Now there's a system with x3 more moving parts regarding how stealth can and does work... My point was and i'll say it again... it's over complicating a minor issue, and will end up doing nothing because people will still complain when they die, and people will complain if their stealther, err sorry Veil stalker, can't kill anything.
I don't understand the need to install 3 forms of stealth classes all to make the whiners about stealthers shut up lol
Seems like an awful large complexity for something that can be solved so easily. To each their own. Guarentee people will whine so hard about this system when people start passing through walls and killing them lol. Always something to complain about sigh, don't worry ... be happy.
3 forms of stealth classes?
veil walker? veil stalker? camo scout?
they are all forms of stealth in some form or another. whatever shuts up the complainers i guess go for it MJ
Veil Stalkers are not "stealth" classes. They spot the Veil walkers which are the only true "stealth" class. MJ has said that the camo for archers/rangers will root them in place and it will be tied to being in cover/foliage/etc.
So there is only one "stealth" class, and even then it's not 100% invisible.
I know that rofl.... my point is there are 3 classes designed around the one ability. It's excessive complication to an easier simple solution.
And by simple do you mean just remove stealth entirely or something more elegant?
I know I'm excited to see how this idea plays out. If it works, great. If it doesn't, oh well.
Again more assumptions about only taking on solo mages, maybe you shouldn't solo around stealther locations if you're a solo mage? forced interaction is what this games about no? at least a little bit?
I sure would like to know where these non-stealth areas are, besides in town.
Now there's a system with x3 more moving parts regarding how stealth can and does work... My point was and i'll say it again... it's over complicating a minor issue, and will end up doing nothing because people will still complain when they die, and people will complain if their stealther, err sorry Veil stalker, can't kill anything.
I don't really see what's so complicated. World of WarCraft has several stealth classes too yet no one has problems understanding how it works. It's really not that difficult. Walkers can move through the Veil at some risk and be invisible and capable of moving through walls. Stalkers can spot them and lay traps. Archers can make themselves difficult to see while standing still. How is that complicated?
But say Walkers turn out to be really unpopular (probably unlikely since stealth classes typically are popular), then the Stalkers might be less popular also since they effect is diminshed. Not necessarily a problem, though. Just means there'll be less of both. Or more of both if Walkers are very popular.
I have zero issue with invisibility as long as it is treated as a magic ability, short duration and has built in restrictions.
I can never understand why so many flip the frack out over some one having the ability to go invisible for a few seconds. If counters are placed in game then all should be good.
if there is a duration that you can be in stealth you might aswell not even implement stealth at all...people like the thrill of stalking your enemy and being able to strike when YOU are ready, not popping out of stealth at random times and getting zerged
Originally posted by Haze209 daoc did stealth perfect and made it really really fun i think they should do something very similar to this game.
I agree with this ^
The way stealthers had an easier time seeing eachother made for another level in pvp. Stealthers in my own group would warn me, protect me and when we fought other groups, you had choices as a stealther, like taking out there stealther (the groups *scissors*) or focussing on their healer or protecting your groups own soft targets.
For those that completely want to change the mechanic to some broke ass bullshit way of being stealth -IE short time limit etc, I can't help but think you guys are still butt hurt about getting owned.
What if I was to say that the long range that most casters have is dare I say overpowered. And I could say this same thing about any class's abilities. You can QQ about anything, a tanks armor, hitpoints, a healers ridiculous heals...
Why I am I even replying to this thread lol, how long till this game is POSSIBLY released?
Perftectly put....the stealther vs stealther fights were probably one of the most exciting battles of the game i loved having MoS and seeing another stealther before he seen you and laying a perfect PA....if you have a stealth duration it pretty much just becomes a rogue (a tank with stealth) which has been done and is quite boring IMO....i dont want to have to run from tree to tree waiting for my stealth timer to come back up so i can hide again and hopefully wasnt seen
Originally posted by zeroumus its not really your right to strike first however
what does this even mean? lol
It means he doesn't want any class to have any skill or ability which gives them any sort of advantage. You know, so all the classes should have the same range, the same DPS, the same speed, the same armor and resistances, the same everything.
Come on, it's not a caster's RIGHT to cast a bolt at a greater range than a tank can swing his axe, dude! That's just silly talk! It's not a healer's RIGHT to actually heal a toon when a DPS class can't! A Bard has no right to play that sissy music and move so fast when my Armsman lumbers along so slowly!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Originally posted by zeroumus its not really your right to strike first however
what does this even mean? lol
It means he doesn't want any class to have any skill or ability which gives them any sort of advantage. You know, so all the classes should have the same range, the same DPS, the same speed, the same armor and resistances, the same everything.
Come on, it's not a caster's RIGHT to cast a bolt at a greater range than a tank can swing his axe, dude! That's just silly talk! It's not a healer's RIGHT to actually heal a toon when a DPS class can't! A Bard has no right to play that sissy music and move so fast when my Armsman lumbers along so slowly!
LOL. Nicely done.
Homogenization and the myth of class balance. Now there's a topic...
Originally posted by zeroumus its not really your right to strike first however
what does this even mean? lol
it likely means you feel entitled to having it your way and don't like being challenged on it.
Your line of reasoning can be turned around on you. What class do you like to play? Lets make some fundamental changes to that class.
And when you start to voice your opinions, we can just tell you that you feel entitled to having it your way and you don't like being challenged.
Does that sound fair?
The truth is, when someone gets used to certain mechanics working a certain way, you get used to it. And it just starts to feel right.
Entitled? no.
Uncomfortable with a change, yes. But that can be said about any major change to any class.
i understand what you are saying, i knew I would get this. but i think the difference is with all the other abilities that other classes have, there is always some reasonable method to counter it. Invisability does not really have a counter, you cant really choose to avoid it. You can always avoid the fire ball, stay close to a healer, dodge with other classes or avoid sniper hang outs.
Me bringing up words like, entitled, and is a little loaded and unproductive however. Uncomfortable is a fair wording.
no, I do not want classes that are all the same, far from it, nobody likes that. Well maybe the board at Electronics arts likes it. I just dont like the typical invisable mechanic, introducing bad game mechanics should not be part of making every class different.
again though, if the opener is not too devestating, then i can tolerate it. But, I would prefere that a game be built from the ground up without it.
The core of my case is that invis has no good counter. Good meaning, fair and fun. Thats my opinion, and I do understand that that other may think that is ok. but thats my opinion and I still stick with it forever.
Remember when everyone thought assassin types where overpowered even when they could PA and weapon swap/poison dump a tank and get owned? From stealth. So overpowered.
Also, having bolts and mass aoe killing tools and access to CC meant that without stealthers in Daoc, casters would have been even more insane than they already were.
Tank kills rogue. Mage kills tank. Rogue kills mage.
Rps what?
I never once hated in stealth in Daoc, even as a caster. Hell, my mana/mind mentalist could often get off a qc mezz, HoT himself and DoT/nuke after a PA, provided I got it off before CD. Easier with SBs.
Bottom line for all you whiners is infinite stealth is not over powered, never has been and never will be. All of you who cry about stealthers are really crying about WoW rogues which are no more overpowered then Mages and Warlocks who can kill you before you have time to realize which direction to turn.
What is overpowered is openers that are guaranteed to knock out 40+ percent of your health or vanishes that completely reset the fight. The first is easily balanced and the second can be easily removed. Good players learn to deal with it in the mean time.
No I don't play stealthers, I eat stealthers. We all have archetypes we have trouble with but we get better. Mark has handled stealth very well in both games he made and I am sure stealth will be nothing like WoW's. Even if it is the rest of us will learn to deal with it as we've always have and the rest of you will continue to whine.
You can't always win.
----------
Anyways... since you are all assuming stealth is always like WoW I will tell you how to ALWAYS beat a WoW rogue one on one.
Whenever you are running around by yourself have your defensive stance / buff / aura on so that you can withstand initial burst.
When running up to a node drop an AoE on it or nearby things people could be hiding behind.
Usually you can hear a rogue go into stealth at which point you put on defensive stuff and drop an AoE. Run in circles.
He will probably sap you. Eat it, he wants you to waste your trinket. Drop AoE when you can.
Eventually he will stop being a wussy and stun you and attack you. Eat it since you have your defensive crap up.
Turn around stick it in his butt. Try and keep dots on him for vanish but he will probably be able to vanish anyway.
He will vanish and run away drop AoE in the direction you think he is going. He is probably smarter then you and avoided it but if he isn't finish him off.
If he gets away just heal yourself he will come back at half health and be an easy kill.
If you are an Enhancement or Elemental Shaman there is nothing you can do just disregard all of the above and die. If you are a pure healer you probably can't kill him he will eventually give up and run away and come back with two other people at which point you die. If you are a warlock why the hell are you whining?
It's a nice little guide, Schurge. And I agree with you. But most posters (at least this is my guess) are more concerned with DAoC type Stealth. However, the same general rule applies. The Stealth was NEVER the issue... the issues were:
1) HUGE opening strikes
2) Ridiculously long stuns from Assassins
3) Buffbots and their imbalancing effect
In the end, there were more than enough counters to all of these things, but people continued to whine.
I think MJ is wise in simply eliminating these three things and pursuing Stealth Classes without those contentious abilities.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
It's a nice little guide, Schurge. And I agree with you. But most posters (at least this is my guess) are more concerned with DAoC type Stealth. However, the same general rule applies. The Stealth was NEVER the issue... the issues were:
1) HUGE opening strikes
2) Ridiculously long stuns from Assassins
3) Buffbots and their imbalancing effect
In the end, there were more than enough counters to all of these things, but people continued to whine.
I think MJ is wise in simply eliminating these three things and pursuing Stealth Classes without those contentious abilities.
Agreed. You are absolutely correct.
Especially at this stage of development, I love that MJ and CSE are are exploring new ideas. Whether you like Veil Stealth or not, it is great to see the approach:
This has been an issue across many games.
Let's look at this gameplay differently.
Fix potential issues before they appear in our game.
And, yes, that might mean your favored class may change and evolve in different directions. But, if you are not down for something different, you are probably following the wrong game.
The reason I find stealth much more problematic than other abilities is that it lets you pick and choose your fights, which is a very powerful tactical ability. In a closed PvP setting like an arena, this doesn't help much, but it's quite a different story in an open PvP setting.
Comments
People complain about stealth.
Now there's a system with x3 more moving parts regarding how stealth can and does work... My point was and i'll say it again... it's over complicating a minor issue, and will end up doing nothing because people will still complain when they die, and people will complain if their stealther, err sorry Veil stalker, can't kill anything.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
And by simple do you mean just remove stealth entirely or something more elegant?
I know I'm excited to see how this idea plays out. If it works, great. If it doesn't, oh well.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
I sure would like to know where these non-stealth areas are, besides in town.
I don't really see what's so complicated. World of WarCraft has several stealth classes too yet no one has problems understanding how it works. It's really not that difficult. Walkers can move through the Veil at some risk and be invisible and capable of moving through walls. Stalkers can spot them and lay traps. Archers can make themselves difficult to see while standing still. How is that complicated?
But say Walkers turn out to be really unpopular (probably unlikely since stealth classes typically are popular), then the Stalkers might be less popular also since they effect is diminshed. Not necessarily a problem, though. Just means there'll be less of both. Or more of both if Walkers are very popular.
I have zero issue with invisibility as long as it is treated as a magic ability, short duration and has built in restrictions.
I can never understand why so many flip the frack out over some one having the ability to go invisible for a few seconds. If counters are placed in game then all should be good.
You stay sassy!
what does this even mean? lol
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
it likely means you feel entitled to having it your way and don't like being challenged on it.
I prefer being a rogue in MMOs.
But I will skip veil stalkers. The mechanics is just too different and I don't like it.
Might be a caster this time.
I agree with this ^
The way stealthers had an easier time seeing eachother made for another level in pvp. Stealthers in my own group would warn me, protect me and when we fought other groups, you had choices as a stealther, like taking out there stealther (the groups *scissors*) or focussing on their healer or protecting your groups own soft targets.
For those that completely want to change the mechanic to some broke ass bullshit way of being stealth -IE short time limit etc, I can't help but think you guys are still butt hurt about getting owned.
What if I was to say that the long range that most casters have is dare I say overpowered. And I could say this same thing about any class's abilities. You can QQ about anything, a tanks armor, hitpoints, a healers ridiculous heals...
Why I am I even replying to this thread lol, how long till this game is POSSIBLY released?
Your line of reasoning can be turned around on you. What class do you like to play? Lets make some fundamental changes to that class.
And when you start to voice your opinions, we can just tell you that you feel entitled to having it your way and you don't like being challenged.
Does that sound fair?
The truth is, when someone gets used to certain mechanics working a certain way, you get used to it. And it just starts to feel right.
Entitled? no.
Uncomfortable with a change, yes. But that can be said about any major change to any class.
It means he doesn't want any class to have any skill or ability which gives them any sort of advantage. You know, so all the classes should have the same range, the same DPS, the same speed, the same armor and resistances, the same everything.
Come on, it's not a caster's RIGHT to cast a bolt at a greater range than a tank can swing his axe, dude! That's just silly talk! It's not a healer's RIGHT to actually heal a toon when a DPS class can't! A Bard has no right to play that sissy music and move so fast when my Armsman lumbers along so slowly!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
LOL. Nicely done.
Homogenization and the myth of class balance. Now there's a topic...
i understand what you are saying, i knew I would get this. but i think the difference is with all the other abilities that other classes have, there is always some reasonable method to counter it. Invisability does not really have a counter, you cant really choose to avoid it. You can always avoid the fire ball, stay close to a healer, dodge with other classes or avoid sniper hang outs.
Me bringing up words like, entitled, and is a little loaded and unproductive however. Uncomfortable is a fair wording.
no, I do not want classes that are all the same, far from it, nobody likes that. Well maybe the board at Electronics arts likes it. I just dont like the typical invisable mechanic, introducing bad game mechanics should not be part of making every class different.
again though, if the opener is not too devestating, then i can tolerate it. But, I would prefere that a game be built from the ground up without it.
The core of my case is that invis has no good counter. Good meaning, fair and fun. Thats my opinion, and I do understand that that other may think that is ok. but thats my opinion and I still stick with it forever.
Also, having bolts and mass aoe killing tools and access to CC meant that without stealthers in Daoc, casters would have been even more insane than they already were.
Tank kills rogue.
Mage kills tank.
Rogue kills mage.
Rps what?
I never once hated in stealth in Daoc, even as a caster. Hell, my mana/mind mentalist could often get off a qc mezz, HoT himself and DoT/nuke after a PA, provided I got it off before CD. Easier with SBs.
Stealth is not the problem. Vanish is.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
There are and were always plenty of counters to stealth lol
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Bottom line for all you whiners is infinite stealth is not over powered, never has been and never will be. All of you who cry about stealthers are really crying about WoW rogues which are no more overpowered then Mages and Warlocks who can kill you before you have time to realize which direction to turn.
What is overpowered is openers that are guaranteed to knock out 40+ percent of your health or vanishes that completely reset the fight. The first is easily balanced and the second can be easily removed. Good players learn to deal with it in the mean time.
No I don't play stealthers, I eat stealthers. We all have archetypes we have trouble with but we get better. Mark has handled stealth very well in both games he made and I am sure stealth will be nothing like WoW's. Even if it is the rest of us will learn to deal with it as we've always have and the rest of you will continue to whine.
You can't always win.
----------
Anyways... since you are all assuming stealth is always like WoW I will tell you how to ALWAYS beat a WoW rogue one on one.
Whenever you are running around by yourself have your defensive stance / buff / aura on so that you can withstand initial burst.
When running up to a node drop an AoE on it or nearby things people could be hiding behind.
Usually you can hear a rogue go into stealth at which point you put on defensive stuff and drop an AoE. Run in circles.
He will probably sap you. Eat it, he wants you to waste your trinket. Drop AoE when you can.
Eventually he will stop being a wussy and stun you and attack you. Eat it since you have your defensive crap up.
Turn around stick it in his butt. Try and keep dots on him for vanish but he will probably be able to vanish anyway.
He will vanish and run away drop AoE in the direction you think he is going. He is probably smarter then you and avoided it but if he isn't finish him off.
If he gets away just heal yourself he will come back at half health and be an easy kill.
If you are an Enhancement or Elemental Shaman there is nothing you can do just disregard all of the above and die. If you are a pure healer you probably can't kill him he will eventually give up and run away and come back with two other people at which point you die. If you are a warlock why the hell are you whining?
It's a nice little guide, Schurge. And I agree with you. But most posters (at least this is my guess) are more concerned with DAoC type Stealth. However, the same general rule applies. The Stealth was NEVER the issue... the issues were:
1) HUGE opening strikes
2) Ridiculously long stuns from Assassins
3) Buffbots and their imbalancing effect
In the end, there were more than enough counters to all of these things, but people continued to whine.
I think MJ is wise in simply eliminating these three things and pursuing Stealth Classes without those contentious abilities.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Agreed. You are absolutely correct.
Especially at this stage of development, I love that MJ and CSE are are exploring new ideas. Whether you like Veil Stealth or not, it is great to see the approach:
Sigh
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked