the lore, crafting etc and if I happen to level up on the way it's a nice little bonus. For some players it's the be all and end all it seems, reaching level cap on day 1. 

    I've recently played Neverwinter and in the first dungeon all the players were off, you couldn't see them for dust.

    I can't be the only 'take my time player' can I?

     

  • sketocafesketocafe Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Levels have no meaning. It's just numbers. There's no difference between being level 2 if you get 100 hp and 5 str per level or being level 10 if you get 20 hp and 1 str.  You don't need to add one to the number on a character sheet to give a player a new ability or a new talent point to spend.   You can give people skill points for doing quests and tune it so you have 3 skill quests in each of your 10 zones and it's no different from giving 1 every other level up to 60.

    As you stated in your article you can give progression without giving levels. I understand that people like to see character progression, but the trade-offs you make with levels isn't worth the illusion of progression they grant. 

    With most games, don't think about attacking another player who's just 5 levels higher than you, what are you stupid? You can't do that.

    With level caps and expansions which raise them, you literally chuck every previous raid out the door when you up that cap. How many raids and dungeons does wow have that are tuned to a level below the current cap compared to what they currently have for max level players. Why on earth would you want to trivialize all of that content by leveling players above it? Seriously, what is the benefit from throwing out all of those raids?

     

     

  • TheodwulfTheodwulf Member UncommonPosts: 311
    Individual progression is important; it is what gets us attached to out toons..It doesn't have to be the way we are used to , BUT it doers need to exist.
  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Member UncommonPosts: 2,341

    Amazing to me how many people here that agree with the author have also complained that a game like GW2 needs more progression/higher level cap.

     

    I for one would rather ditch the 'level' system entirely and simply introduce new skills into the game that need to be worked on. It's possible to ditch the numbers entirely, but by focusing less on an overall player level and more on leveling facets of the character through gameplay, you prolong the reward and enjoyment you get from playing with the same avatar. Further, it's far easier to introduce new skills, new crafts, new spells to a game than it is to constantly raise a singular level cap and create new content for it. That's not to say skill-based systems don't have their own problems, one has to find the proper balance between grind and longetivity, but its still the better option. Ideally we have a combination of both systems, but with character level being only an overall indication of a person's strength (i.e., Elder Scrolls, Demons Souls, etc) rather than the basis for it.

     

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  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    Originally posted by Eivi
    [edited] I would love it to be entirely free roam gear based.

    again, nice write up :)

    AKA “skip the leveling and jump straight to endgame”  remember endgame is where “Stats become fixed and you level hit points and damage via gear bonuses.”  I say no.  Leveling must stay.  When people complain about MMORPGs being dumbed down, they are referring to games with minimal leveling and quick jumps to max level.

    Yes, a nice write up.

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  • ZerovizZeroviz Member Posts: 1

    I always dreamed of a game that was nothing but raiding or dungeons. Where you can only unlock the next dungeon if you can complete the previous or until your gear is good enough to unlock it. I think it would be an awesome idea for game. It would work for PvP too where you face people around your gear level, if you want to get to the bigger or better maps you need to get your gear up to join them.

     

    Get rid of the levels.

  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099

    I would argue that in the WoW archetype, character level is already fading away.  It's gear level, not character level which is most important measure of power and as a character levels, it's the new tiers of gear that are contributing the bulk of the power-up.   Gear has always been a part of character progression in RPGs, but with computers handling all the bookkeeping, gear is now much, much more complex than it ever was in the pencil and paper days.

     

    The hole that any leveling game digs itself (whether character or gear) is that as soon as you introduce a new tier of gear, you've instantly made all the old content obsolete.  A little of this is good because it lets people find their preferred level of difficulty, but it also tends to leave players frustrated because you have powergamers feeling like the progression curve has decayed into a grind while casual players feel like the game is relentlessly advancing faster than they can keep up.

     

    To me, the solution is horizontal plot-specific (or minigame-specific) progression paths.  Get rid of any global level for character or gear.  Your character is your character, a sword is a sword - you don't radically change who you are over the course of your travels.. Instead, treat each plotline or minigame as its own progression path ( experience that only buffs the character within that gameplay ).  This gives you the best of both worlds: progression curves galore for that hit of feeling your power expand, but doing one zone/story doesn't render all other previous content obsolete.

     
  • NimilanorNimilanor Member CommonPosts: 3

    the problem with mmo's today is choice.  there are so many mmo's  both good and bad.

    people will form their opinions on a few key things :

    level - content - Character design (COH / CO did this verry well)

    Armour models / weapon models.

    pvp content , pve content.

    Raids easy to get into or gearscore gated E.A Wow like.

    Also the creation of player made things? (Foundry anyone, best invention ever, UO aside)

    Though also players look for : time spent / rewards earned.

    Noone wants to sit through a 2 hour long dungeon or raid only to leave empty handed and this is where alot of mmo's cock up, either make a boss drop a chest everyone can loot for different stuff ( DDO anyone?) or at the verry least make the last boss drop something everyone will be able to use.. and I dont mean crappy currency tokens.)

    ----

    now for myself.. as a roleplayer I look for key things like :

    Gear looks , character looks , game lore.

    Pve content ofcourse. being max level only interests me for cosmetic dress up purposes.

    usually higher level equals better looking clothing wich is a shame.

    anyway that is my two cents on how some players view mmo's of these days.

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    Very nicely written column as usual sir. i agree with what you said about leveling. i also feel that people get over the idea "leveling = content". even when i was playing single player rpg i hated the level system, it always felt like that this system was trying to halt my pace with bunch of bigger numbers. what you said about DDO is what i experienced when i 1st heard about DDO, i heard that : "DDO "only" has 20 level". i thought "what?? 20 FREAKING LEVEL IN DnD game?", i knew a little bit about DnD rpg benchmark and rpg books, i was thinking "hold on, how many levels i will have to gain as warrior and priest before i can level my paladin to level 2? 20 level is way too much for DnD games!!!'" but people who had no idea about DnD was like "20 level? what a tiny piss poor game!!" . and i agree with your analysis on cataclysm, i liked this approach of solo leveling but group based content progression. another game that does it right is DCUO, DCUO simply told me "level is just a number, think of it as a tutorial as to how to play the game, real game begins after you get to 30", Cataclysm was also the same design. too bad people who think "leveling=content" outnumber us.

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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    I think leveling is mainly popular because it is simple and you easily can compare newer characters with eachother.

    I am somewhat puzzled though that so many players like the current "endgame" which basically is taking the last 20 or so levels from the old MMOs and making them item based instead of stat based. They are just as grindy but becomes worthless effort after the next expansion unlike levels.

    I would like something closer to Shadowruns P&P system though instead of levels, it makes customizing your character more fun and you can make an almost unique character instead of the close to cardboard copies we have in most levelbased MMOs.

    Interesting article anyways, I feel that leveling is something that can either be removed or be remodeled to make MMOs more fun and long lasting.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,088

    I don't mind levels as character progression. But I do mind gated content because of levels. If there are features/content that are lvl restricted, then levels become an annoyance to me. This is the case in many MMO's where levels mainly introduce silly restrictions.

     

    I like how Skyrim uses leveling and experience. I can focus on exploring, story and combat without having the immersion destroying mechanics where the world is divided areas with their own lvl brackets. Gear/mounts have no lvl requirements. Quests do, but they simply won't show up if you are not high enough lvl.

     

    Now this same system can't be used in a MMO of course. But some MMO's have some nice mechanics to deal with lvl differences for multiple players. GW2 for example, where your character is always scaled down to the lvl of the area. There are other MMO's with decent solutions to this.

     

    But most of the time, MMO devs come up with ridiculous ideas for character progression. Like lvl requirements for learning to use a mount.

     

    Imo, the moment players are only focused on getting to max level as fast as possible because that is where the 'fun' starts in their eyes, it means you created a boring game.


    Edited: creating paragraphs (Why do they need 2 whitelines? )
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    The biggest problem with leveling, you basically kill the content as you level.  Once through a low level area you are done with it, unless of course you make alts.  That in itself is the number one reason having levels in a game is dumb.  It restricts the end game to small portion of the game.  Never had that problem in UO, nor SWG, nor AC1.  You have to wonder why anyone would spend time developing content that people only go through once in development of their avatar.  
  • TithenonTithenon Member UncommonPosts: 113

    "So this begs the question. If getting gear and increasing stats can replace leveling in a game, why bother with levels at all?"

     

    In the first place, in tabletop RPGs, which is what MMORPGs are SUPPOSED to be based on, your gear rarely changes, except for improving in ability to hit.  It's your skills, talents, knacks, and abilities that change.  I'm going to use Earthdawn as the example for what I would like to see in MMOs.  In most all MMOs, you gain a certain number of experience points and you go up a level, which AUTOMATICALLY gives you all the bonuses for that level, and then you gain more experience and, at your next level, like clockwork, you automatically gain the all the bonuses for that level.  You can play five of the very same type of character, and you're going to have five very similar, if not absolutely exact characters, at the same level.  EVERYONE on the server has the very same character when they reach the end-game content, it's all the same garbage all the time.  This is especially true when you have only 5 classes, or so.

     

    Now, Earthdawn... 15 Disciplines (Classes) to begin with, 15 Circles (Levels) each.  You begin at 1st Circle and you choose up to 8 Talents (Magical Skills) -more to the point you have eight points to split among a group of Talents, with a maximum of 3 in any one Talent- that you like for your character.  You have to have a certain minimum number of those Talents raised to 2nd Circle -and this is true for all other Circles-, and a certain amount of Legend (Experience) Points (LPs) before the 2nd Circle can be opened up to your character.  But, instead of automatically gaining all of your bonuses, it simply opens those bonuses to you, and you have to purchase them, through the use of these accrued Legend Points, before you can use them.  This includes increasing Ranks on your Talents, increasing your Attribute Values so you can increase your Death Rating (Hit Points) and Unconsciousness Rating, and purchasing non-magical Skills in the game.  This is added to increasing Ranks on Legendary (Magic) items, activating Group powers, and a few other things in the game.

     

    A system like this is a bit more difficult to deal with, but it allows each person to customize their character, by Ranks and by Talents chosen, and thus by abilities available overall, so players can have unique characters.

     

    The technology is here, and it should be used.  The much vaunted TESO is not going to correct this, though they'll have skills that will automatically increase individually, as they're used; however, this does not allow a player the ability to build their character as they see fit.  Secret World did about the same thing, only they somehow came up with 700 active and passive skills for players to mix and match in small doses to be used in the game.  No levels, but no real direction to go, either.  The perfect mix has to be somewhere in-between.

     

    To answer the original question: levels are heavily passe, and there are better ways to deal with advancement for player's characters.

     

    For anyone who will decide to respond to me, I am unable to receive -I've worked with the admins here multiple times to try and resolve this- notifications on returning comments.  All of my settings are right, so that's not the problem.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Member UncommonPosts: 314
    I view levels as a simplified and standardized method of gauging power, sometimes stats and efficacy are too convoluted for players to understand, so levels make character power recognition and progress accessible.

    The alternative requires statistical formulae to be simplified so players do not have to struggle to figure out what stat is interacting and how...

    Since character development is such a big part of what you do with your time in an MMO, I don't think standardized levels are the best medium for progression, on the surface it makes RPGs more accessible, but ultimately it subtracts from the depth of the gameplay.

    More action and minigame oriented games could probably approach this more easily since many statistics are removed in lineu of actual control. But I think the main thing an MMO needs to present is the actual enjoyment of the gameplay in order to sell more open and complex character development.

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  • sunshadow21sunshadow21 Member UncommonPosts: 357
    Originally posted by Ozmodan
    The biggest problem with leveling, you basically kill the content as you level.  Once through a low level area you are done with it, unless of course you make alts.  That in itself is the number one reason having levels in a game is dumb.  It restricts the end game to small portion of the game.  Never had that problem in UO, nor SWG, nor AC1.  You have to wonder why anyone would spend time developing content that people only go through once in development of their avatar.  

    Final Fantasy proves this to be not necessary. It pulled off having multiple level mobs and quests in the same area quite well. Now, if you insist on using the current model of one level range per zone, than yes, there will be problems, but having levels is only one small part of the much bigger design flaw.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770
    I don't know why but the article reads like:
    Hey, I'm innocent! You still have your game of "levels". It only isn't the one with a giant number over your head. :p

    If you want players to get past the concept of levels = content then make levels not define content.

    I don't judge a game by it's levels at all. I judge what happens in between them. The levels should build on it making it more enjoyable. Otherwise it is a shallow game with levels.

    In the general sense I feel most MMOs that stick to the traditional model but have a few "twists" are still doomed. Only way out is for some very different and unique concepts. Traditional character levels are ridiculously overused.

    Currently I'm obsessed with the game Don't Starve as I shove any F2P MMO available to the side to play this. There are no levels. The learned experience you gain goes to further improving your chances of survival. That is the experience that actually feels more rewarding than any DING or stat distribution.

    So like I said, MMOs are often too ordinary and the best way to get out of this rut is make something very different. Something that requires a lot of learning as if it were a completely different game. Maybe even a very different character level system.
  • RatslaughRatslaugh Member Posts: 23
    Originally posted by logan400k

    Levels were not the only way to do things from the early days of role playing games. Runequest used a skill based system. In many ways it was totally different from D&D and Chaosium still uses its BRP (Basic Role Playing) system to this day for games.

     

    I am not sure how it would translate into an MMO where players demand instant gratification from the system to compel them forward. MMO's are a competitive sport now and we mine them like gold or drill them like oil until the precious substance is gone and then move on. So a system where skills moved up incrementally from use and a player had REAL choices about how to make their character and what path to follow might not be desirable by the game paying public. Right there is the crux of the issue: convincing the current slate of game payers i.e. those who spend the money on MMOs OR convincing different people to spend money on a non-traditional MMO.

    I played Runequest with my friends for almost 10 years from one campaign to another.

     

    Hehe, RQ and the world of Glorantha would make for one seriously funky MMORPG!  I'd play it.

  • AlverantAlverant Member RarePosts: 1,319

    I think the concept of levels needs to be reconsidered. In the days of PnP games it took a long time to gain a level. In an MMO, you can gain multiple levels in a night. One guy here even said you should be able to hit max level in a week (he said 20 game hours which can be done in a week; 3 hours M-Th, 4 hours Friday, and spilt the other 4 hours over the weekend). I disagree with that idea but to each their own.

    A level number is a quick indicator of power. A lv34 character vs a lv40 monster should be a tough if not impossible fight. The problem comes when you link a level just to experience and not factor in gear or incarnate abilities or whatever. So how about creating a point based system where your level is a combination of multiple factors. You could spend your points on combat and non-combat abilities and have 2 levels to reflect that. That way spending a point to increase an attack would boost your level the same way a piece of gear that does the same thing would. That would make gear the same as points.

    Non-combat leveling could involve tasks like crafting, skills, reputation, or other new things added to future MMOs. Perhaps you need to have a certain non-combat level to create certain items or access certain stores or use certain abilities. To use City of Villains as an example, perhaps you couldn't use the flyers until you reached non-com level 20 and had to use the ferries until then. Or maybe you would earn addition costume slots at different non-com levels.

    If combat is a focus of an MMO (and let's face it most are) then what content is available would still depend on your combat level. You won't be allowed to do some missions until you reach certain levels. You just have to give enough incentive to gain levels in both areas.

    Earth & Beyond did something like this with combat, exploration, and merchant levels.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Member UncommonPosts: 1,163
    Originally posted by logan400k

    Levels were not the only way to do things from the early days of role playing games. Runequest used a skill based system. In many ways it was totally different from D&D and Chaosium still uses its BRP (Basic Role Playing) system to this day for games.

     

    I am not sure how it would translate into an MMO where players demand instant gratification from the system to compel them forward. MMO's are a competitive sport now and we mine them like gold or drill them like oil until the precious substance is gone and then move on. So a system where skills moved up incrementally from use and a player had REAL choices about how to make their character and what path to follow might not be desirable by the game paying public. Right there is the crux of the issue: convincing the current slate of game payers i.e. those who spend the money on MMOs OR convincing different people to spend money on a non-traditional MMO.

    RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu did it right.  BRP was skill-based, so you gradually "leveled-up" your individual skills as you used them -- the more you used them, the better you became.  There was still a sense of progression without the big character level thing; you could even argue that you got more "dings" since you were always using a variety of skills and they were all increasing gradually -- Skyrim does this nicely.  

    The great thing about it was that your health never really increased (maybe thru magic), but that your Dodge and Parry skills become much better so you were much harder to hit as you progressed.  You picked up better armor, but that health meter stayed the same; you just got better at protecting yourself.  There still was also the chance (albeit low) that a lower level creature could hurt you with a lucky blow.  There certainly was a greater sense of danger in RuneQuest.

    The other side benefit of skill based was that it removed preoccupation with "your level" and put the focus back where it belonged: the content and story of the game.  

  • ET3DET3D Member UncommonPosts: 325
    When I was playing CoH levels were to me the things that kept me from the stories. I played mainly to experience the story arcs, and it was usually that I either outlevelled content (replayability be damned, I want to play all the stories!) or, more rarely, that I had to grind to get to the next level of stories. I killed many Paragon Protectors getting from level 38 to 40. took me months because it was so boring. If CoH wasn't so good for alts I might have stopped playing.
  • opposedcrowopposedcrow Member Posts: 55
    I agree that the concept of "gaining levels" needs a serious retooling, if not being done away with altogether.

    I've gotten to a point where I can't devote a lot of time to MMO's but I still enjoy the journey to an MMO's endgame (a.k.a. reaching the level cap) but when I see all these MMO's with lvl 70, 80, 90+ level caps, I just feel more discouraged than enthused.

    I understand many MMO players enjoy the grind, but what happens if the level caps of MMO's continue to increase? Will new players continue to flock to MMO's that sport lvl caps of 100? 120? 150?

    I know that grinding is an inherent part of the MMO formula, but perhaps there's a better way to get players to grind without forcing them to slog through hours upon hours upon hours of leveling their characters...
  • mmoskimmoski Member UncommonPosts: 282

    I actually think "levels" are a key factor to a game, but this depends on the game and the context in which the content is built for the "levels", some games get away with obfuscating  "levels" to other systems, and in some cases works amazingly well providing a broader game.

    Take a look at a typical PnP RPG which has levels, why does this work ? Well the core of this is that the GM can provide content for any level, this concept allows levels to work independently as a mechanism for player progression, playing a PnP game doesn't really limit or gate content, it's down to a person to provide the content for its players to make that game work.

    Where as in a typical level based MMO game, there are no gm's, and the role of levels is generally limited to the created content, this is the heart of many other issues within using levels. If you were to produce a game that didn't have any form of levels then, the key factor would be to ensure you have enough content that is scaled in "gameplay" difficulty, which may result in alienating players who are not skilled enough to enjoy that content.

    Replacing the GM ! The best approach yet to be visualized fully by any game is allowing players to create content for players, or creating systems that produce content based on the players levels/difficulty (procedurally).  These two things are a lot harder to achieve than what we see currently in most MMO's, but will be key to pushing MMO's into a new breed of gaming.

  • KeilaniKeilani Member Posts: 17
    I like levels. I think it has a big role in PVP. This way you can compete in PVP with players who have the same experience as you (levelwise). The lower levels cannot PVP with you so that gives less drama.
    About drama, when players who lose in PVP see your level, they cannot possibly say you cheated. It just means you spent more time perfectioning your character.
    Levels are also needed to give players the possibility to arrange the stats of their chars (or should there be a fixed amount of points at the very beginning? This idea I don't like).
    Gears are the answer to the content too but mainly on a almost end-game point.
    If there weren't no levels, why would people even have to fight mobs?
    I think it's more interesting to play a game with levels and level restricted gears. This way you look forward to using those gears when you reach the required level.
    I don't look at the level cap in games. But honestly, the higher level cap, the more grindbased the game is.
    There still are people who like grinding (like me), there's not much but they still exist. And I like seeing my level raise in game, means I am making some progress. And if there won't be levels, what requirements would the dungeons need for players to be able to fight in them? The amount of days spent in the game?
    I still think levels are needed in a game but raising the level cap to 200+ too fast kills the game because most players get demotivated and think it's an all way out grindfest. Level caps of 50 to 100 sound good. Or as you said "... When Dungeons and Dragons Online launched with “10 levels”, a vast majority of players wrote it off as not having enough content. The fact that each “level” was subdivided with bonuses and perks for each partial level achieved was something that they wouldn’t even know unless they played the game..."
    But completely removing levels system from a game? No, thank you, I'll pass on such a game then.
  • QuartiliusQuartilius Member Posts: 2

    For me, EVE Online tackled the idea of progression (no levels) perfectly. As your stats increase, you're able to equip better items and then eventually given enough stat increases you're able to fly a more powerful ship.

    But conversely, you never had to upgrade your ship. You could stay in the frigates for years, raising different skills to become a better frigate pilot.

    The game excels (I believe) because the low level ships are just as important to group & PvP dynamics as the higher level ships. It's the constant rock/paper/scissors of fast vs agile vs high dps vs utility etc

    The problem is, I can never get my head around how it would work in a fantasy MMO setting. The basics are there: you give a guy a sword, he can deal damage, he can either raise his ability to deal damage or raise his off hand strength to be able to hold a shield - he can now tank, badly, and can choose whether to become better at blocking or dodging or maybe start learning how to heal?

    But regular MMOs just don't seem to have the in-depth character variation of EVE. And frankly, it saddens me, because I'm not a huge fan of space sci-fi and would love to see a fantasy MMO of EVE's standards!

  • st3v3b0st3v3b0 Member UncommonPosts: 155
    Originally posted by Quartilius

    For me, EVE Online tackled the idea of progression (no levels) perfectly. As your stats increase, you're able to equip better items and then eventually given enough stat increases you're able to fly a more powerful ship.

    But conversely, you never had to upgrade your ship. You could stay in the frigates for years, raising different skills to become a better frigate pilot.

    The game excels (I believe) because the low level ships are just as important to group & PvP dynamics as the higher level ships. It's the constant rock/paper/scissors of fast vs agile vs high dps vs utility etc

    The problem is, I can never get my head around how it would work in a fantasy MMO setting. The basics are there: you give a guy a sword, he can deal damage, he can either raise his ability to deal damage or raise his off hand strength to be able to hold a shield - he can now tank, badly, and can choose whether to become better at blocking or dodging or maybe start learning how to heal?

    But regular MMOs just don't seem to have the in-depth character variation of EVE. And frankly, it saddens me, because I'm not a huge fan of space sci-fi and would love to see a fantasy MMO of EVE's standards!

    This is precisely how I feel and I think it could work in a non Sci-Fi MMO.  I hate how MMO's want to classify people right from the start.  Why not just give them various abilities and then build from there.  Based on what the player wants to use as weapons he/she can work up skill trees (similar to SWG and EVE) towards what he/she wants to learn.  Want to be a Rogue type class that wants to heal?  Perhaps offer a skill tree for each "role" and then once you get to a certain point you gain special abilities ONLY available to the combination of those two roles.  If someone wants to be a jack-of-all trades and be able to tank, heal and dps let them progress as they want.  Sure you may not be as powerful as any one or two roles, but you will have the ability to get as good with time.  Levels to me are a cop-out to make developers lives easier for telling players where to go based on their level, what gear they can wear.  Sure it is easy, but that does not make it right.

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