Originally posted by EluldorElder Scrolls Online has the IP going for it, all sorts of people know about it compared to WildStar. Although I'm looking forward to W* myself, I think it needs to gain some momentum in the marketing field to get decent initial sales.
That didn't help SWTOR at all. A crappy mmo is a crappy mmo.
yet it still has a good amount of players playing it. people think just because something is different it automatically is better or has a longer shelf life.
i don't think any game these days will have a long overall shelf life, this game will be no different.
personally, i cant play an mmo with cartoony graphics, which is why i am not really a fan of any of the eastern style mmo's either.
wow was probably the most cartoony game i every played and even its graphics bothered me, especially the character models.
Originally posted by EluldorElder Scrolls Online has the IP going for it, all sorts of people know about it compared to WildStar. Although I'm looking forward to W* myself, I think it needs to gain some momentum in the marketing field to get decent initial sales.
That didn't help SWTOR at all. A crappy mmo is a crappy mmo.
so you think it would of sold that many copies and still have as many players as it does if it was a no name scifi IP? of course the IP helps like in anything. and when it's a IP like star wars well that is HUGE.. i don't think he means in terms of it being a good or bad game just in terms of how many will know about it and get it
on a personal note, I am sworn off large IP games until they have been out for a while. I am a lot more willing to try a non-IP, because large IPs hogtie the developers into impossible situations. There hasn't been a good large-IP release since wow (and at least wow was a video game IP). All of the other top(ish) MMOs, Rift, Aion .. are non-IPs. Granted they aren't blowing AoC/SWTOR/WAR out of the water ... but i'd prefer to support a new concept, not a movie crammed into an mmo. Just look at console games made from movie IPs .. worst games ever.
I guess you could call Guild Wars a large IP? In which case I guess there has been one large IP that was good. Not great for me, but still a good game. Again though it's a video game ip .. there really seems to be something to that, at least as far as the kind of games I like to play.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by Eluldor Elder Scrolls Online has the IP going for it, all sorts of people know about it compared to WildStar. Although I'm looking forward to W* myself, I think it needs to gain some momentum in the marketing field to get decent initial sales.
That didn't help SWTOR at all. A crappy mmo is a crappy mmo.
People like to bash SWTOR, but even with their horrible F2P model if you look at the latest Raptr stats for the week, they are neck in neck with GW2 for time played. Either GW2 is doing terribly or SWTOR is doing well:
But I was really impressed with Wildstar. After being sorely disappointed with recent NCSoft MMOs (GW2 and Aion), hopefully Wildstar is the one that does NCSoft right. I was not a fan of the game pre-Pax but am a fan of it now.
No joke, it's too cartoony and there's not enough decent looking character designs. Additionally the combat and PvP looks like run of the mill stuff. Yeah, people shouldn't judge by graphics, but they do. Look how badly Wizardry Online got booed out because of it's graphics.
Originally posted by funcon I have a feeling, this game is really gonna be big. Bigger than Rift and GW2. And will be bigger than Elder Scrolls Online. It will challenge ArcheAge for the 2nd biggest MMORPG behind WoW.
There's no way. While I have my frustrations with some of their design choices, I will ultimately play it. However, the reality is that many people are going to instantly write it off for the graphic style and also general themepark conventions that many are growing tired of after 10+ years of similar mechanics. Sure it will have a few new things like every new themepark, which for me is enough to get me to give it a shot. But being realistic, a lot of people won't give it a shot because of that. My guess is that the graphic style is going to be the biggest thing that many will instantly write it off for.
Originally posted by Eluldor Elder Scrolls Online has the IP going for it, all sorts of people know about it compared to WildStar. Although I'm looking forward to W* myself, I think it needs to gain some momentum in the marketing field to get decent initial sales.
That didn't help SWTOR at all. A crappy mmo is a crappy mmo.
so you think it would of sold that many copies and still have as many players as it does if it was a no name scifi IP? of course the IP helps like in anything. and when it's a IP like star wars well that is HUGE.. i don't think he means in terms of it being a good or bad game just in terms of how many will know about it and get it
It helps in terms of box sales, not in becoming a better game. SW:TOR is garbage.
that was my point IP gets interest and sells copies.. wildstar is at a disadvantage against TESO because of this no matter which is a better game..
Everyone thought SWTOR would knock GW2 sales out of the water, didn't turn out that way though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by funcon I have a feeling, this game is really gonna be big. Bigger than Rift and GW2. And will be bigger than Elder Scrolls Online. It will challenge ArcheAge for the 2nd biggest MMORPG behind WoW.
same shit as usual... stop dreaming with the promised game... it wont come... you already had your promised game... maybe it was wow, or tera, or i dont know, probably was the first or the second mmo you played...
You need something really different for enjoy, Wildstar looks the same.
Wildstar is reviving a LOT of features that the genre has been systematically killing off in the last decade; large-scale raiding, housing, true character interdependency (through classes AND paths). Those things alone are going to attract a lot of players who currently don't have much available to them.
They also have a huge focus on the social side of the game which IMO is the core missing component of all the flops of the last decade.
I'll reserve judgement until I actually get my hands on the game. For me personally though, even if it isn't the best MMO it could be, the simple fact that it is the ONLY game offering certain core features like housing at the moment is going to likely be enough to keep me playing (and my god it's one of the best housing systems I've seen).
However while both are mmorpgs the games are entirely different. Hell Wildstar is very different from wow as well as there is player housing, paths, dynamic questing and tons of other stuff. Cant really compare that to wow just because it is a hotkey game.
Aside from that while I am really into Wildstar more than any other game. I feel like Wildstar is gonna be a lot like rift overall in the sales department anyway. If NCSoft wants to boost sales they will release the game as a buy to play title just like guild wars 2 and charge 60 bucks for the game with a good item mall. Economy has changed since mmos first began. It's not all that easy to get 14.99 a month after the people have to buy the game to begin with.
Wow has the exception because it has had 8 years to grow. To keep people coming back ever so often. It has proven to be a decent game. The average mmo gamer are casual players now days.
So while some of us might think it is the greatest game ever made. It is a new title. It is a mmorpg. It's not a super well known title.
ArchAge, is a ok game. The game is huge in the asian culture but world wide not really. The game is date already graphically. It doesn't have a lot to offer especially because it is designed with hardcore players at heart. Do I myself want to play it ? Of course I do, but again it's not all that big of a game.
There is actually a pretty sizeable movement against NCSoft and anything they publish. There are people who just will not take another chance on games that will get shut down if they don't fit the mold. It has been most noticeable with the City of Heroes (former) players but players of other games shut down after 1-2 years have the same mindset.
Obviously GW2 has done well but for a straight sub game, it will be interesting to see what the market will be on this. Maybe by the time the game comes out it will have subsided enough to not have any kind of impact but as we saw with SOE and SWG, some people will never forgive or forget.
There is actually a pretty sizeable movement against NCSoft and anything they publish. There are people who just will not take another chance on games that will get shut down if they don't fit the mold. It has been most noticeable with the City of Heroes (former) players but players of other games shut down after 1-2 years have the same mindset.
Obviously GW2 has done well but for a straight sub game, it will be interesting to see what the market will be on this. Maybe by the time the game comes out it will have subsided enough to not have any kind of impact but as we saw with SOE and SWG, some people will never forgive or forget.
You make a valid point here as I'm still a little bitter about them closing TR. If I decide to purchase this game I'll probably not invest too much time into it for that reason.
I don't know. I guess I'm too old for the target audience. Not to mention that I saw too many MMORPG releases, and know that the developers always exaggerate everything.
No joke, it's too cartoony and there's not enough decent looking character designs. Additionally the combat and PvP looks like run of the mill stuff. Yeah, people shouldn't judge by graphics, but they do. Look how badly Wizardry Online got booed out because of it's graphics.
It wasn't just graphics. Perma death in a PvP game turns a lot of people off.
There is actually a pretty sizeable movement against NCSoft and anything they publish. There are people who just will not take another chance on games that will get shut down if they don't fit the mold. It has been most noticeable with the City of Heroes (former) players but players of other games shut down after 1-2 years have the same mindset.
Obviously GW2 has done well but for a straight sub game, it will be interesting to see what the market will be on this. Maybe by the time the game comes out it will have subsided enough to not have any kind of impact but as we saw with SOE and SWG, some people will never forgive or forget.
Good points. NCsoft has axed way too many western games for it to be a simple case of cutting their losses. Either they had really bad judgement to start with, or their high level suits have totally unrealistic expectations (or both). As for me, I still fault them for axing Tabula Rasa (I also fault RG for splitting his focus). Many people are well past annoyed with them about how they handled City of Heros/Villians. Who knows what game they will axe next?
Originally posted by Livnthedream I don't think so. I think it will settle around 300-500k and play well within the player base it can carve out from the others. But then after playing Archeage, especially being under Trion, it has little hope of doing particularly well in the west.
heh well that is my friend very underrated number for players, if even few years old tera have 1.2 million players.
basicly what vanilla wow creators have done here is to import world of warcraft in space and as blizzard never wanted to make world of starcraft here is wildstar. so no way this game is going to be let to dust.
A game that doesnt do good. Its a no brainer. I approve of their approach, MMO should die as imo going to maintenance mode and milking/nickle&diming is a far worse faith for an MMO.
A game that doesnt do good. Its a no brainer. I approve of their approach, MMO should die as imo going to maintenance mode and milking/nickle&diming is a far worse faith for an MMO.
Some would call it living dead.
Like SoE games?
On topic: this game is tough to judge. Following their facebook and fan site forums it's obvious that the community is going to be very similar to the WoW community. People are already begging for the game to be turned to easy mode, and the game hasn't even been released yet. It's going to draw a lot of attention from WoW players who did everything possible to ruin that game. The question will be whether or not the devs of Wildstar stick to their vision or cater to the casuals and skilless.
Like all MMO's, if the devs stick to their vision the game should turn out exciting. If not, it will end up being a hodge podge of crap or a casual friendly snooze fest devoid of all the things RPG fans enjoy in gaming. I'd love to see a PvE focused game that asks players to be social and good would be a breath of fresh air in the current MMO market.
When I first heard about this game months ago, I thought "meh, I'll pass." I've been playing MMO's since EQ1, and I am currently playing GW2. While I like the shiney realistic graphics of GW2, I do miss the cartoney look of WoW. I like the cartoony story book look. Wildstar reminds me of TITAN AE in some ways. Something about that art style makes the game feel more like a game to me. I don't need ultra realistic water, and landscapes that look photo-realistic. I can see that by looking out my window.
So... being bored with GW2, my wife and I went online to find our "new" game to follow. I don't know why but I decided to see what is going on with Wildstar. I watched every single video on their website. I really like their sense of humor, the art style, the fact that it's sci-fi with elements of fantasy. I like that there is raiding. I like that there are factions. I like that this game has so many open ended possibilities. I don't care that it looks like WoW in some respects. I enjoyed WoW for the 7 years I played it, but eventually it was time to move on. You know what else I like. I like that there are mounts, (ground and flying). I like that there is player housing, that the game's combat system is more free-form than WoW, but similar to Tera and GW2. They are also going to allow modding. I liked having mods in WoW.
I honestly believe that this is the game I have been looking for since I left WoW for SWTOR, TERA, and now GW2.
I can't wait to see more of what they have to show us.
Originally posted by Eluldor Elder Scrolls Online has the IP going for it, all sorts of people know about it compared to WildStar. Although I'm looking forward to W* myself, I think it needs to gain some momentum in the marketing field to get decent initial sales.
That didn't help SWTOR at all. A crappy mmo is a crappy mmo.
so you think it would of sold that many copies and still have as many players as it does if it was a no name scifi IP? of course the IP helps like in anything. and when it's a IP like star wars well that is HUGE.. i don't think he means in terms of it being a good or bad game just in terms of how many will know about it and get it
It helps in terms of box sales, not in becoming a better game. SW:TOR is garbage.
that was my point IP gets interest and sells copies.. wildstar is at a disadvantage against TESO because of this no matter which is a better game..
Everyone thought SWTOR would knock GW2 sales out of the water, didn't turn out that way though.
true although gw1 had a pretty big following.. but again i'd be curious if same exact game was released by bioware in the mass effect universe not star wars how well do you think it would of sold and how many would still be playing today?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Livnthedream I don't think so. I think it will settle around 300-500k and play well within the player base it can carve out from the others. But then after playing Archeage, especially being under Trion, it has little hope of doing particularly well in the west.
heh well that is my friend very underrated number for players, if even few years old tera have 1.2 million players.
basicly what vanilla wow creators have done here is to import world of warcraft in space and as blizzard never wanted to make world of starcraft here is wildstar. so no way this game is going to be let to dust.
Tera has nothing even close to that many players - that's how many ACCOUNTS have ever been created, and I believe it was 1.4 million to be exact. My account is one of those 1.4 million and I played it for 1 day and never again.
Originally posted by Aerowyn housing looks amazing but honestly the cartoony look with no huge IP to back it up will hurt the game a lot imho.. i'm going to try it for sure but don't think it's going to be huge.. we shall see but my guess TESO will draw a lot more people in based on IP alone.
Agree. WS will do ok I think, but it won't match something like TESO. The market penetration of that game on brand awareness alone is staggering.
This may play out well for WS though. Less expectations plus a less 'broad' market may let it thrive in the long run on it's own terms.
A game that doesnt do good. Its a no brainer. I approve of their approach, MMO should die as imo going to maintenance mode and milking/nickle&diming is a far worse faith for an MMO.
Some would call it living dead.
"That doesn't do good" Is my point. It tends to be entirely subjective when it comes to NCsoft and western games. Its to the point that any western studio that would have them for a publisher has to be naive/ignorant and/or desperate. None of those are a good sign for a studio or their potential players.
Mix that in with Nexon being one of their major investors these days, and it doesn't look good.
A game that doesnt do good. Its a no brainer. I approve of their approach, MMO should die as imo going to maintenance mode and milking/nickle&diming is a far worse faith for an MMO.
Some would call it living dead.
"That doesn't do good" Is my point. It tends to be entirely subjective when it comes to NCsoft and western games. Its to the point that any western studio that would have them for a publisher has to be naive/ignorant and/or desperate. None of those are a good sign for a studio or their potential players.
Mix that in with Nexon being one of their major investors these days, and it doesn't look good.
Eh? How it is subjective? They have their standard and if game falls below that it goes down the crapper. They dont drag it out and try to squeeze every penny out of their players while investing almost zero in a game.
You can disagree and have husks of MMOs that are a maintenance mode and suck money of few people that play them.
A game that doesnt do good. Its a no brainer. I approve of their approach, MMO should die as imo going to maintenance mode and milking/nickle&diming is a far worse faith for an MMO.
Some would call it living dead.
"That doesn't do good" Is my point. It tends to be entirely subjective when it comes to NCsoft and western games. Its to the point that any western studio that would have them for a publisher has to be naive/ignorant and/or desperate. None of those are a good sign for a studio or their potential players.
Mix that in with Nexon being one of their major investors these days, and it doesn't look good.
Eh? How it is subjective? They have their standard and if game falls below that it goes down the crapper. They dont drag it out and try to squeeze every penny out of their players while investing almost zero in a game.
You can disagree and have husks of MMOs that are a maintenance mode and suck money of few people that play them.
Have you ever done business analysis? The internal simulations/projections are based upon various assumptions. Those get weighted according to the persons experience/bias/agenda. That impacts the results. That is what I mean by subjective.
As for the rest, the emotional loading of your statement indicates your positional bias, just as mine does.
Comments
It's new. It can't be big. I'll give it one month before the content locusts leave.
MMO launch titles can not keep up with titles which have been out 5+ years. It's impossibru.
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
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The Return of ELITE !
yet it still has a good amount of players playing it. people think just because something is different it automatically is better or has a longer shelf life.
i don't think any game these days will have a long overall shelf life, this game will be no different.
personally, i cant play an mmo with cartoony graphics, which is why i am not really a fan of any of the eastern style mmo's either.
wow was probably the most cartoony game i every played and even its graphics bothered me, especially the character models.
to each their own, though.
I guess you could call Guild Wars a large IP? In which case I guess there has been one large IP that was good. Not great for me, but still a good game. Again though it's a video game ip
.. there really seems to be something to that, at least as far as the kind of games I like to play.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
People like to bash SWTOR, but even with their horrible F2P model if you look at the latest Raptr stats for the week, they are neck in neck with GW2 for time played. Either GW2 is doing terribly or SWTOR is doing well:
http://raptr.com/dashboard/games
But I was really impressed with Wildstar. After being sorely disappointed with recent NCSoft MMOs (GW2 and Aion), hopefully Wildstar is the one that does NCSoft right. I was not a fan of the game pre-Pax but am a fan of it now.
Too much cartoon, not enough poon.
No joke, it's too cartoony and there's not enough decent looking character designs. Additionally the combat and PvP looks like run of the mill stuff. Yeah, people shouldn't judge by graphics, but they do. Look how badly Wizardry Online got booed out because of it's graphics.
There's no way. While I have my frustrations with some of their design choices, I will ultimately play it. However, the reality is that many people are going to instantly write it off for the graphic style and also general themepark conventions that many are growing tired of after 10+ years of similar mechanics. Sure it will have a few new things like every new themepark, which for me is enough to get me to give it a shot. But being realistic, a lot of people won't give it a shot because of that. My guess is that the graphic style is going to be the biggest thing that many will instantly write it off for.
Everyone thought SWTOR would knock GW2 sales out of the water, didn't turn out that way though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
same shit as usual... stop dreaming with the promised game... it wont come... you already had your promised game... maybe it was wow, or tera, or i dont know, probably was the first or the second mmo you played...
You need something really different for enjoy, Wildstar looks the same.
Wildstar is reviving a LOT of features that the genre has been systematically killing off in the last decade; large-scale raiding, housing, true character interdependency (through classes AND paths). Those things alone are going to attract a lot of players who currently don't have much available to them.
They also have a huge focus on the social side of the game which IMO is the core missing component of all the flops of the last decade.
I'll reserve judgement until I actually get my hands on the game. For me personally though, even if it isn't the best MMO it could be, the simple fact that it is the ONLY game offering certain core features like housing at the moment is going to likely be enough to keep me playing (and my god it's one of the best housing systems I've seen).
I will play both Wildstar and TESO.
However while both are mmorpgs the games are entirely different. Hell Wildstar is very different from wow as well as there is player housing, paths, dynamic questing and tons of other stuff. Cant really compare that to wow just because it is a hotkey game.
Aside from that while I am really into Wildstar more than any other game. I feel like Wildstar is gonna be a lot like rift overall in the sales department anyway. If NCSoft wants to boost sales they will release the game as a buy to play title just like guild wars 2 and charge 60 bucks for the game with a good item mall. Economy has changed since mmos first began. It's not all that easy to get 14.99 a month after the people have to buy the game to begin with.
Wow has the exception because it has had 8 years to grow. To keep people coming back ever so often. It has proven to be a decent game. The average mmo gamer are casual players now days.
So while some of us might think it is the greatest game ever made. It is a new title. It is a mmorpg. It's not a super well known title.
ArchAge, is a ok game. The game is huge in the asian culture but world wide not really. The game is date already graphically. It doesn't have a lot to offer especially because it is designed with hardcore players at heart. Do I myself want to play it ? Of course I do, but again it's not all that big of a game.
There is actually a pretty sizeable movement against NCSoft and anything they publish. There are people who just will not take another chance on games that will get shut down if they don't fit the mold. It has been most noticeable with the City of Heroes (former) players but players of other games shut down after 1-2 years have the same mindset.
Obviously GW2 has done well but for a straight sub game, it will be interesting to see what the market will be on this. Maybe by the time the game comes out it will have subsided enough to not have any kind of impact but as we saw with SOE and SWG, some people will never forgive or forget.
You make a valid point here as I'm still a little bitter about them closing TR. If I decide to purchase this game I'll probably not invest too much time into it for that reason.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
It wasn't just graphics. Perma death in a PvP game turns a lot of people off.
Good points. NCsoft has axed way too many western games for it to be a simple case of cutting their losses. Either they had really bad judgement to start with, or their high level suits have totally unrealistic expectations (or both). As for me, I still fault them for axing Tabula Rasa (I also fault RG for splitting his focus). Many people are well past annoyed with them about how they handled City of Heros/Villians. Who knows what game they will axe next?
heh well that is my friend very underrated number for players, if even few years old tera have 1.2 million players.
basicly what vanilla wow creators have done here is to import world of warcraft in space and as blizzard never wanted to make world of starcraft here is wildstar. so no way this game is going to be let to dust.
A game that doesnt do good. Its a no brainer. I approve of their approach, MMO should die as imo going to maintenance mode and milking/nickle&diming is a far worse faith for an MMO.
Some would call it living dead.
Like SoE games?
On topic: this game is tough to judge. Following their facebook and fan site forums it's obvious that the community is going to be very similar to the WoW community. People are already begging for the game to be turned to easy mode, and the game hasn't even been released yet. It's going to draw a lot of attention from WoW players who did everything possible to ruin that game. The question will be whether or not the devs of Wildstar stick to their vision or cater to the casuals and skilless.
Like all MMO's, if the devs stick to their vision the game should turn out exciting. If not, it will end up being a hodge podge of crap or a casual friendly snooze fest devoid of all the things RPG fans enjoy in gaming. I'd love to see a PvE focused game that asks players to be social and good would be a breath of fresh air in the current MMO market.
When I first heard about this game months ago, I thought "meh, I'll pass." I've been playing MMO's since EQ1, and I am currently playing GW2. While I like the shiney realistic graphics of GW2, I do miss the cartoney look of WoW. I like the cartoony story book look. Wildstar reminds me of TITAN AE in some ways. Something about that art style makes the game feel more like a game to me. I don't need ultra realistic water, and landscapes that look photo-realistic. I can see that by looking out my window.
So... being bored with GW2, my wife and I went online to find our "new" game to follow. I don't know why but I decided to see what is going on with Wildstar. I watched every single video on their website. I really like their sense of humor, the art style, the fact that it's sci-fi with elements of fantasy. I like that there is raiding. I like that there are factions. I like that this game has so many open ended possibilities. I don't care that it looks like WoW in some respects. I enjoyed WoW for the 7 years I played it, but eventually it was time to move on. You know what else I like. I like that there are mounts, (ground and flying). I like that there is player housing, that the game's combat system is more free-form than WoW, but similar to Tera and GW2. They are also going to allow modding. I liked having mods in WoW.
I honestly believe that this is the game I have been looking for since I left WoW for SWTOR, TERA, and now GW2.
I can't wait to see more of what they have to show us.
true although gw1 had a pretty big following.. but again i'd be curious if same exact game was released by bioware in the mass effect universe not star wars how well do you think it would of sold and how many would still be playing today?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Tera has nothing even close to that many players - that's how many ACCOUNTS have ever been created, and I believe it was 1.4 million to be exact. My account is one of those 1.4 million and I played it for 1 day and never again.
Agree. WS will do ok I think, but it won't match something like TESO. The market penetration of that game on brand awareness alone is staggering.
This may play out well for WS though. Less expectations plus a less 'broad' market may let it thrive in the long run on it's own terms.
"That doesn't do good" Is my point. It tends to be entirely subjective when it comes to NCsoft and western games. Its to the point that any western studio that would have them for a publisher has to be naive/ignorant and/or desperate. None of those are a good sign for a studio or their potential players.
Mix that in with Nexon being one of their major investors these days, and it doesn't look good.
Eh? How it is subjective? They have their standard and if game falls below that it goes down the crapper. They dont drag it out and try to squeeze every penny out of their players while investing almost zero in a game.
You can disagree and have husks of MMOs that are a maintenance mode and suck money of few people that play them.
Have you ever done business analysis? The internal simulations/projections are based upon various assumptions. Those get weighted according to the persons experience/bias/agenda. That impacts the results. That is what I mean by subjective.
As for the rest, the emotional loading of your statement indicates your positional bias, just as mine does.