Originally posted by GreenHell Is it the acutal raiding part for you or or is it because that is where all the loot comes from?
you make a good point, but even if that were the case, it would have to only be random world boss encounters that guilds could take down every once in a while.
once you implement raid progression (which is what i assumed he meant) then that is an exclusive theme park feature and makes the game not a pure sandbox by nature, even if you didn't get gear upgrades from downing bosses.
people are going to have different opinions on what they believe makes a sandbox game, a sandbox.
but raid progression is one of those things that is absolutely a theme park trait, its not even arguable.
i am not saying it has to be a pure sandbox, just saying i don't think it will be based on the fact that it will have raiding.
i dont know if i'd agree to that, i mean in my opinion, sandbox is a game where you define how you play the game. just because there are raids in place and they drop gear does not mean its themepark automatically. game could still be sandbox with that, so long as raiding was required to get best gear, and the game had the other requirements for being a sandbox game, its still a sandbox game.
Or, rather than repeatedly trashing a game you apparently have no desire to play, you could put your energies into something more positive?
Or, try replying to the OP that is actually trashing the entire game...I am pointing out the FACT that the game is not TES in its base design.
You do know that some people, I know not all of us, but some people actually have the ability to like part of something and not another part without feeling the need to pretend that everything is roses nor feels the need to act like someone that should just bend over and take it...like a man...but instead speak with a consumers voice about the pros and cons.
I know...its CRAZY!
I am going to buy this game day 1. I have major concerns though and questions about if I will play this game longer than a month or two. I can forsee myself clearing all 3 factions within a month, and then I wonder what I'll do. Log on, try to craft some new stuff? Do a Cyrodill then log off? Maybe a dungeon if I think I can net an upgrade that I dont have from crafting currently?
I think if players keep defining a sandbox based on the lack of themepark features will never see their defintion of a sandbox game again. In the beginning the true sandbox games were devoid of themepark features because the themepark wasn't defined yet. Since then, there are features from themepark games that may always show up in other game sandbox or not. Some conveniences are too hard to deny and some don't want to go back. So going forward dismissing a game as not a sandbox because it has conventional questing or raiding I feel is a flawed point of view.
If I had to sum up my definition of the barebones to be considered a sandbox, would be two things.
1. Players are given the tools to change the world and make an impact on it.
2. Players have many choices how they choose to play the game and if they choose non-combat they can spend all their time with other activities of their choice.
While there are many many other things which could define a sandbox, the above two are a must have.
furthermore what is with the obsession of labeling a game themepark or sandbox anyway?
who cares if a game is sandbox? who cares if a game is themepark? if the game is shit, its shit. not gonna be amazingly awesome just because its a sandbox. not gonna be complete crap just because its a themepark.
furthermore what is with the obsession of labeling a game themepark or sandbox anyway?
who cares if a game is sandbox? who cares if a game is themepark? if the game is shit, its shit. not gonna be amazingly awesome just because its a sandbox. not gonna be complete crap just because its a themepark.
Good point!
I think it is because of the track record of themeparks and players getting bored too quickly. I have to agree if a themepark keeps my interest measured in years not months or days, who cares? I just don't think anyone has any faith anymore that developers can make a unique themepark and most feel they can't commit to them longterm. Until we see a new themepark with enough original features to stand out, peeps will claim sandboxes as the solution to longtime frustration of short term games.
Here we go again ... ueee ... ueee .. it is single player! ueee.... give me my sandboy, give me my theme park, give me ..... ueeeeeee ....
Do not like? Fine, just GO away and world will be better.
And how many are such folks.
I may dislike a lot things in some game, love others, ... but If game have some element I can not swallow down (i.e. first person view, targeting recticle on screen, ....) I WILL NOT BOTHER WITH THAT AND ARGUE WITH WHOLE WORLD. I will just LET GO. I might use something as bad example but so many can not live obviusly their lives if not constantly bashing something on all possible forums.
Many times are not leader to be replaced, but people.
as i said before and im sure i will say again, there is nothing in the term Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. that says you have to play in a group.
you know why games are adding more and more solo elements? because they are popular and sometimes people enjoy doing their own thing on their own time. and i think its about time some of you get that through your head. the days of group or quit are dead, unless you are playing some Indie title.
So OP you want a sandbox like game then you complain about TESO crafting/pvp giving items equal to those from dungeons ? Seems more like you want an old school raid grinder like wow was in vanilla,with the "raid or quit" mentality some developer had.And people wonder why it's a good thing that maybe TESO will lack raids,it's because most raiders always have to ask for the best items in game,they are not happy when players can get those from other activities than raids. There are a lot of players interested in story or lore ,even in elder scrolls games,one of my favorite activities in skyrim is to read the books I find around game and take the ones I like to put them in my house.From what Sovrath said about pax demo ,I hope to be able to continue this in TESO as soon they decide to add housing. Not a big fan of story being solo only,I would like the possibility to experience story instances with friends but it is not a deal breaker to me and it's better than story instances being done in a random party or raid with people who don't let you enjoy the lore because they want the shiny loot faster.
So OP you want a sandbox like game then you complain about TESO crafting/pvp giving items equal to those from dungeons ? Seems more like you want an old school raid grinder like wow was in vanilla,with the "raid or quit" mentality some developer had.And people wonder why it's a good thing that maybe TESO will lack raids,it's because most raiders always have to ask for the best items in game,they are not happy when players can get those from other activities than raids. There are a lot of players interested in story or lore ,even in elder scrolls games,one of my favorite activities in skyrim is to read the books I find around game and take the ones I like to put them in my house.From what Sovrath said about pax demo ,I hope to be able to continue this in TESO as soon they decide to add housing. Not a big fan of story being solo only,I would like the possibility to experience story instances with friends but it is not a deal breaker to me and it's better than story instances being done in a random party or raid with people who don't let you enjoy the lore because they want the shiny loot faster.
I want it to be fair.
I suggested all 3 methods of end-game offering unique but not necessarily better gear -- Maybe crafting gives me an item I'd want for my build, maybe clearing the third faction gives me an item I'd want, and maybe raiding gives me an item I want. I dont see a difference between forcing people to craft for the best gear and forcing people to do other methods for the best gear.
My main concern as I've said 1000x is longevity. I probably WILL play 3-5 hours a day for awhile right when the game comes out. I will complete all 3 factions before the majority I'm sure. I dont full agree with how much phasing is going in on the Elder Scrolls Online, but I guess I have to deal with it. SWTOR's main problem is it felt like you were playing alone. The world felt dead because it was phased off during the main story and the worlds were life-less. is the solution I shouldnt play a game I'm enjoying a lot?
And then I ask myself -- After a couple months, is a casual going to keep paying $15 when they clear the content/adventure aspect for them too?
Is a hardcore player going to keep paying $15 when here is no incentive to raid? Yes, raids/big world fights are fun for the first few times. But after the 40th time with no chance of reward, I dont forsee a lot of people keep doing it.
From everything I'm seeing, TES is Far from a sandbox, I don't know how anyone could mistake it for one. It's your typical themepark with some pvp thrown in. Hyping the pvp area to veteran DAOC players. Phasing and instancing sucks.
Crafting giving decent items does not force anyone to craft since you can buy it from auction house unless they copy wow model of making some crafting items bop which would be a bad idea.Also lot of people dislike pvp or dungeons ,making them do parts of the game they dislike just to be competitive is not a good idea in my opinion ,it's much better if the game allows you to get items you need while doing the activities you enjoy. No idea what type of game will TESO be - btp,ftp or p2p - but if it has subscription the longevity problem could be solved by developers doing what should be expected from a subscription mmo, add more adventure content every 2-3 months,expanding the world and the dungeons etc ,even pvp could benefit from changes in the terms of the conflict ,new siege weapons .Turbine managed to do that in the first year after the launch of LOTRO ,too bad things have changed since then.
as i said before and im sure i will say again, there is nothing in the term Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. that says you have to play in a group.
Nope, to me Massive Multiplayer Online .... mean only a lot of players online at same time, radiing, crafting, ... doing whatever .... does not matter. Does not mean you have to group. Otherwise following your logic there should be maybe one massive raid with i.e. 100.000 players at same time. Silly, no? Because I do not see 25 or not even 40 raid as MASSIVE.
Originally posted by GreenHell Is it the acutal raiding part for you or or is it because that is where all the loot comes from?
you make a good point, but even if that were the case, it would have to only be random world boss encounters that guilds could take down every once in a while.
once you implement raid progression (which is what i assumed he meant) then that is an exclusive theme park feature and makes the game not a pure sandbox by nature, even if you didn't get gear upgrades from downing bosses.
people are going to have different opinions on what they believe makes a sandbox game, a sandbox.
but raid progression is one of those things that is absolutely a theme park trait, its not even arguable.
i am not saying it has to be a pure sandbox, just saying i don't think it will be based on the fact that it will have raiding.
i dont know if i'd agree to that, i mean in my opinion, sandbox is a game where you define how you play the game. just because there are raids in place and they drop gear does not mean its themepark automatically. game could still be sandbox with that, so long as raiding was required to get best gear, and the game had the other requirements for being a sandbox game, its still a sandbox game.
Personally I kind of agree with baphamet to an extent. Progression raiding like what you see in wow is very much a themepark trait. That is the ride you are on until the next expansion comes out and then you get on another ride and start it all over again.
Raiding by itself isn't a bad thing. Large scale world bosses or even instanced raiding doesn't bother me. It's the fact that progression raiding is the only thing to do to progress your character and by progression I mean getting better gear. That is really all that WoW is about. I'm not saying thats bad but it is very much a themepark.
I would like to see a game go back to the system SWG had before all of the bad. Item decay where repairing isn't always the best option. I used to blow through armor so fast that I had my armor guy make me crates of it. Gear just wasn't as important as it is in todays games. With that mechanic in place it really doesn't matter what kind of raids you have the items you get will all pretty much be temporary. They will break and need to replaced so often that the gear grind for means of progression is kind of taken out of the equation.
Comments
i dont know if i'd agree to that, i mean in my opinion, sandbox is a game where you define how you play the game. just because there are raids in place and they drop gear does not mean its themepark automatically. game could still be sandbox with that, so long as raiding was required to get best gear, and the game had the other requirements for being a sandbox game, its still a sandbox game.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
I am going to buy this game day 1. I have major concerns though and questions about if I will play this game longer than a month or two. I can forsee myself clearing all 3 factions within a month, and then I wonder what I'll do. Log on, try to craft some new stuff? Do a Cyrodill then log off? Maybe a dungeon if I think I can net an upgrade that I dont have from crafting currently?
I think if players keep defining a sandbox based on the lack of themepark features will never see their defintion of a sandbox game again. In the beginning the true sandbox games were devoid of themepark features because the themepark wasn't defined yet. Since then, there are features from themepark games that may always show up in other game sandbox or not. Some conveniences are too hard to deny and some don't want to go back. So going forward dismissing a game as not a sandbox because it has conventional questing or raiding I feel is a flawed point of view.
If I had to sum up my definition of the barebones to be considered a sandbox, would be two things.
1. Players are given the tools to change the world and make an impact on it.
2. Players have many choices how they choose to play the game and if they choose non-combat they can spend all their time with other activities of their choice.
While there are many many other things which could define a sandbox, the above two are a must have.
furthermore what is with the obsession of labeling a game themepark or sandbox anyway?
who cares if a game is sandbox? who cares if a game is themepark? if the game is shit, its shit. not gonna be amazingly awesome just because its a sandbox. not gonna be complete crap just because its a themepark.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Good point!
I think it is because of the track record of themeparks and players getting bored too quickly. I have to agree if a themepark keeps my interest measured in years not months or days, who cares? I just don't think anyone has any faith anymore that developers can make a unique themepark and most feel they can't commit to them longterm. Until we see a new themepark with enough original features to stand out, peeps will claim sandboxes as the solution to longtime frustration of short term games.
Here we go again ... ueee ... ueee .. it is single player! ueee.... give me my sandboy, give me my theme park, give me ..... ueeeeeee ....
Do not like? Fine, just GO away and world will be better.
And how many are such folks.
I may dislike a lot things in some game, love others, ... but If game have some element I can not swallow down (i.e. first person view, targeting recticle on screen, ....) I WILL NOT BOTHER WITH THAT AND ARGUE WITH WHOLE WORLD. I will just LET GO. I might use something as bad example but so many can not live obviusly their lives if not constantly bashing something on all possible forums.
Many times are not leader to be replaced, but people.
as i said before and im sure i will say again, there is nothing in the term Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. that says you have to play in a group.
you know why games are adding more and more solo elements? because they are popular and sometimes people enjoy doing their own thing on their own time. and i think its about time some of you get that through your head. the days of group or quit are dead, unless you are playing some Indie title.
So OP you want a sandbox like game then you complain about TESO crafting/pvp giving items equal to those from dungeons ? Seems more like you want an old school raid grinder like wow was in vanilla,with the "raid or quit" mentality some developer had.And people wonder why it's a good thing that maybe TESO will lack raids,it's because most raiders always have to ask for the best items in game,they are not happy when players can get those from other activities than raids.
There are a lot of players interested in story or lore ,even in elder scrolls games,one of my favorite activities in skyrim is to read the books I find around game and take the ones I like to put them in my house.From what Sovrath said about pax demo ,I hope to be able to continue this in TESO as soon they decide to add housing.
Not a big fan of story being solo only,I would like the possibility to experience story instances with friends but it is not a deal breaker to me and it's better than story instances being done in a random party or raid with people who don't let you enjoy the lore because they want the shiny loot faster.
I want it to be fair.
I suggested all 3 methods of end-game offering unique but not necessarily better gear -- Maybe crafting gives me an item I'd want for my build, maybe clearing the third faction gives me an item I'd want, and maybe raiding gives me an item I want. I dont see a difference between forcing people to craft for the best gear and forcing people to do other methods for the best gear.
My main concern as I've said 1000x is longevity. I probably WILL play 3-5 hours a day for awhile right when the game comes out. I will complete all 3 factions before the majority I'm sure. I dont full agree with how much phasing is going in on the Elder Scrolls Online, but I guess I have to deal with it. SWTOR's main problem is it felt like you were playing alone. The world felt dead because it was phased off during the main story and the worlds were life-less. is the solution I shouldnt play a game I'm enjoying a lot?
And then I ask myself -- After a couple months, is a casual going to keep paying $15 when they clear the content/adventure aspect for them too?
Is a hardcore player going to keep paying $15 when here is no incentive to raid? Yes, raids/big world fights are fun for the first few times. But after the 40th time with no chance of reward, I dont forsee a lot of people keep doing it.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Crafting giving decent items does not force anyone to craft since you can buy it from auction house unless they copy wow model of making some crafting items bop which would be a bad idea.Also lot of people dislike pvp or dungeons ,making them do parts of the game they dislike just to be competitive is not a good idea in my opinion ,it's much better if the game allows you to get items you need while doing the activities you enjoy.
No idea what type of game will TESO be - btp,ftp or p2p - but if it has subscription the longevity problem could be solved by developers doing what should be expected from a subscription mmo, add more adventure content every 2-3 months,expanding the world and the dungeons etc ,even pvp could benefit from changes in the terms of the conflict ,new siege weapons .Turbine managed to do that in the first year after the launch of LOTRO ,too bad things have changed since then.
Nope, to me Massive Multiplayer Online .... mean only a lot of players online at same time, radiing, crafting, ... doing whatever .... does not matter. Does not mean you have to group. Otherwise following your logic there should be maybe one massive raid with i.e. 100.000 players at same time. Silly, no? Because I do not see 25 or not even 40 raid as MASSIVE.
Personally I kind of agree with baphamet to an extent. Progression raiding like what you see in wow is very much a themepark trait. That is the ride you are on until the next expansion comes out and then you get on another ride and start it all over again.
Raiding by itself isn't a bad thing. Large scale world bosses or even instanced raiding doesn't bother me. It's the fact that progression raiding is the only thing to do to progress your character and by progression I mean getting better gear. That is really all that WoW is about. I'm not saying thats bad but it is very much a themepark.
I would like to see a game go back to the system SWG had before all of the bad. Item decay where repairing isn't always the best option. I used to blow through armor so fast that I had my armor guy make me crates of it. Gear just wasn't as important as it is in todays games. With that mechanic in place it really doesn't matter what kind of raids you have the items you get will all pretty much be temporary. They will break and need to replaced so often that the gear grind for means of progression is kind of taken out of the equation.