I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.
If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...
I couldn't agree more. UO back in 1998 was hard, today MMOs are not after playing for so long. Yea they could have 1 machince wipe boss but what fun would that be?
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Lovely_Lalyafter we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min?other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.
Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.
And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.
Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.
Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.
Originally posted by Lovely_Lalyafter we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min?other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.
Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.
And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.
Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.
Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.
You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.
The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.
The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.
Originally posted by Lovely_Lalyafter we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min?other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.
Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.
And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.
Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.
Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.
Your presenting a false choice.
Something can be frustrating and hard, or hard and frustrating. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Your playing semantics, the words really do mean the same thing in this context.
You repeatedly lose to any encounter due to a variety of adversities and you then become frustrated as a response. It doesn't stop being hard just because your frustrated, you may think its bad design because your having difficulty completing the encounter. However games like diablo III have the foresight to let the playerbase have some control of the difficulty of the encounters they will face. However like any good themepark game, it has plenty of elements that the developers still don't let the players control. For example like what affixes will be on the mobs.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by XiaokiOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by Lovely_Lalyafter we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min?other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.
The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.
The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.
Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?
Yeah, its a perfect example of fight mechanics ....very BAD fight mechanics.
Good fight mechanics would give skilled players several different ways to either avoid or survive any scenario, however in Diablo 3 you get these "Death Touch" situations where there is little to nothing that you can do.
I did play Diablo 3 but I stopped playing because these kind of situations happened more often than they should have.
If Im going to play a game where RNG decides whether a I win or lose I can just flip a quarter instead and that doesnt cost $60.
Originally posted by Lovely_Lalyafter we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min?other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.
You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.
The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.
The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.
Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?
Yeah, its a perfect example of fight mechanics ....very BAD fight mechanics.
Good fight mechanics would give skilled players several different ways to either avoid or survive any scenario, however in Diablo 3 you get these "Death Touch" situations where there is little to nothing that you can do.
I did play Diablo 3 but I stopped playing because these kind of situations happened more often than they should have.
If Im going to play a game where RNG decides whether a I win or lose I can just flip a quarter instead and that doesnt cost $60.
Now you change your position .. so you agree they are mechanics based challenges?
And "bad"? There *are* several different ways to either avoid or survive .. just that you have to be good to do it. Apparently you know little about the game.
For example, vortex can be defeated by either standing in a doorway to prevent the mob from pulling you.
fire on the ground .. you can move out of.
and plenty of other examples. If you think D3 is just about RNG, then you are just a bad player. In fact, go watch youtube on how good players defeat those abilities.
Elitists want one type of difficulty, and that is one of time. If everything takes a long time, they are happy. Because time is something they have that many others don't and they want to feel special because of it.
You summed that up really well, Rusque. Time spent does not equal skill if in order to get there, you just do the same thing over and over until you reach some sort of arbitrary point known as "end game".
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by XiaokiOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by XiaokiOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by Lovely_Lalyafter we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min?other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?Yeah, its a perfect example of fight mechanics ....very BAD fight mechanics.Good fight mechanics would give skilled players several different ways to either avoid or survive any scenario, however in Diablo 3 you get these "Death Touch" situations where there is little to nothing that you can do.I did play Diablo 3 but I stopped playing because these kind of situations happened more often than they should have.If Im going to play a game where RNG decides whether a I win or lose I can just flip a quarter instead and that doesnt cost $60.Now you change your position .. so you agree they are mechanics based challenges?
And "bad"? There *are* several different ways to either avoid or survive .. just that you have to be good to do it. Apparently you know little about the game.
For example, vortex can be defeated by either standing in a doorway to prevent the mob from pulling you.
fire on the ground .. you can move out of.
and plenty of other examples. If you think D3 is just about RNG, then you are just a bad player. In fact, go watch youtube on how good players defeat those abilities.
I didnt change my position on anything.
First you say there are several ways to defeat abilities that can lead to a Death Touch combination and then you list 1. Way to prove your point.
So, to avoid possibly running into packs that may have this ability do you go around pulling everything to a doorway to prevent it?
And if there are no nearby doorways or other obstacles to prevent it? What then? Die?
And to top off your post you end with a personal insult. Classy.
Comments
I couldn't agree more. UO back in 1998 was hard, today MMOs are not after playing for so long. Yea they could have 1 machince wipe boss but what fun would that be?
Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.
And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.
Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.
Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.
You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.
The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.
The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.
Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?
Your presenting a false choice.
Something can be frustrating and hard, or hard and frustrating. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Your playing semantics, the words really do mean the same thing in this context.
You repeatedly lose to any encounter due to a variety of adversities and you then become frustrated as a response. It doesn't stop being hard just because your frustrated, you may think its bad design because your having difficulty completing the encounter. However games like diablo III have the foresight to let the playerbase have some control of the difficulty of the encounters they will face. However like any good themepark game, it has plenty of elements that the developers still don't let the players control. For example like what affixes will be on the mobs.
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating. Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty. Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.
You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.
The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.
The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.
Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?
Yeah, its a perfect example of fight mechanics ....very BAD fight mechanics.
Good fight mechanics would give skilled players several different ways to either avoid or survive any scenario, however in Diablo 3 you get these "Death Touch" situations where there is little to nothing that you can do.
I did play Diablo 3 but I stopped playing because these kind of situations happened more often than they should have.
If Im going to play a game where RNG decides whether a I win or lose I can just flip a quarter instead and that doesnt cost $60.
Now you change your position .. so you agree they are mechanics based challenges?
And "bad"? There *are* several different ways to either avoid or survive .. just that you have to be good to do it. Apparently you know little about the game.
For example, vortex can be defeated by either standing in a doorway to prevent the mob from pulling you.
fire on the ground .. you can move out of.
and plenty of other examples. If you think D3 is just about RNG, then you are just a bad player. In fact, go watch youtube on how good players defeat those abilities.
You summed that up really well, Rusque. Time spent does not equal skill if in order to get there, you just do the same thing over and over until you reach some sort of arbitrary point known as "end game".
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating. Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty. Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.
You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics. The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die. The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities. Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?
Yeah, its a perfect example of fight mechanics ....very BAD fight mechanics. Good fight mechanics would give skilled players several different ways to either avoid or survive any scenario, however in Diablo 3 you get these "Death Touch" situations where there is little to nothing that you can do. I did play Diablo 3 but I stopped playing because these kind of situations happened more often than they should have. If Im going to play a game where RNG decides whether a I win or lose I can just flip a quarter instead and that doesnt cost $60.
Now you change your position .. so you agree they are mechanics based challenges?
And "bad"? There *are* several different ways to either avoid or survive .. just that you have to be good to do it. Apparently you know little about the game.
For example, vortex can be defeated by either standing in a doorway to prevent the mob from pulling you.
fire on the ground .. you can move out of.
and plenty of other examples. If you think D3 is just about RNG, then you are just a bad player. In fact, go watch youtube on how good players defeat those abilities.
I didnt change my position on anything.
First you say there are several ways to defeat abilities that can lead to a Death Touch combination and then you list 1. Way to prove your point.
So, to avoid possibly running into packs that may have this ability do you go around pulling everything to a doorway to prevent it?
And if there are no nearby doorways or other obstacles to prevent it? What then? Die?
And to top off your post you end with a personal insult. Classy.
And you said challenge is not due to combat mechanics .. way to change your story and not admitting it.