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Another great title ruined to the themepark.

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Comments

  • doodphacedoodphace Member UncommonPosts: 1,858
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    Well atleast it didnt bleed subs as fast as SWTOR did at its rate it wont make it anywhere near the length of time SWG did!

    1.7M down to less then 1M.... if that trend continues in a few months SWTOR will be at 1 sub!

    But Theamparks are the best model

    /Sarcasm

    So, SWTOR bled subs faster at launch, stablized at a vastly higher number, but we ignore that and just focus on the initial bleeding and imply it did worse?

    This obviously is going nowhere lol

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    The Elder Scroll games are single player rpgs. Elder Scrolls Online is a MMORPG. How is them adding PvP to non-pvp games and making it so people just cant walk around and grief other players fun ruining something that wasn't in the franchise to begin with.
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    Originally posted by Vembumees
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    And for the record I am not a PVP first player, I am a crafter....

     

    There are 4 Types of players in MMO's PvPers, PvEers, Crafters, and Noobs!

    PvPers are the black sheep of the MMO world they get crapped on regularly, its falsely believed they are this overwhelming minority group that plays MMO's when infact there not!!!  No they are waiting, playing single player games, playing silly games, playing everygame that gets released hoping for the return of Ultima Online or Shadowbane!!!

     

    What they get is Darkfall and Mortal Online, small studio's who try hard but dont have the money to deliver!

     

    Crafters like myself and also greatly upset with the state of the MMO world as most MMO's put crafting as an after thought!  We tend to play PvP titles more then PvE titles because PvP titles have a better economy, they die they need gear the economy isnt out of kilter like the PvE safe games the land of Carebears where the carebears never die have the greatest gear ever forever because they never risk it!

     

    PvEers the mass's or so its thought, the kids generation Easy mode!  They get all the tops titles, good graphics etc....  They are the target audience  this group of players that play a few weeks and quit out of boredom, why again do companys cater to this huge ADD demographic when the more mature player base, the more loyal player base, the ones more likely to shell out the cash are NOT PvEers....

     

    And then the noobs are of little consequence they loged on once to see what an MMO is and never log back on again! 

     

     

    I don't know all the facts about the current state of gaming.  I see the trends and agree and disagree with some of them, but one thing I do know for a fact and that is that PvPers and Crafters are a minoirty. 

    I seriously have been reading a lot of shit in these forums, but I just logged in just to reply you that you have just made the most false statement I've read in a while. I'm not even going to argue or discuss the matter and enlighten you of the 2013 market, but since your experience seems to be only few selected games, let me tell you. In 2013 PvP games are controlling the mmo market. There are more active players playing PvP games right now than any other games. Just because few games like shitfall etc are not successful or in your themepark mmorpgs PvPers are minority, doesn't mean that PvPers are the minority, it just means the game is unappealing or just trash. In terms of the mmo market, at this point, PvE is the minority. Sad truth which most of the people living in the past can't accept or see, because they don't play enough. I'm not doing a discussion anyway, just wanted to reply since that statement really blew my mind. (Has nothing to do with elder scrolls, just was replying to the individual)

    I completely disagree.  I play a lot of MMOs, including PvP based ones and I do not see what you think you are seeing.

    image
  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    Well atleast it didnt bleed subs as fast as SWTOR did at its rate it wont make it anywhere near the length of time SWG did!

    1.7M down to less then 1M.... if that trend continues in a few months SWTOR will be at 1 sub!

    But Theamparks are the best model

    /Sarcasm

    So, SWTOR bled subs faster at launch, stablized at a vastly higher number, but we ignore that and just focus on the initial bleeding and imply it did worse?

    This obviously is going nowhere lol

    Of course because one stabilized as a free to play game while the other was pay to play to the end. SWG did not die because it was a bad game, it died because it got run into the ground by the SOE crew and their need for it to make more money sooner.

    CCP is the best example currently in existence for a good sandbox developer, they built the game they wanted to build, they launched it and they maintained the game which they built for nearly a decade now while improving on it in massive ways. This is what most sandbox games actually lacked: developers with the long term in mind.

    image
  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    Well atleast it didnt bleed subs as fast as SWTOR did at its rate it wont make it anywhere near the length of time SWG did!

    1.7M down to less then 1M.... if that trend continues in a few months SWTOR will be at 1 sub!

    But Theamparks are the best model

    /Sarcasm

    So, SWTOR bled subs faster at launch, stablized at a vastly higher number, but we ignore that and just focus on the initial bleeding and imply it did worse?

    This obviously is going nowhere lol

    Yea, I figured that out about jfoytek a few pages ago. You can not have a discussion with someone who uses emotion over logic. Perhaps he is just a lonely troll and we have all been feeding him. I really kind of hope so. If he truly believes what he posts thats pretty damn sad.

  • SirFubarSirFubar Member Posts: 397
    Originally posted by jfoytek

    I have played Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....  Forever I have journey thru the lands of Tamriel thinking just how awesome this game would be as an MMO....  And now that day is finally looming and I am horribly saddened!!!

     

    Knowing that another great title, has choosen the Carebear way, the dawning of the Themepark!  Star Trek Online, SWTOR and now ESO....  All steming from the birth of the themepark inside of the world of warcraft....  Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar. 

    This Mega server concept where you instance the whole world IS NOT a SANDBOX and cannot be acceptable by any true gamer, being a person who loves all facets of the game from crafting to PvE to PVP because it destroys PVP and allows the CAREBEAR to never stray into danger!  Thus  his reward comes with no risk and the game lacks the sharp edge of a knife and will grow stale and boring because the ultimate mob will always be another player!

    Trammel Ruined Ultima Online

    NGE Ruined Star Wars Galaxy's

    The Hype of WoW made Shadowbane a desert

    Darkfall was destroyed by poor customer relations

    And ESO will dead before it releases because of a failed concept "The Mega Server"

     

    And its a real shame because you have the Following, you have the graphics, you have the history, you have put in place an excellent craftining system, you have the money and the backing to make a AAA game but you chose the road of the Themepark a fad that is not wanted by anyone other then the CAREBEARS!!! 

    The carebear way lol this is a complete nonsense. Just because the game doesn't have open world PvP with ganking doesn't mean its carebear. IMHO, carebear are all the single player game you've played. Just like your playstyle of being a crafter, that is the most carebear way to play an MMO. You said yourself that you're not a PvP player 1st and you come here talking about how you think the game is supposedly made for carebears?? IMO, the people who gank other players are way more carebear than the ones who like a clean and balanced fight. They prefer the easy way of ganking a lowbie because they know they couldn't do anything against someone with similar skill/level. Also, Crafters and noobs are the same category to me.

    I'm glad that they don't add the griefing aka open world PvP in this game. Nothing good ever come out of it. If you can create an MMO where leveling and gear isnt game breaking in PvP and only the skill of the player matters, then yes open world PvP would be a good idea. There's nothing carebear about not wanting to be 1-2 shot by someone you clearly have no chances to win against, its just call being realistic. Carebear would be avoiding a fight you might win if you had the skill but flee from it because you're bad or just completely avoid any kind of PvP.

    In case you didn't know, WoW was never ever a sandbox. You don't seem to understand the difference between having an open world, game being a sandbox and an open world with PvP. 3 complete differents things.

     

  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323

    Of course because one stabilized as a free to play game while the other was pay to play to the end. SWG did not die because it was a bad game, it died because it got run into the ground by the SOE crew and their need for it to make more money sooner.

    CCP is the best example currently in existence for a good sandbox developer, they built the game they wanted to build, they launched it and they maintained the game which they built for nearly a decade now while improving on it in massive ways. This is what most sandbox games actually lacked: developers with the long term in mind.

    As much as I hate SOE if you don't think there was pressure on them from LA you are crazy. Star Wars is one of the most popular IP's in the world and that game had horrible numbers. It bled to death long before they closed it. It was a buggy mess from day one. A game with a much weaker IP destroyed them at launch. SWG was not a great game. It had some great concepts but sadly they never materialized in to anything solid.

    As far as EVE and CCP goes they didn't have to pay for their IP or answer to LA. CCP's expectations could be much lower. SOE didn't have the luxury of time. These days I don't think any MMO has that luxury. 

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Of course because one stabilized as a free to play game while the other was pay to play to the end. SWG did not die because it was a bad game, it died because it got run into the ground by the SOE crew and their need for it to make more money sooner.

    CCP is the best example currently in existence for a good sandbox developer, they built the game they wanted to build, they launched it and they maintained the game which they built for nearly a decade now while improving on it in massive ways. This is what most sandbox games actually lacked: developers with the long term in mind.

    As much as I hate SOE if you don't think there was pressure on them from LA you are crazy. Star Wars is one of the most popular IP's in the world and that game had horrible numbers. It bled to death long before they closed it. It was a buggy mess from day one. A game with a much weaker IP destroyed them at launch. SWG was not a great game. It had some great concepts but sadly they never materialized in to anything solid.

    As far as EVE and CCP goes they didn't have to pay for their IP or answer to LA. CCP's expectations could be much lower. SOE didn't have the luxury of time. These days I don't think any MMO has that luxury. 

    Actually there are quite allot that can afford that luxury because they're working on long term plans or even accept that they'll never make as much as WoW at peak (15 mil times 15$ per month... yeah I hate WoW for what it became after BC but it still had a massive number of players when it was still a serviceable game and not just IMVU with orcs and raiding).

    image
  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Of course because one stabilized as a free to play game while the other was pay to play to the end. SWG did not die because it was a bad game, it died because it got run into the ground by the SOE crew and their need for it to make more money sooner.

    CCP is the best example currently in existence for a good sandbox developer, they built the game they wanted to build, they launched it and they maintained the game which they built for nearly a decade now while improving on it in massive ways. This is what most sandbox games actually lacked: developers with the long term in mind.

    As much as I hate SOE if you don't think there was pressure on them from LA you are crazy. Star Wars is one of the most popular IP's in the world and that game had horrible numbers. It bled to death long before they closed it. It was a buggy mess from day one. A game with a much weaker IP destroyed them at launch. SWG was not a great game. It had some great concepts but sadly they never materialized in to anything solid.

    As far as EVE and CCP goes they didn't have to pay for their IP or answer to LA. CCP's expectations could be much lower. SOE didn't have the luxury of time. These days I don't think any MMO has that luxury. 

    Actually there are quite allot that can afford that luxury because they're working on long term plans or even accept that they'll never make as much as WoW at peak (15 mil times 15$ per month... yeah I hate WoW for what it became after BC but it still had a massive number of players when it was still a serviceable game and not just IMVU with orcs and raiding).

     

    The hating of WoW really doesn't matter. It is the facts that are important. The facts are WoW is still the big dog and will be until another Blizzard MMO comes out. At that point their playerbase will likely be fragmented and WoW's numbers will drop. It will still probably be a decade of complete and total domination. Love it or hate it this is how the industry is right now.

    The only games that are going to have the luxury of time will probably be some small Indy developer like CCP.  The games cost so much more now. We as players are far more demanding. This isn't 2003. The playerbase is not as forgiving as we once were. How long do you think a game that launches like SWG or AO would last today? Maybe a small developer with some really talented people could change the industry. You are not going to get anything new from a AAA studio with a fat budget to spend.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,606
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    Of course because one stabilized as a free to play game while the other was pay to play to the end. SWG did not die because it was a bad game, it died because it got run into the ground by the SOE crew and their need for it to make more money sooner.

    CCP is the best example currently in existence for a good sandbox developer, they built the game they wanted to build, they launched it and they maintained the game which they built for nearly a decade now while improving on it in massive ways. This is what most sandbox games actually lacked: developers with the long term in mind.

    As much as I hate SOE if you don't think there was pressure on them from LA you are crazy. Star Wars is one of the most popular IP's in the world and that game had horrible numbers. It bled to death long before they closed it. It was a buggy mess from day one. A game with a much weaker IP destroyed them at launch. SWG was not a great game. It had some great concepts but sadly they never materialized in to anything solid.

    As far as EVE and CCP goes they didn't have to pay for their IP or answer to LA. CCP's expectations could be much lower. SOE didn't have the luxury of time. These days I don't think any MMO has that luxury. 

    Actually there are quite allot that can afford that luxury because they're working on long term plans or even accept that they'll never make as much as WoW at peak (15 mil times 15$ per month... yeah I hate WoW for what it became after BC but it still had a massive number of players when it was still a serviceable game and not just IMVU with orcs and raiding).

     

    The hating of WoW really doesn't matter. It is the facts that are important. The facts are WoW is still the big dog and will be until another Blizzard MMO comes out. At that point their playerbase will likely be fragmented and WoW's numbers will drop. It will still probably be a decade of complete and total domination. Love it or hate it this is how the industry is right now.

    The only games that are going to have the luxury of time will probably be some small Indy developer like CCP.  The games cost so much more now. We as players are far more demanding. This isn't 2003. The playerbase is not as forgiving as we once were. How long do you think a game that launches like SWG or AO would last today? Maybe a small developer with some really talented people could change the industry. You are not going to get anything new from a AAA studio with a fat budget to spend.

    I agree about WoW but not with the rest. I think developers over the past few years have missed something key and thats why we have a lot of fails. 

    1. New features are awesome (like VO story) but they always take second place to combat and avatar driving

    2. Not enough focus of quality elder game. 

    Get a tripple A MMO focus on that and add modern twists and I think it could be a winner. A good game will get played. Will it beat WoW? I think only WoW can break WoW.

  • hammarushammarus Member UncommonPosts: 196

    Will the only metrics of a successful game be subscription numbers and or revenue numbers?  Granted, a company needs positive cash flow to stay in business.  Looking at CCP and  their success with EVE Online you have a game that after almost 10 years is still running, still played and still being innovative (look to  the Dust514 console game intertwined with EvE Online PC platform).  Must a game have over a million subs or make tens of millions?

     

    ESO doesn't need to follow any existing molds, themepark or sandbox or hybrid.  It just needs to be good.

  • LivnthedreamLivnthedream Member Posts: 555
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Must a game have over a million subs or make tens of millions?

    From an investor standpoint, yes. Otherwise why invest in an MMO? There are a number of other game types, and even other sectors they could put that money and walk away with much more profit.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,606
    Originally posted by hammarus

    Will the only metrics of a successful game be subscription numbers and or revenue numbers?  Granted, a company needs positive cash flow to stay in business.  Looking at CCP and  their success with EVE Online you have a game that after almost 10 years is still running, still played and still being innovative (look to  the Dust514 console game intertwined with EvE Online PC platform).  Must a game have over a million subs or make tens of millions?

     

    ESO doesn't need to follow any existing molds, themepark or sandbox or hybrid.  It just needs to be good.

    For players, subscritpions. For companies, revenue.

  • GreenHellGreenHell Member UncommonPosts: 1,323
     

    The hating of WoW really doesn't matter. It is the facts that are important. The facts are WoW is still the big dog and will be until another Blizzard MMO comes out. At that point their playerbase will likely be fragmented and WoW's numbers will drop. It will still probably be a decade of complete and total domination. Love it or hate it this is how the industry is right now.

    The only games that are going to have the luxury of time will probably be some small Indy developer like CCP.  The games cost so much more now. We as players are far more demanding. This isn't 2003. The playerbase is not as forgiving as we once were. How long do you think a game that launches like SWG or AO would last today? Maybe a small developer with some really talented people could change the industry. You are not going to get anything new from a AAA studio with a fat budget to spend.

    I agree about WoW but not with the rest. I think developers over the past few years have missed something key and thats why we have a lot of fails. 

    1. New features are awesome (like VO story) but they always take second place to combat and avatar driving

    2. Not enough focus of quality elder game. 

    Get a tripple A MMO focus on that and add modern twists and I think it could be a winner. A good game will get played. Will it beat WoW? I think only WoW can break WoW.

    I really dont know how you can disagree with any of the last part but thats cool. Different opinions I guess.

    I really believe we are way more demanding now because of WoW. We have set the standards pretty high and those standards are going to cost time and money. As we have seen just on these forums we are not forgiving. Not even for games that announce features that are not even close to being released. It is a different world now and I really don't believe you will see a Triple A studio take the risks that are needed to change the industry. Thats why I believe if and when the change comes it will be from some small studio.

    Now if you are not talking about a huge change than I agree with you. A Triple A studio that focuses more on the basics will have moderate success but in order for it to stand out it will need something special. If not it will end up like Rift. Im not bashing Rift. It's a solid game and they are making a profit. Hard to argue with success but there really isn't anything that makes it special.

  • BrownAleBrownAle Member Posts: 399

    Its the whole development process thats fail.  Port your look/idea/theme/lore into the standard template then scratch your heads as to why your totally awesome IP failed

     

    That is what Zenimax did here.  Yes theres always a twist on hte concept, usually sounds gamechaning on paper but plays far different.  Rift and the soul system is a great example of this.  Remember how awesome the soul system and the endless possiblities sounded...then it turned out most skills overlap in function and with GCD was pointless to use, other skills needed to be paired with a select few abilities in other trees to be usefull locking in the builds.  What ended up happening was a few builds worked well and everyone use them, typically one or two.  End result was that soul system was the same as the 3 skill trees were use to only presented differently.

     

    Now this game comes along the same beaten path as the rest.  Can a good story save it?  Probably not, everyones going to race to endgame for pvp.  Will pvp be good?  Well even if it is, just going to be the same RvR all over again with a 3rd faction.

  • 666murmur666666murmur666 Member UncommonPosts: 9
     The problem is that even if a small producer would somehow manage to raise enough funds (kickstarter, etc.) to launch a decent mmo that wouldn't be lackluster in any department, even if it would be a success, once they started making money, they would dumb down the game to make even more. It's hard arguing with this, since most of those who actually care about games end up buying them rather then relasing them or working on a concept. And we've had numerous examples of companies who were loyal to their playerbase and then turned a blind eye to what made said MMO special only so that they can amass more money. The only thing left to do, as someone before stated, is to produce your own mmo, but we all know where that will lead, 90% of the times. Either bug-infested 'ellholes or material that crumbles after it's 15 minutes of fame...
  • hammarushammarus Member UncommonPosts: 196
    There once was a time when games were created to be fun not make gobs and gobs of money.  I must be getting old or very jaded.
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