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Poll: Graphics or Gameplay ;)

TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless ColumnistM, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

I couldn't resist and I did not leave room for a gray area, black or white, no middle ground, one or the other. If you had to pick...

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Comments

  • DeanMalincoDeanMalinco overland park, KSPosts: 26Member
    i voted but...not sure of the point of this poll. CSE has already posted their stance on this...
  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Your poll and thread are bad. The answer is both, especially if you are attempting to be even a mild success.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Your poll and thread are bad. The answer is both, especially if you are attempting to be even a mild success.

    Minecraft, D3, LOL and even Tetris or Angry birds might think otherwise...

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    It's not an either/or thing. Nobody or very few are going to play a game that looks amazing but has terrible gameplay for very long. But neither are they going to want to pay a monthly sub for something that looks like it was released in 2001. CU needs to play something like DAOC did before TOA and look something like DAOC or WAR might have if they had gotten a few more expansions with graphics engine upgrades.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

     


    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Your poll and thread are bad. The answer is both, especially if you are attempting to be even a mild success.

     

    Minecraft, D3, LOL and even Tetris or Angry birds might think otherwise...

    Minecraft and Tetris both fill roles (and needs) that no other game has been able to fill. D3 and LoL both have solid graphics. A better "attempt" to refute my argument would be to point to something like Dwarf Fortress, but even that is a really tough sell since its really not overly successful, and has to compete with a number of other games that do similar things many times better, like Civilization, or Sim City. Even bowing into the indy scene you can hit on titles like FTL, but again, its graphics are far from bad. A bigger peice of this puzzle of course is aesthetics vs graphics.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by meddyck
    It's not an either/or thing. Nobody or very few are going to play a game that looks amazing but has terrible gameplay for very long. But neither are they going to want to pay a monthly sub for something that looks like it was released in 2001. CU needs to play something like DAOC did before TOA and look something like DAOC or WAR might have if they had gotten a few more expansions with graphics engine upgrades.

    You "true" players of Daoc really need to get off this "must be pre toa" rant. Tao did not lose them any customers.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member

    I'm blown away.  At the time of this posting, 16 votes are for Gameplay while 0 are for Graphics.  Have we FINALLY found something that unites the entire Camelot Unchained community?

    SHUT THE FRONT DOOR.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • Plastic-MetalPlastic-Metal Highland Heights, KYPosts: 405Member
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by meddyck
    It's not an either/or thing. Nobody or very few are going to play a game that looks amazing but has terrible gameplay for very long. But neither are they going to want to pay a monthly sub for something that looks like it was released in 2001. CU needs to play something like DAOC did before TOA and look something like DAOC or WAR might have if they had gotten a few more expansions with graphics engine upgrades.

    You "true" players of Daoc really need to get off this "must be pre toa" rant. Tao did not lose them any customers.

    Actually, as much as I love DAoC... ToA was an absolute disaster for a lot of players and ended up ruining the experience for a lot of gamers until the release of classic servers.

    If you could go back and look at historical trending tools for DAoC... besides nerfing left axe, ToA probably had the second highest moan fest attached to it.  Maybe Bonedancers.. then ToA, either way, ToA caused a lot of people grief.

    My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

    image

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Xobdnas   Originally posted by jimdandy26 Your poll and thread are bad. The answer is both, especially if you are attempting to be even a mild success.
      Minecraft, D3, LOL and even Tetris or Angry birds might think otherwise...
    Minecraft and Tetris both fill roles (and needs) that no other game has been able to fill. D3 and LoL both have solid graphics. A better "attempt" to refute my argument would be to point to something like Dwarf Fortress, but even that is a really tough sell since its really not overly successful, and has to compete with a number of other games that do similar things many times better, like Civilization, or Sim City. Even bowing into the indy scene you can hit on titles like FTL, but again, its graphics are far from bad. A bigger peice of this puzzle of course is aesthetics vs graphics.

    And just like Minecraft and Tetris, CU is filling the RVR niche so it's graphics matter less than it's gameplay. I'm glad we can agree on something.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
    I'm blown away.  At the time of this posting, 16 votes are for Gameplay while 0 are for Graphics.  Have we FINALLY found something that unites the entire Camelot Unchained community?SHUT THE FRONT DOOR.

    I'm pretty shocked myself, and pretty happy. CU community ftw!

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Hardcore niche mmorpg. No big surprises here.
  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    And just like Minecraft and Tetris, CU is filling the RVR niche so it's graphics matter less than it's gameplay. I'm glad we can agree on something.

    What? Are you blind? It still has competition from Daoc, Eso, and to a lesser extent War and company. That is far from a "first" time niche.

     

    Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

    Actually, as much as I love DAoC... ToA was an absolute disaster for a lot of players and ended up ruining the experience for a lot of gamers until the release of classic servers.

    If you could go back and look at historical trending tools for DAoC... besides nerfing left axe, ToA probably had the second highest moan fest attached to it.  Maybe Bonedancers.. then ToA, either way, ToA caused a lot of people grief.

    Whining is generally meaningless though. Action speaks much louder than words, and if it caused actual problems there would have been a massive loss of customers, much like what happened earlier in its life cycle, and then with WoW. Its the very reason why many companies continue to "sell power" even though the crying over p2w is huge.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    Originally posted by Xobdnas And just like Minecraft and Tetris, CU is filling the RVR niche so it's graphics matter less than it's gameplay. I'm glad we can agree on something.What? Are you blind? It still has competition from Daoc, Eso, and to a lesser extent War and company. That is far from a "first" time niche.

      Originally posted by Plastic-Metal Actually, as much as I love DAoC... ToA was an absolute disaster for a lot of players and ended up ruining the experience for a lot of gamers until the release of classic servers. If you could go back and look at historical trending tools for DAoC... besides nerfing left axe, ToA probably had the second highest moan fest attached to it.  Maybe Bonedancers.. then ToA, either way, ToA caused a lot of people grief.


    Whining is generally meaningless though. Action speaks much louder than words, and if it caused actual problems there would have been a massive loss of customers, much like what happened earlier in its life cycle, and then with WoW. Its the very reason why many companies continue to "sell power" even though the crying over p2w is huge.

    Daoc, Eso, and to a lesser extent War and company

    ESO is not a PVP game. It's a hand holding Diet Cola PVP game and it's main stream, not niche. DAOC is very old and most of it's players (based on the anitidietal evidence I've gathered) would love to jump ship to a sequel. WAR is almost dead, it doesn't count and it wasn't niche either.

    Do you understand what a niche game is?

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    Daoc, Eso, and to a lesser extent War and company

    ESO is not a PVP game. It's a hand holding Diet Cola PVP game and it's main stream, not niche. DAOC is very old and most of it's players (based on the anitidietal evidence I've gathered) would love to jump ship to a sequel. WAR is almost dead, it doesn't count and it wasn't niche either.

    Do you understand what a niche game it?

    Oh indeed. I am also well aware that based on the sheer amount of press the developer has stirred up its unlikely to actually be so. Its rather rare that any developer sets out to build an actual niche game. Even outside of the money aspect there is also the want for as many people as possible experience your work. If this was something he was setting out to create for just himself, he would have done it without all of this excellent marketing rigamarole.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,766Member Uncommon

    i wont vote because theres not a BOTH option. Games should not be limited to either good gameplay or good graphics. Technology is advanced enough to have both in the same game. To me both good graphics and good gameplay are very important. Gameplay is a bit more important just because graphic visuals is a broader term so you dont need the most realistic graphics in order to have good graphics. All you need is quality in your graphics to make them good.

     

    So yeah, give me both good gameplay and quality graphics or dont give me a game. Even a 2D game can have high quality graphics and not be realistic. Some people also think realism = good graphics, which is wrong.

    image
  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jimdandy26

    Originally posted by Xobdnas Daoc, Eso, and to a lesser extent War and company ESO is not a PVP game. It's a hand holding Diet Cola PVP game and it's main stream, not niche. DAOC is very old and most of it's players (based on the anitidietal evidence I've gathered) would love to jump ship to a sequel. WAR is almost dead, it doesn't count and it wasn't niche either. Do you understand what a niche game it?
    Oh indeed. I am also well aware that based on the sheer amount of press the developer has stirred up its unlikely to actually be so. Its rather rare that any developer sets out to build an actual niche game. Even outside of the money aspect there is also the want for as many people as possible experience your work. If this was something he was setting out to create for just himself, he would have done it without all of this excellent marketing rigamarole.

    Now your just grasping at straws. Apparently you somehow know what MJ is thinking about people "experiencing his work"? I got news for you, he already did that and didn't like how it ended up. Since when are MMORPG, Reddit, and other MMO exclusive sites main stream advertising? If he wanted that he would be all over the larger sites that cover general gaming, not MMO specific sites. Want some more "evidence" that it is niche? Read or listen to any of his interviews. He is making many of his decisions in spite of what the majority of players would want. He is putting things in CU that the majority would not like. And he is putting those things in because the minority of old school MMO players want them. That makes it niche.

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon

    I can't stand games that blow thier budget just to get super graphics.  Having awesome, realistic, face-melting graphics has many faults and disadvantages to it.  For one, it limits your potential playerbase.  These days, you have people playing on ever older machines.  Not very many people are going to invest $1000 just to play a single game.  Secondly,  graphics get dated, no matter how great they are.  Third, they effect gameplay.  If you're playing on a medium machine that is able to play the game, you will get things like lower framerates, which in most cases means you have things popping up right in front of you, or your attacks are delayed, or your attacks are even missed.  TSW and GW2 are good examples of this, my laptop is exceeds the minimum specs, however, when playing the game it feels choppy.  TSW I had to sit there and just button mash so my attacks would even register.

     

    If you take a look at the most succesful MMOs of all time you'll see that almost none of them focused on graphics. WoW, Blizzard focused on gameplay over graphics.  While thier graphics aren't bad, they're not the best.  EQ, The graphics were pretty good for thier time, but there were many other games out at that time that killed thier graphics.  DAoC,  before they updated them, the graphics were horrible when compared to games of the same era.  Even after the graphics update they still were dated.  The list goes on and on.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,911Member Uncommon

    I'm pleased to see any thread that still holds gameplay as a matter of importance.

     

    I'm okay with the "both" idea also.  In a near perfect game, both would exist.  I don't see them as mutually exclusive.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • infiiinfii asjdhas, AZPosts: 9Member

    Over the years I learned that graphics are kind of 'in the way' of good gameplay.

    I enjoyed almost every new game with mediocre graphics, while I didn't even finish most games with awesome graphics.

     

    I don't know where this follows from - just an experience I personally made.

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member

    The gameplay needs to be smooth and not clunky or laggy, that just is bad, but i dont think anyway of us want to be looking at triangle on our screen...

    so id say this:
    Vindicus

    is acceptable as a minimum.

    Aion graphics, but playable are preferred.

    WAR, SWTOR, WOW, anything cell shaded or "cartoony" isnt. I think games that go for that real grit sorta look like darkfall or mortal online also look equally bad, they're trying to hard, its a game, looking fake is fine....just not too fake...


    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Your poll and thread are bad. The answer is both, especially if you are attempting to be even a mild success.

     But the answer of both doesn't require any thought.  The question was one to promote use of a person's brain.  Can you choose?

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon

    I chose gameplay even though that I think graphics are also very important. But first and foremost you need good gameplay in a game, than you make it look pretty. You could really have a great game but if it looks like crap your not going to pull much of a crowd and alot of the reviews will say it looks dated. Angry birds, Minecraft, pac-man, pong all didnt need dx11 to be a good game but we arent talking about those types of games here. We are talking about an MMORPG.

    For MMORPG that is focusing on only RvR I would expect it to look pretty damn good since there isnt that much else you have to focus on here. Reading through the new FP #12 has me curious as too how bad this thing is going to look now since they are down playing graphics, which has me kind of concerned.

     

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by meddyck
    It's not an either/or thing. Nobody or very few are going to play a game that looks amazing but has terrible gameplay for very long. But neither are they going to want to pay a monthly sub for something that looks like it was released in 2001. CU needs to play something like DAOC did before TOA and look something like DAOC or WAR might have if they had gotten a few more expansions with graphics engine upgrades.

    You "true" players of Daoc really need to get off this "must be pre toa" rant. Tao did not lose them any customers.

    What I had in mind when I said CU should play like DAOC before TOA was that TOA added a huge amount of required PvE beyond leveling to 50 that everybody needed to do on every character to be competitive in RvR. CU has no PvE or item drops, so it will be even better than early DAOC for players who just want to RvR.

    Without rehashing the endless debate about TOA's impact on DAOC, you are clearly and obviously wrong that TOA didn't lose DAOC "any" customers. There were some perhaps even many people who did leave DAOC because of TOA. You only have to read any number of threads on this forum, the DAOC forum, etc. to see people mentioning how they quit DAOC after TOA. I doubt very many if any players started playing DAOC for the first time specifically because of TOA. It was a net loss even if the effect was delayed somewhat until the next big MMO came out (WOW).

    There were some good things in TOA to be sure (abilities like Power Font, Cure Nearsight, Group Cure Disease, Speed Warp, Prescience Node, Bodyguard, increased power pool and healing, etc.). But the amount of required raiding, farming, and grinding it introduced was overall a huge negative. If TOA had been part of DAOC at release, I wouldn't have stuck with the game long enough to find out how great its RvR was.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Response c) necessary, the walking contradiction:

    "I said gameplay is more important, but I have departed from or chosen not to play games because of 'outdated' graphics."

    (DAoC, for example)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I couldn't resist and I did not leave room for a gray area, black or white, no middle ground, one or the other. If you had to pick...

    This is 2013, not 1991.  A game has to have both.

     

    Buuttt... There are games like Minecraft that have brilliant gameplay and the graphics are rudimentary.  I'm also a fan of retro games because of how they play.

    So, to answer:  Gameplay.

    image
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