Well James that would mean that the fault lies entirely with the producer of the title and whomever out there was so brilliant as to think that Simutronics was ever going to release Hero's Journey. No, you got suckered in and rather than being a decent, ethical, moral human being and accept the fact that you are a fool, you decided to pass it on and sell us a shoddy piece of work telling us its KOTOR's 3-9.
It is really amazing how a major company like EA could do such a mistake. Indeed they should have writen their own engine from scratch focusing it for the game they were building.
SWTOR was one if not the most antecipated game for me and probably the biggest disappointment.
And although I have no proof to substantiate it, I am almost certain that the Hero Engine was forced on Bioware by EA. Its just the kind of thing that EA do.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
It seems like a huge mistake, I mean this is one of the biggest gaming companies, with veteran people, they should of known what they needed.....But I also do not believe much of what they say, they mislead/lied so much during TOR, about so many things that at this point, does it really matter?
I guess if they blame the engine, it makes it even worse, because that may also mean their is no 'fixing' things, and it is basically what it is. You may be able to optimize things a little here and there, but it may never be what you want.
I also wonder if this is why they went away from having a more open game, that a developer was talking about, well before release? Maybe the functionality of things prohibited that also?
It is really amazing how a major company like EA could do such a mistake. Indeed they should have writen their own engine from scratch focusing it for the game they were building.
SWTOR was one if not the most antecipated game for me and probably the biggest disappointment.
And although I have no proof to substantiate it, I am almost certain that the Hero Engine was forced on Bioware by EA. Its just the kind of thing that EA do.
Actually it was the Gordon Walton of Bioware (formely of SOE's SWG) who first expressed interest in 2005, 2 years before EA purchased Bioware. EA had nothing to do with the decision.
*EDIT* Gordon Walton was also the first of Bioware's chief muckity-mucks to leave Austin in Feb. 2011 (prior to launch) to go work at a social-media game company. Draw your own conclusions.
im confused wasnt this game something like 2-3 year in dev prior to the ea purchase of bioware...if thats the case who actually bought the engine..id assume bioware cause they would get the untested engine cheap...i doubt ea because ea owns severa amazing engines..maybe more proof the dr's were just in it to cash out?
Originally posted by cylon8 im confused wasnt this game something like 2-3 year in dev prior to the ea purchase of bioware...if thats the case who actually bought the engine..id assume bioware cause they would get the untested engine cheap...i doubt ea because ea owns severa amazing engines..maybe more proof the dr's were just in it to cash out?
There is a good deal of unaccounted time around then.
Hero mentions that BioWare purchased the engine for an upcoming MMO, but then it comes out later that the Hero alpha engine was not massively multiplayer friendly. Unofficial "rumors" were being posted about the next KOTOR game coming out.
Alpha footage of SWTOR even back to a couple years before release does show a game that appears very early in development (ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAMggd_Z9zU)
Originally posted by cylon8 im confused wasnt this game something like 2-3 year in dev prior to the ea purchase of bioware...if thats the case who actually bought the engine..id assume bioware cause they would get the untested engine cheap...i doubt ea because ea owns severa amazing engines..maybe more proof the dr's were just in it to cash out?
There is a good deal of unaccounted time around then.
Hero mentions that BioWare purchased the engine for an upcoming MMO, but then it comes out later that the Hero alpha engine was not massively multiplayer friendly. Unofficial "rumors" were being posted about the next KOTOR game coming out.
Alpha footage of SWTOR even back to a couple years before release does show a game that appears very early in development (ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAMggd_Z9zU)
Making an MMORPG seems more of an afterthought.
Thats what I think, everything about the game screams single player game with co-cop capability. I think it was an afterthought too. I love Bioware games, I refuse to believe that they would purchase an untested engine and put that on the gamble it could work. A year prior to launch they were saying 10 people tops, sounds like 5v5 pvp over network to me. EA got in and said, "make it work" imo. I think they could have done better keeping swtor as a single player game and using a different engine and making a new game.
Originally posted by ignore_me The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.
While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.
Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.
I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR). Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on. Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.
Originally posted by ignore_me The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.
While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.
Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.
I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR). Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on. Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.
I said I would stop posting in the other thread, which I haven't. Stalk much?
I hardly think the on again/off again smal scale Gree Event counts as a replacement for Ilum.
*EDIT* I've also written in other threads that I liked the Gree Event, that it displayed progress and a somewhat new dynamic in SWTOR. Most players instead bemoaned that it forced PVP on PVE players. If you want to post specifically to point out my dumb haterness, at least research your stuff better.
As to the idea that ToR was meant to be a SRPG with co-op features and not an MMO, Bioware Austin was talking about its upcoming MMO before they were acquired by EA. EA is not the root of all evil.
Originally posted by tiefighter25 Originally posted by ignore_me The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.
While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.
Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.
I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR). Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on. Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.
I play the game. Open world pvp is a joke, and at this point, extinct and an afterthought.
Originally posted by ignore_me The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.
While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.
Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.
I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR). Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on. Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.
I said I would stop posting in the other thread, which I haven't. Stalk much?
I hardly think the on again/off again smal scale Gree Event counts as a replacement for Ilum.
HAHA its not stalking when everytime you see SWTOR on a thread you cant read 5 post without it being you or K. I am just letting you know since you dont play a video game you spend so much time posting/bashing that it hasnt been a year since you could open world pvp in Ilum.
Originally posted by ignore_me The engine was also responsible for the packaging of overvalued real estate properties, unintended acceleration in Toyota cars, and Richard garriot being insensitive to others.
While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.
Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.
I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR). Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on. Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.
I play the game. Open world pvp is a joke, and at this point, extinct and an afterthought.
I never said it was good or bad just letting him know his comment about it being a year since Ilum had open world pvp were false, inaccurate and misleading. If its not a direct quote from '06 -'10 usually his comments are false, inaccuate or misleading, even those quotes he like to copy/paste are pre-launch and also misleading.
So wiat...what they rleeased they consider a working right engine?Hero engine untested?I would of thoguht Warhammer Online proved how crappy that engine was.
I mean it all boils down to what I and ALOT of other people had been saying about the game...They did not make an MMO, it was a Single payer RPG with some co-op. And the fact they chose an engine that could not support a MMORPG community further proves it -- as if it needed to be proved firther.
Well i already knew Voiceovers don't cost much ,i guess unless you hire a big name super star,but why.All these guys do is grab a piece of paper and start reading off the lines.Then later a guy or two start editing it in.They might only need those VO people for 2 minutes maybe an hour at the most.
As for the game engine trying to handle multiplayer,i am only assuming they mean with several players on screen because there is nothing else this game does that i have not seen before.Then if we assume he is talking about many players on screen,this game doesn't do that either.
I played the game quite a bit,not once did i see a ton of players,maybe a dozen at once,usually my view only consisted of maybe a handfull of players.Then you realize this game was not a high poly game,so it was not very demanding.
It sounds more to me like an amateur team that wanted a premade template where they could just punch in some numbers and tie quests together.
I don't think it is any wonder the game lacked depth of design,this team was not capable of it,it really felt to me just like another console Star Wars game with added internet.The game world acted like it was just there to fill in the boxes,there was literally no movers or interaction,it really was a lazy effort.IMO the TYPE of game it was designed to be was just too much for them to handle,both cost wise from EA and the scope of it from Bioware who was used to making console games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
....so the game and graphs engine was a bigger flop then we even knew it was to be. WoW good think Lucas arts was shut down.....maybe disney will make a mmo worthy of following SWG
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
Originally posted by Tyvolus4 I mean it all boils down to what I and ALOT of other people had been saying about the game...They did not make an MMO, it was a Single payer RPG with some co-op. And the fact they chose an engine that could not support a MMORPG community further proves it -- as if it needed to be proved firther.
They most certainly did make an MMO. They also always spoke about an MMO. The game is criticized for feeling like an SRPG with co-op features, but it is an MMORPG.
The Hero Engine was designed specifically with the intention of making theMMORPG "Hero's Journey".
Right now the, biggest game schedeuled to launch with the Hero Engine is the MMO sandbox "The Repopulation".
TESSO even used the Hero engine to block out some of their game world.
Taking a citicism of a game and then start working backwards to alter truth to make that criticism a fact is, in my view, unfruitful.
As to the idea that ToR was meant to be a SRPG with co-op features and not an MMO, Bioware Austin was talking about its upcoming MMO before they were acquired by EA. EA is not the root of all evil.
In fact, it's widely believed EA was especially keen on buying BW because it had landed the SW MMO license from LA.
Indeed. A bizarre quote in there too:
James Ohlen, creative director, BioWare Austin: We've got a lot designed -- we've got the GDD [game design document] done, we've finished more than three quarters of the detail design documents. We've got a couple prototypes up.
We've licensed [Simultronics'] HeroEngine. It's a very good engine, and we're very impressed with it so far.
Their ambitions in 2006 for an MMORPG may well have been to sweeten the pot for a sales pitch of the company to EA. They had some sort of vision, but no product.
Some darker forces at work before 2007 as well. BioWare was losing control for some time. Riccitiello played his cards good, although EA ended up getting the short end of the stick. EA players (past, present, future) were becoming intertwined in BioWare back to 2005.
Officials from private equity firm Elevation Partners have announced that the company has bought majority stakes in developer BioWare Corp. and Pandemic Studios. Both companies will continue to operate separately but Elevation has formed a new holding company called BioWare/Pandemic Studios.
The deal has cost Elevation Partners $300 million, and is one of the first of its kind in the games industry, which has previously generally seen high profile buyouts of publishers, not developers. This is not Elevation’s first attempt to break into the games industry, though, with the company previously having been involved in the bidding for British Tomb Raider publisher Eidos Interactive.
Founded by ex-Electronic Arts president John Riccitiello in 2004 ,the company - which counts U2 lead singer Bono as one of its managing partners - has raised a total of $1.9 billion to invest in media and entertainment deals. Riccitiello will serve as CEO of the new holding company, which will have its headquarters in Elevation’s Menlo Park, California offices. Former Electronic Arts executive Greg Richardson will head marketing and business development.
Originally posted by Tyvolus4 I mean it all boils down to what I and ALOT of other people had been saying about the game...They did not make an MMO, it was a Single payer RPG with some co-op. And the fact they chose an engine that could not support a MMORPG community further proves it -- as if it needed to be proved firther.
Well I am pretty sure nobody is saying that except the haters.
MMO standards:
Here are a few standards most all MMO's have that SWTOR also has.
Guilds
PVP
Flashpoints (instances) 4 players
Ops (raids) 8-16 players
Auction Halls: this is where other players sell stuff they make or find to other players.
World Bosses: These takes usually 16 players to take down
Datacron hunting (exploration): Some of these take multiple people.
Crafting.
Now its fine if you don't like swtor for whatever reason, you can say its not a very good mmo, but to say its not an mmo and that ALOT of other people also say that is ignorant.
Originally posted by Vorthanion Heh, I had serious doubts about the Hero engine from the very start, but kept getting shouted down by supposed "armchair expert programmers" on this very site. I had read previously that the Hero engine was not well suited for MMOs. In fact, many of the current engines meet that sad criteria, such as the one that keeps getting regurgitated by Cryptic Studios.
You know why Cryptic's engine works for their games? Because they made their own engine for the express purpose of making the sort of games that they wanted to make. If EA had tried to use Cryptic's engine to make SWTOR, it's far from guaranteed that it would have worked out any better than using the Hero Engine. It could easily have turned out much worse. That's not a knock on Cryptic; their engine was built for Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and Neverwinter, but not for SWTOR. If it wouldn't have worked for SWTOR, well then, maybe that's because it was never intended to.
As for Hero Engine, yes, it was built with MMORPGs in mind. The original game was Hero's Journey, which may or may not have since been cancelled. The problem is that you can build an engine to do what you want to do in one particular game, but you can't build it to efficiently do everything that any MMORPG could ever want.
Comments
Well James that would mean that the fault lies entirely with the producer of the title and whomever out there was so brilliant as to think that Simutronics was ever going to release Hero's Journey. No, you got suckered in and rather than being a decent, ethical, moral human being and accept the fact that you are a fool, you decided to pass it on and sell us a shoddy piece of work telling us its KOTOR's 3-9.
a-hole.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
And although I have no proof to substantiate it, I am almost certain that the Hero Engine was forced on Bioware by EA. Its just the kind of thing that EA do.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
It seems like a huge mistake, I mean this is one of the biggest gaming companies, with veteran people, they should of known what they needed.....But I also do not believe much of what they say, they mislead/lied so much during TOR, about so many things that at this point, does it really matter?
I guess if they blame the engine, it makes it even worse, because that may also mean their is no 'fixing' things, and it is basically what it is. You may be able to optimize things a little here and there, but it may never be what you want.
I also wonder if this is why they went away from having a more open game, that a developer was talking about, well before release? Maybe the functionality of things prohibited that also?
Actually it was the Gordon Walton of Bioware (formely of SOE's SWG) who first expressed interest in 2005, 2 years before EA purchased Bioware. EA had nothing to do with the decision.
*EDIT* Gordon Walton was also the first of Bioware's chief muckity-mucks to leave Austin in Feb. 2011 (prior to launch) to go work at a social-media game company. Draw your own conclusions.
so say we all
There is a good deal of unaccounted time around then.
Hero mentions that BioWare purchased the engine for an upcoming MMO, but then it comes out later that the Hero alpha engine was not massively multiplayer friendly. Unofficial "rumors" were being posted about the next KOTOR game coming out.
Could BioWare have originally intended for a co-op KOTOR? SWTOR the MMORPG wasn't announced to the press until after BioWare was sold to EA (http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-revealed-6199726, 2008). The dollar signs around a big name MMO sound like something EA had their eyes on, and thus they were willing to spend that $860 million to acquire BioWare (http://www.gamespot.com/news/ea-buying-bioware-pandemic-for-860m-6180818, 2007).
Alpha footage of SWTOR even back to a couple years before release does show a game that appears very early in development (ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAMggd_Z9zU)
Making an MMORPG seems more of an afterthought.
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
Thats what I think, everything about the game screams single player game with co-cop capability. I think it was an afterthought too. I love Bioware games, I refuse to believe that they would purchase an untested engine and put that on the gamble it could work. A year prior to launch they were saying 10 people tops, sounds like 5v5 pvp over network to me. EA got in and said, "make it work" imo. I think they could have done better keeping swtor as a single player game and using a different engine and making a new game.
My Thoughts on Content Locust
I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR). Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on. Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.
I said I would stop posting in the other thread, which I haven't. Stalk much?
I hardly think the on again/off again smal scale Gree Event counts as a replacement for Ilum.
*EDIT* I've also written in other threads that I liked the Gree Event, that it displayed progress and a somewhat new dynamic in SWTOR. Most players instead bemoaned that it forced PVP on PVE players. If you want to post specifically to point out my dumb haterness, at least research your stuff better.
As to the idea that ToR was meant to be a SRPG with co-op features and not an MMO, Bioware Austin was talking about its upcoming MMO before they were acquired by EA. EA is not the root of all evil.
AN example of BW Austin talking about it's upcoming MMORPG in 2006: http://www.1up.com/news/bioware-austin-talks-upcoming-mmo
In fact, it's widely believed EA was especially keen on buying BW because it had landed the SW MMO license from LA.
While it's correct that the engine isn't the single factor which explains all of Tor's woes, it is certainly a major player.
Just as an example, it has now been over a year since Ilum has been temporarily shut down.
I thought you said you were going to stop posting on this subject (SWTOR). Why dont you and your friend K just give up and move on. Btw with the release of Return of the Gree there is now Open PVP in Ilum, I know if you actually played the game you would have know this, but instead you two feel it necessary to spam every single SWTOR post.
I play the game. Open world pvp is a joke, and at this point, extinct and an afterthought.HAHA its not stalking when everytime you see SWTOR on a thread you cant read 5 post without it being you or K. I am just letting you know since you dont play a video game you spend so much time posting/bashing that it hasnt been a year since you could open world pvp in Ilum.
I never said it was good or bad just letting him know his comment about it being a year since Ilum had open world pvp were false, inaccurate and misleading. If its not a direct quote from '06 -'10 usually his comments are false, inaccuate or misleading, even those quotes he like to copy/paste are pre-launch and also misleading.
Well i already knew Voiceovers don't cost much ,i guess unless you hire a big name super star,but why.All these guys do is grab a piece of paper and start reading off the lines.Then later a guy or two start editing it in.They might only need those VO people for 2 minutes maybe an hour at the most.
As for the game engine trying to handle multiplayer,i am only assuming they mean with several players on screen because there is nothing else this game does that i have not seen before.Then if we assume he is talking about many players on screen,this game doesn't do that either.
I played the game quite a bit,not once did i see a ton of players,maybe a dozen at once,usually my view only consisted of maybe a handfull of players.Then you realize this game was not a high poly game,so it was not very demanding.
It sounds more to me like an amateur team that wanted a premade template where they could just punch in some numbers and tie quests together.
I don't think it is any wonder the game lacked depth of design,this team was not capable of it,it really felt to me just like another console Star Wars game with added internet.The game world acted like it was just there to fill in the boxes,there was literally no movers or interaction,it really was a lazy effort.IMO the TYPE of game it was designed to be was just too much for them to handle,both cost wise from EA and the scope of it from Bioware who was used to making console games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
They most certainly did make an MMO. They also always spoke about an MMO. The game is criticized for feeling like an SRPG with co-op features, but it is an MMORPG.
The Hero Engine was designed specifically with the intention of making theMMORPG "Hero's Journey".
Right now the, biggest game schedeuled to launch with the Hero Engine is the MMO sandbox "The Repopulation".
TESSO even used the Hero engine to block out some of their game world.
Taking a citicism of a game and then start working backwards to alter truth to make that criticism a fact is, in my view, unfruitful.
Indeed. A bizarre quote in there too:
James Ohlen, creative director, BioWare Austin: We've got a lot designed -- we've got the GDD [game design document] done, we've finished more than three quarters of the detail design documents. We've got a couple prototypes up.
We've licensed [Simultronics'] HeroEngine. It's a very good engine, and we're very impressed with it so far.
Their ambitions in 2006 for an MMORPG may well have been to sweeten the pot for a sales pitch of the company to EA. They had some sort of vision, but no product.
Some darker forces at work before 2007 as well. BioWare was losing control for some time. Riccitiello played his cards good, although EA ended up getting the short end of the stick. EA players (past, present, future) were becoming intertwined in BioWare back to 2005.
Elevation Buys Majority In BioWare, Pandemic
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7053
November 3, 2005
Officials from private equity firm Elevation Partners have announced that the company has bought majority stakes in developer BioWare Corp. and Pandemic Studios. Both companies will continue to operate separately but Elevation has formed a new holding company called BioWare/Pandemic Studios.
The deal has cost Elevation Partners $300 million, and is one of the first of its kind in the games industry, which has previously generally seen high profile buyouts of publishers, not developers. This is not Elevation’s first attempt to break into the games industry, though, with the company previously having been involved in the bidding for British Tomb Raider publisher Eidos Interactive.
Founded by ex-Electronic Arts president John Riccitiello in 2004 ,the company - which counts U2 lead singer Bono as one of its managing partners - has raised a total of $1.9 billion to invest in media and entertainment deals. Riccitiello will serve as CEO of the new holding company, which will have its headquarters in Elevation’s Menlo Park, California offices. Former Electronic Arts executive Greg Richardson will head marketing and business development.
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
Well I am pretty sure nobody is saying that except the haters.
MMO standards:
Here are a few standards most all MMO's have that SWTOR also has.
Guilds
PVP
Flashpoints (instances) 4 players
Ops (raids) 8-16 players
Auction Halls: this is where other players sell stuff they make or find to other players.
World Bosses: These takes usually 16 players to take down
Datacron hunting (exploration): Some of these take multiple people.
Crafting.
Now its fine if you don't like swtor for whatever reason, you can say its not a very good mmo, but to say its not an mmo and that ALOT of other people also say that is ignorant.
How's it feeling there in that armchair?
this