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Perfect video to explain why the "Rose colored glasses" argument is horse crap.

HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon

If Doom were released today:

 

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

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Comments

  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon
    It depends on the topic of the Rose Colored glasses. Just because I remember my years in Everquest fondly doesn't mean I think long corpse runs are a good idea.

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nilden
    It depends on the topic of the Rose Colored glasses. Just because I remember my years in Everquest fondly doesn't mean I think long corpse runs are a good idea.

    I agree with you.  The difference is when people pull the rose colored glasses argument, they mean the entire game as a whole.  They tell us we should go back and play the original if it was so great, etc.

    I dont think any original EQ vet would truly come out and say they want EVERY aspect of EQ to be returned to modern MMO's.  The problem is that every aspect has gone to the complete opposite side of the pendulum because IMO developers and players have a complete lack of vision.  There are also some societal influences, but, yeah.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,481Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    If Doom were released today:

     

     Because the rose colored glasses were about that rather than about how we felt when playing doom for the first time

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by nilden
    It depends on the topic of the Rose Colored glasses. Just because I remember my years in Everquest fondly doesn't mean I think long corpse runs are a good idea.

    I agree with you.  The difference is when people pull the rose colored glasses argument, they mean the entire game as a whole.  They tell us we should go back and play the original if it was so great, etc.

    I dont think any original EQ vet would truly come out and say they want EVERY aspect of EQ to be returned to modern MMO's.  The problem is that every aspect has gone to the complete opposite side of the pendulum because IMO developers and players have a complete lack of vision.  There are also some societal influences, but, yeah.

    I think it works the other way around more often. People look back to a game like EQ for example and remember what it felt like to play such an amazing game at the time. They had so much fun and so many amazing times compared to what they experience today, they believe that it's because todays games are crap or whatever. But really it was just because it was their first raw MMORPG experience, not because of some amazing game design decisions. That raw attachment tends to act as a filter for every game you experience afterwards.

     

    In the end, when someone claims that someone is suffering from rose colored glasses, they are really just saying that they are biased based on their nostalgia. I think that's pretty common. I know I love Ninja Turtles the Arcade Game and F-Zero, but hopefully I am able to recognize how far we've come no matter how great I thought the earlier days of gaming were.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by nilden
    It depends on the topic of the Rose Colored glasses. Just because I remember my years in Everquest fondly doesn't mean I think long corpse runs are a good idea.

    I agree with you.  The difference is when people pull the rose colored glasses argument, they mean the entire game as a whole.  They tell us we should go back and play the original if it was so great, etc.

    I dont think any original EQ vet would truly come out and say they want EVERY aspect of EQ to be returned to modern MMO's.  The problem is that every aspect has gone to the complete opposite side of the pendulum because IMO developers and players have a complete lack of vision.  There are also some societal influences, but, yeah.

    I think it works the other way around more often. People look back to a game like EQ for example and remember what it felt like to play such an amazing game at the time. They had so much fun and so many amazing times compared to what they experience today, they believe that it's because todays games are crap or whatever. But really it was just because it was their first raw MMORPG experience, not because of some amazing game design decisions. That raw attachment tends to act as a filter for every game you experience afterwards.

     

    In the end, when someone claims that someone is suffering from rose colored glasses, they are really just saying that they are biased based on their nostalgia. I think that's pretty common. I know I love Ninja Turtles the Arcade Game and F-Zero, but hopefully I am able to recognize how far we've come no matter how great I thought the earlier days of gaming were.

    I hate racing games always have, but F-zero ruled!

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    If Doom were released today: 

    Watched the video, Still don't understand your argument.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • therealeasytherealeasy NY, NYPosts: 36Member
     .
  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    If Doom were released today:

     

     


     

    Watched the video, Still don't understand your argument.

    Same

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • He means many MMOs today railroad the player down a fairly linear path, while older MMOs were more nonlinear in their constructs.

    A typical level in Doom typically allows some freedom in terms of which order you visit the various areas. The video shows a new version of that game where it's been changed to railroad the player down a linear path. It's a classic game with much of the features old school gamers hate about new games. Railroading, cutscenes and handholding designed to stop the player from thinking on his own with a dash of DLC greed.

    So it's a parallel to the MMO scene. Exploration before and railroading (and handholding) now. The video is directly targeted at Call of Duty of course, but some aspects compare well to the MMO scene. If you've never played the original Doom it will of course be difficult to see the connection.

    Sometimes things really were better back then.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Axxar
    He means many MMOs today railroad the player down a fairly linear path, while older MMOs were more nonlinear in their constructs.

    A typical level in Doom typically allows some freedom in terms of which order you visit the various areas. The video shows a new version of that game where it's been changed to railroad the player down a linear path.

    So it's a parallel to the MMO scene. Exploration before and railroading (and handholding) now.



    What does that have to do with Rose Colored Glasses? I could see it if video games were composed of a single aspect of game play where the player either explored or followed a path, but that's not the case. There are many other aspects of game play.

    Not only that, comparing exploration vs breadcrumb trail in terms of which is better is a subjective comparison. One isn't better than the other, a player will prefer one over the other. It will usually depend on the game they are playing so it's not even going to be consistent for a single player, much less a large group.

    ** ** **

    And furthermore, games rarely consist of just exploration or just breadcrumb trails. There's usually a combination of the two in every game. Even in games based around the breadcrumb trail idea, exploration can play a role in the game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • "Rose-coloured glasses" typically refers to you looking back at something and because of sentimental reasons you think it's better than it really was.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Actually I would live a modern fps with doom style gameplay.

    Loads of action
    Fast moving
    Huge swarms of enemies
    Carry loads of different guns
    Big maps with lots of secrets and detours

    Would sure play the hell out of that unlike these modern cod style corridors and cutscenes fps.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    The problem is 200k subs back then was a massive success. It's a total failure now. ( by gamer/investor standards )

    The budgets got bigger and the games went after the mass market not the old school mmo gamer. The people that play these games today and don't sit on forums complaining don't want the same games as we used to play. The people that used to enjoy spending a month working for something got replaced by people who think if you don't give it to me when I log on I'll go play something else!

    There are more of them and they have more money ( as a group :P ) so ...they get what they want.

  • shalissarshalissar Pohjois-PohjanmaaPosts: 298Member Uncommon

    I don't know about that. I think if Doom or other classic games were redone but put out exactly as they were, there'd be keen interest at the start and then it would experience total fall-off, probably for ultimately having shallow, unfulfilling gameplay.

    I think nostalgia goggles are a better term to use and I still think that people have a massive problem with it. I won't deny that there's merit to saying "Oh there's too much hand-holding kid gloves BS going on with games nowadays" but if you're still hopping from one game to the next, feeling unsatisfied, empty and constantly reflecting on all those cool times you had with your friends in that one multi-player coop game/mmo... Well, maybe the problem isn't the games.

  • atticusbcatticusbc Posts: 1,069Member Uncommon

    yeah except we're not talking about shooters. we're talking about MMOs. and frankly, yes, many people do have rose tinted glasses, which makes sense and is understandable. however, there is a reason you don't play the games you used to, no matter how much you loved them. some might say "oh they made changes i didn't like," but honestly, the changes probably weren't that big. in all likelihood the changes were just maybe the icing on the done-with-this-game cake.

    so yeah. all i can say to people who spend all their time wishing for the good old days is "sorry that the industry has been not to your liking for the last decade." but honestly, every time anything changes in this world someone says "oh it was better back in the day" or "it'll kill x industry!" but these changes haven't, and they won't. and as for things being better? questionable. sure maybe you liked them more, but does that make them better? not necessarily.

    in summation: i'm sorry the halcyon days of your youth have passed, but oddly enough, the things you're complaining about are forming someone else's happy childhood memories. and if you can't handle that, and that their memories are going to be different from your own, well.... go away?

  • I think especially a game like Doom could be redone with current graphics and be a big success simply as a function of its gameplay being vastly superior to many modern shooters.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    The problem is 200k subs back then was a massive success. It's a total failure now. ( by gamer/investor standards )

    And yet that is still more subs than just about any MMORPG has managed to retain in the last 8 years.

    AoC would kill for that number of subs. So would LotRO.

     

    IF you don't spend 50 million advertising everywhere, trying to outWoW WoW, and maybe set realistic expectations, 200k can still be a resounding success, and something to build off of. Look at Eve. Darkfall.

  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    If Doom were released today:

     

     


     

    Watched the video, Still don't understand your argument.

    The video is basically bringing up the following points:

    1. The FPS genre is dominated by a style which emphasizes a militarized viewpoint. Everything is an Ops mission.

    2. Quest markers are abound. Don't need to figure where to go, the game will tell you.

    3. Every game is the prophesied savior of its genre, rather than just being a game worth playing. By proxy, each genre is somehow damned until its salvation has been delivered. 

    4. DLC are everywhere and games are not released complete.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Lol doom is "shallow"

    But cod 37;more manshoot behind cover isn't?
  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member
    Originally posted by Axxar
    I think especially a game like Doom could be redone with current graphics and be a big success simply as a function of its gameplay being vastly superior to many modern shooters.

    Can I have a look at your glasses for a second? :)

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,564Member Uncommon

    Doom sort of sucked IMO, Rise of the Triad was better :)

    Anyway, first mmo experience (like other new experiences) evoke an emotional response, and strong emotions create powerful and lasting memories. This is the "rose glasses effect"

    As newness of virtual worlds wears off subsequent MMOs evoke a lesser emotional response, so we don't form as strong of an association.

    The most amazing ooh and aah feelings for me were during EQ1, no MMO has ever matched that sense of wonder.

    But i am not going to discount the awesomeness of newer games, as I play them for fun now, I am not trying to relive that feeling anymore, my kid, my wife and my friends provide plenty of those :)

    At some point I grew up, relationships and my family, thats my new sense of wonder.

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir

    If Doom were released today:

     

    haha awesome video..

     

     

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member

    Aha. Look at you all.. failing to realise that multiplayer has taken the place of nonsense single player campaigns.

    Instead of going around shooting AI monsters that aren't very good, you can do almost exactly the same thing but against other players that offer up some challenge. Now I know you all like to reside in your little bubbles, telling yourselves you're as good as you think you are (even when reality makes it clear you're not), but that's unhealthy.

    It's like the EQ nonsense. All the nostalgia from these so called vets seems to be focused around bringing back gameplay elements that obfuscate the differences in skill and dedication between players. They use buzzwords like "exploration" and "living worlds", or whatever, but in reality it's all just focused around insulating one person from the realities presented to them by other people. "Remove instanced PvP and replace it with world PvP"; why? "Because it's better." No, it's because it allows you to team up with 6 other players so that you can kill that one player you saw an hour ago farming boars. That's fun and all, but it has nothing to do with it being better than instanced PvP and more to do with it allowing us to bias the terms of engagement in our own favour. It's the same reason people moan about teams being able to queue against pugs in PvP; team players make pugs look bad, pugs don't want to look (or think they are) bad, teams are moved to their own platform. "It's fair". That's debatable, but fundamentally it has bugger all to do with fairness and more to do with people just wanting to say they're really good at X thing whilst not actually putting any effort into that thing.

    The best thing for you all to do is realise that the days where you could easily insulate your selves from truth and reason ended in 1998.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,674Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Magnetia
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    If Doom were released today:

     

     


     

    Watched the video, Still don't understand your argument.

    Same

     

    I can kind of see his point, but it's not because the games got dumbed down. In both genres (FPS and MMO), the focus of the gameplay shifted over time.

    Doom was about making it through a maze, finding the exit and getting to the next maze. Kill count was just a way to get bonus points in the process. Modern shooters are rarely about discovering where the exit is and mostly about the kill count. Doom was more of a puzzle game and the modern shooter is more of a competitive or objective completion game.

    Many of the early MMOs were about interacting with other players in a virtual world.

     

    • Furcadia
    • The Realm
    • A Tale in the Desert    
    • Hostile Space
    • Ultima Online
    • Clan Lord     
    • Ogre Island  
    • Shattered Galaxy
    • Runescape
    • Vendetta Online
    • DarkSpace
    • There
    • Planet Entropia
    • EVE Online
    • PlanetSide
    • Disney's Toontown Online
    • Second Life
    • Puzzle Pirates

    The gear treadmill and the guidance to max level are not top priority or even irrelevant in the above titles. Of the ones that were linear levelling games, the challenge (either through penalty or grind) was getting to the end, however newer MMOs have made reaching the end an expectation. The gameplay in modern MMOs is designed to bring you to the end not to prevent you from reaching it.

     

    In that light, I can see where he's going with that video.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Lol doom is "shallow"But cod 37;more manshoot behind cover isn't?

    Doom is shallow. It is the least common denominator of FPS.

    Can't really comment on CoD, since I'm not a player, but compare Doom to Bioshock or Bioshock Infinite and even ignoring the story, there are some base game play mechanics that are deeper in the newer shooters. Doom could have had a story as deep as Bioshock, and could have included some of the deeper game play mechanics but it didn't. Doom, compared to modern shooters is a shallow game.

    Doom is still a great game though. I played the ever loving cr@p out of that game. The core of my early gaming experience was Doom. It forms the framework on which all other FPS games are based. Id might be able to release Doom itself with updated graphics and sell a lot of copies but it would sell because it's Doom and that carries a lot of nostalgia, not because of the game play. I have no illusions about someone releasing a Doom clone in today's climate; it would not do well. There have been games that are more or less Doom clones with updated graphics and they do not do well. Unless it's Doom, it's doomed. heh.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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