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Explain this idea of "Immersion" to me.

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  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Member UncommonPosts: 485

    I personally think that "immersion" in gaming simply speaks to the legitimacy of the game's premise.

    Take World of Warcraft, for example. Back in "ye olde dayes" there was no dungeon finder. Players would go to the dungeon they wanted to do and hang around there, or they would speak to people in cities to form groups. The addition of the Dungeon Finder broke the immersion, as it took a fairly straightforward crux that the setting of the game constructed and replaced it with a button. That button removed an element of the game world that had been constructed as a part of the fiction that legitimises the world.

    Skyrim is a great example of an immersive game, for the most part. Bethesda go to great pains to make the actions you perform feel like legitimate actions within the frame of the game's premise. The world - Tamriel - is somewhat believable.

    This all relies, however, on your ability to suspend your disbelief. That varies from person to person.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Well when you think about it,even group finder tools break immersion.

    We are suppose to be entering a world that pretends to be realistic and we are role playing our character and presumably a class.

     

    We are not "supposed" to be doing anything but have fun .. and that is different for different people.

    And yes, LFD is immersion breaking .. thus .. immersion is not everything. It should not get in the way of fun, however, i like it. And i would much prefer to break a little immersion, and have LFD, then without and immerse myself in a realistic tedious shouting/waiting for groups.

    "Realistic" is not always fun. Otherwse, you will see bathroom simulations in MMORPGs.

    I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. 

    Shouting in chat to get a group is obviously not immersive for you.  As such it is very immersion breaking for you.  Instead you prefer the immersive experience of running a dungeon with a group.  For you LFD is a tool to make the game world more immersive.

    Interesting point. However, i would say .. in that case .. standing in town, chatting with players passing by *is* immersive and a way to form a group. However, that would NOT be fun.

    Thus, if you compare LFD (less immersive) to chatting with passby in the town center (more immersive) to form a group, the LESS immersive option is what i think is more fun, and preferred.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by RandomDown
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Well when you think about it,even group finder tools break immersion.

    We are suppose to be entering a world that pretends to be realistic and we are role playing our character and presumably a class.

     

    We are not "supposed" to be doing anything but have fun .. and that is different for different people.

    And yes, LFD is immersion breaking .. thus .. immersion is not everything. It should not get in the way of fun, however, i like it. And i would much prefer to break a little immersion, and have LFD, then without and immerse myself in a realistic tedious shouting/waiting for groups.

    "Realistic" is not always fun. Otherwse, you will see bathroom simulations in MMORPGs.

    What if that sort of system was written in to the lore of whichever game it was in? Some sort of gestalt mind and I dunno, magical wind flies you there as a quick offhand example. As people state, it is the whole experience of the world, and the lore of it is part of that. So if it is built into the lore can the people really claim it is immersion breaking because at that point you would be the one refusing to be part of the world, and not just the game.

    Sure .. you can dress up a LFD as some magic stone that will link you with other adventurous souls .. you can even dress up instanced with parallel dimensions, and what-not.

    However, people don't really care enough about it for the devs to do the extra work. A little immersion breaking is no big deal for many .. otherwise LFD/LFR would not be so popular. Otherwise, instanced lobby games won't be so popular.

     

  • grafhgrafh Member UncommonPosts: 320

    Immersion is the ability to pull you into the game world. This includes story, lore, combat, and all aspects of the game THAT STAY TRUE TO AN ACTUAL WORLD.

    Dungeon finders that put you in groups with players from another world breaks that rule to me. Especially if you have no contact with that other world normally. If its a RVR server, then it doesnt break this rule that badly. Everyone from the other real should be your enemy, thus not able to group with them. But its not that bad if its allowed.

    Group finders also break this rule for me. Pressing a button and finding a group is too automated. It eleminates player interaction. Think about it like this. If you were in the woods, and you found a cave that you wanted to explore. Are you going to just go with any person that you see? Or are you going to talk with people and see why they are there, do  they want to go in, are they prepared to go in, Do they have the proper supplies, what to do if an emergency happens, etc.

    Mounts and way points and teleporting arent bad to me, and dont break my immersion rule. But group finder and dungeon finder MOST DEFINATLY DO!

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770
    Isn't it weird that with all the improvments to graphics and new features, that getting immersed in an MMO is hard to do now that it was before? Being immersed into being the character and living in the online game world feels like such a distant memory now as if it was past down over generations. Was it that those older games required more imagination to suspend disbelief? Were we more actively engaged because of that? Single player games are often getting more immersive but for MMOs, it feels the opposite.
  • DaezAsterDaezAster Member UncommonPosts: 788

    I would say people break there own immersion by over analyzing the smallest of things. We all have that friend you can't watch a movie with, without them tearing apart every little detail. While I was enjoying the movie your sitting there talking about how in 1816 cowboys leathers werent that brown etc.

    In the real world life bars dont float around peoples heads, these damage numbers are killing my immersion :)

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    I'll trade immersion for consistently fun and entertaining gameplay any day of the week.

    The market has changed too much.

    More so, I have changed too much.

    I don't really have time to spend an hour gathering my party and then 2-3 hours uninterupted adventuring through a dungeon anymore.

    As sad as it may be, and as terrible as the "veteran" in me thinks it is sometimes, I need to maximize the efficiency of my game time these days.

    So when I think of "immersion" and "immersion breaking" aspects to a MMORPG - now I am really looking at things like consistency in lore and coherent visual themes...

    Also things like unexplainable and unforgivable lapses in logic and common sense.

    Like in the movie Prometheus - they have these awesome floating mini-robot spherical things that quickly zip through a corridor system and digitally map the interior of a ship with freaking laser beams. Like, full 3D model bam instantly transported to the bridge of their expeditions base ship.

    Then not minutes later, the very scientist who INVENTED the damn things and BROUGHT THEM ON THE TRIP gets lost in the ship?

    Umm.... what?!?

     

  • imran_tayabimran_tayab Member Posts: 5
    Originally posted by RandomDown
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Well when you think about it,even group finder tools break immersion.

    We are suppose to be entering a world that pretends to be realistic and we are role playing our character and presumably a class.

     

    We are not "supposed" to be doing anything but have fun .. and that is different for different people.

    And yes, LFD is immersion breaking .. thus .. immersion is not everything. It should not get in the way of fun, however, i like it. And i would much prefer to break a little immersion, and have LFD, then without and immerse myself in a realistic tedious shouting/waiting for groups.

    "Realistic" is not always fun. Otherwse, you will see bathroom simulations in MMORPGs.

    What if that sort of system was written in to the lore of whichever game it was in? Some sort of gestalt mind and I dunno, magical wind flies you there as a quick offhand example. As people state, it is the whole experience of the world, and the lore of it is part of that. So if it is built into the lore can the people really claim it is immersion breaking because at that point you would be the one refusing to be part of the world, and not just the game.

    IMO it's exacty this.

    Immersion is how well a developer can explain their game using the lore. You could replace a dungeon finder with a Gandalfesque wandering wizard NPC that will organise and teleport you to a dungeon so you can run it. As long as it can be explained with ingame lore it is immersive and doesn't break the games immersion.

    Adding a new spaceship to a sci-fi game and saying it can find enemy ships using arcane magic wouldn't be immersive. 

  • Instigator-JonesInstigator-Jones Member UncommonPosts: 530
    Simple story that describes immersion for me:

    Back in my WoW days, I'd create alarms, wake up in the middle of the night, and camp for hours to tame that rare beast with my hunter. I spent a ridiculous amount of time 'collecting'. I feel absolutely stupid for doing most of it. I would dream that a rare spawned and wake up to go check. The activity permeated my thoughts, and I loved every minute of it.

    End of story
  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by Sunshinee

    So when I hear Immersion breaking as an argument I'm left confused. Are these individuals pretending that they are their own actual characters they see on screen and want to be "immersed" in this feeling of being in this great giant world fighting these evil beast as this mighty conquering hero?

    This is a serious question I've wondered, when I've gamed I don't do any of this imagining. Granted this whole thing might just be predicated on each indivuals playstyle.I'm mostly competitive and the type of person who likes to be on the top so I play a game to play a game. Not to feel like I myself am in this pretend virtual world. On top of that in a mmo, there is thousands of other supposed "heroes" running around killing the same mobs as you are. I just have a very hard time seeing it.

    Either way I'm curious to understand this side of the argument and or if I am possibly way off base and nobody does this? Either way, thoughts?

     

     When it comes to MMORPG then the highlighted red part is about as close you can get for me personaly that's all immersion is too me.

    That's the thing "I loved" about MMORPG you could immerse yourself as if being there in that "game" world. Now what I feel is immersion breaking is if a MMORPG lacks the feel of being a world. I said this many times I love playing game games but mainly if they are without the RPG tag. Enjoy plenty of FPS games some single some multi. Which is too me the perfect way to be competitive for me which doesn't mean that those who are competitive in MMORPG shouldn't be that way. To each their own. Also older MMORPG gave me much bigger change at being unique and not be among the so-called "hero"

    However I do feel immersed with many singleplayer on rails games but it's because a love a wide range of game genre's I expect perhaps too much from a MMORPG to go far beyond what a singleplayer or multiplayer game deliver. Mainly because that's what got me hooked in this genre, Meridian59, UO, AO, and what me fell in love with this genre was most definitly Star Wars Galaxies

    It really  isn't something you need to understand as everyone is different. Which is the only thing you need to understand.

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550

    O.P., most console gamers like yourself would have the same confusion. If you didn't start off with consoles, then I am more confused than you as to how you could *not* know what immersion is.


    Simply put, immersion is bonding with the game world. It requires, I think, playing in the first person perspective; and in a logical flow of time. Zapping from point A to point B is not natural unless you are a wizard.

    Plus I agree with everything Rohklaw, above, said.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by grafh

    Immersion is the ability to pull you into the game world. This includes story, lore, combat, and all aspects of the game THAT STAY TRUE TO AN ACTUAL WORLD.

    Dungeon finders that put you in groups with players from another world breaks that rule to me. Especially if you have no contact with that other world normally. If its a RVR server, then it doesnt break this rule that badly. Everyone from the other real should be your enemy, thus not able to group with them. But its not that bad if its allowed.

    1) YOu haven't heard of parallel dimensions? They are all over sci-fi and fantasy. So what if you pull some people from another parallel universe and group with them. Why should that break immersion?

    2) Secondly, even if it does, most don't care. I don't care. I am using a MOUSE to control a animated graphical elf on a 2D computer screen. It is not like you don't know you are playing a video game. It is not like you feel you are walking when your legs are not even moving.

     

  • JaedorJaedor Member UncommonPosts: 1,173

    Great topic and questions, OP.


    I think the word "immersion" is a bit overused these days, but for the non-RPers, it includes the attachment we develop to our avatars, and the investment of time, energy and money we have in them.


    A lot of people play games to escape from reality, so for those folks, "immersion" is a pretty good word to describe their level of engagement with their avatar and the virtual world it inhabits. While I think lots of folks don't consider themselves "immersed" in an mmo that way, it would also be fair to say that any time we curse at the monitor, enjoy a view or gripe about dying during a boss fight, we are engaged enough to identify with our avatar. And for however long it lasts, that's immersion.

  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785

    Immersion isn't limited to connecting to your character, but to how much you feel you are actively participating in the game.

    For example a game like star craft holds little immersion. You are always aware you are playing a game. This has to do with the perspective and that you are controlling many units and buildings.

    On the flip side you have FPS games which attempt maximum immersion by eliminating viewing your own character and putting you directly into the action.

    Often times you'll see that the quality/rating of an FPS is very closely tied to how much the player feels inside the game.

     

    So in most MMO's, you are wandering around this environment, but have to open a console to connect with a group and get ported to a dungeon. That breaks immersion. Now, each person has their own tolerance for this, some aren't concerned with this at all, others loathe it and a zillion others fall somewhere in between.

  • OriousOrious Member UncommonPosts: 548

    There are alot of good ideas on what "immersion" is in this thread.

    I think if you don't understand what "immersion" is, then it doesn't really appeal to you. So, convincing people that do not know how to explain it or do not care about trying to understand it is almost pointless... like an ideal or culture that some people simply cannot and will not understand without putting yourself in their shoes.

    First I'm going to tell you all that I am less than 25 years old. I am not an "old-timer", however, my first MMO was Lineage 1 back in 1999 time -frame. Did I like that game? It was okay. I liked Lineage 2 a lot, though...and then I flat out LOVED Star Wars Galaxies. You hear that line all of the time.

    So out of those first three mmos I will explain why something like SWG gives a DEEP attachment with the game that is mostly nowhere in most mainstream mmos nowadays.

    I'll begin with a Star Wars story i mage up 2 seconds ago.....

    What do you think about when Star Wars comes to mind? .."JEDI !!" Yes I know...but SWG was made before episode 1 came out I believe, so during Luke Skywalker's time there were a handful of Jedi.

    Put yourself in the shoes of Luke before he knew about the force.

    What could he do?

    He'd wake up one day (log-in) work on stuff around the estate (Player Housing). Then one day you might feel like going to town so you ride your speeder to the closest Tattoine cantina and chill out there and watch the entertainers (real players) dance and play music in a group (player musician group). You tip them for the nice time and the good feeling afterwards (buffed from the dancing and music). You walk outside and see what's being sold on ebay kisosks around (market). You look at all of the weapons and apparal and pets (all player crafted)..."Wait that is a cool weapon!" You buy it with the last bit of change you had on you. You get back on your speeder to get back home before it got dark.... The Storm Trooper shift ended at night and then the Sand People would take control. On your way home you see a Dewback nest and want to try out that new Blaster Pistol you got off of the market... possibly getting some Dewback meat to roast up back home. The family is busy making pharmaceutical products and would be hungry (stamina and intel wounds). You equip it. Lay down in prone position. You fire! Your heart races with the intensity of the fight (battle music). The once docile creatures start pouring out of the nest to your surprise. Head Shot....two down now. There's just a babies left, but you don't want to kill it so you get back in your speeder and wait for it to run back away. You feel sorry for the baby and proceed to try and befriend it, having realized you destroyed its family. It forgets about that and grows on you. It becomes your friend (the baby grows up too eventually).

    As soon as the sun falls over the horizon, you hear the pop of a Tuskan Rifle and a bullet glance off of the hood of your speeder. It was the sand people you were afraid of. Thankfully, your speeder is fast enough to get you home without any actual head-to-head confrontation.... But your home has turned into fire and rubble after a raid by some Empire supporters (faction PvP). You are a rebel, your friends weren't. They were looking for you.

    Immersion story end

    I could go on forever and get to the point where the character learns how to unlock the force and becomes 1 of few ultimate heroes (instead of everyone being a hero...meaning that no one is one). Sure you could make a story about the current themepark, but most of that story would include a pre-made script. Every character would not only be elligible for that same story, but they often MUST go through the same story as the previous guy. They are guided through it.

    Immersive mmorpgs have the ability to give you a "life" story that is unique with respect to most everyone. The only thing that seperates your character from another character is the adventure that you personally make. This includes the weapons, skills, stats, friends, estate, and items you've acquired. In most themepark games, your adventure is already pre-determined by simply picking your class (Now that you've picked that class...you're level one so you have these quests and these items to get until level 2 and etc. until level maxed, where you still do X and Y like everyone else because that is ALL there is to it).

    There's a lot of stuff to do just like in an amusemant park, but after you've seen one you pretty much know the story that people will tell you after they go to one. In life, it's amazing how many different stories you get from person to person.

    Immersion vs Accessibility

    I know people are going to say... "A game shouldn't be life." That's true for some people (those people that enjoy lobby mmorpgs) and not true for others...why do you think there are SIM games anyway??

    I personally don't want perma-death. I also don't want it to take 10 years to be proficient at my role. You know what? I also don't mind the auction houses, instant teleportation, dungeon-finder IF IT MAKES SENSE IN THE GAME!! If there's an auction house and people can get stuff from all the way across the world... how come that is possible in this world? Magic? Sci-fi? That's fine.. so what's the catch then? You can't make something out of nothing. Instant travel? How can it be instant...that typically doesn't make any sense. All of these little base-less things build up and become big to someone who wants to be in a living world where there are few "short-cuts" to skip the story of your character. Stories would be very boring if in between each encounter your main character waits in que for a dungeon or arena that they had ALREADY been in SECONDS earlier. Something that is slapped onto the gaming world that doesn't make sense in a world setting makes the game feel less like a world and more like an arcade or an amusement park where you get limited fun in a condensed, but accessible area. It's all about balancing the two... and nowadays your starting to see more and more indy companies trying to rebalance things.

    FUN

    In the end... for me immersion is very fun and why I liked MMOs. That's what I feel is the reason to have a massively multiplayer game..to build a fantasy world and allow people to "live" in. If I wanted to have a dungeon finder, and be able to skip half of the created gaming world pretty much 100% of the time, I would play Diablo or a console game. Console/non-mmo games do a better job at scripted events and many competative multiplayer aspects. I have way more fun playing quick-and-dirty console games than playing quick-and-dirty mmo games. Why are MMOGs a lot cheaper nowdays. You don't typically pay for the Box and the Sub for the big ones anymore. Most of them are pretty free. Why then do people still buy the 60+ dollar console games (that keep increasing!!)?... because the single-player and small-scale multiplayer aspects are better. You typicall finish most of those games in less than a month. An mmog typically gives 1 month free if it isn't already free.

    Then you have people that say "then play those quick games the long way and never use the accessibility stuff..." The answer to that is that eventhough there is very little immersion, it is a gaming world and if you want to succeed in a world, you have to follow the best route to success or don't play it. I rather would not play, so I might buy the box and play for a month. But I won't sub until something that's really INTERESTING comes along....instead of just another game.

     

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  • grafhgrafh Member UncommonPosts: 320
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by grafh

    Immersion is the ability to pull you into the game world. This includes story, lore, combat, and all aspects of the game THAT STAY TRUE TO AN ACTUAL WORLD.

    Dungeon finders that put you in groups with players from another world breaks that rule to me. Especially if you have no contact with that other world normally. If its a RVR server, then it doesnt break this rule that badly. Everyone from the other real should be your enemy, thus not able to group with them. But its not that bad if its allowed.

    1) YOu haven't heard of parallel dimensions? They are all over sci-fi and fantasy. So what if you pull some people from another parallel universe and group with them. Why should that break immersion?

    2) Secondly, even if it does, most don't care. I don't care. I am using a MOUSE to control a animated graphical elf on a 2D computer screen. It is not like you don't know you are playing a video game. It is not like you feel you are walking when your legs are not even moving.

     

    1) If its not part of the actual lore, then yea, it breaks immersion. Immagine playing a WoW, then one day they add cars to the game. Then a week later they add jets instead of flying mounts. Not only does it not belong or fit in the world, it comes with no explanation as to why. If there is a legit reason for why, and that reason actually has to do with the world, and not some simple "we just thought it would be cool to add", then it doesnt break immersion.

    2) To me this shows your lack of imagination. You may understand that its just a graphical interface on a screen, but Immersion makes you forget that. And most "dont care" is a statement that you have no proof to backup. It should be "alot/many dont care". Also your point 1 contridicts your point 2 in essence. You speak of sc-fi and fantasy and parallel dimension, yet you sound as if you dont follow it. Have you not seen .HACK//sign, or Surrogates, Sword Art Online, THE MATRIX? all of these anime/movies show excellent examples of what Immersion is.

    Please provide more FACTUAL information or your own personal opinion rather than TRYING to make stuff sound factual, when you want to discredit someones opinion.

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Originally posted by Hedeon

    Im not an old timer, and never use the term this break my immersion - especially it get silly to me, when people say other people break their immersion, since then it is impossible to play an online game..

    but I do hate dungeon finders, because it change my perspective into....this is just a dungeon/gear grinder, I hate when instances is easy to get to, as the whole travel through an open dungeon is what Ive enjoyed the most, in my time with MMOs....travel through a dungeon to reach a hard to get to place, having to work on unlocks for those places....making the instance special - aint even certain it is possible to get that perspective back for me anymore though, but it is what I used to love in a MMO, and at times get frustrated by : P

    but I dont play MMOs to play a dungeon/gear/level grinder...not to say I dont like abit of grinding

    My beliefs are much like Hederon.  Automated LFG tools did nothing but make MMOs Lobby based games.  Themeparks suck right now because they make instances and give you and automated LFG tool.  Because you have this tool you run the same 5 to 7 instances about 25 times in less than 2 months and get so bored of the game.  Why?  Because you see the instances to many times over and over and over again that the game itself is boring and holds little appeal for you after that point.  Instances were designed to run 50 times over the course of 2 years.  I never got bored with Vanilla WoW or BC instances.  Ever since the LFG tool get bored of these instances and dont want to play them.  I personally cannot get why people need them, I never need a LFG tool and always could get people run with me in an instance because I was socal to the point I made friends and kept in contact with them.

    Today there are no mmos that keep my attension for more than 3 to 4 months because of these tools.  People got away from why MMOs are designed.  Thats why they are not enjoyable to many people anymore.  

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by grafh
     

    1) If its not part of the actual lore, then yea, it breaks immersion. Immagine playing a WoW, then one day they add cars to the game. Then a week later they add jets instead of flying mounts. Not only does it not belong or fit in the world, it comes with no explanation as to why. If there is a legit reason for why, and that reason actually has to do with the world, and not some simple "we just thought it would be cool to add", then it doesnt break immersion.

    2) To me this shows your lack of imagination. You may understand that its just a graphical interface on a screen, but Immersion makes you forget that. And most "dont care" is a statement that you have no proof to backup. It should be "alot/many dont care". Also your point 1 contridicts your point 2 in essence. You speak of sc-fi and fantasy and parallel dimension, yet you sound as if you dont follow it. Have you not seen .HACK//sign, or Surrogates, Sword Art Online, THE MATRIX? all of these anime/movies show excellent examples of what Immersion is.

    Please provide more FACTUAL information or your own personal opinion rather than TRYING to make stuff sound factual, when you want to discredit someones opinion.

    1) The point is that it is trivial to make it a part of the lore. "A ultra powerful dragon spirit shows up and give everyone cars". Part of the lore now.

    2) Lack of imagination? So? I am playing an entertainment product, not writing poem. Let me out it this way. People don't care enough about LFD's immersion breaking not to use the feature. Tell me, don't you agree that LFD is a popular feature? Don't you see WOW actually expanding it to include raids?

    Now i don't doubt there are games with immersion. The question is ... would people care enough? Look at LOL .. it has more users than WOW. Don't tell me a lobby with a battle arena is "immersive".

     

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    I think immersion is suspending disbelief so you can play a fantasy character in a gameworld as you would here in the real world. It seems silly to think about until you consider mirror neurons. We can learn, show apathy and relate to others by seeing it happen. I believe this same phenomenon can be applied to being immersed in a world that at least holds to some relatable physics and principals.

    What breaks that immersion? For me it's things that don't "make sense" in regards to the gameworld. A major turn off is cosmetics that have nothing to do with the artstyle or genre. Second is a molded world that is designed to walk you in a predefined path. I read fantasy books before playing MMOs so I much prefer an open canvas to play in to make my own story.
  • RazperilRazperil Member Posts: 289
    Originally posted by Sunshinee

    Maybe this is the same old thread, just written differently but I know a lot of you old timers on here love to talk how certain features in a game "break your immersion".

    I've in the past have been in beta's and lobbied for group finder tools if they weren't present, flying mounts, instant teleports to dungeons etc etc the tools that make the game possibly more accessible, and weren't wasting your time in general.

    Now I've been playing MMO's since pre cu swg. I played WoW before all the tools were available, and I embraced all the tools I've mentioned plus alot more that had come into existence in WoW and other mmo's.

    I guess where I question people is at the point where I hear the argument that these break "immersion". I get how these things can be Anti social, but let's be serious with every supposed anti social tool you guys think exist, in any real triple AAA mmo that falls on each individual itself as to whether they want to be social or not. People have a wide variety of experiences with those tools like LFG tools and found plenty of people to be social using them, and vice versa.

    So when I hear Immersion breaking as an argument I'm left confused. Are these individuals pretending that they are their own actual characters they see on screen and want to be "immersed" in this feeling of being in this great giant world fighting these evil beast as this mighty conquering hero?

    This is a serious question I've wondered, when I've gamed I don't do any of this imagining. Granted this whole thing might just be predicated on each indivuals playstyle.I'm mostly competitive and the type of person who likes to be on the top so I play a game to play a game. Not to feel like I myself am in this pretend virtual world. On top of that in a mmo, there is thousands of other supposed "heroes" running around killing the same mobs as you are. I just have a very hard time seeing it.

    Either way I'm curious to understand this side of the argument and or if I am possibly way off base and nobody does this? Either way, thoughts?

     

    It is the same old thread. The immersion you're looking for goes back before you started playing MMO games, period. I, like many I'm sure, won't bother explaining it to you. It was before your time so honestly, there is nothing to explain since you'll never fully understand where that term comes from or what is meant by it. I'm sure plenty will tell you what it means to them; just don't expect anyone to unconfuse you. I know for one, being one of these "old" timers, I surely won't. You have either experienced it, or you haven't. That's all I can say.

  • WW4BWWW4BW Member UncommonPosts: 501
    Originally posted by Razperil
    Originally posted by Sunshinee

     

     

    It is the same old thread. The immersion you're looking for goes back before you started playing MMO games, period. I, like many I'm sure, won't bother explaining it to you. It was before your time so honestly, there is nothing to explain since you'll never fully understand where that term comes from or what is meant by it. I'm sure plenty will tell you what it means to them; just don't expect anyone to unconfuse you. I know for one, being one of these "old" timers, I surely won't. You have either experienced it, or you haven't. That's all I can say.

    And now we get this: 

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7328/Shining-a-Beacon-on-PvP.html

    Well its been building over years.. But man MMOs arent supposed to be eSports. At least not to me.

    Sure there is some appeal to being the best raiding guild or the meanest PvP guild.. But when it is given so much focus, it detracts from what MMOs are uniquely able to be an online virtual world where you can pretend for a while.

    Im not a hardcore roleplayer.. but every single character I have had Ive made a story or personality for. Nothing fancy or maybe not even conciously. But I play every single character in a different way. Even if I often break character because I play with people who know my main.

    It has always rubbed me the wrong way when an "MMO" tries to force a story on me with a storyline quest about how Im the only hope for the world.. Thats some single player crap right there.. I see all these other heroes and very few supporting characters.. and they are all NPCs. I dont mind NOT being the hero.. I might do something heroic and I might be A hero.. but  I've grown into that by only rising slighty above the average. 

    Sometimes my characters are absolutly not heroes.. They are just some guy that makes armor or who likes to fight but doesnt try for anything big.

    Modern MMOs have forgotten what they are supposed be and try to be eSports or a lobby for Co-Op mode for a single player experience.

    Players, that only started after MMOs truly got massive, wont touch a game where things take time, where you can lose your progress, or where you have to figure out what you want to do, rather than having quests flashing at you.

    It might be that this old school crap wont fly when its no longer the only game in town.. But the thing is... noone has been making that kind of game for 10 years.

    Its all been publishers trying to cash in on some IP.

    There have been a few attempts, but they have often been combined with FFA or Open World PvP to a disgusting extent.. And you cant do that if you dont have the backing to make a solid game.. If there are too many imbalances and exploits, the game will go down in flames within the year.

    Anyways I'm hopeful that there will be some new virtual worlds coming out soon. Some that dont have to cater to a specific IP or publisher wet dream of being bigger than WoW. Because, like a good car chase, it's not about how fast you go. It's about what's in your way.

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by WW4BW

    Players, that only started after MMOs truly got massive, wont touch a game where things take time, where you can lose your progress, or where you have to figure out what you want to do, rather than having quests flashing at you.

    That's because games that waste players' time and make you lose progression tend to not be very immersive.

  • WW4BWWW4BW Member UncommonPosts: 501
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by WW4BW

    Players, that only started after MMOs truly got massive, wont touch a game where things take time, where you can lose your progress, or where you have to figure out what you want to do, rather than having quests flashing at you.

    That's because games that waste players' time and make you lose progression tend to not be very immersive.

    Do they waste the players time?

    Just because you have to have to actually move to get where you want to go, and you might have to pass something dangerous on the way, doesnt mean your time has been wasted. 

    Now if there was nothing at the end of the journey,  you might have wasted your time especially if it was all smooth running.

    And is loss immersion breaking?

    How is this immersion breaking?.. If you lose you should lose .....SOMETHING.. If you can just jump back in where you left, then you might as well have been playing a singleplayer game with a save game function. 

     

    If you can just coast along never having to worry about danger then traveling would be a waste of time. In a game where all you do is chase shining exclamation marks, I do feel like my time is being wasted.. The people who made all those quests wasted their time too.. but atleast they get paid. Who in their right mind reads the quests in modern MMOs.. Aint nobody got time fo' dat. All players do is going back and forth between pointless quest givers, never giving a thought for other players or the virtual world they are in. They often only connect with other players to run a dungeon mini game, an auction house mini game, or some PvP mini game.

     

  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by WW4BW

    Players, that only started after MMOs truly got massive, wont touch a game where things take time, where you can lose your progress, or where you have to figure out what you want to do, rather than having quests flashing at you.

    That's because games that waste players' time and make you lose progression tend to not be very immersive.

    I agree with the losing progression part. Never did enjoy that. The wasting time part though is so open to personal preference. In SWG I enjoyed wasting time on things that would in no way progress my toon. I enjoy doing stupid shit sometimes just for the sake of doing it.

  • WW4BWWW4BW Member UncommonPosts: 501
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by WW4BW

    Players, that only started after MMOs truly got massive, wont touch a game where things take time, where you can lose your progress, or where you have to figure out what you want to do, rather than having quests flashing at you.

    That's because games that waste players' time and make you lose progression tend to not be very immersive.

    I agree with the losing progression part. Never did enjoy that. The wasting time part though is so open to personal preference. In SWG I enjoyed wasting time on things that would in no way progress my toon. I enjoy doing stupid shit sometimes just for the sake of doing it.

     I think you got that wrong. We were discussing timesinks; such as having to walk somewhere or sitting down to regenerate health or mana. Or having to wait 5-10 minutes for a boat or something like that.. 

    Wasting a bit of time sorting your inventory or trying our different dyes on your armor.. or seeing how fast you can run from one end of town to the other... well sure you wont progress, but I hope you had fun doing it.. Or what ever it was you were having fun wasting your time on. 

    But that was not what we were discussing :P

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