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If Doom were released today:
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldonLove Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Originally posted by nilden It depends on the topic of the Rose Colored glasses. Just because I remember my years in Everquest fondly doesn't mean I think long corpse runs are a good idea.
I agree with you. The difference is when people pull the rose colored glasses argument, they mean the entire game as a whole. They tell us we should go back and play the original if it was so great, etc.
I dont think any original EQ vet would truly come out and say they want EVERY aspect of EQ to be returned to modern MMO's. The problem is that every aspect has gone to the complete opposite side of the pendulum because IMO developers and players have a complete lack of vision. There are also some societal influences, but, yeah.
Originally posted by Hrimnir If Doom were released today:
Because the rose colored glasses were about that rather than about how we felt when playing doom for the first time
Originally posted by Hrimnir Originally posted by nilden It depends on the topic of the Rose Colored glasses. Just because I remember my years in Everquest fondly doesn't mean I think long corpse runs are a good idea.
I think it works the other way around more often. People look back to a game like EQ for example and remember what it felt like to play such an amazing game at the time. They had so much fun and so many amazing times compared to what they experience today, they believe that it's because todays games are crap or whatever. But really it was just because it was their first raw MMORPG experience, not because of some amazing game design decisions. That raw attachment tends to act as a filter for every game you experience afterwards.
In the end, when someone claims that someone is suffering from rose colored glasses, they are really just saying that they are biased based on their nostalgia. I think that's pretty common. I know I love Ninja Turtles the Arcade Game and F-Zero, but hopefully I am able to recognize how far we've come no matter how great I thought the earlier days of gaming were.
Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Hrimnir Originally posted by nilden It depends on the topic of the Rose Colored glasses. Just because I remember my years in Everquest fondly doesn't mean I think long corpse runs are a good idea.
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Originally posted by HrimnirIf Doom were released today:
Watched the video, Still don't understand your argument.
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Originally posted by Nitth Originally posted by Hrimnir If Doom were released today:
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
He means many MMOs today railroad the player down a fairly linear path, while older MMOs were more nonlinear in their constructs.
A typical level in Doom typically allows some freedom in terms of which order you visit the various areas. The video shows a new version of that game where it's been changed to railroad the player down a linear path. It's a classic game with much of the features old school gamers hate about new games. Railroading, cutscenes and handholding designed to stop the player from thinking on his own with a dash of DLC greed.
So it's a parallel to the MMO scene. Exploration before and railroading (and handholding) now. The video is directly targeted at Call of Duty of course, but some aspects compare well to the MMO scene. If you've never played the original Doom it will of course be difficult to see the connection.
Sometimes things really were better back then.
Originally posted by AxxarHe means many MMOs today railroad the player down a fairly linear path, while older MMOs were more nonlinear in their constructs.A typical level in Doom typically allows some freedom in terms of which order you visit the various areas. The video shows a new version of that game where it's been changed to railroad the player down a linear path.So it's a parallel to the MMO scene. Exploration before and railroading (and handholding) now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The problem is 200k subs back then was a massive success. It's a total failure now. ( by gamer/investor standards )
The budgets got bigger and the games went after the mass market not the old school mmo gamer. The people that play these games today and don't sit on forums complaining don't want the same games as we used to play. The people that used to enjoy spending a month working for something got replaced by people who think if you don't give it to me when I log on I'll go play something else!
There are more of them and they have more money ( as a group :P ) so ...they get what they want.
I don't know about that. I think if Doom or other classic games were redone but put out exactly as they were, there'd be keen interest at the start and then it would experience total fall-off, probably for ultimately having shallow, unfulfilling gameplay.
I think nostalgia goggles are a better term to use and I still think that people have a massive problem with it. I won't deny that there's merit to saying "Oh there's too much hand-holding kid gloves BS going on with games nowadays" but if you're still hopping from one game to the next, feeling unsatisfied, empty and constantly reflecting on all those cool times you had with your friends in that one multi-player coop game/mmo... Well, maybe the problem isn't the games.
yeah except we're not talking about shooters. we're talking about MMOs. and frankly, yes, many people do have rose tinted glasses, which makes sense and is understandable. however, there is a reason you don't play the games you used to, no matter how much you loved them. some might say "oh they made changes i didn't like," but honestly, the changes probably weren't that big. in all likelihood the changes were just maybe the icing on the done-with-this-game cake.
so yeah. all i can say to people who spend all their time wishing for the good old days is "sorry that the industry has been not to your liking for the last decade." but honestly, every time anything changes in this world someone says "oh it was better back in the day" or "it'll kill x industry!" but these changes haven't, and they won't. and as for things being better? questionable. sure maybe you liked them more, but does that make them better? not necessarily.
in summation: i'm sorry the halcyon days of your youth have passed, but oddly enough, the things you're complaining about are forming someone else's happy childhood memories. and if you can't handle that, and that their memories are going to be different from your own, well.... go away?
Originally posted by DamonVile The problem is 200k subs back then was a massive success. It's a total failure now. ( by gamer/investor standards )
And yet that is still more subs than just about any MMORPG has managed to retain in the last 8 years.
AoC would kill for that number of subs. So would LotRO.
IF you don't spend 50 million advertising everywhere, trying to outWoW WoW, and maybe set realistic expectations, 200k can still be a resounding success, and something to build off of. Look at Eve. Darkfall.
The video is basically bringing up the following points:
1. The FPS genre is dominated by a style which emphasizes a militarized viewpoint. Everything is an Ops mission.
2. Quest markers are abound. Don't need to figure where to go, the game will tell you.
3. Every game is the prophesied savior of its genre, rather than just being a game worth playing. By proxy, each genre is somehow damned until its salvation has been delivered.
4. DLC are everywhere and games are not released complete.
Originally posted by Axxar I think especially a game like Doom could be redone with current graphics and be a big success simply as a function of its gameplay being vastly superior to many modern shooters.
Can I have a look at your glasses for a second?
Doom sort of sucked IMO, Rise of the Triad was better
Anyway, first mmo experience (like other new experiences) evoke an emotional response, and strong emotions create powerful and lasting memories. This is the "rose glasses effect"
As newness of virtual worlds wears off subsequent MMOs evoke a lesser emotional response, so we don't form as strong of an association.
The most amazing ooh and aah feelings for me were during EQ1, no MMO has ever matched that sense of wonder.
But i am not going to discount the awesomeness of newer games, as I play them for fun now, I am not trying to relive that feeling anymore, my kid, my wife and my friends provide plenty of those
At some point I grew up, relationships and my family, thats my new sense of wonder.
haha awesome video..
Aha. Look at you all.. failing to realise that multiplayer has taken the place of nonsense single player campaigns.
Instead of going around shooting AI monsters that aren't very good, you can do almost exactly the same thing but against other players that offer up some challenge. Now I know you all like to reside in your little bubbles, telling yourselves you're as good as you think you are (even when reality makes it clear you're not), but that's unhealthy.
It's like the EQ nonsense. All the nostalgia from these so called vets seems to be focused around bringing back gameplay elements that obfuscate the differences in skill and dedication between players. They use buzzwords like "exploration" and "living worlds", or whatever, but in reality it's all just focused around insulating one person from the realities presented to them by other people. "Remove instanced PvP and replace it with world PvP"; why? "Because it's better." No, it's because it allows you to team up with 6 other players so that you can kill that one player you saw an hour ago farming boars. That's fun and all, but it has nothing to do with it being better than instanced PvP and more to do with it allowing us to bias the terms of engagement in our own favour. It's the same reason people moan about teams being able to queue against pugs in PvP; team players make pugs look bad, pugs don't want to look (or think they are) bad, teams are moved to their own platform. "It's fair". That's debatable, but fundamentally it has bugger all to do with fairness and more to do with people just wanting to say they're really good at X thing whilst not actually putting any effort into that thing.
The best thing for you all to do is realise that the days where you could easily insulate your selves from truth and reason ended in 1998.
Originally posted by Magnetia Originally posted by Nitth Originally posted by Hrimnir If Doom were released today:
I can kind of see his point, but it's not because the games got dumbed down. In both genres (FPS and MMO), the focus of the gameplay shifted over time.
Doom was about making it through a maze, finding the exit and getting to the next maze. Kill count was just a way to get bonus points in the process. Modern shooters are rarely about discovering where the exit is and mostly about the kill count. Doom was more of a puzzle game and the modern shooter is more of a competitive or objective completion game.
Many of the early MMOs were about interacting with other players in a virtual world.
The gear treadmill and the guidance to max level are not top priority or even irrelevant in the above titles. Of the ones that were linear levelling games, the challenge (either through penalty or grind) was getting to the end, however newer MMOs have made reaching the end an expectation. The gameplay in modern MMOs is designed to bring you to the end not to prevent you from reaching it.
In that light, I can see where he's going with that video.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by ShakyMoLol doom is "shallow"But cod 37;more manshoot behind cover isn't?