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The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.
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There is no such thing as "best for gaming". What is best for me, is probably not best for you.
It is really about market forces.
Niche isn't a relative term. It means a market can be or is targeted by a specific product. The application of the term can be relative, but the using the term based on what it means is not relative.
People are trying to say the MMO market or the Sandbox Market is small by saying it's a niche market. Maybe they want to emphasize that the market is small and it's not going to grow? I don't know. Niche doesn't mean small. The MMO market from a certain perspective can be a Niche Market, but that doesn't mean it's a Small Market.
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Look at it like this. The MMO Market is served by many games, hundreds or thousands of them in the world right now. Their are many different kinds of MMOs and they serve a broad range of tastes. Even if the market was one hundred thousand people, there is not single product that serves the market. The only way the MMO Market is a Niche Market is if you lump all MMOs into a single type of product called "MMO". This means all Sandbox and all Themepark games are MMOs and they all serve a single market called the MMO Market. Using this type of reasoning, any market can be a Niche Market. The Food Market is a Niche Market because it is served by a single product called "Food". That means the entire planet's population is included in the niche Food Market.
You're right, the application of the term is relative, but it has nothing to do with size.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The MMO Market is niche or not depending on how you look at it in relation to the other markets it's related to, not based on how many people play MMOs. The definition doesn't depend on size.
If the MMO Market is a specialized market, then it's a Niche Market. If the MMO Market is not a specialized market, then it's not a Niche Market. Saying the MMO Market is a Niche Market and meaning it's a Small Market doesn't make any sense.
From the perspective of the Gaming Market, the MMO Market is a niche market. From the perspective of the MMOFPS market, the MMO Market is not a niche market, the MMO Market is the broad market within which the specialized MMOFPS market exists. If being niche depended on size, then the MMO Market would be niche regardless of the point of view you used to look at the MMO Market.
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If being niche meant being smaller, then the dictionary would say it meant being smaller.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It means that it is smaller than the larger market. Niche means a specialized market, specialized means concentrating on a small area of a subject (general google) or segment. Webster says it means highly differentiated especially in a particular direction or for a particular end, or designed, trained, or fitted for one particular purpose or occupation <specialized personnel>. Hmm neither the webster one applies particularly well, however one particular purpose is a smaller or more narrow purpose than anything else.
The MMO market is niche in the gaming market, as it is smaller than the overall gaming market, it is specialized.
The gaming market is nice, as it is smaller than the overall general market.
The virtual world market is niche, as is the themepark market, because they (individually) are specialized, smaller than the overall market.
Hmm kind of off-topic though.
Virtually everything is a sub-set of something else. Doesn't mean we should call nearly everything a niche market. We can, but it doesn't mean we should.
If you're the 3rd largest video game genre, it seems safe to say you're not a niche market.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Unfortunatley thats what it means.
Anything else is just a personal or a perhaps a connotative meaning which is rarely agreed upon.
It does, actually.. Not very clearly in Merriam Webster. But most other dictionaries directly say it refers to something small in atleast one of their definitions. Specificly a small market or how they are paired with synonyms like nook, cranny, or "a small hollow place, especially in a wall to contain a statue, etc, or in the side of a hill"
Ofcourse, when comparing specific markets (niches) to one another, one market can be bigger than another. MMOs are a subsection of a subsection of a market. Entertainment -> Computer Games -> MMOs. And can be concidered small in the grand scheme of things.
Also a niche market is very specific. Meaning that, that market wont be satisfied by anything else. Nor will, what is made for that market, be very desirable to anyone else.
And that brings us to the problem we keep discussing in these threads. They arent making MMOs for the same market anymore. The definition of an MMO has changed. The same niche still exists. But we arent getting our games.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nicely put
A niche market is the subset of the market on which a specific product is focusing.
A Niche Market exists as the market that a product focuses on. In this sense, the MMO Market is not a Niche Market because there is no one product that focuses on the entire MMO Market. Products are defined by their market niche, market niches do not exist without products.
* A niche market is also a small market segment. In this sense the MMO Market might be a Niche Market if it is a small market segment of another market. You'd have to define what 'small' means to fit this definition since 'small' is apparently open for debate. The niche still requires a product to target that niche though. Niche markets do not exist without products.
So, the MMO Market is not a niche market by being a small segment of the gaming market, assuming it is a 'small' segment of the gaming market. Without a product to target the MMO Market, it's not niche.
* This is where I get to eat some of my words because size matters in relation to niche markets. Niche markets are often considered to be small. Ah well. All in the name of education, even my own.
Yes, this is way off topic. This thread hasn't been on topic for awhile. I'm not even sure this thread makes a lot of sense, so good luck dragging it back on topic.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Actually, I would say that it the thread is exactly on topic. It's hard to have a conversation on something if the people involved can't even agree on basic terms being used. In the grander scale, it's impossible for anyone to create an "MMO," of any kind, if the definition is so nebulous it may as well not exist anymore. When it started out, MMORPG meant something fairly specific; now, it's becoming a general term so watered down, it's borderline useless because if it gets any more nebulous, it will be so general that any game with an online component of any kind will potentially qualify, rendering a large basis of this discussion entirely moot.
wow .. this place really like talking about definitions.
I would say let's go back to talk about why Devs are making games, and not virtual worlds. Very simple. Game sells.
You should all vote with your wallet. And if you do, and if the market goes the other way, it tells you something.
I think you look at it all wrong.
First off, very few posters say they want "just the simulation". Very few. Most of us want "fun" things in that simulation we want. We want that simulation as a foundation because we can see loads of fun things available to be put in the game that the Themepark style can't do without hampering the Themepark foundation.
"Given that, virtual worlds are a sub-genre of MMORPGs." I have no issue with that statement, but it's also true that Themeparks are also a sub-genre of MMORPGs.
"Tradition" doesn't enter into it, it's purely a matter of sim vs. gameplay focus. I don't know about "tradition", to me the core tradition is the paper and pencil D+D game. Even back in the days when I played that, my friends and I all recognized that D+D really wouldn't work too well for a "world" full of 1000's of players. The old game conventions showed this as tables were set up for level groupings, very much like Themepark games divide content by levels today.
But you're wrong in not including "game play" in "sim". Like I said, very very few posters claim they want merely a sim without game play. In fact, they almost always include game play that they want when they say they "just want a world to live in". Hunting, farming, etc., those are all game play. Yet, most of us want much more for game play than just that.
"MMO" isn't a genre, it's a description of multiplayer size." No, MMO is a genre. It's not just the size of the numbers, it's the social environment that comes with that. Most games these days have cut out almost all of that social environment except for trade through auction houses and a visually massive message board on a backdrop (what they call a world). MMO's are a different animal exactly because of the massive numbers supposedly, but rarely in actual practice, playing together in the same world.
Once upon a time....
MMOs have been out for many years now. Which way is the market going?
Once upon a time....
Actually, I would say that it the thread is exactly on topic. It's hard to have a conversation on something if the people involved can't even agree on basic terms being used.
People will always disagree on the meaning of words so your point is moot
< snip > it's impossible for anyone to create an "MMO," of any kind, if the definition is so nebulous it may as well not exist anymore.
The existence of so many MMOs would seem to refute that.
When it started out, MMORPG meant something fairly specific
No it didn't
now, it's becoming a general term so watered down, it's borderline useless because if it gets any more nebulous, it will be so general that any game with an online component of any kind will potentially qualify, rendering a large basis of this discussion entirely moot.
You haven't evinced anything to show it is "watered down"
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
MMORPGs came from Videogame RPGs, a different genre from Tabletop RPGs.
No videogame RPG ever replicated the tabletop RPG experience. Only a mere handful even came close. Most videogame RPGs are something else entire -- their own distinct genre focused on story, character development/progression, and combat which involves little or not twitch. Those are the three main traits of videogame RPGs, and they're the three main traits of MMORPGs.
So if we want to trace the routes of the genre back, we have to realize that when tabletop RPGs became videogame RPGs they were significantly changed, and that all RPGs along that line, including MMORPGs, have never returned to being particularly tabletop-like.
I don't include gameplay in simulation because it's assumed they're two extremes of a spectrum. On one side are games where all the major design decisions are made in order to simulate a world better, and the other side are games where "is this fun?" is the primary design decision driver. Games exist at all points along the spectrum, and the closer you are towards the game extreme the better you do.
MMO means what it says: massively multiplayer online. That's it. It's not a genre, it's part of the description of a genre. We're not going to lump MMOFPSes and MMORPGs and MMORTSes together because they're all substantially different games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Paragraphs and spacing please.
Cant be bothered to see if agree or disagree.
I'm on the opposite side of the fence. If I want a game, I have plenty of single player titles to choose from for that function. I play MMORPGs mainly because I enjoy the virtual world aspect. It's also why I've played WoW (well, vanilla/BC WoW, that is), City of Heroes, and LotRO longer than any others - because they do the virtual world aspect better than any other.
I know many here will argue that Vanguard is better in this respect, but honestly....I just can't get past Vanguard's character models and animation. They're atrocious. You know you're doing something majorly wrong when even LotRO has better models and animation than you.
Once upon a time....
If that's the thing that stops you from having a debate, I'm not really losing much. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I have enough going on right now that pleasing the grammar police really doesn't interest me all that much. I do what I can, but I can't do all the work for you.
First, MMORPGs are nothing like PnP RPGs. Their closest cousin indeed are video game RPGs which, in fact, are closer but still fundamentally very different from PnP. The resemblance between PnP and MMORPGs is distant. Just like Axehilt said, very few SP RPGs have ever come close to that experience, and MMORPGs are unlikely to ever come close to PnP. Stats, levels, loot... you might as well say a shark and a whale are close relatives because they both swim.
Second, twitch is about gameplay, specifically, hand-eye coordination, timing, reflexes and mastering the game's controls. Simulation comes into that only if the controls and UI are close to reality e.g. steering wheel and pedals for rally games etc.
And finally, perhaps an example would clarify some things. In simulation, the objective is to emulate reality. Some concessions can be made, but that is still the primary focus. In a game, the focus is fun; It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense in the real world e.g. respawning, trinity combat, instances etc.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Well it did help my tired eyes when I quoted it and it got put in bold. And I could read the 3 lines in this next post with no problems at all.
Turns out I do, in fact, agree with you. Except I still would like you to put some paragraphs in your longer posts. It helps readers a lot when they dont have to figure our what line they were on ever 2 seconds.
It also has something to do with grammer. But that was not my point. I would zone out in a verbal debate too, if my counterpart was just rattling off a stream of words, without making any significant pauses.
I think Narius might want to talk to you about that statement.