So this is a PvP only game?

jinxxed0jinxxed0 Member UncommonPosts: 841

I've looked at the kick starter and listened to part of a long interview and heard the devs talk about aspects of the game. Then I saw this on the kickstarter: "All leveling will come from engaging in the game’s RvR-based systems".

 

It guess this pretty much answers my question. So with this said, I'm wonder why the game is so largely popular and hyped up. I mean, I'm not saying this bad at all. However, unless the pvp crowd grew over night, I'm a bit confused because this seems like it's going to just a be a massive death match game. Thinking about an MMO that is "pvp only" with some NPC interaction just makes me think about All Points Bulletin. I remember very clearly how much that game was praise so much and loved by millions *before* it came out. Then it releases and you all know what happened after that.

 

I'm honestly not trying to start a debate, I'm really not. I'm just wondering why a pvp only game is so popular. I'm almost certain there is something I'm over looking that will make me want to play this game. For now I can only assume that pvp has gotten more popular with MMO gamers. When speaking with people in other games, they all speak about how they're looking forward to the game, yet when I say "Isn't that game pvp only", they either wont answer or will say "oh, I'm not sure, I don't think so." So maybe it isn't pvp only in that case? I'll go ahead call myself an idiot for not reading something specific to save everyone the trouble, lol.

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Comments

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAMember Posts: 7,928

    i can only speak for myself but as someone who normally does PVE through the leveling and does PVP as endgame i'm very interested in this game. I never cared for DAOC but like some of its systems.. now for me games that split the game to half PVE and half PVP always ends up with one being very lackluster or not every fleshed out.. some have GREAT leveling experiences then you get to endgame PVP and its just a mess. 

    Personally I'm no raider, no gear grinder. So i love the idea of horizontal progression and having LOTS of abilities. Also listening to the lore and the depths and the crafting and the building. Game really just has so many great ideas for an amazing RvR game.. so overall I'm fine with the no PVE progression as their are already a butload of games with it and ones coming.. if a game can focus on just RvR and be truely brilliant in it i think it will be an amazingly good time and that's why I'm interested and backing the project

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • ArbroathArbroath Depew, NYMember UncommonPosts: 176
    It is a mostly PvP game. There are other elements, such as crafting and building that don't have to revolve around PvP. But the number of games out there that are PvE till endgame, are numerous. It's when you get to that endgame, GW2 for example, and all there is to do is PvP. But unfortunately, the PvP isn't very robust. This game seems to have a much better system planned. The economy is completely player driven. And crafters/builders have an important place in the game. Not just an after thought. There will be PvE elements to the game. You just can't level from them. I find the whole thing quite interesting, and have backed it because of that.

    It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath

  • chrissreefchrissreef Los Angeles, CAMember Posts: 24

    The game is being developed as a Niche game. There isn’t a “real pvp” game out there so pvp players play pve games that add pvp in… which feels like an afterthought. There is instancing, little realm pride, rewards or teamwork for the pvp portions because millions have been put  into the pve and graphics content.

    Most of the push is coming from ex daoc players. There was no instancing, the world have pvp objectives and pride (castles which you had to capture and defend from other realms at all times like the real world… they could be attacked at 2am while you’re sleeping and you would have to try to take it back the next day) and pvp gave you “realm points” which you could spend on additional abilities not available as you leveled up your character to lvl 50. I would have my leveling abilities (15 for example) and then as I killed more people I gained additional points which I could spend on abilities based on my play style. It would take months/years to earn 40 realm points to spend but over that time you became slowly more powerful.

    Pve to pvp players is about puzzles, repeatable AI, stories etc. pvp players like improving their skill against unpredictable enemies and developing their character through that. Even without realm points, I would play it b/c I enjoy the challenge of fighting each person I come across – each is different. In pve I know exactly what will happen… I’ll attack on my terms, use abilities 1-5, the npc will die and I get 5 gold – the end. In pvp I never know what the other guy is going to try to use or which way he will run – that’s why I like pvp. a 1v1 fight could take 5 minutes or 30 seconds depending on the skill etc. of the enemy. The idea of owning a castle and gathering your side together for a counter attack or to get a relic back (to prevent the other side from having 10% higher damage and easier access to resources/gold) is critical to social and realm pride. I could put together 3 people for a sneak attack or 50 - changing strategy is key - nothing out there offers this and I’d rather spend $$$ than play another pve centered game with a pvp instance/add on and “waste” my time in semi-fun.

    If you choose not to back this... at least try it out. This is REAL pvp and you will see the difference once you've experienced it. (the high $$ per backer is evidence how ticked off pvp players are with what's out there)

    Oh, I'm also glad to support an indi studio vs EA that cares more about $$ than developing/listening what their customers want.

     

    Back this - join the dark side ;P

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVMember UncommonPosts: 322

    Some people like PvP.  Not all, not even most, but some.  That has been MJ's pitch all along.  He wants to make a game for those people who just want to PvP.  He has no intention of creating "mass appeal" for this game.

    I loved DAoC.  Mainly for the PvP but I also enjoyed its PvE content, for the most part.  That said, I loathe, hate and despise raids.  I have neither the time nor the patience for them and I just find them unanimously boring.

    If a game has a PvP component... and gear obtained only through PvE raids will make someone substantially more powerful... then that PvP is inheirantly flawed. (see: WoW, ToA, WAR)  I think MJ is trying to eliminate this paradigm.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • chrissreefchrissreef Los Angeles, CAMember Posts: 24
    also - pve there's an end to the story once you complete the quest or get the gear you want. pvp with castles to defend in a living world... there's never an end.
  • MkilbrideMkilbride Hooksett, NHMember UncommonPosts: 642

    http://camelotunchainedfaq.wikispaces.com/Camelot+Unchained+FAQ

     

    Shall answer all your questions

     

    Emergent gameplay.

    Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  • chrissreefchrissreef Los Angeles, CAMember Posts: 24

    One more thing and then I gotta go. 

    pve - is like a dime a dozen... everyone's doing it

    pvp - rare to do it right... it's like the black swan... which makes it popular among the diehards.

     

    in bar terms, my ex was a 10. I've been going to bars for years and always see 7's but tonight there's one 10... I'll go for the 10... or die trying lol i've slept with too many 7's and it's only fun for a while

     

    wow, ok time to go...

  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABMember Posts: 397
    Go watch some good daoc videos of massive battles and tell me it isn't epic
    Or go back to fighting the ai

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAMember Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
    Go watch some good daoc videos of massive battles and tell me it isn't epic
    Or go back to fighting the ai

    i'm sure they were epic when you were in them fighting... but watching them now on youtube.. ugh..  i tried not long after I first heard about this project but game just looks awful for todays standards :P unless its cartoony like wow they just don't age well after a decade

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • MoraxoMoraxo VispMember Posts: 17

    First, it isn’t as popular as it may seem right now. The KickStarter campaign is nearly over, and there are lots of enthusiastic and very passionate backers out there drawing attention to it. The game’s not even trying to be popular, with a target player base of maybe 50’000-100’000 players it’s indeed very niche.

    Next, I don’t share the “massive death match” point of view. There can be a lot more to PvP than just amassing kills, as Dark Age of Camelot has shown. Hence the term RvR instead of PvP. You’re not just “fighting for the heck of it”; you’ll be helping your Realm. Building, taking, holding and destroying keeps and other valuable structures. Fight over control of Mines and Dungeons, Artifacts and Relics. That seems a lot more consequential and meaningful to me, but maybe we just have different definitions of death match ;)

    It’s not all PvP, either. They’ve talked of 3 Pillars of gameplay, which besides RvR are housing and crafting. You become a renowned armorsmith, or build the most intricate traps imaginable, or the most beautiful houses. You might have a blast playing and helping your realm without ever killing another player.

    The way I like to think of Camelot Unchained is that it actually has all the things that any other great MMORPG offers through PvE, just instead of being scripted and predictable it’s gonna be entirely player driven. Instead of Mobs in a dungeon, you’ll have enemy players attacking you in a mine. Instead of getting a quest from an NPC, a crafter may hire you to protect him on his trip. Instead of having PvE Raids, you have to conquer the Depths and defend yourself against player controlled (Boss)mobs and traps the other realm may have left behind. Instead of epic loot drops, you’ll get to mine rare materials (both equals top-end gear). Instead of an epic NPC story arc, you make your own epic story arc with the rise and fall of your character, your guild, your town, your realm…

    I could imagine NPC quests have a place in this game too, if only for giving insights into the lore. DAoC did an outstanding job in this regard.

    But at the end of the day, that’s not everyone’s cup of tea. The majority of players prefer a fair game, this isn’t it. There will be no equal-number instanced battlegrounds, no safety-nets to prevent you from dying to zergs, just you and the open world. You may constantly be the underdog-realm with fewer resources. You may even have your house burnt down without actually being able to do much about it. That’s part of the kick, and part of the reason why the community is so tightly knit. You have to rely on others, and you have to play your part if you truly want to achieve something.

     

    Phew, wrote way more than I was going to but I couldn't get myself to leave any of it out... I guess I'm a lost cause when it comes to CU :)

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYMember Posts: 722
    Originally posted by Moraxo
    First, it isn’t as popular as it may seem right now. The KickStarter campaign is nearly over, and there are lots of enthusiastic and very passionate backers out there drawing attention to it. The game’s not even trying to be popular, with a target player base of maybe 50’000-100’000 players it’s indeed very niche. Next, I don’t share the “massive death match” point of view. There can be a lot more to PvP than just amassing kills, as Dark Age of Camelot has shown. Hence the term RvR instead of PvP. You’re not just “fighting for the heck of it”; you’ll be helping your Realm. Building, taking, holding and destroying keeps and other valuable structures. Fight over control of Mines and Dungeons, Artifacts and Relics. That seems a lot more consequential and meaningful to me, but maybe we just have different definitions of death match ;) It’s not all PvP, either. They’ve talked of 3 Pillars of gameplay, which besides RvR are housing and crafting. You become a renowned armorsmith, or build the most intricate traps imaginable, or the most beautiful houses. You might have a blast playing and helping your realm without ever killing another player. The way I like to think of Camelot Unchained is that it actually has all the things that any other great MMORPG offers through PvE, just instead of being scripted and predictable it’s gonna be entirely player driven. Instead of Mobs in a dungeon, you’ll have enemy players attacking you in a mine. Instead of getting a quest from an NPC, a crafter may hire you to protect him on his trip. Instead of having PvE Raids, you have to conquer the Depths and defend yourself against player controlled (Boss)mobs and traps the other realm may have left behind. Instead of epic loot drops, you’ll get to mine rare materials (both equals top-end gear). Instead of an epic NPC story arc, you make your own epic story arc with the rise and fall of your character, your guild, your town, your realm… I could imagine NPC quests have a place in this game too, if only for giving insights into the lore. DAoC did an outstanding job in this regard. But at the end of the day, that’s not everyone’s cup of tea. The majority of players prefer a fair game, this isn’t it. There will be no equal-number instanced battlegrounds, no safety-nets to prevent you from dying to zergs, just you and the open world. You may constantly be the underdog-realm with fewer resources. You may even have your house burnt down without actually being able to do much about it. That’s part of the kick, and part of the reason why the community is so tightly knit. You have to rely on others, and you have to play your part if you truly want to achieve something.   Phew, wrote way more than I was going to but I couldn't get myself to leave any of it out... I guess I'm a lost cause when it comes to CU :)

    Excellent response, Moraxo.

     

    I am very much looking forward to the building and crafting aspects of the game and their interactions with the RvR system.  Frankly, nothing about this game reminds me of pvp arenas like AP:B.  It seems more like a sandbox with less PvE than most and more focus on RvR, building, resource gathering, etc.  I've said it a number of times, but I really hope this game evolves into a sort of EVE Online in a fantasy setting, albiet with even less pve.

  • Duvall_LoboDuvall_Lobo Mckinleyville, CAMember Posts: 10
    It honestly comes down to bringing back what MMO's used to be. A group of people (be it a realm/side/group) working together for a common goal. There used to be a lot of pride on the side you where fighting on. (Hell, I remember back in the day walking past a group of guys talking about DAOC and thinking "F'ing ALBS!")

    The idea is to bring socialization back into a MMO. I like the idea off cutting through the red tape of PVE leveling and making the "end game" the beginning of the game for all! Not a select few who put hours and hours into he PVE grind.

    Player controlled enemies > AI NPCs any day.

  • skyexileskyexile MelbourneMember CommonPosts: 692

    Im trying to come up with reasons as to why you would want to play a PVE game or have PVE in a PVP game...really...I am...

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLMember CommonPosts: 2,556
    This game WILL have PvE. It just won't have PvE leveling or quests. It'll have monsters and dungeons and stuff that you kill and skin for materials.
  • meddyckmeddyck USAMember UncommonPosts: 1,217
    It's popular because it's DAOC's RvR with some new twists such as building and the Veil and without the leveling, raiding, and gear grind. IOW it's (on paper) exactly the game people who loved DAOC for the RvR have wanted the industry to create for years ever since somebody ruined DAOC with the TOA expansion. image

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • Duvall_LoboDuvall_Lobo Mckinleyville, CAMember Posts: 10
    IMO, TOA was a good idea but poorly implamented. Looking back TOA was WoW is today....hmmm.
  • Niix_OzekNiix_Ozek Calgary, ABMember Posts: 397
    Originally posted by skyexile
    Im trying to come up with reasons as to why you would want to play a PVE game or have PVE in a PVP game...really...I am...

    There is no reason to be so restrictive... I prefer this to be a pvp only game, but only because in 2 years I won't have the down time to screw around pve'ing.

    A pvp game with pve, is different than a pve game with pvp...

    Pve isn't a bad thing, when you're tired of zerging ( do it for too long in one sitting ) or the action is slow and you don't like soloing, or you just need a break, PVE was and is a great way to get away, yet still be emersed in that world, either screwing around on alts with friends or alone... It's the whole NEED TO PVE to PVP thing that's the problem, remove that and they both merge together nicely.

     

    Ozek - DAOC
    Niix - Other games that sucked

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordMember CommonPosts: 7,207
    Well it puts it in a market where its only real competitor is planetside 2. You could argue darkfall, but a ffa game is a very different playstyle to a rvr game. In that a rvr game is more new player friendly, you can rely on 1/3rd of the players not to kill you.

    The other reason
    Pve has become so bloody expensive to make, its not like the old days of EQ, daoc, ac etc.. now you have to have voice and scripted animations and other fluff.
  • professornomosprofessornomos Mankato, MNMember Posts: 67

    The problem with simply refering people back to the FAQs is MJ hasnt really filled in the missing pieces yet.

     

    Here's my translations and assumptions about the MJisms as they relate to Character Progression and PvP

    (EvE was the last MMO i played and that was 2 years apologies for being overly dependent on it for my analogies)

     

    Sandbox:

    Its not a pure sandbox. That being said it appears to be the most Sandbox game this side of EvE.  Crafting and buidling will be major sandbox elements in CU just lilke in EvE.

     

    If you want PvE, this will be where most of it is at.  I imagine that there will be large and ugly beasts that players will need to kill.  I am willing ot bet that this killing  will help you progress your combat skills (see below) but they wont have loot drops.  Beasts are primarily useful for materials they have on them.

     

    RvR/PvP progression: 

    There is not a strict XP progression (ala WoW/PVE grinding) but more like a "class skill progression" ala Skyrim.   MJ reguarly mentions that if you swing your sword a 1000 times you'll be better at it than someone who just started.

    As such you wont really need to "grind" but you will need to play.   I am willing to bet that swinging swords at  players (and using positionals/reactionary skills)  will grant you a faster leveling than swining swords at beasties for material collection.

     

    Safe zones vs RvR zones: 

    Again Here I think MJ is borrowing alot from EvE and less from DAoC.  I  DO NOT expect the momemnt  a player sets foot out side of the SAFE zone its full on nullsec or even lowsec space.   Rather I expect a gradient approach where the King's troops provide more support to players close to the city (think EvE .7/.6 space), less support farther away.  Eventually the players will be 100% on their on.
     

     

    Dungeons/Bubbles:

    These will be not unlike the asteroid belts, ice fields and gas clouds in EvE.  Generally, they will be more "zones" than open areas but they will be openly accessible to the enemy.  Assaults in Force/8 man Raider Parties will be able to savage unsuspecting miners.

     

     

     

  • DanwarrDanwarr Grove City, PAMember CommonPosts: 185
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    The other reason
    Pve has become so bloody expensive to make, its not like the old days of EQ, daoc, ac etc.. now you have to have voice and scripted animations and other fluff.

    Exactly this. I do enjoy PvE quests the first time, but by end it becomes more of a chore to do PvE questing than an enjoyable narrative experience.

    Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
    Playing: ESO,DCUO
    Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordMember CommonPosts: 7,207
    Yeah he's taken ideas from both eve and planetside and stuck them in the blender with daoc.

    Which is good as they are the best 3 mmos I've played.

    .....from planetside - very little pve, the way resources work for siege equipment and the progression system is somewhat similar.
  • professornomosprofessornomos Mankato, MNMember Posts: 67
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Yeah he's taken ideas from both eve and planetside and stuck them in the blender with daoc.

    Which is good as they are the best 3 mmos I've played.

    .....from planetside - very little pve, the way resources work for siege equipment and the progression system is somewhat similar.

     

     

    Its definitely what excites me about the possibilites.

  • AnideinAnidein Member UncommonPosts: 19

    This is an RVR game, and like RVR games, there will be focal points such as keeps and relics.

     

    Battlegrounds will be in place, so if you have ever played Dark age, people of lower level will be in low level teirs of RVR.

  • professornomosprofessornomos Mankato, MNMember Posts: 67
    Originally posted by Anidein
    This is an RVR game, and like RVR games, there will be focal points such as keeps and relics.   Battlegrounds will be in place, so if you have ever played Dark age, people of lower level will be in low level teirs of RVR.

     

    True Relics will matter and thats another way this game isnt pure "sandbox" but Players will have the ability to be more than warm bodies.  They will be able to build defenses to support them.

     

    Pretty sure RVR its not going be as strictly tiered ala WAR or even DAOC.  Though I know he's mentioned some lowbie zones, I am willing to bet its really not going ot be BGs. 

     

    Remember there is not supposed to be strict Verticial Progression.  Think skyrim more than any other MMO

  • meddyckmeddyck USAMember UncommonPosts: 1,217
    Originally posted by professornomos

    Pretty sure RVR its not going be as strictly tiered ala WAR or even DAOC.  Though I know he's mentioned some lowbie zones, I am willing to bet its really not going ot be BGs.   Remember there is not supposed to be strict Verticial Progression.  Think skyrim more than any other MMO

    My interpretation of what Mark has said is that there will be the main RvR map that all characters can play in. Then there will be one battleground (in the DAOC sense of a separate permanent zone with uncapped populations and no time limit) that players up to level x (TBD) can also play in if they would prefer to only fight other players close to their level while they learn their class.

    Not having played Skyrim, I'm not sure what kind of progression it has that you are referring to. The RvR progression Mark has described sounds to me very much like DAOC's realm abilities just by another name.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

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