I think the article misses one of the key elements of socializing in an MMO. It isn't about groups. It's about being deep in the midst of a hostile environment where you can't survive on your own, you can't escape, you've spent time and effort into getting to and dying costs you something. With small instanced dugeons, teleports and a total lack of death penalty, modern games don't capture that level of necessity. No "next gen" MMO incorporates this level of critical teamwork, especially not GW2.
I could talk more about this but it's pointless. Half of you won't read my post and the other half will have no idea what I'm talking about anyway.
am not gona say the word solo or some people like to play alone for some time but............imagen your self wakening up at 5 am you cant sleep anymore and wanted to play your (red lines) and bam no one is playing in your area how would that realy feel
or in other words that is why harder areas and dungones and made for
Aye ^.
There are already games like this. One of them is FFXI (and man can that game be a pain in the arse to find groups for).
For me, being social is more than just put a bunch of people together. It is actually talking and working together for a common goal. In GW 2 and Rift I did not feel many social elements; Just being put together with a bunch of people, forming a zerg. Minimal communication and actual teamwork.
When I played Asheron's Call, way back, now that was a social experience. There were certain quests were you needed a party to work together to complete. Dungeons, which spawned so fast, that you needed a team clearing it out. And finally, the biggest social element, was on the PvP server where you had to work together with a team to survive in such a harsch atmosphere. That was indeed a social experience. Modern MMOs are just mindless Zerging and forming guilds and cooperating etc is just an optional thing that some people do but you really dont need to.
I think the article misses one of the key elements of socializing in an MMO. It isn't about groups. It's about being deep in the midst of a hostile environment where you can't survive on your own, you can't escape, you've spent time and effort into getting to and dying costs you something. With small instanced dugeons, teleports and a total lack of death penalty, modern games don't capture that level of necessity. No "next gen" MMO incorporates this level of critical teamwork, especially not GW2.
I could talk more about this but it's pointless. Half of you won't read my post and the other half will have no idea what I'm talking about anyway.
am not gona say the word solo or some people like to play alone for some time but............imagen your self wakening up at 5 am you cant sleep anymore and wanted to play your (red lines) and bam no one is playing in your area how would that realy feel
or in other words that is why harder areas and dungones and made for
Aye ^.
There are already games like this. One of them is FFXI (and man can that game be a pain in the arse to find groups for).
That is what am saying and when it come to groups people gets angry and start with bad words and stuff
Originally posted by rafalex007 Originally posted by zonzai I think the article misses one of the key elements of socializing in an MMO. It isn't about groups. It's about being deep in the midst of a hostile environment where you can't survive on your own, you can't escape, you've spent time and effort into getting to and dying costs you something. With small instanced dugeons, teleports and a total lack of death penalty, modern games don't capture that level of necessity. No "next gen" MMO incorporates this level of critical teamwork, especially not GW2. I could talk more about this but it's pointless. Half of you won't read my post and the other half will have no idea what I'm talking about anyway.
am not gona say the word solo or some people like to play alone for some time but............imagen your self wakening up at 5 am you cant sleep anymore and wanted to play your (red lines) and bam no one is playing in your area how would that realy feel
or in other words that is why harder areas and dungones and made for
wasnt really a problem in EQ. Even in wow, with dungeons which is what you talk about, you had this feeling, though not to the extent to which the person you quoted implies it was still there. Ass deep in UBRS without raid gear and you need someone to help finish the raid. The respawn timers are rapidly approaching and the guy who you invited doesn't get instantly teleported to your location. Some people found this boring .. I found it exhilarating and there was a sense of accomplishment that you just dont get when you press a LFD button get zapped into an instance, faceroll down all of the mobs 10-20 at a time, and collect epics.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Don't force people to group to do content, just put the best content (in terms of rewards) in the middle of FFA full loss/partial drop PVP areas and you'll see groups of people working together to survive in no time :P.
-waits for gasps from devout carebears-
Adversity breeds community, the petulant manchildren/womenchildren with a stick up their behinds and a bad attitude will have to run gauntlets alone whereas more decent folk will band together and work through the "griefer" swarms.
I think a big part of the problem is that (nowadays) people seem to expect games to be social for them. They don't work like that. The best a game can do is to provide avenues to be social for those who want to be, while avoiding mechanics that prevent players from working together (like the standard questing model).
In GW2, you are free to try and lone wolf it all, or you can take the initiative to actually talk to people and socialize. Generally I do the later, unless I'm either in a hurry or not in the mood to be social. That way my contacts list is always growing, I meet some very fun people in game on a regular basis, and if I want to do any number of the group content available in the game, I don't always have to rely on random PUGs to do it.
This problem isn't just in games, but I think too many people have forgotten how communities actually work. Having a social game is a biproduct of the players actively trying to be social, and forming bonds with other people they enjoyed playing with. People knew this in earlier MMOs, because we honestly didn't have a choice. There were very few MMOs people were playing, and if you screwed up in one, people knew it. Now that a lot of that responsibility is gone from newer MMOs, a lot of people aren't used to taking the initiative.
I think a big part of the problem is that (nowadays) people seem to expect games to be social for them. They don't work like that. The best a game can do is to provide avenues to be social for those who want to be, while avoiding mechanics that prevent players from working together (like the standard questing model).
In GW2, you are free to try and lone wolf it all, or you can take the initiative to actually talk to people and socialize. Generally I do the later, unless I'm either in a hurry or not in the mood to be social. That way my contacts list is always growing, I meet some very fun people in game on a regular basis, and if I want to do any number of the group content available in the game, I don't always have to rely on random PUGs to do it.
This problem isn't just in games, but I think too many people have forgotten how communities actually work. Having a social game is a biproduct of the players actively trying to be social, and forming bonds with other people they enjoyed playing with. People knew this in earlier MMOs, because we honestly didn't have a choice. There were very few MMOs people were playing, and if you screwed up in one, people knew it. Now that a lot of that responsibility is gone from newer MMOs, a lot of people aren't used to taking the initiative.
you want people to socialize in a MMo are you crazy ???? go delete your post before someone else sees it go now.
I think a big part of the problem is that (nowadays) people seem to expect games to be social for them. They don't work like that. The best a game can do is to provide avenues to be social for those who want to be, while avoiding mechanics that prevent players from working together (like the standard questing model).
In GW2, you are free to try and lone wolf it all, or you can take the initiative to actually talk to people and socialize. Generally I do the later, unless I'm either in a hurry or not in the mood to be social. That way my contacts list is always growing, I meet some very fun people in game on a regular basis, and if I want to do any number of the group content available in the game, I don't always have to rely on random PUGs to do it.
This problem isn't just in games, but I think too many people have forgotten how communities actually work. Having a social game is a biproduct of the players actively trying to be social, and forming bonds with other people they enjoyed playing with. People knew this in earlier MMOs, because we honestly didn't have a choice. There were very few MMOs people were playing, and if you screwed up in one, people knew it. Now that a lot of that responsibility is gone from newer MMOs, a lot of people aren't used to taking the initiative.
you want people to socialize in a MMo are you crazy ???? go delete your post before someone else sees it go now.
am not gona say the word solo or some people like to play alone for some time but............imagen your self wakening up at 5 am you cant sleep anymore and wanted to play your (red lines) and bam no one is playing in your area how would that realy feel
or in other words that is why harder areas and dungones and made for
Is that the best example you can come up with? So what? Don't expect to do be able to go do a raid at 5AM when nobody is on. That's not a reasonable expectation.
For me, being social is more than just put a bunch of people together. It is actually talking and working together for a common goal. In GW 2 and Rift I did not feel many social elements; Just being put together with a bunch of people, forming a zerg. Minimal communication and actual teamwork.
When I played Asheron's Call, way back, now that was a social experience. There were certain quests were you needed a party to work together to complete. Dungeons, which spawned so fast, that you needed a team clearing it out. And finally, the biggest social element, was on the PvP server where you had to work together with a team to survive in such a harsch atmosphere. That was indeed a social experience. Modern MMOs are just mindless Zerging and forming guilds and cooperating etc is just an optional thing that some people do but you really dont need to.
Is it the games that have change, or is it just your view? Asheron's Call was my first mmo. I remember pushing deep into a Lugian Citadel and finally making it to the uppermost room. There was only 4-5 of us up there, and while we were in a fellowship for xp bonus, we didn't really talk to much outside of in between spawns.
Fast forward to GW2. I am running around completing heart events, and grouping up with others in the immediate area to tackle events and even do some puzzle dungeons together. We don't really talk much outside of saying thanks, or some light chit chat when one of us figures out the solution to the puzzle.
Both experiences feel very much the same for me. In many ways, how the games are played, GW2 and AC are pretty similar.
Now, I will completely disagree with your statements on guilds. Guilds can make or break a gaming experience for many people. Unless I am in a guild with similar minded individuals, I don't find mmos enjoyable. Guilds can enable ease of finding groups for grouping content. Produce a better grouping experience since you're typically grouping with the same people on a regular basis, which produces better teamwork. Additionally, the social aspect of gaming is very much present in good guilds.
Honestly, I wouldn't say games are any more or any less social than they used to be. The community is far more negative and filled with vitriolic rhetoric. Often times you'll see questions answered with sarcasm and disdain. Then the community wonders why these games are "less social". Who would seriously want to talk to people when they act like raging assholes much of the time? Good guilds also become more xenophobic because of how poor the community in general has become. Social experiences that used to happen naturally, don't happen now, because people don't want to be trolled.
This problem isn't just in games, but I think too many people have forgotten how communities actually work. Having a social game is a biproduct of the players actively trying to be social, and forming bonds with other people they enjoyed playing with. People knew this in earlier MMOs, because we honestly didn't have a choice. There were very few MMOs people were playing, and if you screwed up in one, people knew it. Now that a lot of that responsibility is gone from newer MMOs, a lot of people aren't used to taking the initiative.
Great post. Really, this part drives it home for me. /win thread as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why people think that their MMOs should be solo-friendly. Certainly some content should be but if you really want to be able to solo an entire game, go play an RPG not an MMORPG.
am not gona say the word solo or some people like to play alone for some time but............imagen your self wakening up at 5 am you cant sleep anymore and wanted to play your (red lines) and bam no one is playing in your area how would that realy feel
or in other words that is why harder areas and dungones and made for
Is that the best example you can come up with? So what? Don't expect to do be able to go do a raid at 5AM when nobody is on. That's not a reasonable expectation.
He's not talking about raids man. He's talking about normal content.
Check out how games like FFXI, EQ, etc. work and you'll see what he's talking about. Aside from maybe crafting, there was literally nothing you could do in those games without a group. THAT is forced grouping.
Originally posted by Eir_S Great post. I agree that one of the big bonuses of new systems is how they allow for newer players to join the fun, and isn't that what it's about? Too many people act like MMOs are their personal property or the plaything of elitist jerks who only care who yells the loudest on Vent. The fact that there is no mob-tagging does not cancel out the ability to group up, just the need to. I've been in plenty of world map groups in GW2 just because it's fun to have a goal and meet that goal, but whenI felt like playing alone, I could do it just as fluidly and without sacrificing xp or fun.
I agree with your post and i agree wit hthe premise of the topic,but i am left in total awe as to why the notion that either GW2 or Rift offer anything to imroving the social apsect?if anything GW2 does nothign and Rift does the exact opposite.
The MOST social desined game was FFXI [of old],that is the game you can compare changes or differences.When you create a game such as FFXI,you pretty much FORCE everyone to be social,is that really a bad thing,since we are playing a MMO right?
Instances does NOT equal social
auto grouping does NOT equal social
solo linear content does NOT equal social
So i really question the games mentioned.Is this just another pat on the back of Trion a major sponsor here,possibly,i don't really know,but then GW2?IDk maybe a fave game of a few of the staff members,so trying to pat that game on the back?
The definition of social tends to gear towards organized group of people,auto grouping is NOT organized.Also you must be enjoying the company of others,how exactly are we enjoying each others company,if we randomly pop into a large group,where you don't either know anyone nor do you even talk to them?
FFXi was the game that forced that,it doesn't mean EVERY single group will be social,but it plays into that effect a heck of a lot more than any Rift or GW2 game does.
I also question the mention of auto loot,how does that effect the SOCIAL aspect in any form or fashion?That is simply a mechanic that is left for argument in a different topic.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This problem isn't just in games, but I think too many people have forgotten how communities actually work. Having a social game is a biproduct of the players actively trying to be social, and forming bonds with other people they enjoyed playing with. People knew this in earlier MMOs, because we honestly didn't have a choice. There were very few MMOs people were playing, and if you screwed up in one, people knew it. Now that a lot of that responsibility is gone from newer MMOs, a lot of people aren't used to taking the initiative.
Great post. Really, this part drives it home for me. /win thread as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why people think that their MMOs should be solo-friendly. Certainly some content should be but if you really want to be able to solo an entire game, go play an RPG not an MMORPG.
Thanks. I don't necessarily think games shouldn't be solo friendly, but I think they should (and need) to have both kinds of content. It's about not gating play from players. Again, I'd point towards FFXI.
While I really enjoyed FFXI, there were definitely times when it got extremely frustrating. I'm talking about having to wait hours for the right people to log on, just so I could play the game. I enjoyed the challenge of it, but I don't think the long wait times on groups really made the game any less or more social. In a lot of ways it did the opposite. People would go afk for long periods of time, because not enough of the right people were online to get anything done.
People need to remember that being social starts with them, not the game.
I do find it odd that one guy's reaction to your 'help' changed your outlook so profoundly. I mean... really? You are, you say, one of the world's great helpers, and one guy changes that by taking it badly? Seems extreme.
"one of the world's great helpers" - No, I'm pretty sure there are much greater helpers than me
And it only changed how much precaution I made in LotRO before I jump in to help after that incident. It's not extreme, I guess. There's a first in everything, for me that was the first time I heard about this non-group punishment mechanic in the game. Since I mostly play healer / support, it's only natural I don't like to see people just drop and of course I ask before - if there's time. Maybe you skipped the "only seconds from defeat" part. It'd have been futile to ask anyways since he tried to run from them, so no time to him for type an answer either...
I know it's hard to believe that someone knows the game he's playing, but trust me, if you see a near-death champ trying to run away from multiple ranged angmarims, then yes, he will drop very soon...
And for the forced grouping on your previous post: I never said groups are unnecessary or bad and solo play is superior. Group activity is the best part in any rpg, not only mmorpg's. I only say forced grouping is bad.
And I mean by "forced" exactly what WellzyC wrote before, not an option to group up for easier completion or better loot or a hard dungeon. If we stay at LotRO as an example, there you got literally stucked in the Book quest line if you couldn't find a group. It didn't matter the reason, your timezone, or your kin was occupied elsewhere, or nobody signed for a pug - until you couldn't find a group, you were stucked there. And that's a mechanism I'm happy when gets removed from every game. Grouping should be a better option which players choose happily, and not something that is forced onto them hoping that way maybe they will start to chat.
find it funny people bring up FFXI so much as the "pinnacle" of social MMOs because of forced grouping.. i played that one for a decent amount of time and half the time my group consisted of all individuals who spoke no english at all and had to rely on the ingame translater to talk which lead to some very amusing and hillarious conversations but a lot of the time not a whole lot was said especially since many played on console so people would use the pre-made phrases.. overall i don't see forced grouping as making a more social game just a more frustrating one..
in every MMO i have played generally as long as everyone knew the mechanics of the encounter no real talking was needed to complete anything(i don't raid much so referring to open world and 5 man stuff)
but making the economy player ran will lead to more social interactions.. for me id say SWG was the most social MMO i have played
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This problem isn't just in games, but I think too many people have forgotten how communities actually work. Having a social game is a biproduct of the players actively trying to be social, and forming bonds with other people they enjoyed playing with. People knew this in earlier MMOs, because we honestly didn't have a choice. There were very few MMOs people were playing, and if you screwed up in one, people knew it. Now that a lot of that responsibility is gone from newer MMOs, a lot of people aren't used to taking the initiative.
Great post. Really, this part drives it home for me. /win thread as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why people think that their MMOs should be solo-friendly. Certainly some content should be but if you really want to be able to solo an entire game, go play an RPG not an MMORPG.
Thanks. I don't necessarily think games shouldn't be solo friendly, but I think they should (and need) to have both kinds of content. It's about not gating play from players. Again, I'd point towards FFXI.
While I really enjoyed FFXI, there were definitely times when it got extremely frustrating. I'm talking about having to wait hours for the right people to log on, just so I could play the game. I enjoyed the challenge of it, but I don't think the long wait times on groups really made the game any less or more social. In a lot of ways it did the opposite. People would go afk for long periods of time, because not enough of the right people were online to get anything done.
People need to remember that being social starts with them, not the game.
Actually EVE-Online is similar in that respect... null sec or low sec roams need people and you're often times stuck waiting for others, same can be said of content which is waaaay to difficult to tackle solo (C4+ wormholes, incursions, 5/10+ complexes, etc) and that game thrives on social interaction for good or bad and it makes the game feel alive, sure it's a pain in the nuts to not be able to do what you want when you want it but EVE's got more choices than just the one, that's why it works so well within it and what makes the "ever present threat of getting ganked in a FFA PVP game!!!" bearable (I kinda like how people continue sometimes to use that as a crutch for their arguments against EVE but... played 7+ years, 0 ganks in high-sec and this with multiple war decs spanning the entire time ).
People knew this in earlier MMOs, because we honestly didn't have a choice. There were very few MMOs people were playing, and if you screwed up in one, people knew it. Now that a lot of that responsibility is gone from newer MMOs, a lot of people aren't used to taking the initiative.
Great post.
People need to remember that being social starts with them, not the game.
Great post, I wrote similar, that back in the days the less saturated market and the tighter playerbase were the main reasons for socializing and not the game mechanics. And the second line should be a great summary for the thread...
People need to remember that being social starts with them, not the game.
Yup, nice post. Thats what made old MMO's fun too. EQ was known for its social network, everyone communicatng about everything. In a way that's whats makes a mmo funner, not just being a loner looking, lurking around the scenery. Rift has some of this, therefore its a pretty enjoyable game. ON the mechanics of it..thats a different story.
GW2 and Rift are anything but social. They are the love-child of the anti-social king, WoW. I feel sorry for the modern mmo community and how far its fallen really. Every generation shows less and less humanity online, choosing to act like water flow with the path of least resistance, griefing when profittable and ignoring other gamers as a rule of conduct.
GW2 is not so much social as it is non-confrontational. Credit is shared, Rewards are shared and personal, grouping is not required or even encouraged. They basically just removed anything that could have caused interaction, competition or dependancy between the players directly.
Pretty much the opposite to social now that I think of it.
Guildwars 2 (which i feel is over-rated and don't like) felt LESS social then any other game I've played out there in a while. I don't see how its more 'social' unless your considering the different approach in which you are 'playing' with people but not really 'interacting' with one another. It just felt very weak in the social area, even more so then previous MMos out there
Rift (which I actually do like a lot) i really can't say is very social either. There are some social elements in terms of raiding and the likes, but honestly social wise i really don't see it really doing that all that much. You can claim 'events' do this but honestly I only really see it so for me being the faction vs faction (on PvP server) kind of pushing it during event, but even then its bare minimum and doesn't really feel all that much. Great Hunt rifts are the closest to social I see and I suppose that is a lot more 'social' then most games but still it doesn't really spark all that much conversation at all, its more so a mutual group working together, possibly chatting a bit though its not all that much chatting usually. In a way I do suppose the raids do this with group interaction with guilds but other games still do this, maybe not all (wow having raid finder) but theres enough I can't really consider it Rift doing it 'unique' even if its less pug friendly.
I just don't see either or being more social, perhaps having tools that COULD do so but GW2 fails horribly at that and makes players just feel like NPC in most cases with events, and Rift where it does kind of push more social play compared to other games minus Great Hunt Rifts, and even then its really not THAT much. I just think the 'social' element has died mostly due to players demanding easier content and those demands giving us the 'expectations' to be able to do it without having to interact, making us feel less inclined to talk.
At least in real life, most people don't blame the particular night club or bar they choose to go to on wether they were able to meet someone or socialize. Well,... at least I feel sorry for those that blame the establishment and not themselves. Those are usually the people that stay lonely.
These games have the appearance of being more social, but it's nothing more than that. It's very different from the actual social interaction and player interrelationships that were required in older games.
GW2 and RIFT are games that you play AROUND other players, not WITH other players. There's a big difference.
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If anyone thinks these games are more social then the old school games, are either blind or haven t played the old school games. GW2 was one of the most antisocial experiences I ve ever had in an MMO, and I actually enjoyed it for a brief time.
To answer anyone that says I didn t socialize so it s my fault, yes I did, just most people could care less if you re there.
Comments
Aye ^.
There are already games like this. One of them is FFXI (and man can that game be a pain in the arse to find groups for).
For me, being social is more than just put a bunch of people together. It is actually talking and working together for a common goal. In GW 2 and Rift I did not feel many social elements; Just being put together with a bunch of people, forming a zerg. Minimal communication and actual teamwork.
When I played Asheron's Call, way back, now that was a social experience. There were certain quests were you needed a party to work together to complete. Dungeons, which spawned so fast, that you needed a team clearing it out. And finally, the biggest social element, was on the PvP server where you had to work together with a team to survive in such a harsch atmosphere. That was indeed a social experience. Modern MMOs are just mindless Zerging and forming guilds and cooperating etc is just an optional thing that some people do but you really dont need to.
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That is what am saying and when it come to groups people gets angry and start with bad words and stuff
or in other words that is why harder areas and dungones and made for
wasnt really a problem in EQ. Even in wow, with dungeons which is what you talk about, you had this feeling, though not to the extent to which the person you quoted implies it was still there. Ass deep in UBRS without raid gear and you need someone to help finish the raid. The respawn timers are rapidly approaching and the guy who you invited doesn't get instantly teleported to your location. Some people found this boring .. I found it exhilarating and there was a sense of accomplishment that you just dont get when you press a LFD button get zapped into an instance, faceroll down all of the mobs 10-20 at a time, and collect epics.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Don't force people to group to do content, just put the best content (in terms of rewards) in the middle of FFA full loss/partial drop PVP areas and you'll see groups of people working together to survive in no time :P.
-waits for gasps from devout carebears-
Adversity breeds community, the petulant manchildren/womenchildren with a stick up their behinds and a bad attitude will have to run gauntlets alone whereas more decent folk will band together and work through the "griefer" swarms.
I think a big part of the problem is that (nowadays) people seem to expect games to be social for them. They don't work like that. The best a game can do is to provide avenues to be social for those who want to be, while avoiding mechanics that prevent players from working together (like the standard questing model).
In GW2, you are free to try and lone wolf it all, or you can take the initiative to actually talk to people and socialize. Generally I do the later, unless I'm either in a hurry or not in the mood to be social. That way my contacts list is always growing, I meet some very fun people in game on a regular basis, and if I want to do any number of the group content available in the game, I don't always have to rely on random PUGs to do it.
This problem isn't just in games, but I think too many people have forgotten how communities actually work. Having a social game is a biproduct of the players actively trying to be social, and forming bonds with other people they enjoyed playing with. People knew this in earlier MMOs, because we honestly didn't have a choice. There were very few MMOs people were playing, and if you screwed up in one, people knew it. Now that a lot of that responsibility is gone from newer MMOs, a lot of people aren't used to taking the initiative.
you want people to socialize in a MMo are you crazy ???? go delete your post before someone else sees it go now.
Lol.
Is that the best example you can come up with? So what? Don't expect to do be able to go do a raid at 5AM when nobody is on. That's not a reasonable expectation.
Is it the games that have change, or is it just your view? Asheron's Call was my first mmo. I remember pushing deep into a Lugian Citadel and finally making it to the uppermost room. There was only 4-5 of us up there, and while we were in a fellowship for xp bonus, we didn't really talk to much outside of in between spawns.
Fast forward to GW2. I am running around completing heart events, and grouping up with others in the immediate area to tackle events and even do some puzzle dungeons together. We don't really talk much outside of saying thanks, or some light chit chat when one of us figures out the solution to the puzzle.
Both experiences feel very much the same for me. In many ways, how the games are played, GW2 and AC are pretty similar.
Now, I will completely disagree with your statements on guilds. Guilds can make or break a gaming experience for many people. Unless I am in a guild with similar minded individuals, I don't find mmos enjoyable. Guilds can enable ease of finding groups for grouping content. Produce a better grouping experience since you're typically grouping with the same people on a regular basis, which produces better teamwork. Additionally, the social aspect of gaming is very much present in good guilds.
Honestly, I wouldn't say games are any more or any less social than they used to be. The community is far more negative and filled with vitriolic rhetoric. Often times you'll see questions answered with sarcasm and disdain. Then the community wonders why these games are "less social". Who would seriously want to talk to people when they act like raging assholes much of the time? Good guilds also become more xenophobic because of how poor the community in general has become. Social experiences that used to happen naturally, don't happen now, because people don't want to be trolled.
Great post. Really, this part drives it home for me. /win thread as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why people think that their MMOs should be solo-friendly. Certainly some content should be but if you really want to be able to solo an entire game, go play an RPG not an MMORPG.
He's not talking about raids man. He's talking about normal content.
Check out how games like FFXI, EQ, etc. work and you'll see what he's talking about. Aside from maybe crafting, there was literally nothing you could do in those games without a group. THAT is forced grouping.
I agree with your post and i agree wit hthe premise of the topic,but i am left in total awe as to why the notion that either GW2 or Rift offer anything to imroving the social apsect?if anything GW2 does nothign and Rift does the exact opposite.
The MOST social desined game was FFXI [of old],that is the game you can compare changes or differences.When you create a game such as FFXI,you pretty much FORCE everyone to be social,is that really a bad thing,since we are playing a MMO right?
Instances does NOT equal social
auto grouping does NOT equal social
solo linear content does NOT equal social
So i really question the games mentioned.Is this just another pat on the back of Trion a major sponsor here,possibly,i don't really know,but then GW2?IDk maybe a fave game of a few of the staff members,so trying to pat that game on the back?
The definition of social tends to gear towards organized group of people,auto grouping is NOT organized.Also you must be enjoying the company of others,how exactly are we enjoying each others company,if we randomly pop into a large group,where you don't either know anyone nor do you even talk to them?
FFXi was the game that forced that,it doesn't mean EVERY single group will be social,but it plays into that effect a heck of a lot more than any Rift or GW2 game does.
I also question the mention of auto loot,how does that effect the SOCIAL aspect in any form or fashion?That is simply a mechanic that is left for argument in a different topic.
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Thanks. I don't necessarily think games shouldn't be solo friendly, but I think they should (and need) to have both kinds of content. It's about not gating play from players. Again, I'd point towards FFXI.
While I really enjoyed FFXI, there were definitely times when it got extremely frustrating. I'm talking about having to wait hours for the right people to log on, just so I could play the game. I enjoyed the challenge of it, but I don't think the long wait times on groups really made the game any less or more social. In a lot of ways it did the opposite. People would go afk for long periods of time, because not enough of the right people were online to get anything done.
People need to remember that being social starts with them, not the game.
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And it only changed how much precaution I made in LotRO before I jump in to help after that incident. It's not extreme, I guess. There's a first in everything, for me that was the first time I heard about this non-group punishment mechanic in the game. Since I mostly play healer / support, it's only natural I don't like to see people just drop
and of course I ask before - if there's time. Maybe you skipped the "only seconds from defeat" part. It'd have been futile to ask anyways since he tried to run from them, so no time to him for type an answer either...
I know it's hard to believe that someone knows the game he's playing, but trust me, if you see a near-death champ trying to run away from multiple ranged angmarims, then yes, he will drop very soon...
And for the forced grouping on your previous post: I never said groups are unnecessary or bad and solo play is superior. Group activity is the best part in any rpg, not only mmorpg's. I only say forced grouping is bad.
And I mean by "forced" exactly what WellzyC wrote before, not an option to group up for easier completion or better loot or a hard dungeon. If we stay at LotRO as an example, there you got literally stucked in the Book quest line if you couldn't find a group. It didn't matter the reason, your timezone, or your kin was occupied elsewhere, or nobody signed for a pug - until you couldn't find a group, you were stucked there. And that's a mechanism I'm happy when gets removed from every game. Grouping should be a better option which players choose happily, and not something that is forced onto them hoping that way maybe they will start to chat.
find it funny people bring up FFXI so much as the "pinnacle" of social MMOs because of forced grouping.. i played that one for a decent amount of time and half the time my group consisted of all individuals who spoke no english at all and had to rely on the ingame translater to talk which lead to some very amusing and hillarious conversations but a lot of the time not a whole lot was said especially since many played on console so people would use the pre-made phrases.. overall i don't see forced grouping as making a more social game just a more frustrating one..
in every MMO i have played generally as long as everyone knew the mechanics of the encounter no real talking was needed to complete anything(i don't raid much so referring to open world and 5 man stuff)
but making the economy player ran will lead to more social interactions.. for me id say SWG was the most social MMO i have played
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Actually EVE-Online is similar in that respect... null sec or low sec roams need people and you're often times stuck waiting for others, same can be said of content which is waaaay to difficult to tackle solo (C4+ wormholes, incursions, 5/10+ complexes, etc) and that game thrives on social interaction for good or bad and it makes the game feel alive, sure it's a pain in the nuts to not be able to do what you want when you want it but EVE's got more choices than just the one, that's why it works so well within it and what makes the "ever present threat of getting ganked in a FFA PVP game!!!" bearable (I kinda like how people continue sometimes to use that as a crutch for their arguments against EVE but... played 7+ years, 0 ganks in high-sec
and this with multiple war decs spanning the entire time ).
Great post, I wrote similar, that back in the days the less saturated market and the tighter playerbase were the main reasons for socializing and not the game mechanics. And the second line should be a great summary for the thread...
People need to remember that being social starts with them, not the game.
This. +1.
GW2 is not so much social as it is non-confrontational. Credit is shared, Rewards are shared and personal, grouping is not required or even encouraged. They basically just removed anything that could have caused interaction, competition or dependancy between the players directly.
Pretty much the opposite to social now that I think of it.
Wait... what?
Guildwars 2 (which i feel is over-rated and don't like) felt LESS social then any other game I've played out there in a while. I don't see how its more 'social' unless your considering the different approach in which you are 'playing' with people but not really 'interacting' with one another. It just felt very weak in the social area, even more so then previous MMos out there
Rift (which I actually do like a lot) i really can't say is very social either. There are some social elements in terms of raiding and the likes, but honestly social wise i really don't see it really doing that all that much. You can claim 'events' do this but honestly I only really see it so for me being the faction vs faction (on PvP server) kind of pushing it during event, but even then its bare minimum and doesn't really feel all that much. Great Hunt rifts are the closest to social I see and I suppose that is a lot more 'social' then most games but still it doesn't really spark all that much conversation at all, its more so a mutual group working together, possibly chatting a bit though its not all that much chatting usually. In a way I do suppose the raids do this with group interaction with guilds but other games still do this, maybe not all (wow having raid finder) but theres enough I can't really consider it Rift doing it 'unique' even if its less pug friendly.
I just don't see either or being more social, perhaps having tools that COULD do so but GW2 fails horribly at that and makes players just feel like NPC in most cases with events, and Rift where it does kind of push more social play compared to other games minus Great Hunt Rifts, and even then its really not THAT much. I just think the 'social' element has died mostly due to players demanding easier content and those demands giving us the 'expectations' to be able to do it without having to interact, making us feel less inclined to talk.
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Very well said.
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If anyone thinks these games are more social then the old school games, are either blind or haven t played the old school games. GW2 was one of the most antisocial experiences I ve ever had in an MMO, and I actually enjoyed it for a brief time.
To answer anyone that says I didn t socialize so it s my fault, yes I did, just most people could care less if you re there.