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Dispelling the 'easy' myth

nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/26/the-soapbox-dispelling-the-easy-myth/#continued

"This isn't a WoW-specific issue or even one limited to MMOs. Gamers from all disciplines seem to be fond of complaining about games being easy without actually attempting anything to accomplish difficult. Big Huge Games noted in a GDC 2012 talk that "too easy" was a common complaint about Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, even though two-thirds of its players completed it on the easiest difficulty setting. BioWare's awesome infographic for Mass Effect 3, shown at last week's PAX East, showed that only four percent of players completed the game on "Insanity" difficulty. The "hardcore" in text don't seem to be all that "hardcore" in practice."

"So the next time you find yourself typing "too easy" in a comment box, maybe you should consider whether you've actually tried the hard stuff before you click the post button."

This is so true. Many other examples. WOW's famous Sunwell is done only by 2%. Even when LFR first came out, the "normal" mode is done only by 4% where LFR is done by a whopping 35% of the players.

Take D3 as another example. You can make the game highly difficulty with perma death. How many kill Diablo on MP10 hard core?

 

 

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Comments

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member
    Oh nonsense. MMOs are easy. Any and all MMO content can be beaten by pressing 1 2 3 1 1 1 1. An internet forum user said so in a dismissive manner, and I have it on good authority that they know everything.

    image
  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I've always assumed that people complaining about difficulty are just trolling, looking to belittle anyone who disagerees with them. 

    If so, statistics wouldn't affect them.  Either they are part of the 1% and seek to lord it over others or they aren't and don't care about actual accomplishments.

    (however, there is a subset of complainers who I think have an issue with the track that new players find themselves on in mature games - especially in quest-driven games, there is rarely a trail of breadcrumbs for both people seeking scenic route and the people who want an adrenaline fix on day one)

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,782Member Uncommon

    Sorry, I agree with the OP. If it was to hard it wouldn't get played. Adjust your area as I suggested in the GW2 forum. If it's to easy, go to a different zone that is tougher. 

    Game developers design a platform for us to use and stimulate our imaginations. It's up to us to do our part and not be hand held to the end.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    i dont mind easy to be honest, but then i dont mind challengeing. i miss fun., what happend to games being about haveing fun instead of hard.

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

    If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

     

  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

    If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

     

    good point this

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    i dont mind easy to be honest, but then i dont mind challengeing. i miss fun., what happend to games being about haveing fun instead of hard.

    Fun is subjective.

    All games I played are fun ... otherwise why would i be playing them?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    lol .. no one disagree with me yet? That is a refreshing change.
  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,782Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Squeak69
    i dont mind easy to be honest, but then i dont mind challengeing. i miss fun., what happend to games being about haveing fun instead of hard.

    Fun is subjective.

    All games I played are fun ... otherwise why would i be playing them?

    I agree. Years ago when I was younger Pong came out and that was fun. If you can't find fun in games today you need to find something else to do. :)

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon

    You just have to babelfish people's text when they claim mmo's are too easy.

    "MMO's are too easy and dumbed down these days" = They're too accessible for other players to get into and be competitve against me, I wish it was like it was in the past where new players looked upon me with awe because I have 14 hours a day to spend gaming.

     

    It's never been about easy or hard, it's always about lording it over others as if you accomplished something major. Go look at the Path of Exile forums. I was a long time beta player in PoE, and while the community wasn't perfect before open "beta" there wasn't as much nonsensical elitism. Now that it's launched and some players ask on the forums if X will change or if X is too harsh, they get blasted by people who say that those players only want it to be easymode and to be made into D3. t's pretty nasty on there now.

    But, in all honesty, PoE isn't a hard game. It's a very RNG oriented game and there's plenty of grind to go around. Advancing levels is really just having the time and patience to grind, acquiring gear is really about luck as there is no amount of skill that will help you get gear. Did you get lucky on your rolls? You win. Not only can you just flat out win, but you can get lucky enough to never need to replace a piece of gear again.

    Despite all that, people love to claim it's a super hard game the likes of which hasn't been seen in ages!  All I know is the when D3 launched without power level options, Inferno spanked just about everyone. And no one came running to the forums talking about how amazing D3 was and how Blizzard made the hardest game ever! No, everyone cried that it was too difficult.

    Elitists want one type of difficulty, and that is one of time. If everything takes a long time, they are happy. Because time is something they have that many others don't and they want to feel special because of it.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,782Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    lol .. no one disagree with me yet? That is a refreshing change.

    I don't think there can be any disagreement here. If developers made it epic challenging the normal guy/gal wouldn't play it because it would be to hard. They need easy!

    What they should do is when you login and create a character you set a challenge for the level you want. You could set easy, normal, hard and no matter what you choose you get the same rewards. It would make everyone happy! :)

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    first ... you list non-MMOs with difficulty settings. I can't really comment on single player games as they bore me to tears.

    then you list sunwell. the general theme of the complaint is that mmos have become too easy. there are not many people who thought BT/Hyjal/TK/SSC were too easy. Even if there is a final boss on a hard mode that is very hard, the other 98.923% of most new mmos are still way too easy for my taste. im not saying all mmos have to be hard, but overall I havent been able to find one that I consider to be all that challenging outside of a few bosses on hard mode.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by azmundai

    first ... you list non-MMOs with difficulty settings. I can't really comment on single player games as they bore me to tears.

    then you list sunwell. the general theme of the complaint is that mmos have become too easy. there are not many people who thought BT/Hyjal/TK/SSC were too easy. Even if there is a final boss on a hard mode that is very hard, the other 98.923% of most new mmos are still way too easy for my taste. im not saying all mmos have to be hard, but overall I havent been able to find one that I consider to be all that challenging outside of a few bosses on hard mode.

    Did you read the article?

    I guess not.

    So i suppose you have all the achievement on all the hard mode stuff? Care to show us?

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,782Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azmundai

    first ... you list non-MMOs with difficulty settings. I can't really comment on single player games as they bore me to tears.

    then you list sunwell. the general theme of the complaint is that mmos have become too easy. there are not many people who thought BT/Hyjal/TK/SSC were too easy. Even if there is a final boss on a hard mode that is very hard, the other 98.923% of most new mmos are still way too easy for my taste. im not saying all mmos have to be hard, but overall I havent been able to find one that I consider to be all that challenging outside of a few bosses on hard mode.

    So, for an example lets use WoW because it is a common game. If you make a human character at Northshire Abbey, and go as level 1 to Westfall, you wouldn't find it hard? 

    Like I said, I think it's all on how you play and if you are so good that you are better than everyone else take the steps and make it more challenging for yourself. 

    For me most games are set just about perfect because I'm a casual player and my enjoyment has been preset by the designers. You and elite players like you may have to deviate from the norm.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rusque

    Despite all that, people love to claim it's a super hard game the likes of which hasn't been seen in ages!  All I know is the when D3 launched without power level options, Inferno spanked just about everyone. And no one came running to the forums talking about how amazing D3 was and how Blizzard made the hardest game ever! No, everyone cried that it was too difficult.

     

    I remember that. When i get to Inferno Act 2.. it is like hitting a wall. You die in seconds no matter where you go. And i am not even playing hard core.

    Everyone is happy when you can tune the difficulty.

    I remember the same with  CATA. They made H dungeon a bit more difficult and everyone is QQIng so Blizz has to nerf.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I think what "those" people want is hardcore content for everything.  I mean raids only compose a small portion of the game.

    It is a common complaint.  Those old time gamer start a game and even the critter is hard.  And in the wow era, you have to do many of the "easy" content first to get to the hard conent.

    Another myth is very small percent of wow players even raid right?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    I think what "those" people want is hardcore content for everything.  I mean raids only compose a small portion of the game.

    Really? It is well known that you spend more time in end game than leveling. It is well known that raid is the end game "serious" MMO gamers spend their time on.

    How is it small when it takes the most gameplay time? Or btw, throw in the 5-man dungeon achievements, and challenge dungeons .. those are hard.

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member
    Remove gear from the game.  People waste all this time upgrading their gear and miss the whole point of the game... which is to merely kill things... over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.  If it wasn't for the gear, people would kill it once and say "meh" been there done that.  You dangle a shiny before them and that rat they've killed a million times before has meaning to them.
  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member

    Video games are way too easy these days without having "easy" and "normal" modes.  A lot of people probably choose "easy" or "normal" when it comes to settings so they can experience the game quickly, and then plan to beat it on hard mode.  Of course once they have experienced the game they probably move on to something else and never bother beating it on "hard". 

    MMORPGs are just about time invested rather than actual player skill (beyond the most rudimentary form of  whack-a-mole button pushing) so difficulty in these types of games just means the player needs to invest more time.

    Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
    image
    I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    lol .. no one disagree with me yet? That is a refreshing change.

    I will slightly disagree to save you disappointment. I agree that there are end game raids insanely difficult and games where you can crank up the level if required, where I disagree is that the levelling part of a MMORPG games are easy, mash buttons, level ping and reward. There should in my opinion be more challenges within the levelling aspects of games.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,782Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    lol .. no one disagree with me yet? That is a refreshing change.

    I will slightly disagree to save you disappointment. I agree that there are end game raids insanely difficult and games where you can crank up the level if required, where I disagree is that the levelling part of a MMORPG games are easy, mash buttons, level ping and reward. There should in my opinion be more challenges within the levelling aspects of games.

    Most games are set up in regions/maps. It's simple enough to move to a more challenging area. There are few mmo's out there that restrict normal pve movement to these areas. The only restrictions I can remember in most games is instanced areas that require level or player numbers. /shrug

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by azmundai first ... you list non-MMOs with difficulty settings. I can't really comment on single player games as they bore me to tears. then you list sunwell. the general theme of the complaint is that mmos have become too easy. there are not many people who thought BT/Hyjal/TK/SSC were too easy. Even if there is a final boss on a hard mode that is very hard, the other 98.923% of most new mmos are still way too easy for my taste. im not saying all mmos have to be hard, but overall I havent been able to find one that I consider to be all that challenging outside of a few bosses on hard mode.
    Did you read the article?

    I guess not.

    So i suppose you have all the achievement on all the hard mode stuff? Care to show us?



    you have to be the most argumentative person on this site.

    yes I read the article.

    the first half of it flat out says that dungeons are faceroll compared to 10 man strath.

    AGAIN .. hard mode encounters make up ~4% of the game. I haven't had time to raid since Ulduar, which I found adequately difficult (as opposed to the instance before it .. whatever it was called .. tournament something or other /yawn). Beyond that, I don't chase achievements and was never an ultra hardcore raider that cared whether I finished every boss let alone danced with every boss in a specific way for a mount or title. The game used to offer plenty of other challenges which it doesn't offer anymore.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 807Member Uncommon

    Maybe there should be difficulty levels in MMOs similar to single player games. I know it's frustrating trying to play something way too hard, but at the same time it's mind numbing boring to play something with zero challenge.

    I'm sure f. ex. WoW has gained lots of new subs by 'dumbing down' their game for casuals who found the game too challenging in the past, but they have also lost lots of people who think it's way too easy now (I'm one of them). Blizzard themselves have stated that more people have played and quit than playing and subbed to WoW currently.

    In my opinion a gaming experience which gives no challenge is worthless and just wasted time in every way. Currently i'm playing Civ 5 on 2nd or 3rd hardest level which i can seldom beat, but that's the very reason why i still play this game. Also, I'm playing Candy Crush Saga in Facebook, which sometimes makes me wanting to rip my hair off, but i return to it again and again until i beat the 'impossible level'.

    We already have servers with different sets of rules in MMOs. We have PvE, PvP, RP, RP-PvP, and what not. Why not have some servers with more challenging content? And don't say people wouldn't play on such servers. WoW gained 10+ mil. subs before the casualization they are doing now.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member


    Originally posted by deniter
    Maybe there should be difficulty levels in MMOs similar to single player games. I know it's frustrating trying to play something way too hard, but at the same time it's mind numbing boring to play something with zero challenge.I'm sure f. ex. WoW has gained lots of new subs by 'dumbing down' their game for casuals who found the game too challenging in the past, but they have also lost lots of people who think it's way too easy now (I'm one of them). Blizzard themselves have stated that more people have played and quit than playing and subbed to WoW currently.In my opinion a gaming experience which gives no challenge is worthless and just wasted time in every way. Currently i'm playing Civ 5 on 2nd or 3rd hardest level which i can seldom beat, but that's the very reason why i still play this game. Also, I'm playing Candy Crush Saga in Facebook, which sometimes makes me wanting to rip my hair off, but i return to it again and again until i beat the 'impossible level'.We already have servers with different sets of rules in MMOs. We have PvE, PvP, RP, RP-PvP, and what not. Why not have some servers with more challenging content? And don't say people wouldn't play on such servers. WoW gained 10+ mil. subs before the casualization they are doing now.

    maybe there could be difficulty servers?

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member
    Do you play with Barbies and Kennys OP ?
    if you do and no one else here does not,do you think that the reason is because it is too easy?
    your number magic shows that its pretty hardcore.

    theres something wrong with your logic.



    Let's internet

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