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There are no raids... can you live with that?
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Sure and I completely agree. 100% on board. But it doesn't have to be like other games with treadmills.
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Since people are talking about WoW, I would not say that the majority of players raid. That is a complete fallacy. I guess on some servers like Illidan or Stormrage a lot of people raid but on my old server, Moon Guard, it was estimated that only about 4% of people were seeing raid content, IF that. It was a RP server, true, but most people didn't even RP either. It was also the second most populated sever after Illidan. Sorry to inform you, but raids are not the driving force behind WoW's popularity, but its casual pve content. Achievements, dungeons, LFR, mount collecting, pet collecting, scenarios, etc. I am not saying you are willfully ignorant, but you are still wrong. I am willing to bet you play/played on a very heavily raid centric server.
Personally I've raided in WoW since Vanilla up to Mists of Pandaria (worst expansion EVER), when I quit the game. ESO doesn't have to have raid content to get me to play, as long as it has other PvE content to enjoy. If it is PvP centric you can forget it. That's one of the things that made me quit playing GW2. I am not against having PvP content, but I do not play heavy PvP games like I used to. I am 32 and simply do not have the twitch reflexes that I used to have. I will still enjoy PvP content on a casual basis, though.
I DO agree with other posters though, that raids should NOT have drastically better gear than other activites if they were in the game. Early Cata, for example, dungeons were extremely difficult to learn and master. So were raids, but they were about equally difficult compared to the dungeons. Yet the dungeons granted really crappy blue gear while the raid gear was unequivically better. Drastically better. I didn't see how this was fair, and I was a raider.
A lot (but not ALL) of raiders are extremely elitist and like to think they are special snowflakes. So many of them think that ALL purple gear is raid gear that should be gated behind raids only. "Why do you need raid gear if you don't raid?" was extremely common among the mouth-breathing elitists. Hated it.
just my two cents
you're 32 not 64 get a grip man. gw2 is more pve focused than pvp, the reason i left gw2 was because the wvw was terrible.
I did too, but I started playing again this week and things have really gotten better in WvW. Have to say I am looking forward to ESO AvA more as I still dont like this 2 week reset thing and not getting to know the guilds your fighting sucks.
The market also likes One Direction, Hannah Montana, and Beiber.
Sales != quality.
People start losing their twitch reflexes in their late 20s, early 30s. It's just not the same as when I was a teen or in my early 20s. I know I'm not 64. where it will be a lot worse :P
I played GW2 for a couple of weeks when it released and it was definitely more PvP centric than otherwise. The major thing to do back then when hitting 80 was WvWvW. That might've changed since I last played, but the bad impression was already there.
YES!!!!! thank God.
I feel instanced raiding is the bane of this genre.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
So...in summary, endgame to you is raiding. If that's how you feel, just say it instead of implying you're open to different ideas by saying "like raiding" when what you really mean is raiding period.
WOW is by far the best at that...so why even leave WOW and consider something else? Or why try to reshape this endgame to be yet another lesser WOW?
This game is designed with progresion RvR not raids for its endgame. They will have heroic dungeons and raid-sized open world events as well, but that's not where their development effort is focused.
Personally, I'd much rather RvR than raid. This is why I'm interested in a game that is designed this way. Is that a niche for a small number of people? We'll see, but I doubt it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You could just as easily say they are alienating the SCIFI market as well.
They have to pick what their game is about.
There are lots of games that cater to that market already, they are shooting for something else it seems.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Exactly. I find it hillarious that on the one hand posters around here hate nothing more than another WOW clone but when they explain what they want in an MMO, it's WOW in a clown suit.
Their illogic goes like this: WOW has meganumbers of subs. Meganumbers = the only measure of success. F2P = failure. This game needs to be like WOW or go F2P in 2 months.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's not so black and white. Genres have established features - shooters have arenas, CTF, etc. Roleplaying games have skills/classes to level, dungeons, raids, and crafting. When those accepted features are not there, yes, the game is lacking. I personally don't want a WoW clone, but I expect the same amount of detail and polish that WoW delivered. I expect a combat system that is fun - not derivative. It doesn't have to be like WoW, nor GW2, but it has to be fun and it has to have feeling.
Furthermore, I don't expect - and the publishers shouldn't - WoW numbers in every MMO. It's not going to happen. The least these developers can do for themselves is lower the barriers and let players buy/try their game. F2P is often a sign of failure, especially when a sub-par game was gated by subscriptions.
The MMO market has two huge problems
1. The failure of developers to come up with anything original or polished
2. The failure of publishers to come up with a price model that allows entry into their game
MMO culture won't improve until those two issues are resolved before companies waste millions of dollars on a game no one wants.
That being said, I want ESO to succeed. I love the series. GW2 doesn't have traditional raids and is a success, but it offers substitute content and had to explain those things to players. Hopefully ESO can succeed at that too, and have a price model that makes sense.
How do you think the MMO genre established the features you choose to include in your list? Were they always established features? And why is RvR not in your list of established features?
Your post is a good example of exactly what I was saying. No you don't want an exact replica of WOW, just the "established features" from it.
Thanks for illustrating my point.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
QFT.
I'm LONG past tired of dealing with the GO! GO! GO! crowd. Take a few moments to read the quest text, so you have a sense of what needs to be done, and some people go into hysterics. Hell, I've even seen some of those nut cases want to kick the tank, because they didn't pull everything in LOS at once. With a 45 minute wait just to get here, are you out of your mind?? GO! GO! GO!...<rolls eyes>.
Don't even get me started on the dps meter/Min/Max Gscore fanatics, who turn any given game into a second job...<face palm>
Raiding is just another tactic used to extend the time people will stick around a game. It gives a sense of progression (which is good, its one of my focus points as well). But its been badly abused by people who by this point should have the experience/knowledge to know better. Its the natural result of the design decision to have hard (rather than soft) level caps.
But thats an entirely different can of worms.
Really? Bernard Hopkins just won a world boxing title at 48. I think your reflexes will be ok for gaming for sometime yet.
'2. The failure of publishers to come up with a price model that allows entry into their game'
TO be fair MMORPGs are pretty much the only past time I know of that hasn't, over a decade, increased in price. It was the same price when I started playing EQ back in the day (exchange charges for US / EU based services not withstanding).
Granted the actual game has increased ~40% in that time, but the recurring charges have not. It is cheaper than almost any other form of entertainment for the time invested.
The main holdup is the same as it always has been and that is the 'why should I pay for the game then again to play it?'.
@nerovipus32. I'm 32. My reaction time has doubled from when I was 18. DOUBLED! Reaction times take a pretty big hit as you age and you don't even notice it happening, all part of aging, the gift that keeps giving.
Exactly. Don't listen to what people *say* watch what they *do*. WoW for all its faults (which are legion at this point) is a good game all the way up to level cap (currently 90). It has years worth of content, and when Ghostcrawler isn't up to his usual antics, at least some of the classes are entertaining to play.
WoW has made Blizzard billions upon billions of dollars, over years and years. Anyone who respects the concept of a free market (of which there is damn little in reality) has to respect that aspect of Blizzards operation.
That having been said, WAY too many business suits/investors have been dazzled by those mountains of money. At one point, all it took for them to throw truck loads of money at you, was to whisper the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft"... ^^
Thankfully, after many failed games, the edge is starting to wear off of that. I'm hoping we do not see a crash like we did in 84, but given various trends thats possible.
Bottom line, there are many, many different ways of making an entertaining game, but it requires Dev's who have the experience/knowledge/wisdom/resources and time to do it right.
No raids in the traditional sense of large monster getting ankles stabbed.
Raids will exist in the context of multiple group content.
Really though who knows what we will get at the moment, the devs are being tight lipped about exactly what end game PvE stuff will be.
Jona ^_^
Raids arent needed for it to be fun .
In Rift my favourite part of the game was the 5 man dungons . In EQ I used to enjoy the small groups as well .
In raids it feels impersonal and I feel like Im not really needed at all , and even worse there is barely any chance of reward when 1 or 2 items drop and 40 people are in raid .
I'm not saying it has to have the same skin. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. WoW established that interface should be easily understood, the class systems should be clean and effectual. It established grouping features. I'm not saying every MMO should have the same toolbar. I'm say it should have an interface that is intuitive and let's players play the game, rather than shuffle hotbars. I'm say the class system should have complexity through its simplicity, rather than a clusterf--k like EQ2. That's not to say every class system should be a tree or whatever have you. It should just make sense and be flexible. Guild Wars 2 has a good class system. It makes sense, it's clean, and it's fun to play with. That's my point.
Standard features are developed based on what sells. RvR should by all right be a standard feature. Raids should be a standard. The underlying standard is giving players a means to play with each other, rather than run through zones and then walk away. So, what I want in a game is the following:
1. When I activate a skill, it activates then and there. LoTRO got this wrong big time.
2. A class system that allows for multiple play styles per character. Preferably, the ability to save said builds.
3. A clean interface that doesn't impede gameplay and doesn't require a wiki to understand. EQ2 got this wrong big time.
4. Email system
5. Buddy lists, ignore lists
6. Guild systems
7. Small and large group content
8. PVP - tournament styles and RvR
9. Crafting
10. Services - character renames, race changes, server moves, etc
11. Character progression
12. Large zones, preferably seamless
13. Smart class names - Asian games get this wrong all the time. (Flyff...)
14. No Gender locked classes
Do those make a game a WoW clone? No!
A WoW Clone is when the game cops the interface and reskins it. A WoW Clone is a game with the same class tree and same raid style. I'm open to ESO not having raids, but they have to replace it with some form of large group content. That's my point. I'm not even a raider, but I know many people want that feature in a game. And to your point, RvR is a standard that's missed all too often.
No there aren't. All the new. Games have horrible late game content because of people like you that say you want that then leave the game after 4 months giving everyone else nothing to do.
Jona ^_^