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Happy there are no raids.
taurak
Member Posts: 174
I for one think its an excellent decision to not include raids in this game.
For one thing, WoW has destroyed raiding for us all, R.I.P. everquest 1.
In everquest you had to have a minimum of 50 people to kill majority of raid bosses in the game. Wow started out with 40, whic h that was a lot of fun. Dropped down to 20, which that was "ok", then down to 10, which sucks.
A raid boss should be an epic encounter, with an epic difficulty... Not 10 guys slapping bosses around.
I'm an old school gamer here, so take this post for what you will, but I have quit playing MMORPG's since the wussy whiney sniveling snot nosed kid crowd has dominated the scene and influenced games, very negatively in my oppinion.
Kids want what they want, and they want it right now, as easy as possible, and when they get it they cry cause it was easy, but cry even harder when its not easy.
Just my 2 cents.
Comments
I am not happy to be honest. I would rather prefer having raids but hard ones with 40+ players as you said.. those were best times
I will play teso for sure, non stop from headstart but not sure how long I last because quests are last thing that I care about in mmorpg. I care about progress and maxxing out gear, longer it takes to grind it, harder it takes to drop bosses .. then better.
I'll copy paste this to this thread as well:
4 man groups that band with other 4 man groups against larger and more difficult encounters in the end-game PvE zones. That's the closest thing to raiding this game will have. The difference? If that bunch of 4 man groups manage to down the "end-game champion" (difficult NPC's or "bosses" are called by Champions in ESO); All of those groups get their own loot tables. This means that killing a "raid boss" (an encounter that requires a large group) will benefit more than 1-2 people at the time. Not only this is more rewarding, it removes the pain in the ass "Raid once a week so one of your guild mates might get one piece of gear, and you'd wait for yours for months."
The "no raids" thing is a misconception. We've got raids, but they are not implemented like your typical raids, also developers dont call them raids because it would create more misconceptions.
A goog MMO allows people to keep progressing wether it is through levels, Gear or an AA system with active skills.
they should add as many ways as possible for people to keep progressing, PvP instances, RvR PvP, solo PvE, group PvE, Raids, Crafting, whatever, as long as everyone can keep progressing in a way they love to play. Endless progression is what makes the greatest MMO ever.
No reason to remove things from endgame, they should add more options, dynamic world events, personal stories, instanced dungeons for small teams, groups and raids, open world dubgeons and world bosses, name it and add it, diversity is the key to a succesfull endgame and longlevity.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
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Really? wow. Do you apply those same principles to life too? Lilke at a new job do you tell your boss to please not give you a raise for as long as possible? And to make you work overtime without pay every day of the week or something? You're hardcore dude.
I have to agree. WoW has had some pretty linear raids, but damn, even those were good. I played through tons of MMOs (especially AAA) and honestly their raids couldn't even scratch WoW's. I didn't like LOTRO's raids (I generally don't like LOTRO's combat, it's a pity because I love Middle Earth), SWTOR's were super boring, I honestly didn't like EQ at all and so on...
It's still all subjective, WoW was one of my first MMOs so it's kinda normal for me to give it a little more praise than it deservers. But the same things goes for people whose first MMO was EQ or something.
I'm never thrilled when I see a game removing raiding. The truth is a single game has yet to hold my interest end-game without it and I'm not even a big raider. For the most part I just like knowing that there is still progression when I hit level cap and raiding does that.
Wouldn't be an issue if a single game had effectively replaced raiding* with something else that still allows players to progress but I certainly haven't seen it.
*Those are my own views on the recent crop of games. Please don't quote me then list your favorite game and how it's different, I simply don't care and it's not worth arguing over.
Raiding gives another step in progression.
Never a bad thing, IMO.
The idea that raiding has to give the "best" gear is a bit dated though.
I truly believe an "if you build it, they will come" approach would work for raiding in a MMO.
Exclussive skins, vanity rewards, titles, mounts etc. would be enough reward-based motivation for many to still put forth the effort to build raid groups and tackle raids.
You have to remember, for a true "raiding" guild, downing the bosses and gearing up is assumed.
Hard modes, extra challenges, server/world firsts is the target.
Not "same gear+1".
ESO wont offer exclusives to raiding. A lot of Elder Scrolls fans dislike or never liked MMOs. The second those people hear "You have to step into a raid to get something you can't otherwise" the freaking out begins.
Also, not sure how I feel on your assumption. I dont think Raiders would raid for long if they cant get gear upgrades. Raids with no gear incentive is fun the first few times -- But what keeps you doing it 40 times is the chance to progress your character. So not sure if I agree with that
I actually really enjoy the 10 man dungeon.
But the main thing to me is I want progression dungeon. Even small group is fine. I enjoyed warhammer where there are hard 5 man dungeon with timer that you can only do it once every week. Even that is enjoyable to me.
I think that is where the challenge modes and unique skins/titles etc. come into play.
I, for example, still raided Nax 25 (WotLK) long and hard after clearing many, many times trying to get all the acheivements and titles.
It STILL bothers me that we were about 10 seconds away from "The Immortal" in Nax 25 during KT fight and a Mind Controlled Paladin blew up a Rogue in a GCD and we lost the achievement. (Immortal was killing every boss in Nax 25 in the same lockout without a single player death on a boss.)
Sarth +3D didn't really give great loot, like 1-2 drops you wouldn't get otherwise, but the titles + bragging rights on the server were worth the days/weeks of fine tuning strategy and gearing out.
We used to run two 10-person groups during the Ulduar raid cycle, and we'd compete as to who could get farther faster and who could beat the Hard-modes first.
It really didn't matter that the 25-person mode had better gear at the time, I and many others in the guild got a LOT more enjoyment out of the 10-man runs.
When I compare things now to raiding in Vanilla, BC, Cata... WotLK really, really stands out.
I absolutely loved Kara, Ulduar, and ICC.
That is how raiding should be, IMO.
"Raiding for all" should NOT be "trivialize everything" - it should be "give me options."
I like Raid Finder, and I miss the 10-25 split.
Larger group size forced a guild to recruit, be more social, retain players and treat people with respect.
Raid Finder is a great way to dip your toes in the pond though - I like that.
I can do a "quick" raid on my time, on my own schedule and progress my toon in "easy PUG mode".
You're part of a small minority. Why do you think Blizz has to keep pumping out Raids? The second there feels like there is no more content people slowly un-subscribe. Hence the Thunder Isle Patch. Blizzard also said theyre done making new 5 man heroics this expansion, although apparently they are making heroic 3 man scenarios next patch.
No one wants to get caught in the limbo that youre doing dailies everyday with no new content to tackle. I've never beaten the major boss of a WoW expansion, and I've also taken 4+ month long breaks in every expansion, not even touching the Cata or Pandaria zones.
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Heroic 3-man scenarios are already in--at least for a guild 3some you can set the mode to heroic. Don't think you can with a PUG though.
Those scenarios are also a very popular (the Q for random ones is pretty well guaranteed to be <1 minute) way of gearing up to beginning raid quality. The drops are equivalent to heroic dungeons. They are also non-trinity.
As to the need to add raid content... 95% of that is just the logical outcome of raising level caps and the new story with each expansion. Panda is the first time they have made it a point to add major content with x.y patches.
People do come and go from WOW all the time but the raiding population--at least those who do it regularly--is still a small minority. I'm not sure that hardcore raiders are more or less likely than anyone else to take breaks and come back.
People take breaks from WOW primarily to try some other AAA MMO that looks good to them. Once they settle down in the new one and the novelty wears off they often quit and go back--the closer the new one is to WOW in important gameplay elements, the more likely this is to happen it seems--particularly when the endgame components are WOW-like but not better or any more fun.
The only serious chance any MMO has of retaining the WOW tourists is to provide an end-game activity that is truly different from WOW's and more fun. It's funny that we get thread after thread here about how ESO is lacking because they won't compete head-to-head with WOW raids at the end.
The only chance ESO has is to provide a persistent AvA environment that is more fun to do several times a week than the end-game dailies, scenarios, raids and scenario PVP progression WOW provides. If they stick to making that fun and challenging, they have a shot at retaining a large base. This would be something that WOW does not have. But if they start down the road of trying to compete with WOW's instanced PVE content, they'll loose just like everyone else who has tried has lost.
So... yup, I'm happy raids are not a priority.
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I say this a few times already. Even if you remove raid from wow. Wow probably still beat almost every themepark mmo in terms of content.
But you do have a point, because it does cost a pretty bunch of resource to implement raid content.
Pretty sure the old themepark MMOs still going have more than WoW, EQ does.
EQ2 might, not sure.
Which you prefer is another question.
I don't know where your getting your information but GW2 isn't losing players at any higher rate than any other MMOG, including WoW. In fact as of last report it has 3 million users, which in case you didn't know is more than WoW had at this point in its life cycle. It's also still selling like hotcakes, topping charts in the US and europe, consistantly in the top 10 or 20 lists for amazon, green man gaming, Uk PC weekly sales charts, etc. I know some folks on here would like to think it's dying, but in point of fact it's the first MMOG since WoW to still be growing at an exponential rate six months after launch.
Now on topic, I've posted to this frequently. I am in favor of large-group content, guild-focused content, but I am against raiding for three reasons.
1: It's exclusivity. The top raid content is often only experienced by ~10% of a playerbase at the most, and because many MMOGs like WoW release content specifically catering to the people who do this content (and constantly scream there isn't enough of it) they aren't developing for the vast majority of their player base.. as they should be.
2: Content is only fun the first few times you run it, but this content is designed specifically to require you run it many, many times to build up enough tokens to buy their rewards or get the ~5% chance drops off the bosses. Because of the repetition required, and the fact that it's only fun the first time or two you beat a big boss, the life-cycle of a raid is relatively small. It also creates rendundant content that, especially in games with a strong verticle advancement system (like WoW), becomes redundant and useless. How many old raids are there in WoW that are useless today. Sure they are updating old ones to make them new and fresh but once a new expansion hits, they too will be useless as the content is outgrown, gear becomes significantly less powerful than the simple greens and blues the next expansion offers. This IMHO is a major failing of WoW.
3: Raids are designed by MMOG developers to addict gamers to their games. Those 5% drop rate items create a very nice feeling, as dopamine floods the brain. These raids are designed to have as many of those as possible, as often as possible. I think one reason for WoW's success is it constantly rewards you, constantly floods your body with dopamine. In the end the only reason raiding exists is to help addict the player base to your game. Why? So you'll keep playing. Time = Money in most MMOGs. The more time you need to invest to get that gear which you WANT because of the feeling it gives you, the more you pay that company. It's why WoW has so many players who only play because of all the money they've spent on their characters over the years. (I have a friend who leaves and goes back at least four times a year. The reason he always goes back isn't because 'it's fun', it's because 'I've spent thousands on my characters. I can't stop playing because I'll feel like that was a waste.'
I think developers are starting to create alternatives to raiding. TESO will have group content that simply scales the more people you have. Guild Wars 1/2 takes gear out of the equasion (though GW2 to a lesser extent) that makes raiding simply unecessary. GW2 is introducing 'guild events' that a guild can work towards and complete for fun. Right now they are fairly simple, just side activities that aren't to complex but build a guild community, but the future could being some great stuff for guilds to do.
I think as MMOGs increasingly drop that monthly fee, the necessity of gameplay that addicts the gamer is decreasing significantly. Those 6 hour raids that take 2 hours to setup are simply not necessary anymore as for newer MMOGs time != money anymore. So MMOGs can become more like.. every other gaming genre. You play because it's fun, not because you want xx item so you need to spend another 100 hours in dungeon y until you get it so you can do the next tier of raids. Content can become less repetitive, can cycle more often as content can be designed for everyone, not just the minority of 'top tier raiders'. To me, this means MMOGs can move forward and evolve instead of being static, for the first time in a decade. We're already seeing this with games like GW2, TESO, Wildstar and World of Darkness.
ya I mean, no one knows how many players GW2 manage to retain. That is some information they didn't disclose, and they didn't want to disclose. Even the developer says himself the financial department dont' want him to disclose it.
Honestly I think GW2 did a great job on retenting their player. But if you think there are remotely close to 3 million players playing GW2 now you are delusional. I'll be quite surpise if they even manage to retain half of their players. But even that is "very good".
I mean you see the recent history of other mmorpg. I think GW2 did a very good job. I mean only 1/3 of people on wow trial actually go to sub, and that number is much lower for Eve. Those are 2 of the most mmorpg games on the market now. MMORPG players are hard to plese.
Totally True.
Why can't the "raid" be a world boss that is very tough and has anti-zerg properties built into the encounter?
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Well I expect from my boss to give me more money and faster promotion if I work more and harder than someone else
I dont know why you play mmorpgs but I play them so because I want to have my own fantasy world avatar where I can progress him as much as possible so I can have unique avatar that other players envy me .... but If I achieve this in month I just quit because I have nothing else to do than creating an alt? Same goes in real life, if I hit the gym for one month and have body like Dexter Jackson, P. Heath I would quit then too, progression is keeping me going to gym ... so yea, Its all about progression, if I have nothing to work toward, I have no motivation to play.