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All that money, for SWTOR?

GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member

Rumored and estimated $200,000,000 development budget for this game.

At it's height lets say 2 million people purchased, $50 a pop was it? Let's throw a reasonable 25% reduction in the profits for the IP itself...

$50-$12.50 = $37.50 / box

$75,000,000 revenue... minus any form of production value and overhead costs, including staff costs for the first free month (800 developers during production). Then factor in life time subs and special edition box sets and the like.

Pretty crude estimations but I wouldn't say unfair. Hypothetically they recouped 1/4 of the development cost back at launch. Worrying but not the end of the world. If they say they're profitable they must be earning more than the running costs.

It'd be a far stretch to believe they've managed to scrape up the rest of the development cost since then.

So all that money and what did we get? What inspiring and amazing innovation did SWTOR bring to the market? What features left us in awe to the point we can't ever imagine playing MMORPGs without them ever again?

RIFT around the $50,000,000 mark is not significantly better or worse than SWTOR depending on who you talk to. I guess a dynamic edge to the PvE events was an innovative idea and the solid smooth release.

DFUW estimates at around >$10,000,000 mark with 40-50 staff and offers players a very different experience to every day MMOs. (Polar opposite type of game)

 

So what has SWTOR done for the MMO market?

 

 

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Comments

  • akiira69akiira69 San Diego, CAPosts: 590Member Uncommon
    Its given me a game to play until CCP Games releases its next AAA MMO titled World of Darkness.

    "Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"

  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member

    4 man groups

    16 player PvP instances

    This level of graphical performance limited a $200,000,000 game to such small PvP/Group encounters?

    http://www.bethanycorcoran.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/swtor-2011-12-23-07-17-26-790.jpg

     

    When this game can do the same numbers...

    http://cdn.overclock.net/9/91/91660d00_crysis_3_-_e3_2012_-_dambusters_-bow_attack.jpeg

     

    And a game with relatively similar quality of graphics to SWTOR (better?) can do 500+ in an area

    http://www.darkfallonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/media_images_1280x720/public/screenshots/UW_Skirmisher%20in%20Fahnark%20.jpg?itok=L3gTLaXI

     

    $200,000,000 to make a co-op / small scale multiplayer game?

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Not every MMO needs to advance MMO genre. I have enjoyed Rift and SWTOR more than any so called innovative MMOS like GW2. I put more emphasis on whether i am having fun in game or not.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Not every MMO needs to advance MMO genre. I have enjoyed Rift and SWTOR more than any so called innovative MMOS like GW2. I put more emphasis on whether i am having fun in game or not.

    But yet Rift for example, did more to push forward innovation in Themepark MMO's than SWTOR with roughly 1/4 of the development costs.

    So you're right, not every MMO needs to advance the genre in some way, aslong as it's a fun game. But when you make an MMO with costs that blow every other title out of the water, you'd expect something new and revolutionary. Not to the same standard or even a lesser standard (minus the well known IP) than the competing games.

    I'm certain any other developer would've worked wonders with such a massive budget. Look to Archeage for an example.

    Same sort of budget we're seeing for standard MMO's but they're making the most innovative MMO to hit the market in a very long time. Insane interaction with your surroundings, insane graphics, much larger scale combat, housing, massive story telling, raids, player built cities, complex economy.... more.

     

    You can't help but think about SWTOR and see an empty shell?

     

  • RavingRabbidRavingRabbid Virginia beach, VAPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    Whats Has SWTOR done for the MMO market? Answer: it's made me a happy gamer. [mod edit]

    All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
    Playing: SWTOR, ESO, WOT, and Marvel Heroes

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Greymoor
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Not every MMO needs to advance MMO genre. I have enjoyed Rift and SWTOR more than any so called innovative MMOS like GW2. I put more emphasis on whether i am having fun in game or not.

    But yet Rift for example, did more to push forward innovation in Themepark MMO's than SWTOR with roughly 1/4 of the development costs.

    So you're right, not every MMO needs to advance the genre in some way, aslong as it's a fun game. But when you make an MMO with costs that blow every other title out of the water, you'd expect something new and revolutionary. Not to the same standard or even a lesser standard (minus the well known IP) than the competing games.

    I'm certain any other developer would've worked wonders with such a massive budget. Look to Archeage for an example.

    Same sort of budget we're seeing for standard MMO's but they're making the most innovative MMO to hit the market in a very long time. Insane interaction with your surroundings, insane graphics, much larger scale combat, housing, massive story telling, raids, player built cities, complex economy.... more.

     

    You can't help but think about SWTOR and see an empty shell?

     

    Like what exactly? i know you gonna say 'rifts'..is that it? that is what you call pushing innovation?

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member
    Originally posted by RavingRabbid

    Whats Has SWTOR done for the MMO market? Answer: it's made me a happy gamer. Please troll another game somewhere else please.

    Every MMO will make a loyal fan base happy. This thread isn't about that.

    It's about:

    A.) The huge costs and trying to recoup them

    B.) The innovation or progress the game has brought to the genre

    C.) Comparing the features to that of 'clones' and other MMOs with a significantly lower budget and smaller team

  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Greymoor
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Not every MMO needs to advance MMO genre. I have enjoyed Rift and SWTOR more than any so called innovative MMOS like GW2. I put more emphasis on whether i am having fun in game or not.

    But yet Rift for example, did more to push forward innovation in Themepark MMO's than SWTOR with roughly 1/4 of the development costs.

    So you're right, not every MMO needs to advance the genre in some way, aslong as it's a fun game. But when you make an MMO with costs that blow every other title out of the water, you'd expect something new and revolutionary. Not to the same standard or even a lesser standard (minus the well known IP) than the competing games.

    I'm certain any other developer would've worked wonders with such a massive budget. Look to Archeage for an example.

    Same sort of budget we're seeing for standard MMO's but they're making the most innovative MMO to hit the market in a very long time. Insane interaction with your surroundings, insane graphics, much larger scale combat, housing, massive story telling, raids, player built cities, complex economy.... more.

     

    You can't help but think about SWTOR and see an empty shell?

     

    Like what exactly? i know you gonna say 'rifts'..is that it? that is what you call pushing innovation?

    I don't claim Rift has revolutionised the market. GW2 and Rift have paved the first stepping stones to add a more dynamic nature to themepark games. Rift is what it's supposed to be, a high quality themepark 'clone' with it's own spin. It also had a very modest development cost.

    The example of pushing innovation was Archeage.

  • AnthurAnthur StolbergPosts: 686Member Uncommon

    It showed the market that a huge budget doesn't necessarily mean you get a great MMO although you have one of the best IPs you can get. That''s more or less it. Swtor is an ok singleplayer/co-op game with some story. But as an MMO it is a failure imo.

    I also wished other MMO companies had more money/rsources to spend.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

  • RavingRabbidRavingRabbid Virginia beach, VAPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greymoor
    Originally posted by RavingRabbid
    Originally posted by Greymoor
    Originally posted by RavingRabbid

    Whats Has SWTOR done for the MMO market? Answer: it's made me a happy gamer. Please troll another game somewhere else please.

    Every MMO will make a loyal fan base happy. This thread isn't about that.

    It's about:

    A.) The huge costs and trying to recoup them

    B.) The innovation or progress the game has brought to the genre

    C.) Comparing the features to that of 'clones' and other MMOs with a significantly lower budget and smaller team

    A. I dont care

    B. I dont care

    C. I dont care

    The only thing I care about is that I am having fun and enjoying the game. What you are doing which has already been done in threads past is start an irrevant argument to troll/hate the game. Maybe you should do a thread on on how board games today have or have not been innovative> You can start with Tiddly Winks.

    If anything you're the one trolling. If you don't care, there's no need to join in the discussion.

    or you to start one that been done 1000 times before.....

    All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
    Playing: SWTOR, ESO, WOT, and Marvel Heroes

  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member
    [mod edit]

    Discussing what a game has done with a large budget that many other titles have with a fraction of that budget is not 'trolling' the game. It's a genuine thing to discuss, where has SWTOR shown innovation to you? Do you think the developers could have achieved significantly more with the same budget?

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Lancaster, UKPosts: 2,141Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greymoor
    Originally posted by RavingRabbid

    Whats Has SWTOR done for the MMO market? Answer: it's made me a happy gamer. Please troll another game somewhere else please.

    Every MMO will make a loyal fan base happy. This thread isn't about that.

    It's about:

    A.) The huge costs and trying to recoup them

    B.) The innovation or progress the game has brought to the genre

    C.) Comparing the features to that of 'clones' and other MMOs with a significantly lower budget and smaller team

    A. They nickel and dime everybody.

    B. They brought cut scenes and voice overs!!

    C. They brought cut scenes and voice overs!!

     

    Also, this has been discussed to death so why bring it up again... [mod edit]

  • HersaintHersaint Oak, WIPosts: 366Member

    quote]A. They nickel and dime everybody.

    B. They brought cut scenes and voice overs!!

    C. They brought cut scenes and voice overs!!

    This made me spill my coffee this morning. Hilarious!

    That is the innovation and that is what the money brought the gaining community. I was sad to find that out as well.

    image
  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Greymoor

    Discussing what a game has done with a large budget that many other titles have with a fraction of that budget is not 'trolling' the game.

    But that is not what you are doing. You are not asking what they have done with the money but sort your own arbitrary qualifiers and then compare how the game is meeting it - trolling.

    The game was never intended to "innovate the genre", no game is. All games are trying to achieve the same - make money.

    What EA did with their money is to bring very polished, high quality game with heavy focus on story telling. Which is precisely they did and they did it well.

  • RavingRabbidRavingRabbid Virginia beach, VAPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greymoor
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Greymoor

    Perhaps if we focused on the topic of the thread instead of calling 'troll' on people who want a genuine discussion on the topic.

     

    Isn't the topic trolling SWTOR since that is the genuine concern here?

    Discussing what a game has done with a large budget that many other titles have with a fraction of that budget is not 'trolling' the game. It's a genuine thing to discuss, where has SWTOR shown innovation to you? Do you think the developers could have achieved significantly more with the same budget?

    What you are trying to do is hide behind the term discussion, when we all know it just isnt the case. There have been many threads on if this game has been innovative, money spent , or what it done for the genre. Please go back and reread those threads. Sadly most of them degenerated into EA sucks, Bioware sucks, wow clone etc etc. There was and is rarely any true discussion. Understand that anytime someone creates a thread on these subject people roll thier perverbial eyes. go back and reread those older threads instead of creating a new one and "beating a dead horse". Nuff said

    All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
    Playing: SWTOR, ESO, WOT, and Marvel Heroes

  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Greymoor

    Discussing what a game has done with a large budget that many other titles have with a fraction of that budget is not 'trolling' the game.

     

    But that is not what you are doing. You are not asking what they have done with the money but sort your own arbitrary qualifiers and then compare how the game is meeting it - trolling.

    The game was never intended to "innovate the genre", no game is. All games are trying to achieve the same - make money.

    What EA did with their money is to bring very polished, high quality game with heavy focus on story telling. Which is precisely they did and they did it well.

     

    To achieve what EA has done only takes roughly 1/4 of the budget that was spent on this game and far less than 800 developers.

    Even now to push the boundaries you're not looking at an excessive budget above $100,000,000. If EA was simply trying to make money they'd know business wise than an average game only needs an average budget to succeed in this field.  Rift was more polished and quality at release.

    How could the developers fail to push the envelope with all the funding in the world and the time to execute it?

    I'm certain the story telling aspect is good because it's star wars, their money was well spent in the regard but then they failed to transition that story to an MMO. As another poster pointed out, the story is a co-op / small multiplayer game, within an MMORPG. An expensive co-op / multiplayer game at that (for obvious development cost reasons).

    So apart from the basics of every themepark MMO, what have EA done with a budget x4 times larger and a small army of developers that makes SWTOR stand out?

     

     

  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member
    Originally posted by RavingRabbid
    Originally posted by Greymoor
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Greymoor

    Perhaps if we focused on the topic of the thread instead of calling 'troll' on people who want a genuine discussion on the topic.

     

    Isn't the topic trolling SWTOR since that is the genuine concern here?

    Discussing what a game has done with a large budget that many other titles have with a fraction of that budget is not 'trolling' the game. It's a genuine thing to discuss, where has SWTOR shown innovation to you? Do you think the developers could have achieved significantly more with the same budget?

    What you are trying to do is hide behind the term discussion, when we all know it just isnt the case. There have been many threads on if this game has been innovative, money spent , or what it done for the genre. Please go back and reread those threads. Sadly most of them degenerated into EA sucks, Bioware sucks, wow clone etc etc. There was and is rarely any true discussion. Understand that anytime someone creates a thread on these subject people roll thier perverbial eyes. go back and reread those older threads instead of creating a new one and "beating a dead horse". Nuff said

    If that's the case I don't want to go search for those threads. I want a genuine discussion that doesn't boil down to simple flaming. The possibilities an MMORPG could bring with a $200,000,000 budget are endless, let's discuss where this development team of 800 got with that dream budget.

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon
    OP, hopefully it was a lesson for other companies, how not to make a lifeless, boring, overly voice acted, terribly cloned mmo. It's a niche game, not everyone wants to sit through the boring dialogue for every single thing they do in a game. When you get home from work, school, whatever, most people want to play an mmorpg for the adventure, not sit through dialogue.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by GreymoorTo achieve what EA has done only takes roughly 1/4 of the budget that was spent on this game and far less than 800 developers.

    See, your questions are not genuine, you already have your answers.


    If you cannot tell the difference, and Rift in your book has "achieved the same" as SWTOR , then go and play Rift.


    Meanwhile, I and others who are capable to recognize and appreciate quality will enjoy SWTOR for high quality it provides.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greymoor
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Not every MMO needs to advance MMO genre. I have enjoyed Rift and SWTOR more than any so called innovative MMOS like GW2. I put more emphasis on whether i am having fun in game or not.

    But yet Rift for example, did more to push forward innovation in Themepark MMO's than SWTOR with roughly 1/4 of the development costs.

    So you're right, not every MMO needs to advance the genre in some way, aslong as it's a fun game. But when you make an MMO with costs that blow every other title out of the water, you'd expect something new and revolutionary. Not to the same standard or even a lesser standard (minus the well known IP) than the competing games.

    I'm certain any other developer would've worked wonders with such a massive budget. Look to Archeage for an example.

    Same sort of budget we're seeing for standard MMO's but they're making the most innovative MMO to hit the market in a very long time. Insane interaction with your surroundings, insane graphics, much larger scale combat, housing, massive story telling, raids, player built cities, complex economy.... more.

     

    You can't help but think about SWTOR and see an empty shell?

     

     

    Well SWTOR was the first fully voice-acted mmo. Is that not innovative? Also, hen you're talking about hundreds of thousands of lines of voice acting, you're going to have some associated cost with that which you wouldn't in another game.  Additionally, you're talking about a studio who probably employs developers at a higher rate per head than most indie developers. Again, not saying they're better than an indie developer, they just cost more. 

     

    I do agree that Rift offered some innovation, but just because you're given hundreds of options for class choice doesn't meant that people are going to deviate wildly from 2 or 3 variants which are the most effective. Classless systems or systems with hundreds or thousands of variations could be viewed as a waste of time, too. I love optimizing my skill tree for my own gameplay style, but there are still paths which are clearly better than others, even if just marginally, so you'll wind up going that route anyway. 

     

    Other than the class system, I'm not sure what massive innovations Rift really offered. I mean the idea of Rifts is also cool, and I think we're seeing more instances of random events, etc., but they didn't pioneer that idea. Shoot, I don't think they really pioneered the idea of varied classes either. Maybe it was the first time that these actually worked in a game that lasted on the market for more than a year, though. 

     

    Also, you're assuming that they said, "We want to make a star wars game for as cheap as possible." No, that's not how the conversation goes. It's usually more like, "Ok, we want to make a Star Wars game and we've got a budget of $200,000,000." It doesn't really matter where the money goes, they could be having lobster lunches for all as far as we know. There is a budgeted project and milestones, and whatever it takes to get there, you do. If you don't then you get canned. They're obviously going to have to be accountable in some regard, but in the end there has already been a cost justification performed and they're going to spend that budget. I'll bet if Rift had a $200 million budget, you'd see the exact same game as it is as a $50 million game. Even a $50 million game is ridiculous when you look at Kickstarter and see projects being made for $4 million at most. Isn't it? Probably more innovative too. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,797Member Uncommon
    OP all of your assumption depend on the first 3 words of your post being correct.
  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member

    Fully voice acted quests/storyline adds to immersion but voice acting isn't innovative and didn't cost anywhere near $150,000,000 alone.

    You're right, they wouldn't have decided to make a cheap MMO. If the conversation went, we have $200,000,000 to do this the conversation would've definately been "What will separate this MMO from other themeparks and beat WoW? We have the funding and we have a small army of developers. What can we do to really make this game something special?"

    Essentially they made a voice-acted Co-op - Tiny group, multiplayer game. Not an MMO. There's nothing 'massively online' about SWTOR than BF3 or Crysis.

    Where was the massive open world that Star Wars is all about? Worlds even, with virtually non-instanced travel. The technology exists for that these days and they had the money to do it.

    Where was the interactive capability and the dynamic content that is do-able through todays technology? Farming, extensive crafting, object interactions, realistic weather and associated effects etc.

    Where was the opportunity for massive scale battles that make the Star Wars saga? (Players not NPCs)

    How did they not think about letting players make their mark in the world, housing, cities, conquest, dominion?

    When the co-op story ends, why didn't they think of an epic end-game on top of instances? Politics for example, more open features.

    Anyone who thinks EA didn't intend to push the envelope with this game are kidding themselves, this was supposed to be the WoW killer.

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,051Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by akiira69
    Its given me a game to play until CCP Games releases its next AAA MMO titled World of Darkness.

    You are going to play SWTOR for 6 years ??

    image

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Greymoor
    4 man groups

    16 player PvP instances

    This level of graphical performance limited a $200,000,000 game to such small PvP/Group encounters?

    http://www.bethanycorcoran.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/swtor-2011-12-23-07-17-26-790.jpg

     

    When this game can do the same numbers...

    http://cdn.overclock.net/9/91/91660d00_crysis_3_-_e3_2012_-_dambusters_-bow_attack.jpeg

     

    And a game with relatively similar quality of graphics to SWTOR (better?) can do 500+ in an area

    http://www.darkfallonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/media_images_1280x720/public/screenshots/UW_Skirmisher%20in%20Fahnark%20.jpg?itok=L3gTLaXI

     

    $200,000,000 to make a co-op / small scale multiplayer game?


    darkfall actually blows hard, though. why do we care how much SWTOR cost to make?

  • GreymoorGreymoor ManchesterPosts: 801Member
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by Greymoor
    4 man groups

     

    16 player PvP instances

    This level of graphical performance limited a $200,000,000 game to such small PvP/Group encounters?

    http://www.bethanycorcoran.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/swtor-2011-12-23-07-17-26-790.jpg

     

    When this game can do the same numbers...

    http://cdn.overclock.net/9/91/91660d00_crysis_3_-_e3_2012_-_dambusters_-bow_attack.jpeg

     

    And a game with relatively similar quality of graphics to SWTOR (better?) can do 500+ in an area

    http://www.darkfallonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/media_images_1280x720/public/screenshots/UW_Skirmisher%20in%20Fahnark%20.jpg?itok=L3gTLaXI

     

    $200,000,000 to make a co-op / small scale multiplayer game?


     

    darkfall actually blows hard, though.

    Regardless of your opinion of the game, it's still a massive non-instanced world which can have far more people within an area. Which shows the technology exists.

    800 Developers+  v.s.  40 Developers.

    $200,000,000  vs  >$10,000,000

    One of those games is leaps and bounds more technically superior than the other one. I'll let you guess.

    Perhaps hiring too many developers who lacked the proper skills and management was a huge pitfall for SWTOR?

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