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Another great title ruined to the themepark.

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  • ForumPvPForumPvP Member Posts: 871
    Like SWTOR left out bunch of the things that made Star Wars great and now ESO ignoring things that made Elder Scrolls series so great.

    i wish you luck ESO but know this,WoW is prepared and fully geared and ready and droprate for its crown is pretty small.




    Let's internet

  • SysFailSysFail Member Posts: 375
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by SysFail

    How can they possibly know how a sandbox will do, when one hasn't been made by one of the big boys for a very long time. The last one made by a big company was SWG, which was actually successful prior to the horrible changes.

    SWG 'was' successful sor couple of years and yet had to undergo changes in order to generate more revenue. Ever heard of a super successful MMOS going through extreme changes in order to get more players?...i haven't. So all we got is one MMO from past which was successful and EVE ONLINE which is ina league of its own.

    You are right sandbox scene looks pretty encouraging for investors to dump their hard earned money into this genre.

    It under went changes because of greed. It had a quarter of a million subs before these changes, thats almost 40 million a year, developers would bite your hand off if you offered that to them now, but at the time they all wanted WoW's numbers.

    UO was another victim, it had numbers similar to SWG, but like Sony, EA wanted that WoW money.

    Now since WoW, what themepark can anyone really say has been a major success?

     

  • jfoytekjfoytek Member CommonPosts: 150
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by SysFail

    How can they possibly know how a sandbox will do, when one hasn't been made by one of the big boys for a very long time. The last one made by a big company was SWG, which was actually successful prior to the horrible changes.

    SWG 'was' successful sor couple of years and yet had to undergo changes in order to generate more revenue. Ever heard of a super successful MMOS going through extreme changes in order to get more players?...i haven't. So all we got is one MMO from past which was successful and EVE ONLINE which is ina league of its own.

    You are right sandbox scene looks pretty encouraging for investors to dump their hard earned money into this genre.

    SWG was successful because it WAS a great game, when they made the changes NGE etc.... they lost there client base IF they had never made those changes I would still be playing there as would half the MMO community that plays so many other games right now!!!!  There changes ruined the game...........   They didnt have to make said changes and they would still be a top 3 game today if they didnt!!!!

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  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by SysFail

    How can they possibly know how a sandbox will do, when one hasn't been made by one of the big boys for a very long time. The last one made by a big company was SWG, which was actually successful prior to the horrible changes.

    SWG 'was' successful sor couple of years and yet had to undergo changes in order to generate more revenue. Ever heard of a super successful MMOS going through extreme changes in order to get more players?...i haven't. So all we got is one MMO from past which was successful and EVE ONLINE which is ina league of its own.

    You are right sandbox scene looks pretty encouraging for investors to dump their hard earned money into this genre.

    Incorrect, a properly build sandbox would be popular with both the hardcore FFA PVP full drop/partial loot system and the PVE themepark scene but the problem is no one is trying to build such an MMO because they all take the easy route of the WoW mould and innevitably fail to even touch WoW's level of success.

     

    The sandbox scene is encouraging investors to dump money on a good MMO developer to build a great sandbox the issue though is that there are no such developers, CCP had a perfect storm with EVE which they've been wise enough not to dick around with in SWG NGE fashion for projected profits.

    If i had a  scent for everytime someone said this on these forums i would be a millionaire by now. 

    However, i would like to know how one sandbox title like EVE ONLINE which is not even a fantasy or high fantasy title is encouraging investors to dump millions into  a AAA sandbox titles like ESO? 

    By the way CCP did try to dick around to generate revenue in their own way (remember monacle debacle?). Every company in here is to make money and get rich, one has to be very naive to think otherwise.

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  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 3,306
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by SysFail
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser

    You are right OP considering that how successful sandbox MMOS are and how much money studios make from sandbox titles. Investors are foolish to put their money into ESO project which is clearly a themepark MMO. I mean who would want to dump their hard earned money just like that?

    Fools i say.

    Yup, EA got is spot on with the star wars IP and other companies are leaping to repeat the same model with well known IP's.

    What is hilarious is that EA probably makes more money with a  failed  themepark MMO like SWTOR in comparison to all sandbox MMOS of which there is only one successfukl title EVE ONLINE and which is not even a fantasy / high fantasy title. lolz!!

    o.O have you been smoking some strong shit while I haven't been looking again? Check your facts or better yet state your sources please.

    I need to state facts now to show that themepark MMOS make more money and have more players than sandbox titles and that EVE ONLINE is the only successful sandbox MMO? who would have thunk.

    It is very easy to prove what i said wrong by giving examples of very successful sandbox MMOS which would encourage investors to dump their money into sandbox projects. Got any?

    Two recent Theampark MMO's

    SWTOR - http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/08/01/five-lessons-learned-as-swtor-surrenders/

    SWO- http://trekmovie.com/2011/05/17/atari-to-sell-star-trek-online-developer-cryptic-promise-continued-sto-support/

     

    Sandbox's that are doing fine financially

    Wurm Online

    Eve Online

    World War II Online

    Atlantica Online

    Perpetuum Online

    ***Ultima Online*** Based off of sheer longevity that its still kicking

     

    Yes World of Warcraft is the Financial juggernaut but its not totally Theampark!  The Large majority of the game is a SandBox and that is the recipe of its success! 

     

    Atlantica online is in no way, shape or form a sandbox.

     

    Just thought I'd throw that out there.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by SysFail

    How can they possibly know how a sandbox will do, when one hasn't been made by one of the big boys for a very long time. The last one made by a big company was SWG, which was actually successful prior to the horrible changes.

    SWG 'was' successful sor couple of years and yet had to undergo changes in order to generate more revenue. Ever heard of a super successful MMOS going through extreme changes in order to get more players?...i haven't. So all we got is one MMO from past which was successful and EVE ONLINE which is ina league of its own.

    You are right sandbox scene looks pretty encouraging for investors to dump their hard earned money into this genre.

    Minecraft sold 9m on PC and 20m on all platforms and is going to offer a subscription service. While it's not listed on this site as an mmo it has thousands of servers that can hold hundreds of people. I would say there is a demand for good sandbox games.

    Also L O L at WoW being refered to as sandbox.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,372
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

     

    Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

    This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

    Trammel Ruined Ultima Online - It was an attempt to save UO as people who didn't care for open PVP (and looking for better graphics) fled to EQ1

    NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's - Arguably true, but again, it was an attempt to make the game more appealing to the casual crowd that WOW was drawing in by the millions, just didn't work out like they hoped.

    The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert - Nonsense, while SB had some great concepts, it was poorly delivered being both buggy as hell, full of lag and had unstable severs.  One big fail was the design that let literally one mega guild roll entire servers.

    Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations - Darkfall was another poorly designed, incomplete and poorly delivererd game, poor customer relations was one of the least of their problems.

    And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server" - Again, nonsense, if it "fails" it will likely be due to the fact it really is at its core a standard theme park MMO, and I'm not sure the market really will support them to any great degree anymore. (to the extent WOW has been supported)

     And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

    From this and your other post it's pretty obvious you favor PVP centric titles with strong crafting to support them.  This is not now, nor was it ever going to be that game.  It's not really a whole lot like DAOC, even less do with their recent annoucements so it was never going to be a title you were going to like.

    If one enjoys standard theme park MMO's, is willing to be flexible regarding the IP/Lore in terms of designs, I'm guessing this will be a title that you enjoy.

     It's not something I'm really looking for, but it likely will have a strong launch, then taper off to some core amount of subs or eventually go F2P like most of its predecessors have.

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  • jfoytekjfoytek Member CommonPosts: 150
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

     

    Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

    This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

    Trammel Ruined Ultima Online

    NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's

    The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert

    Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations

    And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server"

     

    And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

    errr... you think wow is a sandbox?

    now i've seen it all i guess....

    WoW has a world that everyone can go to every part of that is a SandBox

    But

    WoW has instanced dungeons that only allow certain people in... That is Theampark

     

    The % of Theampark compared to Sandbox in WoW is acceptable to me as a player 

     

    But games like Star Trek Online where an entire system can only be entered by you and your group mates  is not acceptable, or SWTOR where you have to complete a quest chain before your allowed to leave the zone and continue on....

    These are Traits of a Theampark I cannot accept...

     

    So while WoW maybe the birth of the Theampark it still holds the freedom of movement that a traditional sandbox has...  Thus what I mean by my statement

     

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by nilden
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by SysFail

    How can they possibly know how a sandbox will do, when one hasn't been made by one of the big boys for a very long time. The last one made by a big company was SWG, which was actually successful prior to the horrible changes.

    SWG 'was' successful sor couple of years and yet had to undergo changes in order to generate more revenue. Ever heard of a super successful MMOS going through extreme changes in order to get more players?...i haven't. So all we got is one MMO from past which was successful and EVE ONLINE which is ina league of its own.

    You are right sandbox scene looks pretty encouraging for investors to dump their hard earned money into this genre.

    Minecraft sold 9m on PC and 20m on all platforms and is going to offer a subscription service. While it's not listed on this site as an mmo it has thousands of servers that can hold hundreds of people. I would say there is a demand for good sandbox games.

    Also L O L at WoW being refered to as sandbox.

    Minecraft shines mostly because of being a singleplayer game or where you can play it with few of your friends. I really doubt that Minecraft would have sold the same if it was FFA open world PVP title like say Mortal Online or Darkfall. And you are right it is not a MMO and devs never claimed it was.

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    -Jesse Schell

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    image

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by SysFail

    How can they possibly know how a sandbox will do, when one hasn't been made by one of the big boys for a very long time. The last one made by a big company was SWG, which was actually successful prior to the horrible changes.

    SWG 'was' successful sor couple of years and yet had to undergo changes in order to generate more revenue. Ever heard of a super successful MMOS going through extreme changes in order to get more players?...i haven't. So all we got is one MMO from past which was successful and EVE ONLINE which is ina league of its own.

    You are right sandbox scene looks pretty encouraging for investors to dump their hard earned money into this genre.

    Incorrect, a properly build sandbox would be popular with both the hardcore FFA PVP full drop/partial loot system and the PVE themepark scene but the problem is no one is trying to build such an MMO because they all take the easy route of the WoW mould and innevitably fail to even touch WoW's level of success.

     

    The sandbox scene is encouraging investors to dump money on a good MMO developer to build a great sandbox the issue though is that there are no such developers, CCP had a perfect storm with EVE which they've been wise enough not to dick around with in SWG NGE fashion for projected profits.

    If i had  scent for everytime someone said this on these forums i would be a millionaire by now. 

    However i would like to know how one sandbox title like EVE ONLINE which is not even a fantasy or high fantasy title is encouraging investors to dump millions into  a AAA sandbox titles like ESO? 

    By the way CCP did try to dick around to generate revenue in their own way (remember monacle debacle?). Every company in here is to make money and get rich, one has to be very naive to think otherwise.

    [mod edit]

     

    And how does a sandbox making money 10 years into its existence with over a quarter of a million users while maintaining a P2P model not incentivize other developers to adapt their sandbox mechanics to other IPs? (be them high fantasy, post apocalyptic, science fiction, christ you could even go with alternate reality).

     

    By the way Monoclegate was not CCP dicking around with their game, it was them flirting with the idea and the community making a show of force to prove that the game as is is as close to perfect as you can get, for us (I was one of the protestors) and that all the game needs is tweaks and enhancements to the overall existing game experience (more ships, iterating and polishing current mechanics, eventually expanding the universe either via more wormhole space or more 0.0 space). The developers who dicked around with their games no longer have communities and the ones who tried lost allot of the community. 

    image
  • jfoytekjfoytek Member CommonPosts: 150
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by nilden
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by SysFail

    How can they possibly know how a sandbox will do, when one hasn't been made by one of the big boys for a very long time. The last one made by a big company was SWG, which was actually successful prior to the horrible changes.

    SWG 'was' successful sor couple of years and yet had to undergo changes in order to generate more revenue. Ever heard of a super successful MMOS going through extreme changes in order to get more players?...i haven't. So all we got is one MMO from past which was successful and EVE ONLINE which is ina league of its own.

    You are right sandbox scene looks pretty encouraging for investors to dump their hard earned money into this genre.

    Minecraft sold 9m on PC and 20m on all platforms and is going to offer a subscription service. While it's not listed on this site as an mmo it has thousands of servers that can hold hundreds of people. I would say there is a demand for good sandbox games.

    Also L O L at WoW being refered to as sandbox.

    Minecraft shines mostly because of being a singleplayer game or where you can play it with few of your friends. I really doubt that Minecraft would have sold the same if it was FFA open world PVP title like say Mortal Online or Darkfall. And you are right it is not a MMO and devs never claimed it was.

    The best part about minecraft is the multiplayer!  And there are many enjoyable FFA open pvp servers...  Actually the fact that minecraft has so many different flavors or servers to suit everyone from the builder to the crafter to the pvper to the carebear is its strong point!

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by Dihoru

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    And how does a sandbox making money 10 years into its existence with over a quarter of a million users while maintaining a P2P model not incentivize other developers to adapt their sandbox mechanics to other IPs? (be them high fantasy, post apocalyptic, science fiction, christ you could even go with alternate reality).

     I am pretty sure investors need a lot more convincing than one sci fi MMO title which didn't even start as a AAA project but took good 8 years to get around 500K players. I was one of those early birds in EVE ONLINE when there were just  5K of us. However, this topic isn't about starting small but making a AAA sandbox title called ESO.

    By the way Monoclegate was not CCP dicking around with their game, it was them flirting with the idea and the community making a show of force to prove that the game as is is as close to perfect as you can get, for us (I was one of the protestors) and that all the game needs is tweaks and enhancements to the overall existing game experience (more ships, iterating and polishing current mechanics, eventually expanding the universe either via more wormhole space or more 0.0 space). The developers who dicked around with their games no longer have communities and the ones who tried lost allot of the community. 

    Successful flirting or not i simply stated that to show CCP isn't the saint and they also love money. It is a business after all and it is always easier to have opinions when money is not coming right out of our own pockets.

     

    [mod edit]

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • jfoytekjfoytek Member CommonPosts: 150

    Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

     

    Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

    Theampark

    PvE

    or Just not very good

     

    Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

    And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

     

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Dihoru

     [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    And how does a sandbox making money 10 years into its existence with over a quarter of a million users while maintaining a P2P model not incentivize other developers to adapt their sandbox mechanics to other IPs? (be them high fantasy, post apocalyptic, science fiction, christ you could even go with alternate reality).

     I am pretty sure investors need a lot more convincing than one sci fi MMO title which didn't even start as a AAA project but took good 8 years to get around 500K players. I was one of those early birds in EVE ONLINE when there were just  5K of us. However, this topic isn't about starting small but making a AAA sandbox title called ESO.

    By the way Monoclegate was not CCP dicking around with their game, it was them flirting with the idea and the community making a show of force to prove that the game as is is as close to perfect as you can get, for us (I was one of the protestors) and that all the game needs is tweaks and enhancements to the overall existing game experience (more ships, iterating and polishing current mechanics, eventually expanding the universe either via more wormhole space or more 0.0 space). The developers who dicked around with their games no longer have communities and the ones who tried lost allot of the community. 

    Successful flirting or not i simply stated that to show CCP isn't the saint and they also love money. It is a business after all and it is always easier to have opinions when money is not coming right out of our own pockets.

     

    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

     

    Now you can argue all you want but a business can plan for the long term not only the short term, if they resonably expect to appeal to a set mindset of individuals and cater to those people then the MMO will prosper but ESO is going to try to go for two crowds: the themeparkers and the TES crowd and those two groups do not overlap that much.

     

    Also when EVE launched the term AAA didn't even exist, christ I don't even think WoW was touted as being a "AAA" game and to be perfectly frank I am glad neither of em were classed as AAA because AAA just means allot of money sunk into them and the more money invested the more chances that game will be more conventional (IE more safe in the invester eyes). The best of both worlds is to have a A or AA game because developers might actually get the leeway to try to make something new even if the graphics stink compared to other games of its generation CCP proved that graphics can be improved quite a bit down the line.

    image
  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529

    Last I checked, themepark / sandbox are game genres. One isn't superior than the other. One might appeal to you more but that's personal taste.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,892
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     

     

     CAREBEARS!!! 

    ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

    Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

    Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

    What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

    Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

    in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

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  • MalacthMalacth Member UncommonPosts: 121
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by MikeJezZ
    Originally posted by SysFail
    I completely agree with everything the OP has said, even WoW the king of the themepark was enjoyable until they added in battllegrounds.

    There's still World PVP in WoW, however, limited to a few areas

    If its limited to zones its NOT WORLD pvp its Zone pvp...

    Is it still zone pvp is its 99% world PvP? You can PvP anywhere in WoW, except for three cities. So yeah. People just don't do it, cos world PvP is just a zerg and no fun unless its structured, and even then its largely a zerg. Only fun if you're on the winning side, and the winning side is determined by numbers and not skill. I don't find that fun at all. And apparently most people don't, otherwise we'd still have mass world PvP. Just sayin'.

  • RelGnRelGn Member Posts: 494

    Heres what happens everyone is trying to copy wow and they dont copy the most vital thing

    Seamless world.

    Did you heard the latest news?

    You can go to other faction regions and see only your faction.Now thats the biggest letdown.

    No open pvp no immersion.

    Screw this.This game may look great but the mechanics are just making me hate it.

    Hail to the carebears and the new generation of gamers who want to play an mmo in single player style with a twist of big pvp arena.

     

    image
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Dihoru

     And if everyone on the forum got paid a cent for every spelling error you made in your posts the forum could collectively sponsor a MMO by now.

     That was weak really. Attacking my spellings now? which i do edit by the way. And here i thought we were having a good discussion. And yes i make spelling mistakes because i can onlye use 2 fingers of my left hand. And kind of hard to type with just one right hand.

    And how does a sandbox making money 10 years into its existence with over a quarter of a million users while maintaining a P2P model not incentivize other developers to adapt their sandbox mechanics to other IPs? (be them high fantasy, post apocalyptic, science fiction, christ you could even go with alternate reality).

     I am pretty sure investors need a lot more convincing than one sci fi MMO title which didn't even start as a AAA project but took good 8 years to get around 500K players. I was one of those early birds in EVE ONLINE when there were just  5K of us. However, this topic isn't about starting small but making a AAA sandbox title called ESO.

    By the way Monoclegate was not CCP dicking around with their game, it was them flirting with the idea and the community making a show of force to prove that the game as is is as close to perfect as you can get, for us (I was one of the protestors) and that all the game needs is tweaks and enhancements to the overall existing game experience (more ships, iterating and polishing current mechanics, eventually expanding the universe either via more wormhole space or more 0.0 space). The developers who dicked around with their games no longer have communities and the ones who tried lost allot of the community. 

    Successful flirting or not i simply stated that to show CCP isn't the saint and they also love money. It is a business after all and it is always easier to have opinions when money is not coming right out of our own pockets.

     

    ?p.s i typed really slow this time to not offend your highness with my spelling errors.

    And you still made a couple of grammar mistakes now (for example: spellings isn't even a word).

    Thanks i will edit that too. You are helping me to be such a better man i really appreciate that.

     

    Now you can argue all you want but a business can plan for the long term not only the short term, if they resonably expect to appeal to a set mindset of individuals and cater to those people then the MMO will prosper but ESO is going to try to go for two crowds: the themeparkers and the TES crowd and those two groups do not overlap that much.

     I am arguing about business plan because it is very vital and everything boils down to investors and their money. As far as appeal goes, ESO (for those who have done some genuine research about the title so far) it is not  a copy of WOW but much more. It is more of a mixture of DAOC and GW2. It retains a lot of features from ES series. So in my opinion it is wrong to just limit ESO by using the word 'themepark'. Unles GW2 and DAOC are also WOW clones it wouldn't be right to call ESO the same.

    But for some unless it is not a FFA full loot PVP MMO it is not a sandbox.

    Also when EVE launched the term AAA didn't even exist, christ I don't even think WoW was touted as being a "AAA" game and to be perfectly frank I am glad neither of em were classed as AAA because AAA just means allot of money sunk into them and the more money invested the more chances that game will be more conventional (IE more safe in the invester eyes). The best of both worlds is to have a A or AA game because developers might actually get the leeway to try to make something new even if the graphics stink compared to other games of its generation CCP proved that graphics can be improved quite a bit down the line.

    The term AAA mostly referes to amount of budgest and even if the term didn't exist back then EVE online i had a very small budget. But since the players are so critical these days they wouldn't settle for a low budget sandbox ESO title either. So it has to be a sandbox as well as AAA something which is very unlikely unless some other sandbox title with high fantasy theme generates millions in revenue and subscribers..all companies will just wait in a hope that someone else will make the first move.

     

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • jfoytekjfoytek Member CommonPosts: 150
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     

     

     CAREBEARS!!! 

    ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

    Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

    Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

    What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

    Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

    in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

    Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

    So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     

     

     CAREBEARS!!! 

    ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

    Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

    Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

    What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

    Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

    in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

    Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

    So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

    And it is same for ESO. And there is no typical questing in ESO like WOW and is as instanced as WOW is. What do you exactly mean when you say ESO zones are instanced?

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Dihoru

     And if everyone on the forum got paid a cent for every spelling error you made in your posts the forum could collectively sponsor a MMO by now.

     That was weak really. Attacking my spellings now? which i do edit by the way. And here i thought we were having a good discussion. And yes i make spelling mistakes because i can onlye use 2 fingers of my left hand. And kind of hard to type with just one right hand.

    And how does a sandbox making money 10 years into its existence with over a quarter of a million users while maintaining a P2P model not incentivize other developers to adapt their sandbox mechanics to other IPs? (be them high fantasy, post apocalyptic, science fiction, christ you could even go with alternate reality).

     I am pretty sure investors need a lot more convincing than one sci fi MMO title which didn't even start as a AAA project but took good 8 years to get around 500K players. I was one of those early birds in EVE ONLINE when there were just  5K of us. However, this topic isn't about starting small but making a AAA sandbox title called ESO.

    By the way Monoclegate was not CCP dicking around with their game, it was them flirting with the idea and the community making a show of force to prove that the game as is is as close to perfect as you can get, for us (I was one of the protestors) and that all the game needs is tweaks and enhancements to the overall existing game experience (more ships, iterating and polishing current mechanics, eventually expanding the universe either via more wormhole space or more 0.0 space). The developers who dicked around with their games no longer have communities and the ones who tried lost allot of the community. 

    Successful flirting or not i simply stated that to show CCP isn't the saint and they also love money. It is a business after all and it is always easier to have opinions when money is not coming right out of our own pockets.

     

    ?p.s i typed really slow this time to not offend your highness with my spelling errors.

    And you still made a couple of grammar mistakes now (for example: spellings isn't even a word).

    Thanks i will edit that too. You are helping me to be such a better man i really appreciate that.

     

    Now you can argue all you want but a business can plan for the long term not only the short term, if they resonably expect to appeal to a set mindset of individuals and cater to those people then the MMO will prosper but ESO is going to try to go for two crowds: the themeparkers and the TES crowd and those two groups do not overlap that much.

     I am arguing about business plan because it is very vital and everything boils down to investors and their money. As far as appeal goes, ESO (for those who have done some genuine research about the title so far) it is not  a copy of WOW but much more. It is more of a mixture of DAOC and GW2. It retains a lot of features from ES series. So in my opinion it is wrong to just limit ESO by using the word 'themepark'. Unles GW2 and DAOC are also WOW clones it wouldn't be right to call ESO the same.

    But for some unless it is not a FFA full loot PVP MMO it is not a sandbox.

    Also when EVE launched the term AAA didn't even exist, christ I don't even think WoW was touted as being a "AAA" game and to be perfectly frank I am glad neither of em were classed as AAA because AAA just means allot of money sunk into them and the more money invested the more chances that game will be more conventional (IE more safe in the invester eyes). The best of both worlds is to have a A or AA game because developers might actually get the leeway to try to make something new even if the graphics stink compared to other games of its generation CCP proved that graphics can be improved quite a bit down the line.

    The term AAA mostly referes to amount of budgest and even if the term didn't exist back then EVE online i had a very small budget. But since the players are so critical these days they wouldn't settle for a low budget sandbox ESO title either. So it has to be a sandbox as well as AAA something which is very unlikely unless some other sandbox title with high fantasy theme generates millions in revenue and subscribers..all companies will just wait in a hope that someone else will make the first move.

     

    WoW cost 40 $ mil to develop.

    EVE Online cost around 6-7 $ mil (5-6 mil euros) to develop.

    These being the vanilla versions of both games.

    For comparison's sake SWTOR cost around a minimum of 100 mil $ to develop. Now I am no expert in economy but I highly doubt that the US $ in 2003 is 2.5x that of the US$ in 2011 ergo money in itself does not make a game great, Hell I contend that the original version of WoW looked overall better than SWTOR from a purely gamer perspective (SWTOR is more advanced graphically yes but which of those two games would you say appeals more to a gamer overall?).

     

    A sandbox game does not require this gen MMO graphics to be competitive, what it does need is solid gameplay, a decent universe/background lore, a freedom of choices and a consequence for every choice you make (be it PVP, PVE, etc, etc) so that even if you choose to kill that guy in the corner because he looked at you funny you may then either get killed by the local law enforcers or by  vengeful friends of said player which are only the direct ways to exact retribution (I remember somewhere on the forums someone saying griefers can dodge consequences with alts, all you need to do in that case is know that guy's alts and make his life Hell either directly, killing, looting, etc or indirectly, financially griefing his support alts by say denying him resources or space or access to crafting areas, etc).

    image
  • fs23otmfs23otm Member RarePosts: 506

    The problem with the term "sandbox" is that no one that wants to play a sandbox can actually agree what a sandbox is....

    The game could have tons of sandbox features, and be missing one thing and people scream "it's not a sandbox".... then the next game has that feature and people scream " Not a sandbox"

    Until someone can clearly define what a sandbox is, it will never satisfy anyone. 

    IMHO, I think sandbox is just a mindset that people use to bash games. I have played tons of MMORPGs and I played all of them they way that I wanted. Which is what I consider a sandbox to be.... a place to play as you want. So every game is a sandbox...

  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

     

    Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

    Theampark

    PvE

    or Just not very good

     

    Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

    And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

     

    How would you pitch a PVP/Crafting/Sandbox game to an investor? Can you show me one title out there that has made enough of a profit to justify the budget it would take to create it? This isn't 1999. There is heavy competition out there for our gaming dollars and the MMO player demands more from a game now then they ever did. What would you say to someone to get them to shell out millions of dollars for your game? What proof do you have that it could be a success? A few people on a forum that is known for its miserable posters wanting one? Would you try and point to EvE? An Indy title that has about 250k-300k subs? You would invest millions with that kind of proof being handed to you?

    Now think about if you had control over one of those popular IP's. Would you risk it? Would you want your IP tied to a game like SWG? A game that goes down in history as the "what not to do to your MMO" poster child.

    I am not saying that making a themepark game is a sure thing. I'm just saying if I were to invest money in to a game I would want the best odds I could get. Considering WoW makes more money off of vaniety pets and mounts in their store than most games make in a year or 2 of subs and it has completely dominated the industry for over 8 years thats the way I'm going.

    So you are stuck in a vicious cirlce. Your type of game has not been made by a AAA studio with a large budget because there is no proof it would be profitable. There is no proof it would be profitable because no one has taken the risk to make your game. It could be profitable. It could be the next WoW. No one really knows how the industry could turn but right now your only hope is a Indy studio that has some really talented people. I highly doubt you will ever see a well known, popular IP or any high rolling investors take that risk unless a small little Indy studio hits it big.

     

  • jfoytekjfoytek Member CommonPosts: 150
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by jfoytek
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jfoytek

     

     

     CAREBEARS!!! 

    ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

    Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

    Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

    What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

    Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

    in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

    Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

    So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

    And it is same for ESO. And there is no typical questing in ESO like WOW and is as instanced as WOW is. What do you exactly mean when you say ESO zones are instanced?

    It doesnt take a genius to figure out what the Mega Server is! 

    Lets see when you complete all the quests in your home region you will be able to go enjoy level 50 content in another regions home region and do all the quests etc there..... 

    Now think about it!!!  You were a nightelf in WoW and you start off in Darnassus when you hit 50 you can now go do all the content in Mulgore but why???  Why would you take on a bunch of lvl 1 mobs how is this level 50 content?  How can the content be level 50 for you and level 1 for them???  Because you are in an identical Instance of the zone that they are in, your content is your level there content is there level.... IE the Mega Server at work....

    Infact lets not stop there lets choose PvE only so now your in this copy of a zone that doesnt allow pvp and is scaled to your level....

    While someone else is in a similiar copy who Chose PvP etc etc

    And its all one Huge Mega Server..... Uh yeah what a scam...  Its more like 10,000 Instanced zones running at the same time with a couple people in them....

    Hmmm its about as Mega Server as World of Tanks is!!!

     

    UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

This discussion has been closed.