Neither are scams but if one had to be categorized as a scam i would go with f2p. Waste of time and for soem a waste of money. Imagine that, a free to play game a waste of money.
Why do you feel the need to make a post like this? A post thats been made a million times over and over with the same back and forth bs every time. Some people like f2p thats fine, to each their own. Fact of the matter is a lot of people wont play anything other then sub based games. I am one of them. Sub based games subtract a slew of broke annoying obnoxious children from the equation (WoW excluded). Paying 15 dollars a month is not a huge deal for me cause I have a JOB, I would much rather have a fixed cost then have the constant lingering thought that I could be doing better if I just spent a bit more more money on cash shop convenience items or even worse pay 2 win items. I shouldn't have to pull out my wallet in order to be able to compete with others and level the playing field my time played and experience should be the only thing taken into account. The MMO genre is dieing, and people like you are the cause.
Originally posted by F2Plague Why do you feel the need to make a post like this? A post thats been made a million times over and over with the same back and forth bs every time. Some people like f2p thats fine, to each their own. Fact of the matter is a lot of people wont play anything other then sub based games. I am one of them. Sub based games subtract a slew of broke annoying obnoxious children from the equation (WoW excluded). Paying 15 dollars a month is not a huge deal for me cause I have a JOB, I would much rather have a fixed cost then have the constant lingering thought that I could be doing better if I just spent a bit more more money on cash shop convenience items or even worse pay 2 win items. I shouldn't have to pull out my wallet in order to be able to compete with others and level the playing field my time played and experience should be the only thing taken into account. The MMO genre is dieing, and people like you are the cause.
The red text is factually false.
The MMO genre is expanding with more $$$ and more people playing MMOs than ever before.
Whether you like that fact or not is irrevelent.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by ironhelix I find it mildly amusing, but mostly just sad, that so many people believe that F2P games cost less to play than a flat subscription.
Of coures i believe that .. because it is backed up by evidence. So far, i paid NOTHING for all the F2P games i played. How much do you think i paid for the P2P games? A lot more.
So for me .. it is quite believable if you just do math.
If you play each game a month or 2 F2P is indeed cheaper. If you on the other hand play a game for years and play the high endgame F2P is usually more expensive.
Lets face it, EA use the payment method that earns them most money and they plan to make all games F2P including single player game. And EA arent a company that just would give away stuff out of the kindness of their hearts so F2P earns more money which also means people generally pay more for it.
Some people do pay nothing or very little but generally people actually påay more or there wouldnt be F2P games.
There is also the case that at the 'end game' or at least higher level gameplay, and particularly in those games that are centered around PVP, the majority of f2p games will give some advantage to the player who actually buys things, or in hybrid games, has a subscription, whether its access to more equipment, faster/increased faction or pvp related xp gains then the player that pays will always be far ahead of the player that doesnt. And thats without even covering any of the quality of gaming issues that most F2P games utilise in order to encourage players to buy things, sure you can ignore them, but if you don't start buying at some point, then the overall game experience suffers by a significant margin. Which is among some of the reasons why i prefer to play P2P games, you not only are on an equal footing to other players, but the charges are known ahead of time, with F2P games, competing with others can cost a fairly large amount of real money, far above and beyond those charges that would normally be incurred in a P2P game, perhaps this is why F2P games are sometimes viewed as being a bit, dubious.. i wouldnt call them scams exactly (well actually i would ) but i wonder how many players reach high level gameplay without realising how much its going to cost them to continue playing in a meaningfull fashion.
Free to Play is the future. It is mainstream, and where all the money is. Free to Play (or other forms of it, like freemium or buy to play (free to play, but still have to spend a one time fee as an entry) are FAR more popular and successful than any pay to play MMO. Even successful MMOs like EVE or WoW, barely make a dent in the free to play MMOs. SWTOR would have died if it didn't go free, same with LOTR, DDO or any other conversions.
While EVE and WoW are successful, the pay to play payment model is going to be within 10 years (and that is being liberal about it), going to be a very niche or even extinct market.
One way pay to play models can survive are deals. But even this won't last Which some do have, deals like Rift. Restaurants often have special offers where you can buy a certain food item, for a much bigger discount. This is very successful. An MMO can offer a 10 dollar per month (no, not 30 dollars for every 3 months, but actually 10 dollars per 1 month). This could delay the extinction of pay to play models. Most MMOs force you to spend 15 dollars, and most people just don't want to spend that kind of money. Or the 30 dollars "special" offer for 3 months...which seems like a con. Why not offer it for every daily month. Then if someone unsubs, the offer is removed from their account.
But, even if p2p offer great deals every month (which would help them greatly)...in this world economy. most people just don't want to spend that money every month. Or many people work 6 jobs a week to pay their mortage, bills, rent and taxes...even if they had the money, a 15 dollar subscription goes wasted
Pay to play has always been rather niche however. WoW being the exception, but many free MMOs are far better. TERA and Aion are the most free of the freemiums, and even Guild Wars 2 shows that you don't need a monthly fee or a pay to win cash shop to succeed. In fact, GW2 is the best example of a massive, probably largest MMO out there...that shows that monthly fees are just not needed. Its cash shop has no IWin items, its all vanity or convience.
Why can GW2 do this, but pay to play MMOs still offer the prehistoric pay every month model, and offer far less content and much smaller patches? WoW it can take 3-4 months for a patch to come out. You get done with the content in less than a day. GW2, there is patches happening all the time and its the biggest game there. All surviving on the box and non-IWin cash shop.
MMOs like SWTOR, LOTR, DDO, TERA, Aion (among many others) and GW2 show that the pay to play model is a scam. It is outdated, and will become even more niche than it ever was. There is no reason to pay for an MMO every month, when you can get far more content every month in GW2, or amazing combat of TERA or the very free Aion. Or SWTOR for the great story. And heck, LOTR and DDO let you earn points in-game so you don't even need to spend any money. And they are all surviving, and doing far better than any pay to play MMO.
can you pls tell us which of those games were f2p since start? i guess they were scamming ppl too until they go f2p, right?
i m paying many years subs for mmo's but i was mostly against sub. now? i can say after all those p2w crap, if i want to play a single mmo in which i dedicate my time, then p2p is my only option.
Even though I like F2P games because they give you the option to try it out before committing, I think I have to disagree to some extend with the OP. The completely free games are bloodsucking trash, that includes Tera, Aion and Neverwinter. WoW's model, albeit working, for me is just wrong, I mean ... paying for expansions AND monthly fee o.o" that is an obvious "scam" or as I like to call it - bloodsucking. I used to play Lineage 2 when it was P2P, box price + 15$/month and you get all expansions "for free" which also had a deadline - 2 expansions a year (every six months). Now that was fun. But yeah the game failed and went F2P but not because of bad business model, but because of NCWest's incompetency but that's whole another matter.
The best model to me personally is, like with any other genre, pay the box price and "consume". Yes that is right, I like Gw2's model. Even though I like Gw2 I'm not playing at the moment simply because I don't have the time for it, I manage to log once a week at most to relax ... should I pay 15$ "fine" for playing 4-5 days out of a month? Nop, I don't think so.
And as someone unknown stated that people were predicting that f2p is the future 10 years ago, um hello o.o" 10 years ago there was no WoW, neither any F2P games with the quality of today's games, so yeah - your argument is invalid. And if you care to notice the bussines model of the last ... say, 10 games, you will see that developers are moving away of P2P. I think that at some point in the future when the sheep get their shit straight and start looking for something else other than pandas fighting dragons, even a titan like WoW will either go F2P or completely shut down. Just to clarify - I'm not saying that this will happen tomorrow, or next week or when the next supposed "WoW killer" comes around.
TL;DR - Yes I think P2P is thing of the past, but I wouldn't like to see a complete F2P future either. B2P with vanity items and "trials" (like in eve online) *should* be the way to go, this is the most convenient thing in my opinion to both the developer and the consumer.
Originally posted by ironhelix I find it mildly amusing, but mostly just sad, that so many people believe that F2P games cost less to play than a flat subscription.
Of coures i believe that .. because it is backed up by evidence. So far, i paid NOTHING for all the F2P games i played. How much do you think i paid for the P2P games? A lot more.
So for me .. it is quite believable if you just do math.
If you play each game a month or 2 F2P is indeed cheaper. If you on the other hand play a game for years and play the high endgame F2P is usually more expensive.
Lets face it, EA use the payment method that earns them most money and they plan to make all games F2P including single player game. And EA arent a company that just would give away stuff out of the kindness of their hearts so F2P earns more money which also means people generally pay more for it.
Some people do pay nothing or very little but generally people actually påay more or there wouldnt be F2P games.
a) Data shows that most players do not pay. Next time, use google.
Originally posted by snapfusion I totally agree, I would much rather spend 30 or 40 a month for part of a game then spend 15 a month for the whole game. I mean, I have math on my side here.........
I don't spend that much on free to play MMOs. I spend 5-10 dollars at the very most, on GW2 or SWTOR (the two main MMOs I'm playing). I by far, spend much less (if at all) than pay to play MMOs.
(edit: to add, WoW players spent 25+ dollars on WoW's cash shop. I think many spent 50 dollars in one go, when they had their vanity pet and mount offers.)
does GW2 have a cash shop now? i thought it was spend money once on the game and then free after that?
Like WoW and EVE (well, did EVE remove their monocole? That was very expensive, more than what WoW offered)...almost all of it is vanity. its always had one.
And not to do with the quote...
Pay to Play MMOs have cash shops too as I mentioned. Which add even more to the scam. WoW has very expensive vanity pets (25 for each one last I looked, and 50 for a mount)...EVE had their monocole and other cash shop items which were more expensive than what WoW offered. Lots of pay to play MMOs have cash shops. Might as well be free.
Originally posted by ironhelix I find it mildly amusing, but mostly just sad, that so many people believe that F2P games cost less to play than a flat subscription.
Of coures i believe that .. because it is backed up by evidence. So far, i paid NOTHING for all the F2P games i played. How much do you think i paid for the P2P games? A lot more.
So for me .. it is quite believable if you just do math.
If you play each game a month or 2 F2P is indeed cheaper. If you on the other hand play a game for years and play the high endgame F2P is usually more expensive.
Can you link to data that supports that? Not forum math about what it can cost if you want to have the best of everything, but something that supports your statement that x years of playing a F2P game usually results in the player spending more than had it been a sub game. It seems like you're making some odd assumptions about how and when players spend money, so I'm interested on what facts or reports that statement is based on.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Loke666Originally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by ironhelix I find it mildly amusing, but mostly just sad, that so many people believe that F2P games cost less to play than a flat subscription.
Of coures i believe that .. because it is backed up by evidence. So far, i paid NOTHING for all the F2P games i played. How much do you think i paid for the P2P games? A lot more.So for me .. it is quite believable if you just do math.If you play each game a month or 2 F2P is indeed cheaper. If you on the other hand play a game for years and play the high endgame F2P is usually more expensive.Lets face it, EA use the payment method that earns them most money and they plan to make all games F2P including single player game. And EA arent a company that just would give away stuff out of the kindness of their hearts so F2P earns more money which also means people generally pay more for it. Some people do pay nothing or very little but generally people actually p
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
The red text is factually false.
The MMO genre is expanding with more $$$ and more people playing MMOs than ever before.
Whether you like that fact or not is irrevelent.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
There is also the case that at the 'end game' or at least higher level gameplay, and particularly in those games that are centered around PVP, the majority of f2p games will give some advantage to the player who actually buys things, or in hybrid games, has a subscription, whether its access to more equipment, faster/increased faction or pvp related xp gains then the player that pays will always be far ahead of the player that doesnt. And thats without even covering any of the quality of gaming issues that most F2P games utilise in order to encourage players to buy things, sure you can ignore them, but if you don't start buying at some point, then the overall game experience suffers by a significant margin. Which is among some of the reasons why i prefer to play P2P games, you not only are on an equal footing to other players, but the charges are known ahead of time, with F2P games, competing with others can cost a fairly large amount of real money, far above and beyond those charges that would normally be incurred in a P2P game, perhaps this is why F2P games are sometimes viewed as being a bit, dubious.. i wouldnt call them scams exactly (well actually i would
) but i wonder how many players reach high level gameplay without realising how much its going to cost them to continue playing in a meaningfull fashion.
can you pls tell us which of those games were f2p since start? i guess they were scamming ppl too until they go f2p, right?
i m paying many years subs for mmo's but i was mostly against sub. now? i can say after all those p2w crap, if i want to play a single mmo in which i dedicate my time, then p2p is my only option.
Even though I like F2P games because they give you the option to try it out before committing, I think I have to disagree to some extend with the OP. The completely free games are bloodsucking trash, that includes Tera, Aion and Neverwinter. WoW's model, albeit working, for me is just wrong, I mean ... paying for expansions AND monthly fee o.o" that is an obvious "scam" or as I like to call it - bloodsucking. I used to play Lineage 2 when it was P2P, box price + 15$/month and you get all expansions "for free" which also had a deadline - 2 expansions a year (every six months). Now that was fun. But yeah the game failed and went F2P but not because of bad business model, but because of NCWest's incompetency but that's whole another matter.
The best model to me personally is, like with any other genre, pay the box price and "consume". Yes that is right, I like Gw2's model. Even though I like Gw2 I'm not playing at the moment simply because I don't have the time for it, I manage to log once a week at most to relax ... should I pay 15$ "fine" for playing 4-5 days out of a month? Nop, I don't think so.
And as someone unknown stated that people were predicting that f2p is the future 10 years ago, um hello o.o" 10 years ago there was no WoW, neither any F2P games with the quality of today's games, so yeah - your argument is invalid. And if you care to notice the bussines model of the last ... say, 10 games, you will see that developers are moving away of P2P. I think that at some point in the future when the sheep get their shit straight and start looking for something else other than pandas fighting dragons, even a titan like WoW will either go F2P or completely shut down. Just to clarify - I'm not saying that this will happen tomorrow, or next week or when the next supposed "WoW killer" comes around.
TL;DR - Yes I think P2P is thing of the past, but I wouldn't like to see a complete F2P future either. B2P with vanity items and "trials" (like in eve online) *should* be the way to go, this is the most convenient thing in my opinion to both the developer and the consumer.
a) Data shows that most players do not pay. Next time, use google.
http://www.superdataresearch.com/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/
"Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs"
b) in GENERAL, they pay LESS than a sub.
"On average, they will spend $127 for the full year" .. that is less than $15 a month.
c) I play STO for years ... i paid nothing. You statement is just wrong.
atleast Blizzard is doing this:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/08/04/world-of-warcraft-charity-pet-sales-contribute-1-9m-to-tsunami-relief-efforts/
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/11/30/world-of-warcraft-charity-pets-now-on-sale/
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/6952162/
Can you link to data that supports that? Not forum math about what it can cost if you want to have the best of everything, but something that supports your statement that x years of playing a F2P game usually results in the player spending more than had it been a sub game. It seems like you're making some odd assumptions about how and when players spend money, so I'm interested on what facts or reports that statement is based on.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you play each game a month or 2 F2P is indeed cheaper. If you on the other hand play a game for years and play the high endgame F2P is usually more expensive. Lets face it, EA use the payment method that earns them most money and they plan to make all games F2P including single player game. And EA arent a company that just would give away stuff out of the kindness of their hearts so F2P earns more money which also means people generally pay more for it. Some people do pay nothing or very little but generally people actually p
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.