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No lvl segragation FTW!

freejackmackfreejackmack feeport, MSPosts: 378Member

The lvling or progression process should not segregate you from your friends like in so many mmo games. Darkfall is 1 of the few games where you can run with anyone from day one and help out do anything and you can bring as many  people as you want. No 1 has to be left behind. That is what Darkfall does really well IMO. That is what mmo games should be like.

Sure it is fun to lvl and progress in lvl specific content but then when a new person enters the game why should I be segregated artificially from that person by lvl specific content? It does not lend well to the community aspect of the mmo experience and needs to end.

So many people complain that there is no one running this or that dungeon anymore in a wow style mmo and don't think about the fact that the game design segregates by lvl and so it is inevitable at some point in the games life span then that new players need to solo to max lvl and that just sucks! You might as well design a single player game that has mmo online play at max lvl. It would make more sense. The odds are against you if you are trying to find the same lvl characters to run with while lvling to max lvl. And even if you do, it is likely you 2 will not stay in the same lvl range or be playing in the same area for long.

Then there is the questing of traditional mmo's. What are the odds that someone is trying to do the same quest you are? And even if you find a person doing the same quest they likely are not at the same stage and leave group as soon as they complete the task  or never even consider grouping because the quest requires you to loot an item that you can not both have so it would take the exact same time and is not worth the effort to try to get the other person to group.

Stop playing lvl segregated designed mmo's and start playing games like Darkfall where you work together and have fun instead of suffering all the way to max lvl and then move on to the next lvl segregated mmo. And you wonder why your not having fun lol. Get a clue.

So well done Aventurine!

I'm going to post this in the mmorpg section too because I think people need to stop the cycle that is not helping them or the future of mmo's.

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Comments

  • MkilbrideMkilbride Hooksett, NHPosts: 637Member Uncommon

    http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Quotes+-+Character+Advancement

     

    Already exists. Not like it hasn't been done before. :P

     

     

    Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon

    I totally agree with OP. Another big thing is the way stats work. Your stats barely even double from day 1 to being maxed. As in you go from a couple hundred hp to about 500 depending on the class. That means that in a pinch you can use lower level pots. Basically it's just another example of how nothing is wasted in this game. There's never any area or any item that you use up and do away with in the first couple of days and then never have to look at again. Even lower level armor you can salvage for prowess and materials. 

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Quotes+-+Character+Advancement

     

    Already exists. Not like it hasn't been done before. :P

     

     

     

    This isn't how it works in DFUW though... like at all. You start out with everything except 4 spells/abilities. The progression is still vertical, it's just less dramatic and the game is more skill based.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,464Member Uncommon

    It really is not about Sandbox or Theme park,or levels none of the complaints we hear.

    it is about a good solid effort in designing a game.That means every single aspect looks like some thought was put into it.I usually spot so many areas in a game that just look like someone put one day into it and said go with it and hurry up doing it.

    Make no mistake DF does what it does because they had to .They have a very limited team and budget.

    I am sure that if Tasos had a large team and tons of money,you would see a totally different animal.point is ,don't be so quick to give a developer credit for doing what they were forced to do.Tasos said and knew he was on a limited time frame to get this game out,he said it  himself.

    I will use an example to show you it is not about levels or linear questing.

    FFXI old school.

    NO quest progression,so no xp for doing quests.

    you could play EVERY class on the same player,that means if you want to help a player at level 1,just hop on a new class and enjoy,you are still helping your own player and the new player,everyone happy.Furthermore they adopted a similar system to what EQ2 created,the MENTORING system.

    So in FFXI you still have levels,you still have new players,you still have quests,but there is no level segregation.Then you figure in the fact that the game was a must for grouping,you are always going to find players to help each other.FFXi has over 20+ classes all unique,none of the distinct over lap you see in most games,that have maybe 4/5/6 classes.With over 20 classes to play all on the same character,i am pretty sure you are set for a very long time.

    That  is the difference between good game design and bad game design.There is no need to start changing the TRINITY like GW2 claims,there is no need to lose levels,there is no need to have or have not linear questing,just design the game to work,it is as simple as that.

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • MkilbrideMkilbride Hooksett, NHPosts: 637Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JeremyBowyer
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Quotes+-+Character+Advancement

     

    Already exists. Not like it hasn't been done before. :P

     

     

     

    This isn't how it works in DFUW though... like at all. You start out with everything except 4 spells/abilities. The progression is still vertical, it's just less dramatic and the game is more skill based.

     

    I love anyone who says twitch combat is more skill based.

    Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Quotes+-+Character+Advancement

     

    Already exists. Not like it hasn't been done before. :P

     

     

    Did you just suggest that Camelot Unchained gets credit for doing something before a game that is already out?

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • MkilbrideMkilbride Hooksett, NHPosts: 637Member Uncommon
    No? Where did you read that?

    Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member

    Couldn't agree less. 

    Some games of certain design could have that. DFUW is one of them because it focuses so heavily on PvP. If you want anything with meaningful PvE you have to have as much character progression and segregation as possible imho to keep a sense of character progression.

    Where is the fun in being able to do all the content from day 1? Working you way through all the content to get to enjoy the next thing is so much better. There is no meaning to anything you do if you can do everything.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by freejackmack

    The lvling or progression process should not segregate you from your friends like in so many mmo games. Darkfall is 1 of the few games where you can run with anyone from day one and help out do anything and you can bring as many  people as you want. No 1 has to be left behind. That is what Darkfall does really well IMO. That is what mmo games should be like.

    i never liked DF or the new DF2 but GW2 also has this system and i love it alot more because of that.

    image
  • DawnDarkDawnDark AmsterdamPosts: 21Member

    Progression without levels can be meaningful in PvE. But it is no longer based on a number in a database. The developer makes the encounters more difficult, and you become a better player.

    Defiance is a good example, when I first started I really sucked at it then I got better. I thought that maybe I was actually leveling my weapons and shield that I would be invisible, but going back to the starter zone told me otherwise. The enemies are just as hard to kill there as it is further on in the game, the enemies do get smarter further on, needing you to become better at moving around and picking targets in the correct order.

    This is what gaming should be about, you the player progressing through the content. Not just the character progressing based on a number in a database.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DawnDark

    Progression without levels can be meaningful in PvE. But it is no longer based on a number in a database. The developer makes the encounters more difficult, and you become a better player.

    Defiance is a good example, when I first started I really sucked at it then I got better. I thought that maybe I was actually leveling my weapons and shield that I would be invisible, but going back to the starter zone told me otherwise. The enemies are just as hard to kill there as it is further on in the game, the enemies do get smarter further on, needing you to become better at moving around and picking targets in the correct order.

    This is what gaming should be about, you the player progressing through the content. Not just the character progressing based on a number in a database.

    +1

    image
  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member
    But Defiance is a shooter though. For me personally it would be a huge problem if the game would feel too easy because I am rather good with shooters. It is actually a good reason I would welcome progression.... 
  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mkilbride
    Originally posted by JeremyBowyer
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Quotes+-+Character+Advancement

     

    Already exists. Not like it hasn't been done before. :P

     

     

     

    This isn't how it works in DFUW though... like at all. You start out with everything except 4 spells/abilities. The progression is still vertical, it's just less dramatic and the game is more skill based.

     

    I love anyone who says twitch combat is more skill based.

     

    I love you too? It is more skill based. Games that rely less on mechanical skill and more on theory aren't as impressive because it's just about how much you know about the game and not any kind of inherent skill.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by JeremyBowyer
    Originally posted by Mkilbride Originally posted by JeremyBowyer Originally posted by Mkilbride http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Quotes+-+Character+Advancement   Already exists. Not like it hasn't been done before. :P    
      This isn't how it works in DFUW though... like at all. You start out with everything except 4 spells/abilities. The progression is still vertical, it's just less dramatic and the game is more skill based.
      I love anyone who says twitch combat is more skill based.
     

    I love you too? It is more skill based. Games that really less on mechanical skill and more on theory aren't as impressive because it's just about how much you know about the game and not any kind of inherent skill.




    Skill is a measure of how well something is done. If someone is good with WoW's combat, that's skill. If someone is good at DF combat, that's skill too. DF's combat does not require more skill than WoW's combat, just a different type of skill.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

    Originally posted by Mkilbride http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Quotes+-+Character+Advancement   Already exists. Not like it hasn't been done before. :P    
      This isn't how it works in DFUW though... like at all. You start out with everything except 4 spells/abilities. The progression is still vertical, it's just less dramatic and the game is more skill based.
      I love anyone who says twitch combat is more skill based.
     

     

    I love you too? It is more skill based. Games that really less on mechanical skill and more on theory aren't as impressive because it's just about how much you know about the game and not any kind of inherent skill.



    Skill is a measure of how well something is done. If someone is good with WoW's combat, that's skill. If someone is good at DF combat, that's skill too. DF's combat does not require more skill than WoW's combat, just a different type of skill.

     

    Some games simply require more knowledge to be better at them. By your definition, nothing could ever be more skillful than anything else.

     

    The point is that a talented player would have a better chance beating more experienced, higher level player in dfuw than they would in a game like WoW. And that's because of how hard the combat is.

  • freejackmackfreejackmack feeport, MSPosts: 378Member

    Don't get me wrong GW2 did some great stuff and has lvl segregated content too so you can have both but if you rely an lvl segregation in your mmo you have created a population problem inherently in your design and are setting yourself up to fail.

    People won't even try your mmo if you have no end game because in a traditional lvl segregated mmo that is where you get to play with people. There is less lvl segregation though there is a gear quality segregation and a reputation segregation in most. Still you play with people more.

    In DF you play with people all the time and there is no reason to solo unless that is what you want or you just can't get along with anyone because your an inbred tool.
     But that is evidence of good game design if the only reason you solo is because no one can stand being around you and you constantly disrespect others and their stuff and never consider the golden rule; usually because you never heard of the golden rule being raised as an inbred tool ;}

    But that's cool we need tools to pvp against.

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by geel

    Couldn't agree less. 

    Some games of certain design could have that. DFUW is one of them because it focuses so heavily on PvP. If you want anything with meaningful PvE you have to have as much character progression and segregation as possible imho to keep a sense of character progression.

    Where is the fun in being able to do all the content from day 1? Working you way through all the content to get to enjoy the next thing is so much better. There is no meaning to anything you do if you can do everything.

      I heartfully disagree. We have been trained to believe this over the years, that the only way we feel accomplished is by running a level gear grinding treadmill. Some of my more satisfying moments in a game have been in exploring. In many MMOs where you can turn off the xp bar I usually remove it, because it becomes too much of a focus in most. I want to enjoy the journey and the story of a game, not that little bar that becomes the equivalent of the scales to obsessed dieters.

    image

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by geel

    Couldn't agree less. 

    Some games of certain design could have that. DFUW is one of them because it focuses so heavily on PvP. If you want anything with meaningful PvE you have to have as much character progression and segregation as possible imho to keep a sense of character progression.

    Where is the fun in being able to do all the content from day 1? Working you way through all the content to get to enjoy the next thing is so much better. There is no meaning to anything you do if you can do everything.

    That's the bad kind of game design. It's basically them saying "We can't make a game that's fun to play, so we'll make it all about 'character progression' so you're hooked on the game by way of the carrot on a stick method"

  • geelgeel GroningenPosts: 90Member

    Then that's a fundamental difference between our styles. I have always liked the games most that removed a lot of content and just focused on loot and progression. This was a reason to play to me. Hunting items is where the fun is to me. Getting stronger is fun. Add good PvP that interacts with these 2 facets and I'm a happy camper.

    I admit GW2 was a LOT of fun. But only while it lasted. The game is beautiful and I enjoyed getting to lvl 80 with it. But then BOOM I realize it's completely not what I was looking for. And then it hit me. I play GW2 like it's a co-op RPG game or a sp RPG. Even though it doesn't have that quality. I want to play MMORPG's like MMORPG's. (L2, UO, EQ2, AION did some things right but gamebreaking things wrong)

  • BrownAleBrownAle fantasyland, MEPosts: 399Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

    Originally posted by Mkilbride http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Quotes+-+Character+Advancement   Already exists. Not like it hasn't been done before. :P    
      This isn't how it works in DFUW though... like at all. You start out with everything except 4 spells/abilities. The progression is still vertical, it's just less dramatic and the game is more skill based.
      I love anyone who says twitch combat is more skill based.
     

     

    I love you too? It is more skill based. Games that really less on mechanical skill and more on theory aren't as impressive because it's just about how much you know about the game and not any kind of inherent skill.



    Skill is a measure of how well something is done. If someone is good with WoW's combat, that's skill. If someone is good at DF combat, that's skill too. DF's combat does not require more skill than WoW's combat, just a different type of skill.

     

     

     

    Its is much, MUCH harder to be good at darkfall than it is to be good at a themepark.  Skill ceiling is miles higher in this game.

     

    Don't believe me? Try out the game, do some duels with some decent players, jump into a mob spawn with multiple farmers and try to kill them all.

     

    Ive seen people with 5k prowress drop 30k players and ive seen 50k players drop full parties of players.  Having the gear and the prowress gives you an advantage but none of that matters if you don't know what you are doing.

     

     

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    Skill is a measure of how well something is done. If someone is good with WoW's combat, that's skill. If someone is good at DF combat, that's skill too. DF's combat does not require more skill than WoW's combat, just a different type of skill.
     

    I agree with what you are saying here except for the last sentence; I have played both games extensively, and the skill needed to play Darkfall is not even comparable to that which is needed in WOW. It's like nigh and day. This does not change fact that it still takes skill to play WOW.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by geel

    Couldn't agree less. 

    Some games of certain design could have that. DFUW is one of them because it focuses so heavily on PvP. If you want anything with meaningful PvE you have to have as much character progression and segregation as possible imho to keep a sense of character progression.

    Where is the fun in being able to do all the content from day 1? Working you way through all the content to get to enjoy the next thing is so much better. There is no meaning to anything you do if you can do everything.

    This is a misnomer. While you can do everthing on day 1, you most definitely do it better later on.  Dark falls character progression is great.

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon
    People who think skill is somehow tied in with reflexes should explore chess, magic the gathering, the civilization games.

    Imho it takes infinitely more skill to be a top ten magic player than to be good at any mmo.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by itchmon
    People who think skill is somehow tied in with reflexes should explore chess, magic the gathering, the civilization games.

    Imho it takes infinitely more skill to be a top ten magic player than to be good at any mmo.

    I had a killer white weeny deck...

  • JupstoJupsto englandPosts: 2,087Member

    debating twitch vs strategy on darkfall forums is ironic, since darkfall is one of the extremely few games I've played which you need mix of both. its also partly why the game appeals to a smaller demographic, imo.

    people who says "oh its just quake" probably just don't like it because they have no twitch skills, there is definitely strategy in this game in both small scale pvp and server wars. (altho it may lean slightly more on twitch)

    I've always been well above average in FPS/twtich games, but was never a great DF1 player because I was not so good at the thinking on the fly and remembering so many bindings/abilities (stratergy).

    the new class system means there is less strategy in 1v1 since its somewhat rock/paper/scissors, and alot less abilities to remember/keybinds. but on the flip side the group vs group combat does have more depth and strategy than darkfall 1. And also means less player vs keyboard, ie you don't need macros/naga to be good.

    My blog: image

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