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Archage is the reason I trust CU can deliver on it's promises.

TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless ColumnistM, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

A few comments have doubted the ability to produce what CU is proposing. The reality is the current MMO crop has done so much to prevent evolution, and the games they pout out are so sub par we have lost sight of what a NEW mmo could be. Look at the other games in other genres. Look at the tech and design that they implement then look back to a MMO like TOR. It's obvious that more could be done to bring MMOs up to date with other games.

Then look at all of the features Archage has. All of the western MMOs should bow in shame. Archage has implemented so many of the things the Western devs claim they can't do it's laughable. The difference between can't and can't get permission from the execs is obvious.

Take everything Archage pulled of, apply it to a MMO that will start now and come out in 2 years, a newer cleaner Western Archage and suddenly the things MJ has talked about don't seem so impossible. Just because others have chosen not to try to evolve the genre, doesn't mean the genre is incapable of evolving. Oh, and don't forget, since CU doesn't have PVE leveling they will have far more time to make the RVR better than we've seen before.

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Comments

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    A few comments have doubted the ability to produce what CU is proposing. The reality is the current MMO crop has done so much to prevent evolution, and the games they pout out are so sub par we have lost sight of what a NEW mmo could be. Look at the other games in other genres. Look at the tech and design that they implement then look back to a MMO like TOR. It's obvious that more could be done to bring MMOs up to date with other games.

    Then look at all of the features Archage has. All of the western MMOs should bow in shame. Archage has implemented so many of the things the Western devs claim they can't do it's laughable. The difference between can't and can't get permission from the execs is obvious.

    Take everything Archage pulled of, apply it to a MMO that will start now and come out in 2 years, a newer cleaner Western Archage and suddenly the things MJ has talked about don't seem so impossible. Just because others have chosen not to try to evolve the genre, doesn't mean the genre is incapable of evolving. Oh, and don't forget, since CU doesn't have PVE leveling they will have far more time to make the RVR better than we've seen before.

    Archage is currently being refined for the western markets. The way it is now maybe different than the way it comes out here. Until we see how it comes out, under Trion's tuteledge, all is speculation on your part. Also, MJ said CU was PvP only, Archage is both, so far. You cannot compare Archage to CU which is so limited in scope.

     

    I get that you are excited for the game but enough with pushing this game. People that want to put money into the game, from this site, already have.

     

    We now return you back to the the CU Kickstarter commercial.

     

     

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Tierless A few comments have doubted the ability to produce what CU is proposing. The reality is the current MMO crop has done so much to prevent evolution, and the games they pout out are so sub par we have lost sight of what a NEW mmo could be. Look at the other games in other genres. Look at the tech and design that they implement then look back to a MMO like TOR. It's obvious that more could be done to bring MMOs up to date with other games. Then look at all of the features Archage has. All of the western MMOs should bow in shame. Archage has implemented so many of the things the Western devs claim they can't do it's laughable. The difference between can't and can't get permission from the execs is obvious. Take everything Archage pulled of, apply it to a MMO that will start now and come out in 2 years, a newer cleaner Western Archage and suddenly the things MJ has talked about don't seem so impossible. Just because others have chosen not to try to evolve the genre, doesn't mean the genre is incapable of evolving. Oh, and don't forget, since CU doesn't have PVE leveling they will have far more time to make the RVR better than we've seen before.
    Archage is currently being refined for the western markets. The way it is now maybe different than the way it comes out here. Until we see how it comes out, under Trion's tuteledge, all is speculation on your part. Also, MJ said CU was PvP only, Archage is both, so far. You cannot compare Archage to CU which is so limited in scope.

     

    I get that you are excited for the game but enough with pushing this game. People that want to put money into the game, from this site, already have.

     

    We now return you back to the the CU Kickstarter commercial.

     

     


    Please read my post again. My point was simply that all of the Western MMOs claim they can't to XYZ because of ABC meanwhile Archage has all of that and more so the Western guys are obviously either A. Full of it. B. Putting all of the resources into the wrong place ex. VO. My second point is that based on how much Archage has CU is much more doable especially considering it wont even put time and money into PVE. I fail to see how my logic if flawed.

  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    <removed by poster>
  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I see where this post is attempting to go so I want to stop this before it happens. Anyone who wants to contribute something to this thread please do, and please refrain from acknowledging any troll posts, after all that is what they live for, acknowledgement.

    So take your seats, buckle your belts, put your trays in an upright position and always remember replying to trolls is like throwing gizmo into a pool. Thank you and enjoy.

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    When I've (briefly) looked into ArchAge before, I haven't seen anything to excite me. What do you think it is doing differently than Western MMOs that gives you hope for CU?

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tierless

     


    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by Tierless A few comments have doubted the ability to produce what CU is proposing. The reality is the current MMO crop has done so much to prevent evolution, and the games they pout out are so sub par we have lost sight of what a NEW mmo could be. Look at the other games in other genres. Look at the tech and design that they implement then look back to a MMO like TOR. It's obvious that more could be done to bring MMOs up to date with other games. Then look at all of the features Archage has. All of the western MMOs should bow in shame. Archage has implemented so many of the things the Western devs claim they can't do it's laughable. The difference between can't and can't get permission from the execs is obvious. Take everything Archage pulled of, apply it to a MMO that will start now and come out in 2 years, a newer cleaner Western Archage and suddenly the things MJ has talked about don't seem so impossible. Just because others have chosen not to try to evolve the genre, doesn't mean the genre is incapable of evolving. Oh, and don't forget, since CU doesn't have PVE leveling they will have far more time to make the RVR better than we've seen before.
    Archage is currently being refined for the western markets. The way it is now maybe different than the way it comes out here. Until we see how it comes out, under Trion's tuteledge, all is speculation on your part. Also, MJ said CU was PvP only, Archage is both, so far. You cannot compare Archage to CU which is so limited in scope.

    I get that you are excited for the game but enough with pushing this game. People that want to put money into the game, from this site, already have.

    We now return you back to the the CU Kickstarter commercial.


    Please read my post again. My point was simply that all of the Western MMOs claim they can't to XYZ because of ABC meanwhile Archage has all of that and more so the Western guys are obviously either A. Full of it. B. Putting all of the resources into the wrong place ex. VO. My second point is that based on how much Archage has CU is much more doable especially considering it wont even put time and money into PVE. I fail to see how my logic if flawed.

    What have western developers claimed insurmountable that ArcheAge is doing?  A lot of what is in this game was conceptualized when he made Lineage 15 years ago.  There is some new stuff because this game is 3D and Lineage is isometric, but the politics, pvpve, resource competition, punishment system for pks, etc.; that was all there back then.  I'm curious what features has Jake Song and XLGames implemented that western developers can't.

    I also don't think anyone has said MJ and CSE can't do what they propose with CU.  A lot of people have said there aren't many people that want what he's doing.  Nothing I've seen in his core description of the game is groundbreaking or impossible.

    I have shied away from posting in the CU threads the last few days because I don't think your game is going to fund and I think it's rude to kick someone when they're struggling or down.  But I can't help but notice in these CU threads that you people love to poke at other games and how inferior they are and that they're all just sucky crap games.  I find that odd because most all of those games are successful to one degree or another, people enjoy them, and they're actually published.  It's easy to take a bunch of whiteboard writing and say it surpasses any exsiting implementation.  Wait until your whiteboard (assuming you get funded) meets implementation and then you can start taking pot shots at the rest of the gaming world.

  • steelwindsteelwind Folsom, CAPosts: 346Member Uncommon

    I very much get the point the OP is trying to make. The point being is Archeage released with more features than most MMO"s can hope to obtain with 5 years of expansions. It amazes me as well that they actually pulled it off and continue to add HUGE additions to the game to the point where it is really hard to keep up. I think it just equates to "stuff to do". This is the first game I have ever seen where I am confident that most players would find it impossible to exhaust the content in a matter of months like most themeparks these days. The amount of things to do in the game would even challenge the most hardcore to exhaust all the content in less than a year.

    Speaking as someone whom cannot stand the idea of playing another MMO for a few months before running out of things to do and having to move on. I am just not sure how this can really translate to CU since they are based in different countries catering to different crowds.

  • thecapitainethecapitaine West Chester, PAPosts: 401Member Uncommon

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge.  If Archeage or CU can push forward on those fronts then good for them-- it's the nature of technology to advance and make what was once impossible possible, after all.  I think what you're talking about in the OP, rather, is the dev tendency to say they won't or shouldn't do A, B, or C.  To me, that's a fairer point and one worth debating.  Having said that, however, both the games you mentioned aren't even in the West yet.  CU hasn't been funded, let alone developed, and Archeage is a year or so away, right?

     

    Personally, the evolutionary analogy always feels wrong to me.  When I read someone saying that MMOs haven't evolved in the past ten years what I'm hearing is that they haven't evolved in the way a person wants them to evolve.  Which is a fine sentiment to have but completely discards just how varied the games we can play now are from UO, EQ, and their contemporaries.  Having sat neatly in the mainstream pocket with games like LOTRO and EQ2 and SWTOR, I can see the benefit of new blood like CU and Archeage, along with their implementations.  Actually, I think Age of Wushu, despite being a game I haven't really been sold on yet, is just as ambitious and positively packed with strange new ways to play.  This is all for the positive.

     

    But, honestly, the devs of today have no reason to be ashamed for not rewriting the design book for every title they make.  No more so than a shooter or RTS dev that refuses to throw out the familiar mechanics that help define the genre.  Especially when there are millions of rea$on$ not to risk too much.  There will always be games that come along to toss things on their head but for the most part, like evolution, change is slow and incremental.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    LIke i always said, basically none of the big companies outthere dare to try anything different. They take ideas from small studios (after they could witness that it actually works), than they basically copy/paste the whole thing, with more visuals effects, they add some little stuff here and there to reach the mass, and Voila !

    The visionaries (but a few exceptions) dont work for big studios, they do their own stuff, then i.e EA buys them off, they strip whatever they can from you and your ideas, make it their own.....and scrap it lol.

    Some people are just agaisnt evolution. we can witness this everyday, everywhere.

    The game Tierless mentions does loooks good too, we'll see when it launches i guess.

     

     

     

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Barrow, AKPosts: 817Member

    Just wow, telling me to trust in Trion to deliver a good product after the dismal travesty that is Defiance really makes me suspect as to OP's motives.

    If you have funded CU (i did already) then you trust in CSE and MJ to deliver. Why in the hell would anyone fund a project that they did not have faith in ? Makes no sense.

    Just seems odd that the release of a very eastern sandbox by a very suspect developer correlates to a good release of CU. I would like to think it will be as good as CSE says it will be because i trust in those people to deliver, and by funding them that is how i show my trust.

    I certainly do not need reassurance from a developer (Trion) who releases a game (Defiance) in such a haphazard and irresponsible manner.

     

    Lolipops !

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge. 

    I've heard several say "we can't do housing" "we can't do a noninstanced world" "we can't do real time combat" "we can't do open dungeons" when games like Darkfall, Vanguard, AA, prove that it is entirely possible, even with tiny tiny studios.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 555Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge. 

    I've heard several say "we can't do housing" "we can't do a noninstanced world" "we can't do real time combat" "we can't do open dungeons" when games like Darkfall, Vanguard, AA, prove that it is entirely possible, even with tiny tiny studios.

    Source please? Cause everytime I have seen that its due to other factors. Ie developing the tech is more expensive than the return.

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Barrow, AKPosts: 817Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge. 

    I've heard several say "we can't do housing" "we can't do a noninstanced world" "we can't do real time combat" "we can't do open dungeons" when games like Darkfall, Vanguard, AA, prove that it is entirely possible, even with tiny tiny studios.

    Sorry but the "open world" of Vanguard at release was abyssmal. While i enjoy playing Vanguard a few hours a week now, back at release it was just flatout terrible, and the closer you got to one of those non-instanced dungeons the worse it got.

    Vanguard has a surprisong amount of good ideas for a PvE world, i am just not sure if those will transfer over to a RvR only world very well. 

    Darkfall was interesting, but i am not a fan of FPS/Melee combat, and well AA is not released in the west and as i stated above its being handled by Trion who i have lost faith in.

    Lolipops !

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge. 

    I've heard several say "we can't do housing" "we can't do a noninstanced world" "we can't do real time combat" "we can't do open dungeons" when games like Darkfall, Vanguard, AA, prove that it is entirely possible, even with tiny tiny studios.

    What the ... what kind of devs do you follow? Are we even still talking about the PC market or are you in some whacko bizarro world where MMOs get played on Wii U's?

     

    I mean no real time combat? WTF. Your chess client is not a MMO.

    I honestly have never heard any dev mention more than maybe the "we can't do a noninstanced world ..." usually followed by a because and a perfectly sensible reason. For example STO can't do it because more than 500 people trying to order a pint in quarks is NOT COOL. Even though the stupid ferenghi would prolly be having the time of his life.

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Barrow, AKPosts: 817Member
    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge. 

    I've heard several say "we can't do housing" "we can't do a noninstanced world" "we can't do real time combat" "we can't do open dungeons" when games like Darkfall, Vanguard, AA, prove that it is entirely possible, even with tiny tiny studios.

    What the ... what kind of devs do you follow? Are we even still talking about the PC market or are you in some whacko bizarro world where MMOs get played on Wii U's?

     

    I mean no real time combat? WTF. Your chess client is not a MMO.

    I honestly have never heard any dev mention more than maybe the "we can't do a noninstanced world ..." usually followed by a because and a perfectly sensible reason. For example STO can't do it because more than 500 people trying to order a pint in quarks is NOT COOL. Even though the stupid ferenghi would prolly be having the time of his life.

    LOL not to mention STO is made by Cryptic. . . 

    Lolipops !

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge. 

    I've heard several say "we can't do housing" "we can't do a noninstanced world" "we can't do real time combat" "we can't do open dungeons" when games like Darkfall, Vanguard, AA, prove that it is entirely possible, even with tiny tiny studios.

    NO - what you heard is, 'With our current game design and engine...' Please don't puts words into people's mouths that were never there.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • PhelcherPhelcher Boston, MAPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    A few comments have doubted the ability to produce what CU is proposing. The reality is the current MMO crop has done so much to prevent evolution, and the games they pout out are so sub par we have lost sight of what a NEW mmo could be. Look at the other games in other genres. Look at the tech and design that they implement then look back to a MMO like TOR. It's obvious that more could be done to bring MMOs up to date with other games.

    Then look at all of the features Archage has. All of the western MMOs should bow in shame. Archage has implemented so many of the things the Western devs claim they can't do it's laughable. The difference between can't and can't get permission from the execs is obvious.

    Take everything Archage pulled of, apply it to a MMO that will start now and come out in 2 years, a newer cleaner Western Archage and suddenly the things MJ has talked about don't seem so impossible. Just because others have chosen not to try to evolve the genre, doesn't mean the genre is incapable of evolving. Oh, and don't forget, since CU doesn't have PVE leveling they will have far more time to make the RVR better than we've seen before.

     

     

    Bro... u see so much, yet so little.

     

    ArcheAge has all those things because Jake Song payed the enormous cost upfront to have open world technology. When you have a real live open world it makes for a much better game.

     

    Problem is, without instancing (A develper's cheap way) there is a massive upfront cost to have the type of server structure to support open world games. Coincidentally, that is why a zones & instancing proliferated during the post-wow era and all these cheap mmo came along, limited by their own start-up technology.

     

    EQNext will also be Open World..      it is the only backdrop for a premium MMORPG. Anything else is just a salesmen trying to market a trinket to you.

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • Dren_UtogiDren_Utogi OuterSpacePosts: 1,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tierless

    A few comments have doubted the ability to produce what CU is proposing. The reality is the current MMO crop has done so much to prevent evolution, and the games they pout out are so sub par we have lost sight of what a NEW mmo could be. Look at the other games in other genres. Look at the tech and design that they implement then look back to a MMO like TOR. It's obvious that more could be done to bring MMOs up to date with other games.

    Then look at all of the features Archage has. All of the western MMOs should bow in shame. Archage has implemented so many of the things the Western devs claim they can't do it's laughable. The difference between can't and can't get permission from the execs is obvious.

    Take everything Archage pulled of, apply it to a MMO that will start now and come out in 2 years, a newer cleaner Western Archage and suddenly the things MJ has talked about don't seem so impossible. Just because others have chosen not to try to evolve the genre, doesn't mean the genre is incapable of evolving. Oh, and don't forget, since CU doesn't have PVE leveling they will have far more time to make the RVR better than we've seen before.

    HAve you played Archage ? What do you mean by "cleaner" ?

    reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge. 

    I've heard several say "we can't do housing" "we can't do a noninstanced world" "we can't do real time combat" "we can't do open dungeons" when games like Darkfall, Vanguard, AA, prove that it is entirely possible, even with tiny tiny studios.

    NO - what you heard is, 'With our current game design and engine...' Please don't puts words into people's mouths that were never there.

    You should take your own advice, telling me what I have and have not heard?

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Voiidiin
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    I can't recall ever hearing of a dev say that they can't do A,B, or C in designing their game unless it was due to a technical challenge. 

    I've heard several say "we can't do housing" "we can't do a noninstanced world" "we can't do real time combat" "we can't do open dungeons" when games like Darkfall, Vanguard, AA, prove that it is entirely possible, even with tiny tiny studios.

    Sorry but the "open world" of Vanguard at release was abyssmal. While i enjoy playing Vanguard a few hours a week now, back at release it was just flatout terrible, and the closer you got to one of those non-instanced dungeons the worse it got.

    Vanguard has a surprisong amount of good ideas for a PvE world, i am just not sure if those will transfer over to a RvR only world very well. 

    Darkfall was interesting, but i am not a fan of FPS/Melee combat, and well AA is not released in the west and as i stated above its being handled by Trion who i have lost faith in.

    I had absolutely zero issues at release. There was a half a second skip when crossing some server lines, but that's about it. Seamless when entering dungeons.

  • XImpalerXXImpalerX Maimi, FLPosts: 543Member Uncommon

    It is spelled "Archeage" not "Archage"

    Thanks

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,498Member Uncommon

    I'm going to have to agree with the OP. ArcheAge is definitely a AAA MMO, at least, the Korean version. The OP never said the westernized version would live up to those standards. All he is saying is that the original Korean version, pretty much blows current NA and European MMO's out of the water in terms of content and gameplay.

    The problem with American or even European MMO companies most of the time is, it's designed or at the very least governed by people who don't give a rats behind about the player or gaming community. They just make crap themepark after crap themepark, trying to find their WoW diamond in the rough.

    Camelot Unchained isn't a guaranteed AAA MMO, but it is an MMO that is going to be different than the same regurgitated crap we've had thrown at us over the last 3-5 years. Sure, GW2 tried to be different, but unfortunately, their designs weren't exactly beneficial. Maybe it's just me, but I don't care for the non-trinity system myself. As for SWTOR, sure, VO at every step of the journey can help with story immersion, but holy crap, no company can afford to do that, which is why their first expansion has no class specific story quests anymore.

    Game companies are trying, but sometimes, they hit and miss. I personally loved DAoC, except for ToA expansion, but DAoC was definitely one of my all time favorite MMO's. Depending on reviews, I may even give TESO a try to see if it will tide me over until CU comes out, simply due to the similarities to DAoC.

    Long story short, PvE is not the future and for me to say that as a diehard EQ fan is extremely difficult. MMO's need to focus on PvP or RvR and then add PvE if they want. This of course is just my opinion. I just don't see any PvE focused game doing it better than EQ, EQ2, WoW or LOTRO. PvE market has so many great titles, so trying to get a piece of that pie while it's still flooded is just beating the dead horse up a very steep hill.

    image

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,928Member Uncommon

    I am definitely looking forward to ArcheAge as it is much closer to MMORPGs I like than other MMOs in the market.

    However, saying that AA pulled it off is a premature statement, in my opinion. It does have plenty of features and I appreciate quite many of them, but can we already say that the game is successful? Furthermore, can we say it will be successful in the west?

    Despite the fact that I do not want it to fail, it is still a possibility to consider.

    On the other hand, I somewhat get your message, so dont take my post as an expression of pure disagreement.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • KaiserPhoenixKaiserPhoenix ViennaPosts: 59Member

    it's like saying Trion is the reason that i trust Blizzard in bringing more frequent game updates... lol

    we have seen so much of archeage and so little of camelot unchained.

    I doubt camelot unchained can even remotely reach the quality of archeage, even in the very narrow aspect of an mmorpg they are limiting the game on ( pvp) .

     

     

  • ZedTheRockZedTheRock Florence, KYPosts: 172Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    A few comments have doubted the ability to produce what CU is proposing. The reality is the current MMO crop has done so much to prevent evolution, and the games they pout out are so sub par we have lost sight of what a NEW mmo could be. Look at the other games in other genres. Look at the tech and design that they implement then look back to a MMO like TOR. It's obvious that more could be done to bring MMOs up to date with other games.

    Then look at all of the features Archage has. All of the western MMOs should bow in shame. Archage has implemented so many of the things the Western devs claim they can't do it's laughable. The difference between can't and can't get permission from the execs is obvious.

    Take everything Archage pulled of, apply it to a MMO that will start now and come out in 2 years, a newer cleaner Western Archage and suddenly the things MJ has talked about don't seem so impossible. Just because others have chosen not to try to evolve the genre, doesn't mean the genre is incapable of evolving. Oh, and don't forget, since CU doesn't have PVE leveling they will have far more time to make the RVR better than we've seen before.

    No the reason why most Western Devs, or Devs in particular will not do some of those systems that AA is attempting is that the vast majority of those systems are nothing more then fluff and have no bearing in the grand scheme of things.  Not only are those systems fluff but they are time consuming fluff.  Why concentrate so mcuh resources on systmes that so few people will do when you can devote all your resources on things like combat, questing, progression and group content.....those things that everyone care for.  Leave the fluff for other stuff, but give me an MMO with the all the filling.  Meat and Potatoes!

    SUP

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