Because Kickstarter puts the developers in direct contact with the very people that want their game.
Oh please. Pull the heart strings on someone else.
This is about low risk money, nothing else.
Believe what you want Waterlily... People giving money to Kickstarter campaigns have zero, zip, nada affect on you personally. The only potential affect it could have on you is you might just get to play some really great games down the road and have to eat your words. My question to you is... Why the hell do you care so much about something that you obviously don't care about? What possible affect could people giving money to kickstarter and possibly losing it have anything to do with you? If others lose their money that they freely gave why do you even give a crap?
Kickstarter is not a charity, don't compare it to donations. Kickstarter takes 5% of every project.
...
Let me ask you this, Richard Garriot could have easily gotten money from a bank for his game, he could have easily done a better deal than 5% kickstarter is asking for.
Why did Garriot go to Kickstarter instead of to a bank or publisher?
You seroiusly don't know?
It's not about the money... it's about the marketing:
Obviously 5% of is considered cheap to establish a worldwide viral marketing buzz.
it's because the money is no risk and no strings attached
a bank asks for their money back
a publisher will sue the developer if the game underperforms
a state will sue the developer like with 38 studios
kickstarter guarantees to the company that the backers have no legal means to stand on, that's why garriot goes there and so does everyone else
it's no risk money from individuals who are powerless, not only that, kickstarter actually makes the creditors powerless by undermining their legal rights before they hand over money, you can't find it anywhere else the world
You really love banks, after all they are why the whole world is in shit today. Banks are good in theory but when you put people in charge of them they turn to shit.
Kickstarter is not a bank, you can donate money and usually pre purchase a game you would ilke to see be made.
Kickstarter is not a charity, don't compare it to donations. Kickstarter takes 5% of every project.
...
Let me ask you this, Richard Garriot could have easily gotten money from a bank for his game, he could have easily done a better deal than 5% kickstarter is asking for.
Why did Garriot go to Kickstarter instead of to a bank or publisher?
You seroiusly don't know?
It's not about the money... it's about the marketing:
Obviously 5% of is considered cheap to establish a worldwide viral marketing buzz.
If Dev's don't F it up it could be a viable way to make games. Any competition will be great for us as gamers, as long as quality doesnt take a hit. Not that quality is that great right now anyway though.
Jesus, INVESTMENTS and LOANS are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS.
Since when are they two totally different things. An investment is:
"the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns"
When banks give loans to companies that is exactly what they're doing, they want interest on their investment down the line.
A loan entails the reallocation of the subject asset(s) for a period of time, between the lender and the borrower
The loan is generally provided at a cost, referred to as interest on the debt, which provides an incentive for the lender to engage in the loan. In a legal loan, each of these obligations and restrictions is enforced by contract, which can also place the borrower under additional restrictions known as loan covenants.
What that is saying is that a loan is an agreement between two parties, enforced by a contract stipulating the terms of the loan. The fact that paying interest on the loan is a common practice in modern times does not mean a LOAN is the same thing as an INVESTMENT. As it says, the interest is provided as an incentive for the lender to make the loan. I.E. If i am not going to get something out of it, why should i loan you the money.
Investments by nature are risk based. Someone comes to you with an idea and you make a risk assessment as to whether or not you will gain a return on your money. There is no contract stating "by investing in my idea, you will make a minimum of 5% on your money". You are not guaranteed a return on your money. When you buy 10 shares in stock with a company at say $50/share, you're doing that with the hopes that the company will be more succesful and the price of their stock will go up, and you can then later sell those shares at more than you paid for them, thus creating a profit. That company could on the other hand go belly up 4 months later and the stock you bought would be worthless. Its all risk.
When an investor provides a company in this case a game company with money, they are doing that based on the risk that the companies product will be succesful and they will make a return on that investment.
What 38 studios did is obtain a 75 million dollar LOAN from the state, which they didnt pay back in time and subsequently fell into bankruptcy. This is a totally different process because when they took that loan they bound themselves into a contract with the lender.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Kickstarter is not a charity, don't compare it to donations. Kickstarter takes 5% of every project.
...
Let me ask you this, Richard Garriot could have easily gotten money from a bank for his game, he could have easily done a better deal than 5% kickstarter is asking for.
Why did Garriot go to Kickstarter instead of to a bank or publisher?
You seroiusly don't know?
It's not about the money... it's about the marketing:
Obviously 5% of is considered cheap to establish a worldwide viral marketing buzz.
it's because the money is no risk and no strings attached
a bank asks for their money back
a publisher will sue the developer if the game underperforms
a state will sue the developer like with 38 studioes
kickstarter guarantees to the company that the backers have no legal means to stand on, that's why garriot goes there and so does everyone else
it's no risk money from individuals who are powerless, not only that, kickstarter actually makes the creditors powerless by undermining their legal rights before they hand over money, you can't find it anywhere else the world
You can set up a company in many countries and get investment... with no (personal) liability.
Why the hell do you care so much about something that you obviously don't care about? What possible affect could people giving money to kickstarter and possibly losing it have anything to do with you? If others lose their money that they freely gave why do you even give a crap?
Bren
Because it undermines what non-profit organisations are doing. Kickstarter takes away part of the spotlight and is undermining people's trust. Non-profit have spent years putting the right regulations and checks in place, to make sure every penny donated goes to the right people, they make sure people can trust them. Kickstarter does the exact opposite, they are for-profit and give supporters no guarantees whatsoever, this can only be a bad thing for organisations asking for money, who do protect your investment.
Kickstarted keeps a percentage of the project's money because they are providing the website, the hosting, covering the costs and administration of collecting, keeping track of all monies involved, handling all the backend financial crap, etc etc.
5% is not even remotely close to an unreasonable amount to ask for what they are doing.
They take 5% of projects that go for $10 million + each. They are making a killing.
Hosting a site...get out. I can host a site for $100 a month.
They have one job, 1, to protect their backers, and they have never once done this, not once have they used legals means at their disposal to protect backers.
And I'll tell you why, because that's why big companies go to kickstarter, because it's a no-risk affair. That's how the ball keeps rolling, it will keep rolling until backers start to realise they have 0 guarantess that their investment is protected.
They have NO obligation to protect their backers, none whatsoever. Kickstarters only reason for existence is to put backers in contact with project starters and to adminstrate the financial dealings between the two.
They are an intermediary. They have no fiduciary duty or responsibility to either party.
I dont understand why you can't seem to get this.
Think of Kickstarter being somewhat like Visa. When you engage in a process of purchasing something from an individual or company, lets say a T Shirt from a clothing store. It is NOT Visa's responsibility to protect your from a bad purchase decision. If you go spend $5000 on a t shirt and decide later on that it wasnt a good value, thats your problem. Not VISA's.
All VISA does is provide the means for you to give your money to them. This is the same basic service kickstarter is providing.
And by the way, you're not hosting a site the size and complexity of kickstarter for $100/month. Stop being ridiculous.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Why the hell do you care so much about something that you obviously don't care about? What possible affect could people giving money to kickstarter and possibly losing it have anything to do with you? If others lose their money that they freely gave why do you even give a crap?
Bren
Because it undermines what non-profit organisations are doing. Kickstarter takes away part of the spotlight and is undermining people's trust. Non-profit have spent years putting the right regulations and checks in place, to make sure every penny donated goes to the right people, they make sure people can trust them. Kickstarter does the exact opposite, they are for-profit and give supporters no guarantees whatsoever, this can only be a bad thing for organisations asking for money, who do protect your investment.
WOW, once again comparing apples to oranges.
When you donate money to a non profit, you are donating that money and putting your faith in the non profit that they will put that money towards the purpose they set forth. They acheive a non profit status with the government by agreeing that they will only use so much money as is necessary from the donations to administer the organization, and that anything over and above that will be put towards the purpose of the non profit.
Non profits have rules and regulations in place to make sure that the people administering the non profit don't abuse the money. I.e. go out and have dinner every night at the most expensive restaurants, or pay for the most expensive hotel rooms, or buy every employee 7 series BMW's to drive around in. They are allowed reasonable expenses to perform their duties.
Edit: Also, just do me a favor and look up the word donate, and then the word gift.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
lets say a T Shirt from a clothing store. It is NOT Visa's responsibility to protect your from a bad purchase decision. If you go spend $5000 on a t shirt and decide later on that it wasnt a good value, thats your problem. Not VISA's.
All VISA does is provide the means for you to give your money to them. This is the same basic service kickstarter is providing.
Visa does protect you, in more way than one.
If you buy a t-shirt and you never get it, or it has holes in it, or it's not delivered on time, or they broke a promise.
(Something that happens all the time on Kickstarter)
Not only that, Visa will help you personally and will offer legal assistance when they see fit.
Not liking a t-shirt is something else, but on kickstarter many projects have not delivered, some have actually ran off with the money, some people have "disappeared", some people have just spent it on themselves, some projects have faked delays, etc etc. There have been hundreds of scams on kickstarter, and not once have I seen kickstarter protect the backer.
Think of Kickstarter being somewhat like Visa. When you engage in a process of purchasing something from an individual or company, lets say a T Shirt from a clothing store. It is NOT Visa's responsibility to protect your from a bad purchase decision. If you go spend $5000 on a t shirt and decide later on that it wasnt a good value, thats your problem. Not VISA's.
All VISA does is provide the means for you to give your money to them. This is the same basic service kickstarter is providing.
And by the way, you're not hosting a site the size and complexity of kickstarter for $100/month. Stop being ridiculous.
I call STRAWMAN!
"It is NOT Visa's responsibility to protect your from a bad purchase decision. If you go spend $5000 on a t shirt and decide later on that it wasnt a good value, thats your problem. Not VISA's."
VISA etc do not protect you from bad decisions (on your part) but they do protect you from fraud on the merchant's part.
I'm quite fond of Faster Than Light, Banner Saga and Strike Suit Zero myself. The latter had some initial problems, but I still play it now and again as it's just about what I expected. Path of Exile is meh (from a minion master's point of view), but I consider it released in terms of KS if I have a product that I am able to play as a result of it (Especially if it's going to be Free to Play anyway). In terms of quality, well that's subjective with each person.
Shadowrun Returns is about to come out soon as well and is looking to be shaping out quite nicely.
It's a shame about Wildman, though. One of the first major kickstarter campaigns by a big company (Gas Powered Games) that failed and the entire game was cancelled because of the it. Most of the team was let go, and the funds from kickstarter was to get them back and to make the game they were a quarter of the way into development with.
I was really interested in this game back when I saw it, and I didn't quite understand the need they had with Kickstarter until it was too late. I thought surely that someone as big as GPG could fund something themselves, but it seems I was just foolish in my black and white stance in that I should really only see Indie games on kickstarter. I've since rectified that stance and do my research in whole before deciding to support something; if it's by someone who's rich and yet I see they put in millions of their own into the game, I might support it if the idea is something I appreciate. I'm still interested in indie titles that show they have a solid base and have the capacity to do it, and now especially big companies and why they are using kickstarter.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
When you give someone a loan, you expect them to give you back the money with interest, that's what a bank requires from a company when they give them money.
You are a bank when you're a kickstarter backer, you provide cash. But the difference with kickstarter is that you don't get any guarantees, you get no interest on your investment, you have no legal ground to stand on, you are powerless as a backer.
Kickstarter is a scam the way I see it, you get not protection as a backer.
And with this you also have the reason why kickstarter is so popular, even amongst big developers, they basically get money without any obligations or risks attached. For them it's the same as getting a loan from a bank, but one where the backer isn't protected, which means they can not be held accountable.
But could you imagine a developer trying to get legs underneath itself pullins something so harsh? Do you not think it would make headlines the way Mr. Schilling and his studios did? It could happen, but I think companies actually pushing for brand recognition wouldn't do such a thing if they had any value in the industry and their product at all..
My only thing about Kickstarter is the amount of time these projects get to develop.. I cannot see myself putting forth much of anything into a project that is a wall of text with a drawing of a few swords or creature concepts.. I need more than that to show progress and willfulness to complete the project in a timely fashion.. Games that are not scheduled to be released till 2015 are completely off of my radar, who knows, by that time I may have new acquired tastes or not even care for what "WAS" or what it has become..
I think they should have an option to view projects by estimated release dates upon success.. I would have a tendency to back a project that is due out this year than ones that would or could carry on into 2014 -15.. Triple A releases will not stop, and some of these project founders should realize the mainstream is their greatest competitor and with all these promised sandbox games all it would take is for the mainstream to catch on and just like the WoW Clone era we will get a surplus of them.. Then the indie dollar has just run away..
you keep saying kickstarter and loan. Are you in fact claiming that kickerstarter is legally a LOAN??????????? That would be very odd way to present your point.
How about thinking of kickstarter as being a patron for a given project? So that is a selfless act. Can you wrap your head around that? Or are you just about give and take? Perhaps just take? Let me know.
It's an investment without guarantees.
Kickstarter is not a charity, or selfless act, kickstarter takes 5% of every backed project and backers want a return on their investment.
In the real world the creditor wants some form of protection, and the law is in place to give creditors like banks, publishers, governments protection.
The reason kickstarter is becoming more popular than banks and publishers, is because kickstarter doesn't protect the creditors, which removes any responsibility from the recipient.
It's not an investment. Kickstarter should get a cut as they are providing a service. You are not a creditor. You are foolish if you think you would be in this situation.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Why the hell do you care so much about something that you obviously don't care about? What possible affect could people giving money to kickstarter and possibly losing it have anything to do with you? If others lose their money that they freely gave why do you even give a crap?
Bren
Because it undermines what non-profit organisations are doing. Kickstarter takes away part of the spotlight and is undermining people's trust. Non-profit have spent years putting the right regulations and checks in place, to make sure every penny donated goes to the right people, they make sure people can trust them. Kickstarter does the exact opposite, they are for-profit and give supporters no guarantees whatsoever, this can only be a bad thing for organisations asking for money, who do protect your investment.
Now thats interesting... Anyone who can't tell the difference between one of your beloved "non profits" and a Kickstarter project, has more serious problems to worry about... ^^ "Non profits" tend to be under heavy government regulation (to "protect" people of course...). The reality is rather different, as anyone who has been involved with NGO's and such could tell you.
I find it fascinating that you would expend this amount of effort on a subject that has nothing in it for you personally. Those of us who back various Kickstarter projects are rather clear about our motivations. What are yours pray tell? I can't remember anyone asking for "protection" or guarantees in regards to these projects. That being the case, why do you feel the need to rush to our "rescue"?
Think of Kickstarter being somewhat like Visa. When you engage in a process of purchasing something from an individual or company, lets say a T Shirt from a clothing store. It is NOT Visa's responsibility to protect your from a bad purchase decision. If you go spend $5000 on a t shirt and decide later on that it wasnt a good value, thats your problem. Not VISA's.
All VISA does is provide the means for you to give your money to them. This is the same basic service kickstarter is providing.
And by the way, you're not hosting a site the size and complexity of kickstarter for $100/month. Stop being ridiculous.
I call STRAWMAN!
"It is NOT Visa's responsibility to protect your from a bad purchase decision. If you go spend $5000 on a t shirt and decide later on that it wasnt a good value, thats your problem. Not VISA's."
VISA etc do not protect you from bad decisions (on your part) but they do protect you from fraud on the merchant's part.
In a way you are both incorrect. Giving money to a kickstarter isnt akin to "buying an item".
Investing, is not buying. Investments can and will fail. It is part of the deal.
Many of the protections afforded to buyers are not afforded to investors at all. When it comes to internet investements there are virtually no protections in place.
Kickstarter keeps 5% of every project that is backed, they have profits in the millions and they do NOTHING to protect backers, NOTHING.
Kickstarter is a pure scam.
LOL its a scam
Then why am i here enjoying games like FTL and Chivalry and other crowd funded games? Infact FTL and Chiv where probally some of the better games to be released last year..
I have also backed other crowd funded games like Endless Space and Path of Exile, Star Drive.. all bloody amazing games.
Anyway without sites like kickstarter those games and many others would never have existed.
Kickstarter is one of the best things to happen to the gamnig industry over the last few years.. we will now start seeing new games come out from there that are enw and fun and not jsut a clone of WOW or COD.. I for one am very happy that this has happened and i know that the next few years of gaming... not just MMORPGs is going to be awesome and all because of kickstarter and other similar sites.
Also why should kickstarter do anything to protect the person backing a project? its not like kickstarter will be able to micromanage every project or magically be able to re-fund everyone if the project fails..
If your a bit un-easy abotu backing projects then dont its simple as that, myself i only tend to back projects that I think i will enjoy, I never back too much say $20-$50 if I have some spare cash.. i never go crazy and back $1000s.. but at the end of the day its your money do waht you liek with it.. if you liek all these clones coming from the big AAA companies then keep buying their gaems.. Myself i stopped uying most big titles from AAA companies a long time ago.
waterlily: sorry but i dont know if you are trolling or just really stupid. where did you get an idea that backing up a project on KS is a "loan" or "investment"? its a donation/patronage, pure and simple. we (backers) are donating money to the projects we would like to succeed, in case of people on this site usually games which we would like to play.
we simply make a decision to pay for a chance to play something we would really like to play.
edit: so no, KS doesnt have any reason to "protect" the backers - we did decided on our own to spend money backing some project with (at least if you are not totally stupid) with an awareness that the project can fail/never come to life. Thats why most of us either only back projects that have good chance to get finished (experienced developers behind them) or we spend just some small money we would not really miss to show our support.
Are you affraid you will get "scammed"? well solution is simple: dont back projects on KS.
Why the hell do you care so much about something that you obviously don't care about? What possible affect could people giving money to kickstarter and possibly losing it have anything to do with you? If others lose their money that they freely gave why do you even give a crap?
Bren
Because it undermines what non-profit organisations are doing. Kickstarter takes away part of the spotlight and is undermining people's trust. Non-profit have spent years putting the right regulations and checks in place, to make sure every penny donated goes to the right people, they make sure people can trust them. Kickstarter does the exact opposite, they are for-profit and give supporters no guarantees whatsoever, this can only be a bad thing for organisations asking for money, who do protect your investment.
Oh please... Pull on someone elses heart strings. These are video games not the cure for cancer. What Kickstarter is doing and what non-profits are doing are two totally non-related activities. If people are confusing the two in any way they are too ignorant to have their own money anyways. Kickstarter is NOT a non-profit in any way... nor is it a charity. Kickstarter is a for-profit business. They get 5% of every dollar given. Most people who give money expect at least a game for their "donation" if the product they are funding releases. When you give $50 to charity you don't expect anything in return. When you give $50 to help fund a game on Kickstarter you expect a game in return. You are confusing altruism for desire to get a product on the market.
The people who give to fund kickstarter projects and the people who give to charities are two totally seperate groups. They are totally unrelated. Altruism and Desire are almost polar opposites. People who "Gift" money to charities do so through Altruism. People who "Donate" money to Kickstarter do so because of desire. One is Selflessness and the other is Selfishness. These are two groups that are not related.
"I'm against developers having better opportunities to make the games they want to make!"
That is essentially what you're saying if you're against Kickstarter.
People never cease to amaze me with their predilection for ignoring the simple truth in favor of bickering about semantics and full-blown delusions.
the irony of people who don't understand the difference between basic concepts like loans and investments arguing with people on how to spend their money.. good times
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Comments
Believe what you want Waterlily... People giving money to Kickstarter campaigns have zero, zip, nada affect on you personally. The only potential affect it could have on you is you might just get to play some really great games down the road and have to eat your words. My question to you is... Why the hell do you care so much about something that you obviously don't care about? What possible affect could people giving money to kickstarter and possibly losing it have anything to do with you? If others lose their money that they freely gave why do you even give a crap?
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
it's because the money is no risk and no strings attached
a bank asks for their money back
a publisher will sue the developer if the game underperforms
a state will sue the developer like with 38 studios
kickstarter guarantees to the company that the backers have no legal means to stand on, that's why garriot goes there and so does everyone else
it's no risk money from individuals who are powerless, not only that, kickstarter actually makes the creditors powerless by undermining their legal rights before they hand over money, you can't find it anywhere else the world
If Dev's don't F it up it could be a viable way to make games. Any competition will be great for us as gamers, as long as quality doesnt take a hit. Not that quality is that great right now anyway though.
A loan entails the reallocation of the subject asset(s) for a period of time, between the lender and the borrower
The loan is generally provided at a cost, referred to as interest on the debt, which provides an incentive for the lender to engage in the loan. In a legal loan, each of these obligations and restrictions is enforced by contract, which can also place the borrower under additional restrictions known as loan covenants.
What that is saying is that a loan is an agreement between two parties, enforced by a contract stipulating the terms of the loan. The fact that paying interest on the loan is a common practice in modern times does not mean a LOAN is the same thing as an INVESTMENT. As it says, the interest is provided as an incentive for the lender to make the loan. I.E. If i am not going to get something out of it, why should i loan you the money.
Investments by nature are risk based. Someone comes to you with an idea and you make a risk assessment as to whether or not you will gain a return on your money. There is no contract stating "by investing in my idea, you will make a minimum of 5% on your money". You are not guaranteed a return on your money. When you buy 10 shares in stock with a company at say $50/share, you're doing that with the hopes that the company will be more succesful and the price of their stock will go up, and you can then later sell those shares at more than you paid for them, thus creating a profit. That company could on the other hand go belly up 4 months later and the stock you bought would be worthless. Its all risk.
When an investor provides a company in this case a game company with money, they are doing that based on the risk that the companies product will be succesful and they will make a return on that investment.
What 38 studios did is obtain a 75 million dollar LOAN from the state, which they didnt pay back in time and subsequently fell into bankruptcy. This is a totally different process because when they took that loan they bound themselves into a contract with the lender.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
You can set up a company in many countries and get investment... with no (personal) liability.
You really need to look at the links I posted.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Because it undermines what non-profit organisations are doing. Kickstarter takes away part of the spotlight and is undermining people's trust. Non-profit have spent years putting the right regulations and checks in place, to make sure every penny donated goes to the right people, they make sure people can trust them. Kickstarter does the exact opposite, they are for-profit and give supporters no guarantees whatsoever, this can only be a bad thing for organisations asking for money, who do protect your investment.
They have NO obligation to protect their backers, none whatsoever. Kickstarters only reason for existence is to put backers in contact with project starters and to adminstrate the financial dealings between the two.
They are an intermediary. They have no fiduciary duty or responsibility to either party.
I dont understand why you can't seem to get this.
Think of Kickstarter being somewhat like Visa. When you engage in a process of purchasing something from an individual or company, lets say a T Shirt from a clothing store. It is NOT Visa's responsibility to protect your from a bad purchase decision. If you go spend $5000 on a t shirt and decide later on that it wasnt a good value, thats your problem. Not VISA's.
All VISA does is provide the means for you to give your money to them. This is the same basic service kickstarter is providing.
And by the way, you're not hosting a site the size and complexity of kickstarter for $100/month. Stop being ridiculous.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
WOW, once again comparing apples to oranges.
When you donate money to a non profit, you are donating that money and putting your faith in the non profit that they will put that money towards the purpose they set forth. They acheive a non profit status with the government by agreeing that they will only use so much money as is necessary from the donations to administer the organization, and that anything over and above that will be put towards the purpose of the non profit.
Non profits have rules and regulations in place to make sure that the people administering the non profit don't abuse the money. I.e. go out and have dinner every night at the most expensive restaurants, or pay for the most expensive hotel rooms, or buy every employee 7 series BMW's to drive around in. They are allowed reasonable expenses to perform their duties.
Edit: Also, just do me a favor and look up the word donate, and then the word gift.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Visa does protect you, in more way than one.
If you buy a t-shirt and you never get it, or it has holes in it, or it's not delivered on time, or they broke a promise.
(Something that happens all the time on Kickstarter)
Then Visa will protect you: http://usa.visa.com/merchants/operations/chargebacks_dispute_resolution/index.html
Not only that, Visa will help you personally and will offer legal assistance when they see fit.
Not liking a t-shirt is something else, but on kickstarter many projects have not delivered, some have actually ran off with the money, some people have "disappeared", some people have just spent it on themselves, some projects have faked delays, etc etc. There have been hundreds of scams on kickstarter, and not once have I seen kickstarter protect the backer.
I call STRAWMAN!
"It is NOT Visa's responsibility to protect your from a bad purchase decision. If you go spend $5000 on a t shirt and decide later on that it wasnt a good value, thats your problem. Not VISA's."
VISA etc do not protect you from bad decisions (on your part) but they do protect you from fraud on the merchant's part.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I'm quite fond of Faster Than Light, Banner Saga and Strike Suit Zero myself. The latter had some initial problems, but I still play it now and again as it's just about what I expected. Path of Exile is meh (from a minion master's point of view), but I consider it released in terms of KS if I have a product that I am able to play as a result of it (Especially if it's going to be Free to Play anyway). In terms of quality, well that's subjective with each person.
Shadowrun Returns is about to come out soon as well and is looking to be shaping out quite nicely.
It's a shame about Wildman, though. One of the first major kickstarter campaigns by a big company (Gas Powered Games) that failed and the entire game was cancelled because of the it. Most of the team was let go, and the funds from kickstarter was to get them back and to make the game they were a quarter of the way into development with.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/02/11/chris-taylor-cancels-wildman-kickstarter-with-four-days-and-600k-to-go/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHzCZ53qOpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1NmN9_-KLE
I was really interested in this game back when I saw it, and I didn't quite understand the need they had with Kickstarter until it was too late. I thought surely that someone as big as GPG could fund something themselves, but it seems I was just foolish in my black and white stance in that I should really only see Indie games on kickstarter. I've since rectified that stance and do my research in whole before deciding to support something; if it's by someone who's rich and yet I see they put in millions of their own into the game, I might support it if the idea is something I appreciate. I'm still interested in indie titles that show they have a solid base and have the capacity to do it, and now especially big companies and why they are using kickstarter.
But could you imagine a developer trying to get legs underneath itself pullins something so harsh? Do you not think it would make headlines the way Mr. Schilling and his studios did? It could happen, but I think companies actually pushing for brand recognition wouldn't do such a thing if they had any value in the industry and their product at all..
My only thing about Kickstarter is the amount of time these projects get to develop.. I cannot see myself putting forth much of anything into a project that is a wall of text with a drawing of a few swords or creature concepts.. I need more than that to show progress and willfulness to complete the project in a timely fashion.. Games that are not scheduled to be released till 2015 are completely off of my radar, who knows, by that time I may have new acquired tastes or not even care for what "WAS" or what it has become..
I think they should have an option to view projects by estimated release dates upon success.. I would have a tendency to back a project that is due out this year than ones that would or could carry on into 2014 -15.. Triple A releases will not stop, and some of these project founders should realize the mainstream is their greatest competitor and with all these promised sandbox games all it would take is for the mainstream to catch on and just like the WoW Clone era we will get a surplus of them.. Then the indie dollar has just run away..
It's not an investment. Kickstarter should get a cut as they are providing a service. You are not a creditor. You are foolish if you think you would be in this situation.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Now thats interesting... Anyone who can't tell the difference between one of your beloved "non profits" and a Kickstarter project, has more serious problems to worry about... ^^ "Non profits" tend to be under heavy government regulation (to "protect" people of course...). The reality is rather different, as anyone who has been involved with NGO's and such could tell you.
I find it fascinating that you would expend this amount of effort on a subject that has nothing in it for you personally. Those of us who back various Kickstarter projects are rather clear about our motivations. What are yours pray tell? I can't remember anyone asking for "protection" or guarantees in regards to these projects. That being the case, why do you feel the need to rush to our "rescue"?
In a way you are both incorrect. Giving money to a kickstarter isnt akin to "buying an item".
Investing, is not buying. Investments can and will fail. It is part of the deal.
Many of the protections afforded to buyers are not afforded to investors at all. When it comes to internet investements there are virtually no protections in place.
FTL - Faster Than Light
This is the only one I know. Its awesome game , but its very small roguelike and it was mostly developed at time they even applied for kickstarter.
To the OP:
Name one big time non-Kickstarter game successfully funded in the last year AND released NOW!
And I'm not talking about some basement projects that some dude dreams up when he was hammered during a D&D session.
They don't pop out of development like some babe from Zeus's head, they require a lot of work, time, effort.
And as far as Kickstarter goes: It's patronage. Not investment. Not buying.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
LOL its a scam
Then why am i here enjoying games like FTL and Chivalry and other crowd funded games? Infact FTL and Chiv where probally some of the better games to be released last year..
I have also backed other crowd funded games like Endless Space and Path of Exile, Star Drive.. all bloody amazing games.
Anyway without sites like kickstarter those games and many others would never have existed.
Kickstarter is one of the best things to happen to the gamnig industry over the last few years.. we will now start seeing new games come out from there that are enw and fun and not jsut a clone of WOW or COD.. I for one am very happy that this has happened and i know that the next few years of gaming... not just MMORPGs is going to be awesome and all because of kickstarter and other similar sites.
Also why should kickstarter do anything to protect the person backing a project? its not like kickstarter will be able to micromanage every project or magically be able to re-fund everyone if the project fails..
If your a bit un-easy abotu backing projects then dont its simple as that, myself i only tend to back projects that I think i will enjoy, I never back too much say $20-$50 if I have some spare cash.. i never go crazy and back $1000s.. but at the end of the day its your money do waht you liek with it.. if you liek all these clones coming from the big AAA companies then keep buying their gaems.. Myself i stopped uying most big titles from AAA companies a long time ago.
Totally different? No.
Significantly different? Yes.
A loan involves a contractual obligation. An investment doesn't.
I can't play the stock market (invest) and then complain that I lost money or failed to make money.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
waterlily: sorry but i dont know if you are trolling or just really stupid. where did you get an idea that backing up a project on KS is a "loan" or "investment"? its a donation/patronage, pure and simple. we (backers) are donating money to the projects we would like to succeed, in case of people on this site usually games which we would like to play.
we simply make a decision to pay for a chance to play something we would really like to play.
edit: so no, KS doesnt have any reason to "protect" the backers - we did decided on our own to spend money backing some project with (at least if you are not totally stupid) with an awareness that the project can fail/never come to life. Thats why most of us either only back projects that have good chance to get finished (experienced developers behind them) or we spend just some small money we would not really miss to show our support.
Are you affraid you will get "scammed"? well solution is simple: dont back projects on KS.
Oh please... Pull on someone elses heart strings. These are video games not the cure for cancer. What Kickstarter is doing and what non-profits are doing are two totally non-related activities. If people are confusing the two in any way they are too ignorant to have their own money anyways. Kickstarter is NOT a non-profit in any way... nor is it a charity. Kickstarter is a for-profit business. They get 5% of every dollar given. Most people who give money expect at least a game for their "donation" if the product they are funding releases. When you give $50 to charity you don't expect anything in return. When you give $50 to help fund a game on Kickstarter you expect a game in return. You are confusing altruism for desire to get a product on the market.
The people who give to fund kickstarter projects and the people who give to charities are two totally seperate groups. They are totally unrelated. Altruism and Desire are almost polar opposites. People who "Gift" money to charities do so through Altruism. People who "Donate" money to Kickstarter do so because of desire. One is Selflessness and the other is Selfishness. These are two groups that are not related.
Bren
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Brian Fargos skit at the beginning of the introduction sums up a lot things.
http://kck.st/13F7hZm
This thread is unbelievably hilarious.
"I'm against developers having better opportunities to make the games they want to make!"
That is essentially what you're saying if you're against Kickstarter.
People never cease to amaze me with their predilection for ignoring the simple truth in favor of bickering about semantics and full-blown delusions.
The Wasteland 2 one is pretty funny to
http://kck.st/yDcMry
http://www.twitter.com/PoIs0nMaN
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http://www.youtube.com/PoIs0nMaN
http://steamcommunity.com/id/PoIsOnMaN
http://poisonman.wordpress.com/
the irony of people who don't understand the difference between basic concepts like loans and investments arguing with people on how to spend their money.. good times
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg