It's amazing how negative the feedback for 40 man raids is considering all the factors.... All you disappointed casuals, consider it this way.
Just as it has been stated a thousand times over, 40 man raids are not the core of end game, they are one path. Then there are all these other paths for the different niches of characters.
Have you thought about it? That there is a community of hardcore raiders and you are basically flaming their end game niche and saying they don't deserve it while asking for support with all of the others? How self righteous and self absorbed can you people get?
Carbine is attempting to give every group of players something they can do and yet you flame them because you won't be able to do everything. Casuals continue to believe that everything should be handed to them or that they should magically get access to everything for no reason whatsoever... If you can't put the time and effort into composing a group of people, then don't do it! Its not an amazing metaphor but it would be like being jealous and saying how unfair it is that a player has an amazing crafted sword, but then not putting in the effort to level your own crafting skill to get it because it's "too hard".
Comon guys.... its ridiculous... When is it going to end? Oh thats right, it won't, because humanity is imperfect, jealous, unsatisfied, and doomed to ruin itself.
Sad day...
Branifus,
P.S. I don't post often on the forums if at all due to the negativity of the gaming community and the lack of maturity therein. So the trolls can flame my numbers but my words above have consistent logic. I'm open to other thought processes, but within every MMO i follow i see the same thing.
Unsatisfied people every time...
Bro, let me give you some advise...go back to lurking...
The poll here asked a yes or no question...people answered honestly, in your favor might I add, and you rage...
Originally posted by Panzerbase Can't wait and by the positive 53% response rate neither can many others.
I really expected it to be like 20% considering that majority of the posts about raiding are hateposts, guess the 40man raiders don't really want to bother arguing about it anymore after all the years lol.
Haha, who knows maybe, but I think there is a solid core of gamers who want the big raid setting and I'm happy they are willing to give it a shot. I always thought WoW killed off the 40 man not for lack of popularity but rather to scale down design requirements and reach out to the casual base. I think if your game design is flexible every camp can be made to be happy, WoW just didn't want the hassle. We shall see!
Originally posted by Tayah No thanks, wasn't fun when I had to do it in WoW.
....you would of never lasted in EQ then if you think 40 is alot. Shame kids these days.
I'm not a kid, I'm 39 years old. I did arenas and raids in WoW for years. I'm no carebear casual player either. I do prefer more RvR games than the typical themepark.
I'm just sick of the same ole. I've been playing mmo's since Ultima Online. I just don't enjoy the themepark gear grind anymore is all. You assume wrong.
BTW I don't think 40 is a lot , it was just a pain in the ass to get 40 people ready to raid in WoW, there was no group finder.
I hindsight I can't believe how many times I forced myself to do ML raids in DAOC. My raiding days are done. I'll find other things to do in Wildstar (level alts most likely) once I cap out my first toon then quit when I get bored.
Originally posted by Tayah No thanks, wasn't fun when I had to do it in WoW.
....you would of never lasted in EQ then if you think 40 is alot. Shame kids these days.
I'm not a kid, I'm 39 years old. I did arenas and raids in WoW for years. I'm no carebear casual player either. I do prefer more RvR games than the typical themepark.
I'm just sick of the same ole. I've been playing mmo's since Ultima Online. I just don't enjoy the themepark gear grind anymore is all. You assume wrong.
BTW it was a pain in the ass to get 40 people ready to raid in WoW, there was no group finder.
Dam you are older then me, my bad!
EQ had no group finders period, or any ! over quest givers heads to make stuff stupid simple. It took time, and yes some brains to pull off raids....but it also built guilds, online friendships, and brought players together.......what mmo's lack today.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Originally posted by Tayah No thanks, wasn't fun when I had to do it in WoW.
....you would of never lasted in EQ then if you think 40 is alot. Shame kids these days.
I'm not a kid, I'm 39 years old. I did arenas and raids in WoW for years. I'm no carebear casual player either. I do prefer more RvR games than the typical themepark.
I'm just sick of the same ole. I've been playing mmo's since Ultima Online. I just don't enjoy the themepark gear grind anymore is all. You assume wrong.
BTW it was a pain in the ass to get 40 people ready to raid in WoW, there was no group finder.
Dam you are older then me, my bad!
EQ had no group finders period, or any ! over quest givers heads to make stuff stupid simple. It took time, and yes some brains to pull off raids....but it also built guilds, online friendships, and brought players together.......what mmo's lack today.
Daoc was the same way. We had hundreds of people for our relic raids and ML's. I liked that in the older Mmo's like UO, AC, DAOC, EQ, they weren't holding your hands while you played. I prefer mmo's that way. I'm sick of the quest, raid/arena gear grind most mmo's have become. Today's mmo's are just the same regurgitated $%#@, and I don't really consider many of them mmorpg's anymore, there's absolutely no community in today's mmos.
A lot is going to depend how 40 man raids are implemented. If it's little more than throw 40 random bodies together and you have a good chance of success than I don't see it as that big a deal. But it's also not going to be very meaninful either. If it takes 40 highly dedicated and focused people of specific class and makeup than it's going to e a exclusive club for a very small part of the population. There is probably a good middle ground but honestly I think that dynamic scaling events that can scale between those two extremes make a lot more sense these days.
I have been in public RIft's, GW2 events and Defiance Arcfall's that had way more than 40 people in them but that didn't make them difficult in any way. Numbers alone won't make it difficult just tedious to fill.
Originally posted by Tayah No thanks, wasn't fun when I had to do it in WoW.
....you would of never lasted in EQ then if you think 40 is alot. Shame kids these days.
I'm not a kid, I'm 39 years old. I did arenas and raids in WoW for years. I'm no carebear casual player either. I do prefer more RvR games than the typical themepark.
I'm just sick of the same ole. I've been playing mmo's since Ultima Online. I just don't enjoy the themepark gear grind anymore is all. You assume wrong.
BTW it was a pain in the ass to get 40 people ready to raid in WoW, there was no group finder.
Dam you are older then me, my bad!
EQ had no group finders period, or any ! over quest givers heads to make stuff stupid simple. It took time, and yes some brains to pull off raids....but it also built guilds, online friendships, and brought players together.......what mmo's lack today.
Daoc was the same way. We had hundreds of people for our relic raids and ML's. I liked that in the older Mmo's like UO, AC, DAOC, EQ, they weren't holding your hands while you played. I prefer mmo's that way. I'm sick of the quest, raid/arena gear grind most mmo's have become. Today's mmo's are just the same regurgitated $%#@, and I don't really consider many of them mmorpg's anymore, there's absolutely no community in today's mmos.
...I agree 100% most recient mmo's arent mmo's at all.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
I like raids. I was always that guy with MS paint and screenshots doing strategy photos anyways. I love that level of strategy in my fights.
I totally understand its not for everyone though. I am not much of a pvper myself and usually just do it with friends/guildies, but I generally do not seek it out on my own.
Ya you are right it was a bit of a rage post and i do apologize. It's just disappointing seeing all these people and how they respond. When you look at it from both sides with a level head, you can see how the feature is just being created for a niche and some are disappointed that without effort, they will not be able to benefit from it.
I'll try to keep the walls of text to a minimum but i'll pass on the "lurking" haha. My post had constructive criticism and i stated i'm open to other peoples views. While it may have been a rage, it can help to clarify to those who so pigheadedly oppose 40 man raids for no other reason than the fact that they won't be able to do the content.
Short answer: Yes. However, It's not the size of the boat but the motion of the ocean.
I'm a raider. I enjoy raiding regardless of the raid size. What I want to see is the evolution/revitilization of raiding. Remove the roadblocks that made large scale raiding impractical and implement systems that support your raid system throughout the leveling process.
Teach players how to play their role as they level up. Single player instances with an NPC support team for people to tank or heal for come to mind. When we reach max level and understand our roles, help us get organized. Have a guild recruitment resource that isn't a total clusterf. If you are going to have a raid finder tool, design it to teach fight mechanics not as faceroll content with free epics.
Finally, get rid of raid lockouts. Sure they gate content. They also eliminate my opportunities to help my community and limit the pug pool, particularly as the week progresses. After I'm done raiding with my hardcore guild for the week I would totally help pugs and casual guilds down bosses. I can't do that when I'm locked out. Limit my chances to get raid loot if you want but give me a mechanic that would incentivise helping others raid. I can quest all day, PvP all I want and craft my ass off, but god forbid I get too good at downing raid bosses.
Ultimately, I don't want Wildstar to bring back Vanilla WoW raiding, I want Carbine to reinvent it. Don't nerf content into the ground, open up the access and train people to raid effectively.
2) ready check for boss - failed because 5-10 people are afk (bio, smoking, eating, etc.)
3) 5 minutes later... ready check again - failed because 2-3 people afked while waiting for the original 5-10 to get back
4) 2-3 minutes later... are we ready now? nope tank DCed
5) 5 minutes later... OK, tanks back lets pu.. wait heal's gotta put the kid to bed.
6) 10 minutes later... Now everybody's here right? Pulling...
7) Bob the DPS ninja afked, eating that important to not eat boss ability. It's a wipe, return to step 2.
Yeah, I'm not going back to 40 mans.
Never really had that problem, the only one we had when our guild first formed was people not showing up. But after that first rough month we had a solid guild, we got to AQ 40 quick. Didn't get to do naxx 40 because of BC hit by the time we was working on princess huhu.
Ya you are right it was a bit of a rage post and i do apologize. It's just disappointing seeing all these people and how they respond. When you look at it from both sides with a level head, you can see how the feature is just being created for a niche and some are disappointed that without effort, they will not be able to benefit from it.
I'll try to keep the walls of text to a minimum but i'll pass on the "lurking" haha. My post had constructive criticism and i stated i'm open to other peoples views. While it may have been a rage, it can help to clarify to those who so pigheadedly oppose 40 man raids for no other reason than the fact that they won't be able to do the content.
Branifus
Well, I voted no, and not because I didn't want them in the game; that's not what the questions asked. I don't mind them being implemented at all, I just wont participate in them. I sacrificed a lot to participate in 40 man raids, even more to run them. The victories did not outweigh the frustrations and maintenance of bad strategies, bad players, and and other out-of-game IRL barriers. What started out as an adventure became a mindless chore. Nothing was worse than wanting to hang up the raiding but not doing so because your crew needed you. I was trapped by my own kindness.
I love hard content. I go all in brutal mode any game I play. 40 man raids was a different animal, though. I refuse to call it hard because of wiping when two more people were idiots. I refuse to call it hard when we defeat a boss that we wiped on for months, not because we changed the strategy, but because we rerran the instance to gear over and over to that point to get people the proper gear. Raidings requires unwavering dedication to game, or hobby if people want to call it that, that I jus't can't afford to offer it for the satisfaction it returns to me.
It's not all about seeing content or easy handouts.
2) ready check for boss - failed because 5-10 people are afk (bio, smoking, eating, etc.)
3) 5 minutes later... ready check again - failed because 2-3 people afked while waiting for the original 5-10 to get back
4) 2-3 minutes later... are we ready now? nope tank DCed
5) 5 minutes later... OK, tanks back lets pu.. wait heal's gotta put the kid to bed.
6) 10 minutes later... Now everybody's here right? Pulling...
7) Bob the DPS ninja afked, eating that important to not eat boss ability. It's a wipe, return to step 2.
Yeah, I'm not going back to 40 mans.
Never really had that problem, the only one we had when our guild first formed was people not showing up. But after that first rough month we had a solid guild, we got to AQ 40 quick. Didn't get to do naxx 40 because of BC hit by the time we was working on princess huhu.
Our guild only had 20ish core raiders that made it every week and then a pool of about 40-50 guildies that made up the rest so we never had the same group of 40 week to week. AQ20 and ZG always went smooth though
The problem with such a big raid is the number of problems it will cause considering the large number of people. Sure it can be fun while it lasts as time goes on and the deeper you go into the raid the difficulty and the time it consumes in a raid that requires such a large number of people creates problems as people may have other commitments in real life.
Not to say I wouldn't love to see it being made but it has it's pros and it's cons but I would personally like to see how it is implemented into the game.
Ya you are right it was a bit of a rage post and i do apologize. It's just disappointing seeing all these people and how they respond. When you look at it from both sides with a level head, you can see how the feature is just being created for a niche and some are disappointed that without effort, they will not be able to benefit from it.
I'll try to keep the walls of text to a minimum but i'll pass on the "lurking" haha. My post had constructive criticism and i stated i'm open to other peoples views. While it may have been a rage, it can help to clarify to those who so pigheadedly oppose 40 man raids for no other reason than the fact that they won't be able to do the content.
Branifus
Well, I voted no, and not because I didn't want them in the game; that's not what the questions asked. I don't mind them being implemented at all, I just wont participate in them. I sacrificed a lot to participate in 40 man raids, even more to run them. The victories did not outweigh the frustrations and maintenance of bad strategies, bad players, and and other out-of-game IRL barriers. What started out as an adventure became a mindless chore. Nothing was worse than wanting to hang up the raiding but not doing so because your crew needed you. I was trapped by my own kindness.
I love hard content. I go all in brutal mode any game I play. 40 man raids was a different animal, though. I refuse to call it hard because of wiping when two more people were idiots. I refuse to call it hard when we defeat a boss that we wiped on for months, not because we changed the strategy, but because we rerran the instance to gear over and over to that point to get people the proper gear. Raidings requires unwavering dedication to game, or hobby if people want to call it that, that I jus't can't afford to offer it for the satisfaction it returns to me.
It's not all about seeing content or easy handouts.
Couldn't agree more. The sacrifice is most often not worth the reward when it comes to organized 40 man raiding. Large group raiding is similar to trying to herd cats. It's difficult to get everyone on the same page, and even more difficult to keep those people interested through wipes. I have a lot of respect for those who have the patience to run a successful 40 man raiding program. I prefer a more intimate atmosphere when I am doing organized events in a game. Running with 5-10 guildmates where you can stay organized more easily, but also can have a nice conversation with. Often times I have found that larger group content becomes far too chaotic to allow just idle chit chat.
If a game wants to have options for large group organized content, that is perfectly fine, but I also don't believe that the end-all-be-all gear should come exclusively from that content. Scaling difficulty is a newish feature to mmos, but it's something that needs to be promoted. All levels of organized content needs to be rewarding as well. If a developer caters to just one group of people, they tend to leave others out in the cold, and that is something I won't tolerate from a mmo company anymore.
The reason EQ end game 60+ raids worked so amazingly well, for so long, is because if you killed a freaking GOD, it took killing the next more powerful god or super boss to even replace that item...sometimes those items never were replaced... Very few 'epic' loots were replaced by anything but equal or more epic boss kills....and as the expansions progressed, it took serious effort from players, sovling real puzzles in order to even gain access to the boss to even attempt killing. This created a very "this is fucking epic" feeling. Progression made huge differences in your character, and for bragging rights amongst other top tier guilds. Competition is fun. Challenging encounters are fun. coordinating a strike force is fun. This is why raids were successfull, not just because it was good loot.
the problem now is either old hardcore players just "dont have the time" to play like that anymore, but they still want to feel like they did when they raided end game phat lootz, so 15-25 man content is ideal for them, ...and.... that the casual gamer has taken over so much of the market that developers are afraid of introducing anything from EQ that made the game so special.
MMO's are missing the real "epicness" that 40+ man raiding offers. EQ would've never had the subscriber base as long as it did (or still does!), and if WoW did not launch with 40 man raids, would've missed out on the subs they needed at launch from the dozens and dozens of huge guilds coming over from EQ.
I'm pretty much dead set against any system where the raid has limits on the numbers of players, minimum or maximum limits.
Now there's nothing to stop anyone from trying to do a 40 man raid with 30 people, I remember back in vanilla WoW the guild I was in went and did MC with 16 one time, which was kinda fun. We got as far as killing Magmadar which was pretty good for such a small raid. What sucks donkey balls is when you can't take 41, and that 1 person gets left out. Sorry but bollocks to that and bollocks to your stupid fucking design. Which dickhead put that in?
It's the same problem that WoW and pretty much every MMO that's come out since 2004 has, this spoon fed attitude. This is a 25 man raid, here's a 10 man version. Such bollocks. Just let people play the content. I guarentee you that guilds will keep trying to one up each other by trying to take the least numbers possible. It used to happen in EQ all the time. Some may say that allowing limitless numbers to attend raids trivialises the content but most gamers are naturally competitive. If they beat a raid with 50 you can bet they'll want to try with 45 next time, then 40 and so on. And if your game engine can't support 100 people on screen in a raid, well go back and re-code it so's that it can. If MMO's could do that in 1999 there's no excuse for modern games not to do the same. In fact, they should be doing it better.
Anyone remember how it was always a big talking point when someone took out Nagafen with a new record low number of people? And this wasn't just on the server it took place on, but the whole community would congratulate the team that did it. I just wish modern MMO's would loosen the reins just a little bit.
When you think about it, the term MMO was coined to describe these new games like Meridian 59 and UO where, literally, hundreds of players could play together. If you start limiting the numbers to 40 or 50 or any number really, do you still deserve to call your game an MMO? Because 40 people isn't really massive is it? Obviously that's not a serious question but you get the point I'm trying to make.
Would I play a 40 man raid? Yes, but I don't like the fact that there's a limit there in the first place.
2) ready check for boss - failed because 5-10 people are afk (bio, smoking, eating, etc.)
3) 5 minutes later... ready check again - failed because 2-3 people afked while waiting for the original 5-10 to get back
4) 2-3 minutes later... are we ready now? nope tank DCed
5) 5 minutes later... OK, tanks back lets pu.. wait heal's gotta put the kid to bed.
6) 10 minutes later... Now everybody's here right? Pulling...
7) Bob the DPS ninja afked, eating that important to not eat boss ability. It's a wipe, return to step 2.
Yeah, I'm not going back to 40 mans.
That's a guild/discipline problem that exists as much in 10mans as in 100 mans, hell, can even be the same in 2man if you allow it. DC/lag problems was also something that mostly existed 10-20 years ago, not today. And another additional thing to expect from 40 mans - don't expect the same old boring tank and spank shit mechanics as you had 10 years ago.
I have found this sitet doesn't support raiding too much, yet, many people who do are, well busy raiding. This site has a lot of, anti-gear grind, casuals, and people who feel like sanbox is the way. This thread is jus tmore proof of that, they are the most vocal and pasionate, nothing wrong with that though.
The truth is, games that have established themselves as raiding games, manage just fine to keep and support communities, be it PVP or PVE raiding, the hardcore 1% niche player who cannot wait to see if they can pull off what they claim raid wise, like myself, help casual communities thrive. Right now I raid in Rift, and while its population is struggling its sure not because of their being 20man raids, its because Trion has dropped the ball, and are behind the curve. Raiding progression isn't a perfect system, but its one that is supported by communities, and will continue to be.
On a raid night we have about 26+ ready raiders, and recruit to keep around there, but we always have 10+ casuals who just pvp, or jump in here and there, play when they can and how they like, but they support us, they watch our streams and are just as excited when we down something.
Just saying people here have blinders on, they want to believe blanket ideas like, 40mans are fail. But from the people I play with, and know, if the systems are good/fun, and the raiding good/fun/hard, people will be all up in there trying to be first. The raiding community has been asking for harder, better, memorable, epic, more focused content for a long time, and its one of the biggest complaints you see from raiders.
So from my perspective its, not if people will do it but for how long, and that will depend on Carbine.
Comments
Bro, let me give you some advise...go back to lurking...
The poll here asked a yes or no question...people answered honestly, in your favor might I add, and you rage...
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Because you somehow concluded he didn't like 40 man raids because of the 'amount' or raiders from his reply...
Haha, who knows maybe, but I think there is a solid core of gamers who want the big raid setting and I'm happy they are willing to give it a shot. I always thought WoW killed off the 40 man not for lack of popularity but rather to scale down design requirements and reach out to the casual base. I think if your game design is flexible every camp can be made to be happy, WoW just didn't want the hassle. We shall see!
I'm not a kid, I'm 39 years old. I did arenas and raids in WoW for years. I'm no carebear casual player either. I do prefer more RvR games than the typical themepark.
I'm just sick of the same ole. I've been playing mmo's since Ultima Online. I just don't enjoy the themepark gear grind anymore is all. You assume wrong.
BTW I don't think 40 is a lot , it was just a pain in the ass to get 40 people ready to raid in WoW, there was no group finder.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Dam you are older then me, my bad!
EQ had no group finders period, or any ! over quest givers heads to make stuff stupid simple. It took time, and yes some brains to pull off raids....but it also built guilds, online friendships, and brought players together.......what mmo's lack today.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Daoc was the same way. We had hundreds of people for our relic raids and ML's. I liked that in the older Mmo's like UO, AC, DAOC, EQ, they weren't holding your hands while you played. I prefer mmo's that way. I'm sick of the quest, raid/arena gear grind most mmo's have become. Today's mmo's are just the same regurgitated $%#@, and I don't really consider many of them mmorpg's anymore, there's absolutely no community in today's mmos.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
A lot is going to depend how 40 man raids are implemented. If it's little more than throw 40 random bodies together and you have a good chance of success than I don't see it as that big a deal. But it's also not going to be very meaninful either. If it takes 40 highly dedicated and focused people of specific class and makeup than it's going to e a exclusive club for a very small part of the population. There is probably a good middle ground but honestly I think that dynamic scaling events that can scale between those two extremes make a lot more sense these days.
I have been in public RIft's, GW2 events and Defiance Arcfall's that had way more than 40 people in them but that didn't make them difficult in any way. Numbers alone won't make it difficult just tedious to fill.
Edit: NEVERMIND. Apparently it really is massive old school PvE Raids a la WoW. Heck no.
http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/what_is_wildstar_raids.php
...I agree 100% most recient mmo's arent mmo's at all.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
I like raids. I was always that guy with MS paint and screenshots doing strategy photos anyways. I love that level of strategy in my fights.
I totally understand its not for everyone though. I am not much of a pvper myself and usually just do it with friends/guildies, but I generally do not seek it out on my own.
Ya you are right it was a bit of a rage post and i do apologize. It's just disappointing seeing all these people and how they respond. When you look at it from both sides with a level head, you can see how the feature is just being created for a niche and some are disappointed that without effort, they will not be able to benefit from it.
I'll try to keep the walls of text to a minimum but i'll pass on the "lurking" haha. My post had constructive criticism and i stated i'm open to other peoples views. While it may have been a rage, it can help to clarify to those who so pigheadedly oppose 40 man raids for no other reason than the fact that they won't be able to do the content.
Branifus
Short answer: Yes. However, It's not the size of the boat but the motion of the ocean.
I'm a raider. I enjoy raiding regardless of the raid size. What I want to see is the evolution/revitilization of raiding. Remove the roadblocks that made large scale raiding impractical and implement systems that support your raid system throughout the leveling process.
Teach players how to play their role as they level up. Single player instances with an NPC support team for people to tank or heal for come to mind. When we reach max level and understand our roles, help us get organized. Have a guild recruitment resource that isn't a total clusterf. If you are going to have a raid finder tool, design it to teach fight mechanics not as faceroll content with free epics.
Finally, get rid of raid lockouts. Sure they gate content. They also eliminate my opportunities to help my community and limit the pug pool, particularly as the week progresses. After I'm done raiding with my hardcore guild for the week I would totally help pugs and casual guilds down bosses. I can't do that when I'm locked out. Limit my chances to get raid loot if you want but give me a mechanic that would incentivise helping others raid. I can quest all day, PvP all I want and craft my ass off, but god forbid I get too good at downing raid bosses.
Ultimately, I don't want Wildstar to bring back Vanilla WoW raiding, I want Carbine to reinvent it. Don't nerf content into the ground, open up the access and train people to raid effectively.
From what I remember from wow 40 mans:
1) clear trash
2) ready check for boss - failed because 5-10 people are afk (bio, smoking, eating, etc.)
3) 5 minutes later... ready check again - failed because 2-3 people afked while waiting for the original 5-10 to get back
4) 2-3 minutes later... are we ready now? nope tank DCed
5) 5 minutes later... OK, tanks back lets pu.. wait heal's gotta put the kid to bed.
6) 10 minutes later... Now everybody's here right? Pulling...
7) Bob the DPS ninja afked, eating that important to not eat boss ability. It's a wipe, return to step 2.
Yeah, I'm not going back to 40 mans.
Never really had that problem, the only one we had when our guild first formed was people not showing up. But after that first rough month we had a solid guild, we got to AQ 40 quick. Didn't get to do naxx 40 because of BC hit by the time we was working on princess huhu.
Well, I voted no, and not because I didn't want them in the game; that's not what the questions asked. I don't mind them being implemented at all, I just wont participate in them. I sacrificed a lot to participate in 40 man raids, even more to run them. The victories did not outweigh the frustrations and maintenance of bad strategies, bad players, and and other out-of-game IRL barriers. What started out as an adventure became a mindless chore. Nothing was worse than wanting to hang up the raiding but not doing so because your crew needed you. I was trapped by my own kindness.
I love hard content. I go all in brutal mode any game I play. 40 man raids was a different animal, though. I refuse to call it hard because of wiping when two more people were idiots. I refuse to call it hard when we defeat a boss that we wiped on for months, not because we changed the strategy, but because we rerran the instance to gear over and over to that point to get people the proper gear. Raidings requires unwavering dedication to game, or hobby if people want to call it that, that I jus't can't afford to offer it for the satisfaction it returns to me.
It's not all about seeing content or easy handouts.
Our guild only had 20ish core raiders that made it every week and then a pool of about 40-50 guildies that made up the rest so we never had the same group of 40 week to week. AQ20 and ZG always went smooth though
The problem with such a big raid is the number of problems it will cause considering the large number of people. Sure it can be fun while it lasts as time goes on and the deeper you go into the raid the difficulty and the time it consumes in a raid that requires such a large number of people creates problems as people may have other commitments in real life.
Not to say I wouldn't love to see it being made but it has it's pros and it's cons but I would personally like to see how it is implemented into the game.
Couldn't agree more. The sacrifice is most often not worth the reward when it comes to organized 40 man raiding. Large group raiding is similar to trying to herd cats. It's difficult to get everyone on the same page, and even more difficult to keep those people interested through wipes. I have a lot of respect for those who have the patience to run a successful 40 man raiding program. I prefer a more intimate atmosphere when I am doing organized events in a game. Running with 5-10 guildmates where you can stay organized more easily, but also can have a nice conversation with. Often times I have found that larger group content becomes far too chaotic to allow just idle chit chat.
If a game wants to have options for large group organized content, that is perfectly fine, but I also don't believe that the end-all-be-all gear should come exclusively from that content. Scaling difficulty is a newish feature to mmos, but it's something that needs to be promoted. All levels of organized content needs to be rewarding as well. If a developer caters to just one group of people, they tend to leave others out in the cold, and that is something I won't tolerate from a mmo company anymore.
The reason EQ end game 60+ raids worked so amazingly well, for so long, is because if you killed a freaking GOD, it took killing the next more powerful god or super boss to even replace that item...sometimes those items never were replaced... Very few 'epic' loots were replaced by anything but equal or more epic boss kills....and as the expansions progressed, it took serious effort from players, sovling real puzzles in order to even gain access to the boss to even attempt killing. This created a very "this is fucking epic" feeling. Progression made huge differences in your character, and for bragging rights amongst other top tier guilds. Competition is fun. Challenging encounters are fun. coordinating a strike force is fun. This is why raids were successfull, not just because it was good loot.
the problem now is either old hardcore players just "dont have the time" to play like that anymore, but they still want to feel like they did when they raided end game phat lootz, so 15-25 man content is ideal for them, ...and.... that the casual gamer has taken over so much of the market that developers are afraid of introducing anything from EQ that made the game so special.
MMO's are missing the real "epicness" that 40+ man raiding offers. EQ would've never had the subscriber base as long as it did (or still does!), and if WoW did not launch with 40 man raids, would've missed out on the subs they needed at launch from the dozens and dozens of huge guilds coming over from EQ.
I'm pretty much dead set against any system where the raid has limits on the numbers of players, minimum or maximum limits.
Now there's nothing to stop anyone from trying to do a 40 man raid with 30 people, I remember back in vanilla WoW the guild I was in went and did MC with 16 one time, which was kinda fun. We got as far as killing Magmadar which was pretty good for such a small raid. What sucks donkey balls is when you can't take 41, and that 1 person gets left out. Sorry but bollocks to that and bollocks to your stupid fucking design. Which dickhead put that in?
It's the same problem that WoW and pretty much every MMO that's come out since 2004 has, this spoon fed attitude. This is a 25 man raid, here's a 10 man version. Such bollocks. Just let people play the content. I guarentee you that guilds will keep trying to one up each other by trying to take the least numbers possible. It used to happen in EQ all the time. Some may say that allowing limitless numbers to attend raids trivialises the content but most gamers are naturally competitive. If they beat a raid with 50 you can bet they'll want to try with 45 next time, then 40 and so on. And if your game engine can't support 100 people on screen in a raid, well go back and re-code it so's that it can. If MMO's could do that in 1999 there's no excuse for modern games not to do the same. In fact, they should be doing it better.
Anyone remember how it was always a big talking point when someone took out Nagafen with a new record low number of people? And this wasn't just on the server it took place on, but the whole community would congratulate the team that did it. I just wish modern MMO's would loosen the reins just a little bit.
When you think about it, the term MMO was coined to describe these new games like Meridian 59 and UO where, literally, hundreds of players could play together. If you start limiting the numbers to 40 or 50 or any number really, do you still deserve to call your game an MMO? Because 40 people isn't really massive is it? Obviously that's not a serious question but you get the point I'm trying to make.
Would I play a 40 man raid? Yes, but I don't like the fact that there's a limit there in the first place.
That's a guild/discipline problem that exists as much in 10mans as in 100 mans, hell, can even be the same in 2man if you allow it. DC/lag problems was also something that mostly existed 10-20 years ago, not today. And another additional thing to expect from 40 mans - don't expect the same old boring tank and spank shit mechanics as you had 10 years ago.
I have found this sitet doesn't support raiding too much, yet, many people who do are, well busy raiding. This site has a lot of, anti-gear grind, casuals, and people who feel like sanbox is the way. This thread is jus tmore proof of that, they are the most vocal and pasionate, nothing wrong with that though.
The truth is, games that have established themselves as raiding games, manage just fine to keep and support communities, be it PVP or PVE raiding, the hardcore 1% niche player who cannot wait to see if they can pull off what they claim raid wise, like myself, help casual communities thrive. Right now I raid in Rift, and while its population is struggling its sure not because of their being 20man raids, its because Trion has dropped the ball, and are behind the curve. Raiding progression isn't a perfect system, but its one that is supported by communities, and will continue to be.
On a raid night we have about 26+ ready raiders, and recruit to keep around there, but we always have 10+ casuals who just pvp, or jump in here and there, play when they can and how they like, but they support us, they watch our streams and are just as excited when we down something.
Just saying people here have blinders on, they want to believe blanket ideas like, 40mans are fail. But from the people I play with, and know, if the systems are good/fun, and the raiding good/fun/hard, people will be all up in there trying to be first. The raiding community has been asking for harder, better, memorable, epic, more focused content for a long time, and its one of the biggest complaints you see from raiders.
So from my perspective its, not if people will do it but for how long, and that will depend on Carbine.