When person care about having greatly looking character in game then selling cosmetic items in cash shop is pay-2-win for h or she, same as selling gear is for other.
So am I wrong? What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?
The ability to buy items that gives an advantage with real money.
Exactly. And this is regardless if it can or not be obtained through the game. That excuse, that it is not Pay to WIn just because you can obtain it in the game, is just that, an excuse.
Originally posted by Rhoklaw If you need a response to your argument, try reading my last post. Then I'll await your rebuttal.
Here it is:
Originally posted by Rhoklaw why do people feel the desire to get the best gear as fast as possible?
Orly? All, or majority people have this desire? And how did you found that out?
No, such claim is water based. However, the fallacy is following:
While some people feel the urge to be competitive and get the gear fast as possible, it is not the game intention to create such environment. New dungeons are not sealed after first 5 groups raid them and claimed victors.
The dungeon stays open so everyone gets the gear, sooner or later.
It only supports my point I made earlier - competition is concept that is based upon the game, it isn't inherited.
You can compete about just anything, about any game but that does not mean all games are competitive.
Says the person doing exactly that. Your statement did not refute mine. If you for some reason honestly believe it did then feel free to clarify.
Not at all.
I say: I make an argument that games are played for different reasons, with different goals and purposes.
You reply: "Games are competitive by nature." - just plain statement with no backup nor relevance to any what I just said, only repeating fallacy you said before.
I say: In RPG games, the purpose isn't to beat NPC, the purpose is completion.
You reply: "without it there would never be a story told. Any time there is conflict, there is competition." - you just again repeat same ole ole that there is a "competition", extraordinary stupid statement.
I simply point out that because there is a war in the story does not make a story teller a warrior and that only case when there would be a competition is if that was a case of speech contest.
Your reply is: "No, but if the story is being told interactively you will have conflict with something."
Which I easily point out to fact that it does not change a thing about story telling not being a competition since story telling is still a story telling, regardless. Being it interactive or not.
And there we go again with your reply: "Second, of course it makes a difference.You can compete against..." - Yes, storz can contain a competition, not the story telling(the game itself). Sadly you cannot distinguish the difference and just keep repeating yourself over and over - pulling strawman after straman.
Yeah, tell me how it is to be dense please... I refuted your statement several times and you are not capable of any counter argument but screaming "there is a competition! does not matter where, how, whether it makes sense or is relevant but there is!"
Sorry, the world isn't all about competition, some people just enjoy the ride.
All cover it pretty well. This is exactly why some of these "games" have such debates about what they should be called. Right now they are called games simply because there are no better definition. Whether you play for the competition does not matter, they are inherent in games.
ps Great job changing what you said in an attempt to make me look bad, truly great trollin bro!
Originally posted by Rhoklaw
So, when you eliminate time to acquire said gear in an MMO by allowing some well off individual to bypass the in-game mechanics implemented simply by forking over cash instead. You have now given that player an in-game advantage in a competitive atmosphere.
Except that "advantage" rarely lasts long. Which is exactly why its a convience item and not power. You getting to max level and geared out in the first week just does not matter when the rest of the playerbase catches up to you in the next week or two.
Well by these standards every mmo inte the world is p2w, I bought gold in Wow and full epic after that. How is this different then a cash shop, except its a thrid party that gets the cash.
All games that don't have a cash shop you can always buy from a third party who will sell you gold or gear.
I am surprised this took so long to come up, but in WoW BoE gear is 2+ tiers below the best gear in the game.
I bought a character (actually just the leveling and the farming, took a while) with the max tier gear. Please comment on this.
Did blizzard provide you that service? no they DID not. OP is talking about publishers and/or DEVs selling power for money not gold farmers selling gold or power leveling service selling power level.you argument is invalid and borderline idiocy.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage. In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics. For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.
I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win". When did this become the definition become the norm?
If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency. It is still "Pay-to-Win". Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.
Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach. In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money. When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.
So am I wrong? What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?
"Pay to win" is the concept of the only way to have any chance to have good gear is to put money into the game. You may be able to get to the maximum level, but you won't get the highest level gear, the strongest weapons, the fastest mounts, some may even restrict your level, unless you pour some money into the game. the issue I can see with this, though, is they'll always come out with stronger, better items for you to by to get that edge. It may seem little at first, but then what started at 5-10 bucks a month can quickly become 30-40, maybe even more.
GW2 for example would not be considered pay to win. You can lvl up to 80 without any boosters fairly quickly if you have the time, the gear that you say you can get with real money...well...that's going through a few hoops as their gem shop doesn't sell gear. The only thing the gem shop sells as far as clothing is visuals. If you were to buy gear with real money, you'd have to by the gems with real money, then convert the gems to ingame currency. I believe Anet wants you to work to get your legendaries.
Can't say much about NW, however. I have dabled in it but it didn't catch my interest. They do seem to be more real money oriented, though, but they are completely free to play.
Originally posted by thinktank001If a player pays, then the game is not free.
That's not how it works.
Point made by poster above...
You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay prior accessing the service.
You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.
If someone makes a purchase from a cash shop is it still free? How is it that a game can be called F2P, but by most "data" collection reports, 10% of the people don't play the game at zero cost?
I just ask these question because there seems to be a double standard applied to mmorpgs. It is a simple fact, that a person's friend can take them out to eat at a restaurant, and they would never call that restaurant " free to eat ". Yet, here we are 221 posts later and players still continue to call some MMORPGs " free to play ".
Originally posted by thinktank001 If someone makes a purchase from a cash shop is it still free? How is it that a game can be called F2P, but by most "data" collection reports, 10% of the people don't play the game at zero cost? I just ask these question because there seems to be a double standard applied to mmorpgs. It is a simple fact, that a person's friend can take them out to eat at a restaurant, and they would never call that restaurant " free to eat ". Yet, here we are 221 posts later and players still continue to call some MMORPGs " free to play ".
Originally posted by GdemamiYou misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.
You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.
WOW and EVE offer a free 14 days and GW2 offers free weekends so that makes them both F2P, or did I also misunderstand this statement again?
You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.
WOW and EVE offer a free 14 days and GW2 offers free weekends so that makes them both F2P, or did I also misunderstand this statement again?
Aside from the sub in WoW (ignore that for the moment), do you need to buy the client after the trial for WoW and the weekend for GW2?
If not, then there is very little difference between f2p and a trial and an argument could be made that the only difference is time.
If you do have to buy the client then your argument is moot.
edit - my own opinion on GW2 is that you (not you specifically) paid for a f2p game, but that is a different argument
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Too many ppl worried about what others are doing in pve. If being first is how you win in pve...you are all losers every time you play. Maybe you should focus on better goals....like figuring out how to have fun instead of being a bunch of old ladies watching the neighbors.
Originally posted by thinktank001WOW and EVE offer a free 14 days and GW2 offers free weekends so that makes them both F2P, or did I also misunderstand this statement again?
Yes, you did.
Trial accounts aren't part of the payment model, it isn't how the game is supposed to receive money or generate income.
So am I wrong? What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?
The ability to buy items that gives an advantage with real money.
This. The definition of p2w hasn't changed.
The definition of advantage is what keeps changing.
Verily thou didst nail it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.
What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours. "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.
That is the reality with those asian f2p games right? Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up. But in reality how many people can do that?
It is only p2w when you can buy items that are more powerfull and cannot be obtained any other way.
What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours. "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.
That is the reality with those asian f2p games right? Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up. But in reality how many people can do that?
While I think there is a point of reasonable time requirements beyond which the drop rate is just not comparable i.e. buying god sword in cs or .0001% drop rate is IMO stupid and I'll call that p2w)
the first question to ask is:
"Do you care about keeping up?' I certainly don't.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay before accessing the service.
If someone makes a purchase from a cash shop is it still free? How is it that a game can be called F2P, but by most "data" collection reports, 10% of the people don't play the game at zero cost?
I just ask these question because there seems to be a double standard applied to mmorpgs. It is a simple fact, that a person's friend can take them out to eat at a restaurant, and they would never call that restaurant " free to eat ". Yet, here we are 221 posts later and players still continue to call some MMORPGs " free to play ".
Yeah, if you want to get technical they should be called 'Microtransaction based MMOs', but Free to Play sounds better to the masses.
Comments
Exactly. And this is regardless if it can or not be obtained through the game. That excuse, that it is not Pay to WIn just because you can obtain it in the game, is just that, an excuse.
My gaming blog
Here it is:
Orly? All, or majority people have this desire? And how did you found that out?
No, such claim is water based. However, the fallacy is following:
While some people feel the urge to be competitive and get the gear fast as possible, it is not the game intention to create such environment. New dungeons are not sealed after first 5 groups raid them and claimed victors.
The dungeon stays open so everyone gets the gear, sooner or later.
It only supports my point I made earlier - competition is concept that is based upon the game, it isn't inherited.
You can compete about just anything, about any game but that does not mean all games are competitive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure
Story cannot exist without conflict. You cannot be emotionally involved in a story without being involved in that conflict in some way. Conflict cannot occur without some form of competition. And that is just story. Relating to games specifically http://gamedesignconcepts.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/level-1-overview-what-is-a-game/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5jDspIC4hY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game
All cover it pretty well. This is exactly why some of these "games" have such debates about what they should be called. Right now they are called games simply because there are no better definition. Whether you play for the competition does not matter, they are inherent in games.
ps Great job changing what you said in an attempt to make me look bad, truly great trollin bro!
Except that "advantage" rarely lasts long. Which is exactly why its a convience item and not power. You getting to max level and geared out in the first week just does not matter when the rest of the playerbase catches up to you in the next week or two.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Um..........no. Sorry, does not work. Fallacy is fallacy regardless how many times you repeat it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure
Did you not take a writing class in school?
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Broad topic with a lot of opinions (when I was in school, it was Fiction that required conflict (non-fiction, obviously, does not)).
But for every lit professor, there's a hat in this ring. Better to just leave it be.
Did blizzard provide you that service? no they DID not. OP is talking about publishers and/or DEVs selling power for money not gold farmers selling gold or power leveling service selling power level.you argument is invalid and borderline idiocy.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Have you actually been following his garbage?
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
If a player pays, then the game is not free.
So if "a" player doesn't pay, then using the same logic, the game is free right?
"Pay to win" is the concept of the only way to have any chance to have good gear is to put money into the game. You may be able to get to the maximum level, but you won't get the highest level gear, the strongest weapons, the fastest mounts, some may even restrict your level, unless you pour some money into the game. the issue I can see with this, though, is they'll always come out with stronger, better items for you to by to get that edge. It may seem little at first, but then what started at 5-10 bucks a month can quickly become 30-40, maybe even more.
GW2 for example would not be considered pay to win. You can lvl up to 80 without any boosters fairly quickly if you have the time, the gear that you say you can get with real money...well...that's going through a few hoops as their gem shop doesn't sell gear. The only thing the gem shop sells as far as clothing is visuals. If you were to buy gear with real money, you'd have to by the gems with real money, then convert the gems to ingame currency. I believe Anet wants you to work to get your legendaries.
Can't say much about NW, however. I have dabled in it but it didn't catch my interest. They do seem to be more real money oriented, though, but they are completely free to play.
That's not how it works.
Point made by poster above...
You misunderstand the term. F2P means that payment model does not require any charges upfront, unlike P2P or B2P where you need to pay prior accessing the service.
....and yet again fallacy. One would think you get it already
If someone makes a purchase from a cash shop is it still free? How is it that a game can be called F2P, but by most "data" collection reports, 10% of the people don't play the game at zero cost?
I just ask these question because there seems to be a double standard applied to mmorpgs. It is a simple fact, that a person's friend can take them out to eat at a restaurant, and they would never call that restaurant " free to eat ". Yet, here we are 221 posts later and players still continue to call some MMORPGs " free to play ".
WOW and EVE offer a free 14 days and GW2 offers free weekends so that makes them both F2P, or did I also misunderstand this statement again?
Aside from the sub in WoW (ignore that for the moment), do you need to buy the client after the trial for WoW and the weekend for GW2?
If not, then there is very little difference between f2p and a trial and an argument could be made that the only difference is time.
If you do have to buy the client then your argument is moot.
edit - my own opinion on GW2 is that you (not you specifically) paid for a f2p game, but that is a different argument
Yes, you did.
Trial accounts aren't part of the payment model, it isn't how the game is supposed to receive money or generate income.
Verily thou didst nail it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What if the only way to obtain the item is to play 10,000 hours. "or" you can spend 1000$ to buy it.
That is the reality with those asian f2p games right? Sure if I play 15 hours a day everyday I can keep up. But in reality how many people can do that?
While I think there is a point of reasonable time requirements beyond which the drop rate is just not comparable i.e. buying god sword in cs or .0001% drop rate is IMO stupid and I'll call that p2w)
the first question to ask is:
"Do you care about keeping up?' I certainly don't.
Yeah, if you want to get technical they should be called 'Microtransaction based MMOs', but Free to Play sounds better to the masses.