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Crafters and non-crafters.. Good idea??

starsky1starsky1 SwanseaPosts: 2Member

First of all I would like to say that as an ex-DAOC player I am very excited about CU. For years after I stopped playing I used to find myself regularly typing 'DAOC 2' into google in the vain hope that one day a game with even a slight semblance of the original would be announced to the world. Thankfully I think my wait is over, but I'd just like to ask your opinions on one issue I had in respect of what's been said about crafting to date.

Foundational Principle 7 relates to crafting and Mark revealed the following:

"players of CU will be able to create a “crafting-class” character with separate crafting-based ability and skill leveling tracks."

And -

"Non-crafter classes are limited to the journeyman track while players who choose to play crafters can pursue the master track and then, if they so choose, the artisan track."

My question is - 'Why is it preferable to make high-end crafting inaccessible to combat classes?' or, just as importantly - 'Why is it preferable to make high-end combat inaccessible to crafters?'

Can we really expect ordinary players to buy the game and think 'I don't want to fight at all. I want to be crafter 100% of the time, and I accept the fact that i'll never be able to swing the axes I make (or at least never swing the axes I make with as much skill as the people who buy my axes)?'

On the other side of the coin I understand that fostering a sense of community is also one of the main goals of this game, and I can see how the separation of combat classes and non-combat classes would facilitate the need to work together. I just don't see how simply switching between a main combat character and a crafter character would be the best way to go about this. 

I also appreciate that CU may make crafting just as fun as RvR - You never know!

Thoughts please! 

 

 

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Comments

  • EllyaEllya leylandPosts: 99Member

    I would think that many people will create more than one character. I'm fine with a fighter being a fighter and a crafter being a crafter. 

    Depending on my mood, I would log in to fight , or I would log in to craft. 

    No more juggling inventory space to make room for both fighting stuff and crafting stuff!  Hurray!

    It's about time a game gave you the option to make a non-combat class and still progress :)

  • LokeroLokero Posts: 374Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ellya

     

    It's about time a game gave you the option to make a non-combat class and still progress :)

    A crafting class sounds nice to me, assuming all of the ingredients don't come specifically as combat drops ;)  That would be counter-productive.  I, personally, find the typical MMO trend of "everyone is a master crafter" to be fairly dumb, and it makes crafting feel pretty worthless and unsustainable.  So, segregating them seems like a good idea to me.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    Yeah it goes in pair with FP #4 (Choice matters) and FP#9 (forced socialisation).

    First, regarding the forced socialisation, i think its pretty understandable that i.e. CSE dont want lets say a warrior to be able to craft everything he'd need to fight. they want us to NEED to rely on each other. and i can easily see some good secondary effects from this (but no use bringing them here now)

    second, like MJ mentionned, you wouldnt be able, to be efficient in both RvR combat and crafting ((unless you play 16 hours per day i assume).

    it also be only a matter of character progression, as it might be impossible to have enough "points of progression" to be able to apply them in both lines of progression.

    that would go with the FP#4 (choice matters).

    But those are only assumptions as we dont know alot more than the FPs, but putting them all together can give us a good idea for a few things.

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Probably a design decision made to promote true interdepedency and thus realm pride. It is quite evident that Mark doesn't want to make a game full of hybrids that can do everything. He and CSE want players to create meaningful communities based on game mechanics that both facilitate and encourage such.

    Of course, I am just some dude on the interwebz, so I will provide a very large grain of salt to anyone who reads this.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon

    Yeah, as long as you can make multiple characters on the same account, I don't see it being all that different than crating in your typical MMORPG right now. The only difference is that you have to log out and then back in to get your crafting up.

     

    Which begs the question, why would you make a crafting-only class if the only difference is that you have to log out? Why not just have separate crafting levels for the combat players? Why not make it possible for combat characters to entirely level their crafting side without progressing at all in combat? 

     

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I don't think it does any damage either. Just log in and log out to craft.

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    I truly believe the answer is, yes.  I posted about a month ago regarding potentially stirring ideas that CSE could use in some form or fashion; one of them was the introduction to non-combat "classes" or simply implement it like Runes of Magic did with their character classes.  Your character has two different "classes" but may only have one active at a time - in order to change, the player had to visit a class NPC to switch between individual classes.

    Nonetheless, yes; CU will likely have a very dynamic meta-game that involves RvR and micro-economy features like EVE.

    Here's the link:  http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5586981#5586981

    Runes of Magic: Dual Class System http://runesofmagic.gamepedia.com/Dual_Class_System

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

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  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

    Yeah it goes in pair with FP #4 (Choice matters) and FP#9 (forced socialisation).

    First, regarding the forced socialisation, i think its pretty understandable that i.e. CSE dont want lets say a warrior to be able to craft everything he'd need to fight. they want us to NEED to rely on each other. and i can easily see some good secondary effects from this (but no use bringing them here now)

    But can't you just log out to your crafter and make all the stuff for your warrior on another character?

    second, like MJ mentionned, you wouldnt be able, to be efficient in both RvR combat and crafting ((unless you play 16 hours per day i assume).

    Are you implying you are only going to be allowed to use one character per server or whatever and if you choose NOT to do crafting, you will never be able to craft?

    it also be only a matter of character progression, as it might be impossible to have enough "points of progression" to be able to apply them in both lines of progression.

    Could you not just separate the two systems with a single character?

    that would go with the FP#4 (choice matters).

    But those are only assumptions as we dont know alot more than the FPs, but putting them all together can give us a good idea for a few things.

     

  • EllyaEllya leylandPosts: 99Member
    Originally posted by colddog04

    Yeah, as long as you can make multiple characters on the same account, I don't see it being all that different than crating in your typical MMORPG right now. The only difference is that you have to log out and then back in to get your crafting up.

     

    Which begs the question, why would you make a crafting-only class if the only difference is that you have to log out? Why not just have separate crafting levels for the combat players? Why not make it possible for combat characters to entirely level their crafting side without progressing at all in combat? 

     

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I don't think it does any damage either. Just log in and log out to craft.

    I think it might be about the identity  of your character.  Certain characters will be known as crafters, or as fighters. 

    Say.. ColdDog the Swordsmith.  People will know that ColdDog is the man to go to for swords. They won't have to wait until he's back from a keep raid. He'll usually be found in his forge., making swords. :)

    Actually it would be pretty cool if people had to go back to a crafter for repairs. No more clicking on the general vendor. Oh no.. leave your sword with ColdDog for a couple of hours and he'll make it good as new! Hope you have a spare.... :)

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by colddog04

    Yeah, as long as you can make multiple characters on the same account, I don't see it being all that different than crating in your typical MMORPG right now. The only difference is that you have to log out and then back in to get your crafting up.

     

    Which begs the question, why would you make a crafting-only class if the only difference is that you have to log out? Why not just have separate crafting levels for the combat players? Why not make it possible for combat characters to entirely level their crafting side without progressing at all in combat? 

     

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I don't think it does any damage either. Just log in and log out to craft.

    to force players to socialise, i think its pretty understandable that i.e. CSE dont want lets say a warrior to be able to craft everything he'd need to fight. they want us to NEED to rely on each other. and i can easily see some good secondary effects from this (but no use bringing them here now)

    second, maybe you wouldnt be able to be efficient in both RvR combat and crafting ((unless you play 16 hours per day i assume), or maybe simply because you wouldnt be able to get enough progression points to become high level in both (this is an assumption, as we dont know yet how progression will work)

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ellya
    Originally posted by colddog04

    Yeah, as long as you can make multiple characters on the same account, I don't see it being all that different than crating in your typical MMORPG right now. The only difference is that you have to log out and then back in to get your crafting up.

     

    Which begs the question, why would you make a crafting-only class if the only difference is that you have to log out? Why not just have separate crafting levels for the combat players? Why not make it possible for combat characters to entirely level their crafting side without progressing at all in combat? 

     

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I don't think it does any damage either. Just log in and log out to craft.

    I think it might be about the identity  of your character.  Certain characters will be known as crafters, or as fighters. 

    Say.. ColdDog the Swordsmith.  People will know that ColdDog is the man to go to for swords. They won't have to wait until he's back from a keep raid. He'll usually be found in his forge., making swords. :)

    I see that. It's just...

     

    If I am on my combat character, then I am not in my forge on my crafting character. I would actually have to just sit on my crafter in order to take orders and whatnot.

     

    Having it on a single character would make it much easier for people to get a hold of you and, I think, add to your noteriety as a crafter perhaps even more than the first scenario.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Also, keep in mind that it's VERY probable that crafters will have a role to play in RvR beyond just making stuff. There are so many possibilities with seige weaponry, supply trains, outpost maintainence, creature breeding, etc.... I highly doubt crafters will just be spamming the city chat in Tir Na Nog grinding out levels.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
    Originally posted by colddog04

    Yeah, as long as you can make multiple characters on the same account, I don't see it being all that different than crating in your typical MMORPG right now. The only difference is that you have to log out and then back in to get your crafting up.

     

    Which begs the question, why would you make a crafting-only class if the only difference is that you have to log out? Why not just have separate crafting levels for the combat players? Why not make it possible for combat characters to entirely level their crafting side without progressing at all in combat? 

     

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I don't think it does any damage either. Just log in and log out to craft.

    to force players to socialise, i think its pretty understandable that i.e. CSE dont want lets say a warrior to be able to craft everything he'd need to fight. they want us to NEED to rely on each other. and i can easily see some good secondary effects from this (but no use bringing them here now)

    But a warrior CAN craft everything he wants. He just has to log onto a different character.

    second, maybe you wouldnt be able to be efficient in both RvR combat and crafting ((unless you play 16 hours per day i assume), or maybe simply because you wouldnt be able to get enough progression points to become high level in both (this is an assumption, as we dont know yet how progression will work)

    You can always choose to do one activity more often than the other on a single character. I don't see what the amount of time spent on crafting or RvR has to do with it.

    I'm not against it as I feel like it will be very similar to how most games have it set up right now (not the details, but that you can craft anything with enough alts). The only difference is that you have to log out.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PerfArt
    Also, keep in mind that it's VERY probable that crafters will have a role to play in RvR beyond just making stuff. There are so many possibilities with seige weaponry, supply trains, outpost maintainence, creature breeding, etc.... I highly doubt crafters will just be spamming the city chat in Tir Na Nog grinding out levels.

    That does sound interesting. I remember reading something about RvR missions they could undertake. I guess in the end we just need to know more.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

    Yeah it goes in pair with FP #4 (Choice matters) and FP#9 (forced socialisation).

    First, regarding the forced socialisation, i think its pretty understandable that i.e. CSE dont want lets say a warrior to be able to craft everything he'd need to fight. they want us to NEED to rely on each other. and i can easily see some good secondary effects from this (but no use bringing them here now)

    But can't you just log out to your crafter and make all the stuff for your warrior on another character?

    You could, but you probably still need someone to transfer the items. (or maybe not if there is mailbox system like WAR had).

    second, like MJ mentionned, you wouldnt be able, to be efficient in both RvR combat and crafting ((unless you play 16 hours per day i assume).

    Are you implying you are only going to be allowed to use one character per server or whatever and if you choose NOT to do crafting, you will never be able to craft?

    No i'm pretty sure you will have more than one character slot per server

    it also be only a matter of character progression, as it might be impossible to have enough "points of progression" to be able to apply them in both lines of progression.

    Could you not just separate the two systems with a single character?

    yeah they could do it that way.

    but to answer your 3 questions there,, you have to take all the ideas that CSE wants for the game as a whole, not as separate issues. if each character can do EVERYTHING they need to advance, the CHOICE MATTERS and FORCED SOCIALISATION would mean nothing.  So everything they want to implement have to follow all the FPs, otherwise it could lead to results that they dont want. i.e. if they want CHOICE MATTERS to work, but they would allow little to no personalisation at character creation, it wouldnt make sense.

    that would go with the FP#4 (choice matters).

    But those are only assumptions as we dont know alot more than the FPs, but putting them all together can give us a good idea for a few things.

     

     

     

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • LokeroLokero Posts: 374Member Uncommon

    2 Points I see:

    1. I think the dedicated crafters will be able to shine more with this system.

    2. The folks who really aren't that interested in crafting in these games won't feel like they have to do so just because they can. Alot of people have very little interest in crafting, and only do it to complete their character's skills(read: min-maxing).

     

    I think alot of typical players who aren't that into tradeskills will simply not bother to create an alt just to craft with, thereby allowing the folks who are really interested in it to feel more useful and appreciated for their skills.

    Overall, you will have way less folks crafting crap just because they have the goods and everyone has maxed crafting.

     

    That's the way I see it, anyhow.  It's really a win-win on both sides, imo.  It frees the combat-focused from feeling like they have to do trades, and it gives the crafting-focused a nice niche in the community.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Good points, Lockero.

    My only real concern is attractinh a large enough population of crafters to a primarily-RvR game. I forsee far more combatants than crafters, but then again I have no idea what crafting options there will be.

    I do hope CSE involves crafters in RvR directly somehow.
  • starsky1starsky1 SwanseaPosts: 2Member

    Thanks for your thoughts. I'd just like to add -

    In FP 11 Mark says "my goal is to implement a crafting system where the crafters are putting in the same amount of time into crafting as the RvRers are spending in combat..."

    Now in combat we've heard that swinging a sword will increase associated attributes and skills in a way that makes the player almost passively specialise into being a melee class.

    Taking that principle a step further, would it not make sense to let the player who spends all his time crafting to naturally progress down that path, rather than making him choose from the very beginning that he is a crafter? Presumably if he spent his time making swords instead of swinging them then he would not be very good at combat anyway. In other words, the best combat players would naturally not be the best crafters, and vice versa. Why take away the freedom to choose? - and if a player does spend 16 hours a day juggling crafting and combat - where's the harm in that? 

    However, I'm also intrigued by the level strategy that could come from a separation of crafters and non-crafters. Would crafters need an escort to a recently won forge, for example? These are the things I can't wait to find out! 

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Starsky1: I think escorting/protecting crafters is going to be a fundamental gameplay mechanic. In a player-driven economy within an almost purely RvR game, it's kind of inevitable.

    I would also (and i've said this before here) like to see certain crafters be better at operating the seige weaponry they create. Adds a whole new dynamic that could be awesome.
  • WazlukWazluk Killeen, TXPosts: 159Member
    They also mentioned having skill decay, although they haven't decided how severe it'll be. If they make crafting skills decay over time if not being actively used (like a alt crafter) it'll really allow the full time crafters to stand out as master crafters of their realms.

    So making a separate character might make it harder to juggle keeping a combat toon and a crafter toon from both suffering skill decay. Thus making it harder to reach and maintain master crafter.

    Just a thought.

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  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I like having 2 distinctly different characters. My fighter is always a typical angry warrior type. My crafter is usually an eccentric tailor that loves making shady deals.

  • RealLifeGobboRealLifeGobbo Yorktown, VAPosts: 218Member
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    I think MJ is right in having classes that are exclusively for crafting, since it should take time to be a Master Crafter, not buy all your supplies from the auction house and 2 hours later... DING! Master Crafter.  These characters should be sought after and held at high esteem, just like other players who are good at RvR or great leaders of a large raid on some event, such as slaying a dragon.

     

    I do admit, I may not be too excited about not having an auction house system, but if there are places were crafters can sell their goods through a vendor, that wouldn't be too bad. (Thinking the DAoC player housing area).  I got lost a few times while trying to find some of the vendors though, but luckily you could find places using the Herald.  I also like a lot of the markers on the compass, like Skyrim, Fallouts, Borderlands, etc, but I believe they already said that they aren't going to do that, which I have mixed feeling about, but I understand why--a chance to get lost.  There were times in DAoC that happened with the group I was with and sometimes made things comical, while other times annoying.  It also forced you have to memorize the different lands.

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  • grimjakkgrimjakk Tumwater, WAPosts: 192Member
    Originally posted by PerfArt
    Starsky1: I think escorting/protecting crafters is going to be a fundamental gameplay mechanic. In a player-driven economy within an almost purely RvR game, it's kind of inevitable.
    I would also (and i've said this before here) like to see certain crafters be better at operating the seige weaponry they create. Adds a whole new dynamic that could be awesome.

    This. 

    Especially if, for example, crafters were needed to harvest the greatest quantiy of the highest quality resources from a captured facility.  Say that the Midgard forces finally captured that 99 quality iron mine the Tuatha have been sitting on... but Journeymen crafters won't get more than a wheelbarrow full of low quality ore out of there before the Tuatha take it back. 

    Assembling and operating siege engines would be a perfectly logical reason to have the crafters/engineers at the front, ready to repair defenses or exploit captured resources.

  • BordogBordog Pullman, WAPosts: 34Member

    The OP brings up some good points. I am glad there will be seperate tracks myself. I hope it helps create a sort of a demand and supply economy. I would imagine that creating a crafter to make items for your (insert class here) is possible. But I'm guessing there may be some level of specializing and if you were to create a crafter for each of your alts then you would quickly run out of character slots. Not to mention if there is specialization then you probably wont be able to craft everything possible for your (insert class here).

    I hope that crafters (and I get a sense it will be like this) will be a part of end-game combat, such as siege engine and building crafters in RvR. While they may not be in the thick of combat, they are definately necessary for a successful venture into enemy territory or even their own castles and keeps. 

    Maybe I will feel differently after I start playing a crafter-tracked character, but the idea really appeals to me.

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  • WazlukWazluk Killeen, TXPosts: 159Member

    Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo
     

    I do admit, I may not be too excited about not having an auction house system, but if there are places were crafters can sell their goods through a vendor, that wouldn't be too bad. (Thinking the DAoC player housing area).  I got lost a few times while trying to find some of the vendors though, but luckily you could find places using the Herald.  I also like a lot of the markers on the compass, like Skyrim, Fallouts, Borderlands, etc, but I believe they already said that they aren't going to do that, which I have mixed feeling about, but I understand why--a chance to get lost.  There were times in DAoC that happened with the group I was with and sometimes made things comical, while other times annoying.  It also forced you have to memorize the different lands.

    No AH could also be elevated a little if they list top crafters for your server/realm on their Herald type site(they mentioned they’ll have).  It’d make it easier for people to find crafters without spamming chats with “LF crafter!!!”

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  • kaltahnkaltahn Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 31Member

    I'm going to echo the sentiments of previous comments - there's too little information right now to see where they plan to go with crafting classes.

    All we do know is that they plan on 1) implementing a robust crafting system that's more than the trusty-crusty "combine" system, 2) that crafters will be as essential to RvR effort as the combat classes, and 3) they haven't finished designing the nuts and bolts of the crafting system, but they do know they want it to be fun. 

    That being said, I hypothesize that the designers fully intend on making Master Crafters take huge risks for huge rewards by forcing them into dangerous RvR territories to "gather high quality materials" or "forge magical rings in the Volcano Forge" -- and that will be another point of Forced Socialization.  What will make the crafter's job fun is figuring out how much risk is involved trying to get to a resource deep in enemy-controlled territory, and how much brute he needs to hire or beg for in order to lessen that risk.  I could easily see entire guilds and alliances dedicated to contracting out bodyguard services for crafting missions.

    I doubt very much that most crafters will sit idly in a shop, peddling their wares; player vendors could more or less take care of that.  Plus... It's not fun.  The whole reason why Auction Houses (or any iteration of that system) were invented is because people don't typically like sitting in one spot, not enjoying the lovely pixellated world around them.  To me, a fun crafting system means you have to have an element of danger (and not the simulated, sterile 'danger' of exploding combines or loss of materials), an element of community, and an element of unpredictablity.

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