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Defining the purpose of steath ; the first step (POLL inside)

BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

Edit #2: I suggested the same poll on jeuxonline (french site) and with the same choices for answer in the same order, here is the results :

1=  29 votes (19;08%)

2=  91 votes (59.87%)

3=  10 votes (6.58%)

4=  22 votes (14,47%)

 

Edit : Regarding the poll that follows, the choices offered are a bit confusing, and since i cannot modify the poll, use those explanations that are a bit clearer.

 

(1)purely scouting and "passive" actions,

(2) something a bit more "active" but not necessarly in combat (but could also have a few combat options)

(3) for combat purpose only.

(4) remains the same

 

It could end up being a bit of each too, but with the post that came right before the poll, i suggested some specific questions to help people have a more profound thought about stealth, rather than a simple "love or hate".

Sorry about the confusion

 

Before actually debating on how stealth should or should not be implemented, and how it should work, we need to know / decide / figure out what would be the purpose of stealthing. So we'd need to ask ourselves many questions before actually figuring out how stealth would work.

- would it be purely strategic ? sabotage, spying, scouting, traps etc.

- would it be for sone strategic hits ? specific assassination, no random target

- would it be to guard choke points ?

- or simply a bunch of "assassins" wandering, ganking everything they can ?

 

Then when we know why stealth should (or should not) be implemented, how to we proceed to not make it OPed, but still give it some good purpose :

- does it make more sense to give stealth to archer type class, melee type or caster type ?

- do we want stealth to be a pre-requisite for other skills ? i.e. line of skills than can ONLY be acquired if you have the stealth skill.

- do we block a line of skills if a player choose the line of skills with stealth in it ?

- do we want all skills from a character to be "castable" while in stealth ?

- do we put big cooldowns or skills that can be done while stealthed ?

- do we give stealth and destealth casting time ?

- do we make it possible to stealth with some conditions ? (i.e. near a structure, tree, rock etc) ?

 

When we decide what will be the purpose of stealth, then we can decide how to implement it, doing it the other way around would be the wrong way to go.

 

so lets discuss among us as to what purpose should stealth has in CU, if it is implemented.

 

Edit : Added "POLL inside" on title

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Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

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Comments

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member

    I'll try to answer to the questions as good as i can

     

    The goal of the game is to work together for our realm. Hence stealth shouldn't be used to play solo.

     

    If you want to play solo, because you simply don't have time to get in a group or you're not in the mood to talk with others, it would be nice to have a small map where you can quickly find enemies but with no real objectives, and maybe a slowed progression of your character.

     

    By stating that point, the stealth have now a strategic role, being spying on enemy forces, listening to their conversations or/and mute/mislead them, and scouting for breach in the structures or creating them.

     

    In order to create a need for them in structures battles, it would then be natural to have the sabotage and communications related skills be unlocked by the stealth skill.

     

    As for the type of class to have stealth, i was thinking about the crafting/housing classes. That would make sense for a war ingineer to know how to sabotage a siege weapon, for an architect to know how to weaken a wall and for an alchemist to know how to mess up with the oil supposed to burn the invaders.

     

    As to the way skills are used in or out of stealth, it would depend on the difficulty of doing each one to choose, i can't make a decision at that point.

     

    The conditions for stealth shouldn't be too important, you just need to cast an invisibility magic usable under a few conditions (not fighting for example)

     

    Well, after all that i found another way to use stealth with fighters classes, and that would be in group fights to directly attack a key member of the enemies (healer or dps), the best way for it not to be abused by soloers would be to have a class cast the stealth buff on another class that can take advantage of it. That way you can't complain about stealth zerger, as you would have the same result with a visible group with some of it's members hidden behind some bushes or trees.

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

    The goal of the game is to work together for our realm. Hence stealth shouldn't be used to play solo.

    If you want to play solo, because you simply don't have time to get in a group or you're not in the mood to talk with others, it would be nice to have a small map where you can quickly find enemies but with no real objectives, and maybe a slowed progression of your character.

    I think your concept of the game is profoundly wrong and the game will be very disappointing to me and many others if the developers agree with you and try to pigeonhole all players into only doing "for teh realm" activities. Yes doing things for your realm should be one of things you can do while playing. But progressing your toon while having fun just killing other players should also be a perfectly valid playstyle.

    That's why I support stealthing being in the game. It should be useful for scouting and picking or avoiding fights. What I don't want to see is assassins jumping you from stealth, taking half your health instantly, stunning you, poisoning you, debuffing your hit points and health regen, and killing you before the stun wears off. Stealth should be something that allows them (and archerse) to decide who and when to attack not something that turns other players into free rp dispensers for stealthers.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic GrenoblePosts: 222Member

    Well, there will be very limited fast travel options, so i assumed it would be hard to play solo without having a long travel to do each time you die.

     

    The only way to not have a player giving up the game because of that is to have a stealther, but if he can't be quite sure to have good chances to kill his target before somebody else add, or even to kill it at all,  then he will have to do a lot more waiting for an opportunity and i don't think it'll be very interesting.

     

    On the previous matter, each class will have a determined role, a healing class won't be dealing damage, and MJ said he wanted to create a realm, server, guild and other prides. It doesn't seems to be a game very solo friendly.

     

    I may be wrong, but MJ said :

    "These examples are literally the tip of the iceberg (hmm, iceberg, titanic, MMORPG, bad word association) when it comes to how we are going to encourage players within a realm to work together to accomplish their goals. [...] we want our players to get to know their realm-mates and by working together to in turn foster a true sense of community"

    (http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/, foundational principle 9 section)

     

    Dont forget than what we are supposed to be wanting is Realm Vs Realm, the reason we play this game isn't for soloing, it's for fighting in a group to beat another group.

     

    I am sure there are a lot of games out there where you can play alone and do duels, but i don't think Camelot Unchained will be the best game to do that.

     

    EDIT:

    I may have gotten ahead of myself with that post, i think you just meant than a good part of the game won't be taking structures or points of interest but just roaming around.

    In that case, it is better to have a group setup with a speed buff because of the limited fast travel, so i think playing stealth won't be that interesting, unless you have good ways to survive after a fight.

    That's why having a safer but still active work will be the best way to have interesting stealth without it being OPed

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon

    I think of stealth in a game as camouflage.  The use of surrounding elements to move somewhat unobserved.  This can then be used to move spies to tactical points in advance of any large scale military action.  As such the stealthers have to move incredibly slow and then be stationary while performing their duties of providing behind the lines intel or actions. 

    Any direct attack from the stealth position would obviously expose the position and render further stealth impossible until they can eliminate the target(s) or get out of the area of perception.  Also, after a stealth attack, everyone in the area would be on heightened stealth alert for some period of time and detection would be much easier.

    Under these constraints, I see stealth use primarily for sabotage, traps and intel gathering.  I could see a stealth character sneaking up on the shadowy side of a keep/wall and quietly getting up and over for intel gathering.  A better use of this character would be to sneak ahead and place traps to thwart counter attacks along the path of operation.  Or set traps in areas to deny / hinder enemy use of strategic areas.

    So in my mind a stealthier should be designed for intel gathering, trap placement and area control.  Sort of like the local resistance fighters who exist to hinder the opponent and provide crucial information to their partners.  And if they are really good, they could place false info inside enemy positions/ steal good info and get out undetected.

    Grog

  • audizmannaudizmann AalborgPosts: 24Member

    Well, you could also argue that before you can define the role of stealth you must know the basic layout of the RvR world, the infrastructure, the design of buildings (siege fights), etc.

    Ideally, I think you should have several "levels" of stealth ranging from one extreme (recon) to the other (assassin). Your level of stealth could be determined by your equipment:

    Cloth armor + one-handed weapon = excellent stealth

    Chain armor + dual wield = very poor stealth

    ...and everything in between.

  • ScambugScambug TortugaPosts: 389Member

    Begone with stealth in MMOs. It's stupidly unrealistic. There's no way some dude can stand 10 feet infront of me while beeing totally invisible. Unless he's wearing the One Ring of course, but that's for another game...

    Now I'd have nothing against a REALISTIC form of stealth , ie: you'd have the ability to become invisible while standing in a shadow or something but running around in broad daylight totally invisible is just silly.

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by Pie_Rat

    Begone with stealth in MMOs. It's stupidly unrealistic. There's no way some dude can stand 10 feet infront of me while beeing totally invisible. Unless he's wearing the One Ring of course, but that's for another game...

    Now I'd have nothing against a REALISTIC form of stealth , ie: you'd have the ability to become invisible while standing in a shadow or something but running around in broad daylight totally invisible is just silly.

    While you certainly have the right to dislike stealth, playing the "realism" card won't garner your cause much support in a fantasy game. 

    -Rogue disappears in front of you - totally unrealistic!

    -Wizard vaporizes you with ball of fire which springs from his bare hand - REALISTIC!

    This whole line of reasoning is just silly.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • ScambugScambug TortugaPosts: 389Member
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by Pie_Rat

    Begone with stealth in MMOs. It's stupidly unrealistic. There's no way some dude can stand 10 feet infront of me while beeing totally invisible. Unless he's wearing the One Ring of course, but that's for another game...

    Now I'd have nothing against a REALISTIC form of stealth , ie: you'd have the ability to become invisible while standing in a shadow or something but running around in broad daylight totally invisible is just silly.

    While you certainly have the right to dislike stealth, playing the "realism" card won't garner your cause much support in a fantasy game. 

    -Rogue disappears in front of you - totally unrealistic!

    -Wizard vaporizes you with ball of fire which springs from his bare hand - REALISTIC!

    This whole line of reasoning is just silly.

    It's not silly. Wizards use magic, that's their thing. So yes it is realistic when they shoot fireballs at you. It fits the lore and makes sense.

    Stealth classes on the other hand are invariably melee fighters that deal physical damage, there's never anything magical about them.

    So yeah I'd be OK with mages getting invisibility but not  dagger using melee classes. Like I said previously, they could get a camouflage ability, that would resemble stealth but they'd need specific environment to set it up.

    It's always a good thing to be coherent, in real life and in a fantasy video game. Non magic users having the ability to turn invisible in broad daylight aren't coherent with anything, not even in a high fantasy setting.

     

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by Pie_Rat

    Begone with stealth in MMOs. It's stupidly unrealistic. There's no way some dude can stand 10 feet infront of me while beeing totally invisible. Unless he's wearing the One Ring of course, but that's for another game...

    Now I'd have nothing against a REALISTIC form of stealth , ie: you'd have the ability to become invisible while standing in a shadow or something but running around in broad daylight totally invisible is just silly.

    You are totally outisde the subject of this thread. there are many other threads that talks about liking or disliking stealth.

    This thread here is mostly to talk about the various purpose could have in the game, and how it should be implemented depending of its purpose.

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    No offense OP, but you're focusing on the biproducts of stealth, rather than it's true purpose.

    Stealth is essentially a mechanic to allow players to initiate combat or sneak, without requiring the game to have environments capable of allowing players to do this on their own. How you use stealth (of which you have listed as examples in the poll) is what makes the mechanic imbalanced.

    Simply put, games that have overly simplistic maps / environments use stealth as a mechanic for breaking up stalemates. Games with more involved maps / environments allow players to break up stalemates & scout by using the environment (hiding behind trees, rocks, bushes, shadows, walls, etc. etc. etc.)

    Stealth can work, and be a fun mechanic, but it's still essentially a mechanic bred from a hotfix to outdated technology & game mechanics.

  • OdamanOdaman Satesboro, GAPosts: 194Member
    Picked 1, but really 1 & 2. Anyone thinking solo play won't be welcomed in big boy rvr hasn't been paying attention to what MJ has said so far. 
  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    No offense OP, but you're focusing on the biproducts of stealth, rather than it's true purpose.

    *snip*

    I'm not familiar with all the abbrev. in forums.... what means OP in that situation ?

    image

    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
    Originally posted by aesperus

    No offense OP, but you're focusing on the biproducts of stealth, rather than it's true purpose.

    *snip*

    I'm not familiar with all the abbrev. in forums.... what means OP in that situation ?

    OP means Original Poster in this context.

    Bowbow, I think your poll creates a false choice.  I couldn't decide between 1 and 2.  I would like the stealth classes to be used for strategic purposes like sabotage and scouting, but that shouldn't prohibit them from killing enemies when an opportunity arises.

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
    Originally posted by aesperus

    No offense OP, but you're focusing on the biproducts of stealth, rather than it's true purpose.

    *snip*

    I'm not familiar with all the abbrev. in forums.... what means OP in that situation ?

    OP means Original Poster in this context.

    Bowbow, I think your poll creates a false choice.  I couldn't decide between 1 and 2.  I would like the stealth classes to be used for strategic purposes like sabotage and scouting, but that shouldn't prohibit them from killing enemies when an opportunity arises.

    I wasnt try to make it that way though. My choices were  to see if people would rather see stealth used for  :

    (1)purely scouting and "passive" actions,

    (2) something a bit more "active" but not necessarly in combat or

    (3) for combat purpose only.

     

    It could end up being a bit of each too, but with the post that came right before the poll, i suggested some specific questions to help people have a more profound thought about stealth, rather than a simple "love or hate".

     

     

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • WolvanWolvan New Lenox, ILPosts: 49Member

    Yah, I'm with Tumble.

     

    Combination of number 1 and 2. 

     

     

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  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Henderson, NVPosts: 322Member
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
    Originally posted by aesperus

    No offense OP, but you're focusing on the biproducts of stealth, rather than it's true purpose.

    *snip*

    I'm not familiar with all the abbrev. in forums.... what means OP in that situation ?

    OP means Original Poster in this context.

    Bowbow, I think your poll creates a false choice.  I couldn't decide between 1 and 2.  I would like the stealth classes to be used for strategic purposes like sabotage and scouting, but that shouldn't prohibit them from killing enemies when an opportunity arises.

    I wasnt try to make it that way though. My choices were  to see if people would rather see stealth used for  :

    (1)purely scouting and "passive" actions,

    (2) something a bit more "active" but not necessarly in combat or

    (3) for combat purpose only.

     

    It could end up being a bit of each too, but with the post that came right before the poll, i suggested some specific questions to help people have a more profound thought about stealth, rather than a simple "love or hate".

     

     

    Gotcha.  That makes sense.  Maybe that's how the poll should read.  First question (in a series of questions about stealth): Should you be able to attack from stealth?  Yes/No

     

    Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

    RED IS DEAD!

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon

    the poll is a bit too biased towards the OP's way of viewing the situation.

    it makes it hard to vote my thoughts.

    voted for the ganking one because I don't mind games that allow in-combat stealthing.  but that doens't mean the way Rift/Wow does it is even close to personally acceptable to me.

    I would also be wary of taking the first step as "defining the purpose."  Proper systems design means you wouldn't want to lock yourself into any certain theme until the full environment the system is operating within is understood to the best of your ability.

    that is why threads like these that take an individual system and examine it removed from all relevent factors is of little practical use.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member

    I'll edit the OP adding this :

    I wasnt try to make it that way though. My choices were  to see if people would rather see stealth used for  :

    (1)purely scouting and "passive" actions,

    (2) something a bit more "active" but not necessarly in combat or

    (3) for combat purpose only.

     

    It could end up being a bit of each too, but with the post that came right before the poll, i suggested some specific questions to help people have a more profound thought about stealth, rather than a simple "love or hate".

     

    and if can, correct the choices of the poll.

     

    Sorry everyone if i wasnt clear about them :)

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    Troubled I am. Just for ganking and unfair advantages a quarter of you would use this power. A dark time this is.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    Troubled I am. Just for ganking and unfair advantages a quarter of you would use this power. A dark time this is.

    But on the other end, 60% wants stealth for more strategic purposes, there is hope :D

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

    I wasnt try to make it that way though. My choices were  to see if people would rather see stealth used for  :

    (1)purely scouting and "passive" actions,

    (2) something a bit more "active" but not necessarly in combat or

    (3) for combat purpose only.

    It could end up being a bit of each too, but with the post that came right before the poll, i suggested some specific questions to help people have a more profound thought about stealth, rather than a simple "love or hate".

    Gotcha.  That makes sense.  Maybe that's how the poll should read.  First question (in a series of questions about stealth): Should you be able to attack from stealth?  Yes/No

    A very good question. However, I think for the purposes of this discussion, the real quesiton should be 'is it necessary'?

    I've seen squishy melee DPS (rogue-like classes) do just fine w/ out stealth. I've also played games (including the original DAoC) in which it was possible to be sneaky, scout, and sneak up on people without relying on stealth.

    I'd argue that, like taunt, stealth is one of those mechanics born out of old tech. We've grown up on it, gotten used to it, but I think it's a mistake to then assume that it's somehow necessary because 'it's always been that way'. It's one thing to want a game designed like an older game you loved. It's an entirely different thing to assume games have to be designed that way to be good.

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Tumblebutz
    Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

    I wasnt try to make it that way though. My choices were  to see if people would rather see stealth used for  :

    (1)purely scouting and "passive" actions,

    (2) something a bit more "active" but not necessarly in combat or

    (3) for combat purpose only.

    It could end up being a bit of each too, but with the post that came right before the poll, i suggested some specific questions to help people have a more profound thought about stealth, rather than a simple "love or hate".

    Gotcha.  That makes sense.  Maybe that's how the poll should read.  First question (in a series of questions about stealth): Should you be able to attack from stealth?  Yes/No

    A very good question. However, I think for the purposes of this discussion, the real quesiton should be 'is it necessary'?

    I've seen squishy melee DPS (rogue-like classes) do just fine w/ out stealth. I've also played games (including the original DAoC) in which it was possible to be sneaky, scout, and sneak up on people without relying on stealth.

    I'd argue that, like taunt, stealth is one of those mechanics born out of old tech. We've grown up on it, gotten used to it, but I think it's a mistake to then assume that it's somehow necessary because 'it's always been that way'. It's one thing to want a game designed like an older game you loved. It's an entirely different thing to assume games have to be designed that way to be good.

    Thats the exact reason why i started this topic in the first place. Stealth has been part of many mmos in the last decade, but not all of them had it designed for a specific purpose. So its a good idea to discuss WHY would CU and the players could / would want stealth to be implemented. and it all depends on the game itself headstart, the end game, the goals, the reason we fight PvP.

    Knowing all that would then help to figure out HOW to implement stealth, thats the main reason of the initial post here.

    we could easily think of many "new" ways to have stealth in a game.

    I have plenty of ideas on how to implement stealth, depending on what purpose it should fill in the game. but its gonna be a long post when i make it ( i tend to use more words to explain myself since i'm french canadian  :P )

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 467Member Uncommon

    ...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

    Back to eye-charts.

     

     

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • BowbowDAoCBowbowDAoC Granby, QCPosts: 470Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs

    ...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

    Back to eye-charts.

     

     

    lol :)

    When there's a will, there's a way :)

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    Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
    Thurka on WAR

    image

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,911Member Uncommon

    First two combined.  Scouting, spying, sabotage, and assasination.

     

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
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