It sounds like pvp is limited to a central territory. What's the issue with that?
Thats not the problem many have with ESO.
Its that the rest of the world (the PvE part) is split in to 3 segregated Faction specific areas.
The only way to explore the entire gameworld is to roll (and level) 3 seperate characters
Sounds good to me.
Yup. That's they way DAoC was, and I had no issue with it. There was plenty to do in your home realm, and there was always PvP when you wanted to mix it up a bit.
As a recovering WoW veteran with seven years of experience toiling in Blizzard's salt mines, I just wanted to chime in favorably on point #4 and against point #5.
Win trading is the enemy of all that is good and just in the world, and I say that as the hapless bastard who's spent a good part of those seven years encouraging the Alliance to throw AV as soon as it goes against us. Quite simply, you receive more honor per hour from a 10 minute loss in AV than you would from a 20 minute loss (or a 30 minute win through attrition). Once the writing's on the wall, you're better off throwing the match entirely and getting into another round as quickly as possible. After all, the next 10 minute round could be in your favor.
This is clearly something that ESO needs to avoid. Give the min/maxers a reason to fight, or we won't. I can see compelling gameplay and strategy arising from making an orderly withdrawal from one objective to strike at the next, but it will inevitably lead to win-trading and a system where smart players will never bother with a contested objective.
With regard to race- or alliance-based advantages, however, I disagree entirely. Ghostcrawler himself (lead systems designer for WoW and famed vanquisher of alligators) has said that he wishes races in WoW provided no benefits whatsoever and were purely a cosmetic choice. I can only assume that the reason he hasn't made the change is that players would screech and gnash their teeth and beat their breasts, but they simply don't know what's good for them.
65% of the top 100 guilds in WoW's T14 were Horde guilds, and so it has been since time immemorial. The players judge that Horde has the better racials, and so the best players flock to their side. It's only rational. And it's inevitable, despite the best efforts of anybody to balance A to be just as good as B. The only thing that's just as good as A is A, and I truly hope that races and alliances will be an apples to apples comparison.
That doesn't mean that there can't be a tremendous amount of flavor and character for each. In fact, I'd love to see the return of the starting skill bumps that we're used to from the series, since they define the strengths of each race without lasting implications for gameplay. Sure, any Bosmer child can fire a bow better than my Breton at level 1, but by level 50 I can overcome the deficit.
The illusion is that humans and orcs are separate, but equal, yet this hasn't proven any more true in game design than it did in American society. Just make them equal, and let us play what we want, rather than what we must.
As an escapee from your last MMO you will find many others here in the MMO refugee shanty town. Nice intro post and welcome to the boards.
its just not true what Bill is implying here. What we really have are a few devs pushing back to the good old DAOC days. And it is a pipe dream.
In fact there are 100 to 1 people who play mmos not for pvp and especially not for DAOC type pvp but instead for good old open world exploration and questing as well as missioning. This includes housing.
Just because a few devs are trying to bring back realm vs realm pvp as the only real way. It is not going to happen other then a little nisch of dedicated people who have a pipedream that this is the future.
In reality they are doomed to fail and die.
Sorry if i dissappoint your pipe dreams.
And once again ffxiv will shine compared to these DAOC clones in moderen dressing. And making the morrowwind world into a DAOC clone is gonna fail big time of all because the people who actually want to play the came (that is the overwhelming majority) would prefer and open endless seamless world to explore craft etc.
Bobm111
Spoken like someone that is not in the FFXIV beta. AoC clone > WoW clone
I’m going to try to keep this short and to the point this week. It’s no secret that three-faction PvP is on a bit of a comeback in recent years. With the failure of Mythic’s Warhammer Online to gain traction, a lot of players blamed the two-faction system. After all, it was a far cry from the RvR system of Dark Age of Camelot that so many love and cherish to this day. Now, with the success of Guild Wars 2
If WAR had a F2P model with a cash shop it might still be a contender today. As for DAoC nobody actually has played it during its glory days, heck it only ever had a few hundred K subs when it was at its peak years ago, so gawd alone knows how legit people are now claiming they played this game when it was a growing MMORPG. As for Elder Scrolls, I think this could be the next big one to land, though it still is early days. GW2 will fade over next few years, so hail to the new king I think here.
If WAR had a F2P model with a cash shop it might still be a contender today. As for DAoC nobody actually has played it during its glory days, heck it only ever had a few hundred K subs when it was at its peak years ago, so gawd alone knows how legit people are now claiming they played this game when it was a growing MMORPG. As for Elder Scrolls, I think this could be the next big one to land, though it still is early days. GW2 will fade over next few years, so hail to the new king I think here.
Zero to base that on at all. GW2 is receiving continual updates, 3 of them were massive, total updates = larger than an expansion and the population is strong even without the new PvP updates that is what most have been waiting for...as for TESO being the new king...lol. No game with closed faction lands has done well, even back in the "good ol'days" it wasnt good enough for even the #3 spot because EQ1, UO and SWG had far more players than DaoC.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by jtcgs No game with closed faction lands has done well, even back in the "good ol'days" it wasnt good enough for even the #3 spot because EQ1, UO and SWG had far more players than DaoC.
DAoC wasnt really fun for me because the playable area for your Realm was actually quite small compared to the other games out there where you had more choice and options about where you wanted to go and what you wanted to do. The other games were less restrictive.
In DAoC,you had your Realm land and the Frontier. Thats it. Until Darkness Falls released and even that was meh.
Once you had got to a decent level you had seen it all and if you werent really into PvP it really got boring.
Oh sure you could roll up other characters in the other Realms, but Im one of those that hated having to re-level and kill another Realm version of Spraggons 100k times just to see the whole game-world.
I kind of see the same for ESO. The Faction lands that you can adventure in will probably be a bit bigger, but if you are not much into PvP and dont like to re-roll/relevel, the game will seem very limited and restrictive.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
It sounds like pvp is limited to a central territory. What's the issue with that?
Thats not the problem many have with ESO.
Its that the rest of the world (the PvE part) is split in to 3 segregated Faction specific areas.
The only way to explore the entire gameworld is to roll (and level) 3 seperate characters
Sounds good to me.
Yup. That's they way DAoC was, and I had no issue with it. There was plenty to do in your home realm, and there was always PvP when you wanted to mix it up a bit.
Well that's not the way TES does it and who's name is on the box?
I don't know what pisses me off more, the fact that they are turning ESO into a cheap DAoC knock-off or seeing DAoC fans taking priority over TES fans.
It sounds like pvp is limited to a central territory. What's the issue with that?
Thats not the problem many have with ESO.
Its that the rest of the world (the PvE part) is split in to 3 segregated Faction specific areas.
The only way to explore the entire gameworld is to roll (and level) 3 seperate characters
Sounds good to me.
Yup. That's they way DAoC was, and I had no issue with it. There was plenty to do in your home realm, and there was always PvP when you wanted to mix it up a bit.
Well that's not the way TES does it and who's name is on the box?
I don't know what pisses me off more, the fact that they are turning ESO into a cheap DAoC knock-off or seeing DAoC fans taking priority over TES fans.
Did I miss the PVP module in Skyrim or something? Since TES games aren't really about PVP, why would you assume a MMORPG version of it (which frequently do focus on PVP) would not borrow from some other model previously used?
Whether or not you like the current design seems largely center around whether or not you thought DAOC had a good RVR model and whether you are flexible enough to let go of your preference to explore the entire world in one character.
It's the the developer's benefit to keep you playing and paying and if making you level three characters accomplishes that goal, then a win for them.
When I played DAOC I leveled 3 characters on MLF (Albion side) to 50, then leveled 5 characters on the FFA PVP server Mordred. (plus messed around with a number of RVR alts on other realms).
They got sub fees from me for up to 4 accounts at a time for almost 3 years. I'd say they succeeded in achieving their goals with me, and guess what, I had a lot of fun as well.
Don't forget who they make these games for, themselves to make money, and if they manage to entertain you in the process, so much the better.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It sounds like pvp is limited to a central territory. What's the issue with that?
Thats not the problem many have with ESO.
Its that the rest of the world (the PvE part) is split in to 3 segregated Faction specific areas.
The only way to explore the entire gameworld is to roll (and level) 3 seperate characters
Sounds good to me.
Yup. That's they way DAoC was, and I had no issue with it. There was plenty to do in your home realm, and there was always PvP when you wanted to mix it up a bit.
Well that's not the way TES does it and who's name is on the box?
I don't know what pisses me off more, the fact that they are turning ESO into a cheap DAoC knock-off or seeing DAoC fans taking priority over TES fans.
fans of daoc taking priortity over fans of Swg is what is pissing you off.
also where does this weird notion that you cant be a fan of both daoc and tes come from? its not like they are polar opposite games, both are open world, both are darkish fantasy, both have a meaningful emphasis on crafting, both have non hand holding exploration based pve gameplay. Hell in the case of morrowind, both used the same bloody game engine.
It sounds like pvp is limited to a central territory. What's the issue with that?
Thats not the problem many have with ESO.
Its that the rest of the world (the PvE part) is split in to 3 segregated Faction specific areas.
The only way to explore the entire gameworld is to roll (and level) 3 seperate characters
Sounds good to me.
Yup. That's they way DAoC was, and I had no issue with it. There was plenty to do in your home realm, and there was always PvP when you wanted to mix it up a bit.
Well that's not the way TES does it and who's name is on the box?
I don't know what pisses me off more, the fact that they are turning ESO into a cheap DAoC knock-off or seeing DAoC fans taking priority over TES fans.
Did I miss the PVP module in Skyrim or something? Since TES games aren't really about PVP, why would you assume a MMORPG version of it (which frequently do focus on PVP) would not borrow from some other model previously used?
Whether or not you like the current design seems largely center around whether or not you thought DAOC had a good RVR model and whether you are flexible enough to let go of your preference to explore the entire world in one character.
It's the the developer's benefit to keep you playing and paying and if making you level three characters accomplishes that goal, then a win for them.
When I played DAOC I leveled 3 characters on MLF (Albion side) to 50, then leveled 5 characters on the FFA PVP server Mordred. (plus messed around with a number of RVR alts on other realms).
They got sub fees from me for up to 4 accounts at a time for almost 3 years. I'd say they succeeded in achieving their goals with me, and guess what, I had a lot of fun as well.
Don't forget who they make these games for, themselves to make money, and if they manage to entertain you in the process, so much the better.
heres the rub though
thoose opposed to using a daoc like pvp model have their own conflicting ideas on what to use instead
half of them want a 99% pve game like EQ or some crappy voluntary flagging system like SWG
the other half want a PVP everywhere game along the lines of eve, vanilla uo and darkfall
theres probably a few crazies that want it to be yet another bloody wow clone too.
cant satisfy both them camps, which is why zenimax did a sensible thing and take a system that caters to pveers and pvpers equally.
Originally posted by Garbrac AvA (Alliance versus Alliance) is the same as WvW (World versus World) in Guild Wars 2, or RvR (Realm versus Realm) in Dark Age of Camelot, you will also see it as FvF (Faction versus Faction).
No it is not because GW2 does not limit factions to their own land. Big difference.
One is open world with PvP in closed areas because the factions are NOT AT WAR with each other.
The other game split its lands into 3, didnt let another cross an invisible wall and on top of it limited PvP to neverland while claiming factions were at war with each other. Nothing like factions at war that actually cant attack the other faction except in some special magical place.
Hey lets go to war with people that arent actually attacking our lands and cant!
thats right GW2 lets you hop servers to someone elses lands, another reason why its "my first rvr" setup is inferior to daoc, along with rez zerg, huge culling problems, no long term rivalry due to no names and server shuffle, nothing to advance your guild etc..
the factions are at war, factions are servers in GW2, i think you getting confused between races and factions, with your logic wow is TWELVE faction game.
GW2 has considerably less PVE landmass than DAOC. Each realms PVE area in DAOC was BIGGER than what you get in GW2. Its a neat way to cut costs though, make everyone share PVE content by making servedrs factions.
Also you could explore the entire world in dAOC - IF you were on a coop or ffa server instead of a core one.
Also people were attacking your lands, each realm had their own PVP - FRONTIER. It wasnt some instanced off on a 4th server box thing like GW2, it was part of the world. walk from - home lands ->? our home pvp lands -> contested PVP lands.
Youve obviously never ever played DAOC if you think GW2 is abetter PVP experience. Planetside did it much better too, as does planetside 2 to a degree. Hell even the much maligned war is possibly (slightly) better than GW2 at RVR at least you can see who just bloody killed you.
Did I miss the PVP module in Skyrim or something? Since TES games aren't really about PVP, why would you assume a MMORPG version of it (which frequently do focus on PVP) would not borrow from some other model previously used?
Why do they "have" to borrow anything from other games?
Originally posted by ShakyMo
fans of daoc taking priortity over fans of Swg is what is pissing you off.
2) so PvE people have to PvP or does it open for PvE people if the PvP people open it?
5) Whiners will come out of the wood work..R, P, S in gaming world seems to just create a world of internet tears.
2) its a pvp enabled open dungeon, you wouldnt want to go there anyway. Its not a bunch of scripted boss fights like say a wow raid. People went there to farm crafting materials and gold mainly.
Did I miss the PVP module in Skyrim or something? Since TES games aren't really about PVP, why would you assume a MMORPG version of it (which frequently do focus on PVP) would not borrow from some other model previously used?
Why do they "have" to borrow anything from other games?
Originally posted by ShakyMo
fans of daoc taking priortity over fans of Swg is what is pissing you off.
[mod edit]
so your not a SWG fan?
why are you hellbent on making out daoc and tes are polar oposite games. Lots of people like both games.
fans of daoc taking priortity over fans of Swg is what is pissing you off.
[mod edit]
so your not a SWG fan?
why are you hellbent on making out daoc and tes are polar oposite games. Lots of people like both games.
I played SWG, thought it was okay but what does that have to do with this conversation. SWG was never even mentioned (at least not by me).
Other than a high fantasy setting, DAoC and TES are very different. TES was about open adventures and making choices that develops your character. DAoC was focused on RvR combat.
Why are you guys so hellbent on making out MMORPG and SP-RPG polar opposites? Like they couldn't have open factions or exploration in a MMO. I have no problem with a 3 faction PvP system but I do have a problem when cloning DAoC takes prioritity over TES .
fans of daoc taking priortity over fans of Swg is what is pissing you off.
[mod edit]
so your not a SWG fan?
why are you hellbent on making out daoc and tes are polar oposite games. Lots of people like both games.
I played SWG, thought it was okay but what does that have to do with this conversation. SWG was never even mentioned (at least not by me).
Other than a high fantasy setting, DAoC and TES are very different. TES was about open adventures and making choices that develops your character. DAoC was focused on RvR combat.
Why are you guys so hellbent on making out MMORPG and SP-RPG polar opposites? Like they couldn't have open factions or exploration in a MMO. I have no problem with a 3 faction PvP system but I do have a problem when cloning DAoC takes prioritity over TES .
no PVE wise DAOC was pretty much like TES. Wander off and find stuff. Its an open world game, its not a on the rails wow clone type game at all. Also netiher game is high fantasy - high fantasy is like lotr or eq or wow. They are darker more shades of grey games - though not true dark fantasy like say Conan, Elric or game of thrones. DAOC is basicly EQ + RVR and useful crafting (and with better housing imo), its still a fully fledged PVE game, hell it had servers with no PVP on them. Its a misnomer amongst modern gamers that DAOC is a "PVP game" its not. Its one of that very rare breed of games that cater to PVEers and PVPers EQUALLY, something i hope TESO can replicate.
no PVE wise DAOC was pretty much like TES. Wander off and find stuff. Its an open world game, its not a on the rails wow clone type game at all. Also netiher game is high fantasy - high fantasy is like lotr or eq or wow. They are darker more shades of grey games - though not true dark fantasy like say Conan, Elric or game of thrones. DAOC is basicly EQ + RVR and useful crafting (and with better housing imo), its still a fully fledged PVE game, hell it had servers with no PVP on them. Its a misnomer amongst modern gamers that DAOC is a "PVP game" its not. Its one of that very rare breed of games that cater to PVEers and PVPers EQUALLY, something i hope TESO can replicate.
SWG must be jctgs's game of choice then.
High fantasy is defined as fantasy fiction set in an alternative, entirely fictional ("secondary") world, rather than the real, or "primary" world. The secondary world is usually internally consistent but its rules differ in some way(s) from those of the primary world. By contrast, low fantasy is characterized by being set in the primary, or "real" world, or a rational and familiar fictional world, with the inclusion of magical elements.
It may be 'dark world' but it's still within the defination of high fantasy.
I'm laughing at those that think fans of SWG, DaOC and TES should be at polar opposites. For online games SWG and DaOC were y favorites and I sure as heck like playing the TES type Solo games. If they could incorporate all three of those games into one I sure as heck would play!
Originally posted by buegur I'm laughing at those that think fans of SWG, DaOC and TES should be at polar opposites. For online games SWG and DaOC were y favorites and I sure as heck like playing the TES type Solo games. If they could incorporate all three of those games into one I sure as heck would play!
well yeah i agree
Im just anoyed with all the "true tes fans" vs daco fans posts. Like daoc fans dont like tes too or something. Especially when the content of the posts from said "true tes fans" often
a) betrays a lack of knowledge of the tes games
and
b) has numerous "make it like tes" ideas that are actually make it like eq/swg/df/eve/wow/whatever ideas.
Fact is tes games are single player games, translated directly it would make a poor mmo, even though they are mostly excellent sprpgs (not such a fan of oblivion though). We all have different ideas where the "mmo part" should come from, in this case us daoc fans got lucky. Most of the whine is people wanting it to take the "mmo part" from their game of choice. Personally i think ZOS made a good choice, they could have taken the MMO bit from wow like everyone else and that would flop. They could have taken the mmo part from a heavy pvp game like DF or done the oposite and copied a heavy pve game like EQ but that would alienate people, DAOC occupies a middle ground.
"One persistent problem with systems such as AvA? People tend to find the path of least resistance and go for it. In many case, what winds up happening is that players actually trade the taking of objective points, because it’s easier than defending them or holding them. And that’s where the problem lies. In any and all areas of Cyrodiil where you capture an objective, it should always be more rewarding for the players to defend and hold the place, than to just let it be taken and retake it after."
This point is really the only one that matters.
I think this is a generational problem.
DAOC veterans had realm pride, you'd want to hold a keep so that the other guys didn't get it.
GW2 has kind of proven that doesn't really exist anymore.
yeah but thats just GW2 for you, its a very super casual game, lots of things work against WvW like having no names is a particularly big one, theres no incentive to get people back, no oportunity to build rivalry. I'm playing Planetside 2, theres rivalry there, i played WAR that had rivalry too. Sure not as much as DAOC or planetside 1, but a damn site more than there is in GW2.
Is it because it's more difficult to be proud of your server than it is a faction or alliance? Or has the mindset really changed where the gamer just wants to "get theirs" even if it's at the expense of their team?
There are of course outliers and cases where people do still take a lot of pride in their "realm" but I'm talking in generalities - the "overall" mood or perceived mood.
So how do you fix that?
How do you make people want to take the more difficult / arduous path?
To most MMO gamers race is just a cosmetic choice or a specific buff to min/max their character.
A factional choice is just tied to race or whatever their friends/guilds are doing.
How do you design a game/gameplay system where players actually believe in something?
Is the average modern MMO player even capable of believing in anything?
So if you can't inspire true loyalty and pride in your faction and hatred of yours enemies - especially when at the same time you are trying to get players to play a character from each faction for the story elements (terrible design choice to mix the two conflicting motivations BTW Zenimax)
How do you force players to play the way they are "supposed" to and not break your sytems?
We all know players never play as expected and rarely play as the developer wants them to.
So how do you foolproof the systems?
Lots of unanswered questions in this post - but the answers to those questions is the answer to "How do you make AvA thrive?"
Hopefully Zenimax has some answers.
you make teamwork and coordination really matter
you dont reward people for capping objectives, you reward people for kills / heals / tanking damage etc.. then apply a modifier based upon the territory currently held.
you let people know who just killed them
you dont let people swap sides willy nilly, consort with the enemy in pve or hop onto servers where they can have it easy. - mistakles made by GW2, anarchy online, tsw & wow amongst others.
sadly some of the things they are doing, like letting you transfer to another campaign, belong to multiple guilds, not having pve areas tied to the campaign and being able to guest in friends campaigns will probably break this
What they need to avoid this the issue that HAS FAILED, this AvA should be largely end game only, some open (lvl) capped maps with little impact such as daoc bgs can be provided. Otherwise, it will not work... keeps should not be about exp or money, they should be about winning... this is where every other game has gone wrong save daoc. Its RVR area was about winning.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Originally posted by buegur I'm laughing at those that think fans of SWG, DaOC and TES should be at polar opposites. For online games SWG and DaOC were y favorites and I sure as heck like playing the TES type Solo games. If they could incorporate all three of those games into one I sure as heck would play!
well yeah i agree
Im just anoyed with all the "true tes fans" vs daco fans posts. Like daoc fans dont like tes too or something. Especially when the content of the posts from said "true tes fans" often
a) betrays a lack of knowledge of the tes games
and
b) has numerous "make it like tes" ideas that are actually make it like eq/swg/df/eve/wow/whatever ideas.
I'll admit, if they were to make TESO more like "Fantasy Eve" than like a spiritual successor to DaoC, I'd be much happier about the idea.
Still: that's not the approach they took, and I'd rather they stick with an approach I'm less fond of than screw up trying to shift to the one I'd rather have at the last minute.
Is prefer a fantasy eve too kaos, it would fit the game better. But too late now. I understand why they didn't go that way, the game is a big investment, they don't want to scare away the carebears.
Fortunately I like daoc too so...
One thing for certain, if the game was yet another bloody raiders first, screw everyone else wow clone I wouldn't go anywhere near it.
Crafting, economy and pvp are very important to me in a mmo. Pve I'm not arsed, I can get better pve experiences in single player games like Witcher 2, fallout new Vegas and indeed skyrim. Much better pve than any mmo I've played.
Comments
Yup. That's they way DAoC was, and I had no issue with it. There was plenty to do in your home realm, and there was always PvP when you wanted to mix it up a bit.
As an escapee from your last MMO you will find many others here in the MMO refugee shanty town. Nice intro post and welcome to the boards.
Spoken like someone that is not in the FFXIV beta. AoC clone > WoW clone
If WAR had a F2P model with a cash shop it might still be a contender today. As for DAoC nobody actually has played it during its glory days, heck it only ever had a few hundred K subs when it was at its peak years ago, so gawd alone knows how legit people are now claiming they played this game when it was a growing MMORPG. As for Elder Scrolls, I think this could be the next big one to land, though it still is early days. GW2 will fade over next few years, so hail to the new king I think here.
Zero to base that on at all. GW2 is receiving continual updates, 3 of them were massive, total updates = larger than an expansion and the population is strong even without the new PvP updates that is what most have been waiting for...as for TESO being the new king...lol. No game with closed faction lands has done well, even back in the "good ol'days" it wasnt good enough for even the #3 spot because EQ1, UO and SWG had far more players than DaoC.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
DAoC wasnt really fun for me because the playable area for your Realm was actually quite small compared to the other games out there where you had more choice and options about where you wanted to go and what you wanted to do. The other games were less restrictive.
In DAoC,you had your Realm land and the Frontier. Thats it. Until Darkness Falls released and even that was meh.
Once you had got to a decent level you had seen it all and if you werent really into PvP it really got boring.
Oh sure you could roll up other characters in the other Realms, but Im one of those that hated having to re-level and kill another Realm version of Spraggons 100k times just to see the whole game-world.
I kind of see the same for ESO. The Faction lands that you can adventure in will probably be a bit bigger, but if you are not much into PvP and dont like to re-roll/relevel, the game will seem very limited and restrictive.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
Well that's not the way TES does it and who's name is on the box?
I don't know what pisses me off more, the fact that they are turning ESO into a cheap DAoC knock-off or seeing DAoC fans taking priority over TES fans.Did I miss the PVP module in Skyrim or something? Since TES games aren't really about PVP, why would you assume a MMORPG version of it (which frequently do focus on PVP) would not borrow from some other model previously used?
Whether or not you like the current design seems largely center around whether or not you thought DAOC had a good RVR model and whether you are flexible enough to let go of your preference to explore the entire world in one character.
It's the the developer's benefit to keep you playing and paying and if making you level three characters accomplishes that goal, then a win for them.
When I played DAOC I leveled 3 characters on MLF (Albion side) to 50, then leveled 5 characters on the FFA PVP server Mordred. (plus messed around with a number of RVR alts on other realms).
They got sub fees from me for up to 4 accounts at a time for almost 3 years. I'd say they succeeded in achieving their goals with me, and guess what, I had a lot of fun as well.
Don't forget who they make these games for, themselves to make money, and if they manage to entertain you in the process, so much the better.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
fans of daoc taking priortity over fans of Swg is what is pissing you off.
also where does this weird notion that you cant be a fan of both daoc and tes come from? its not like they are polar opposite games, both are open world, both are darkish fantasy, both have a meaningful emphasis on crafting, both have non hand holding exploration based pve gameplay. Hell in the case of morrowind, both used the same bloody game engine.
heres the rub though
thoose opposed to using a daoc like pvp model have their own conflicting ideas on what to use instead
half of them want a 99% pve game like EQ or some crappy voluntary flagging system like SWG
the other half want a PVP everywhere game along the lines of eve, vanilla uo and darkfall
theres probably a few crazies that want it to be yet another bloody wow clone too.
cant satisfy both them camps, which is why zenimax did a sensible thing and take a system that caters to pveers and pvpers equally.
thats right GW2 lets you hop servers to someone elses lands, another reason why its "my first rvr" setup is inferior to daoc, along with rez zerg, huge culling problems, no long term rivalry due to no names and server shuffle, nothing to advance your guild etc..
the factions are at war, factions are servers in GW2, i think you getting confused between races and factions, with your logic wow is TWELVE faction game.
GW2 has considerably less PVE landmass than DAOC. Each realms PVE area in DAOC was BIGGER than what you get in GW2. Its a neat way to cut costs though, make everyone share PVE content by making servedrs factions.
Also you could explore the entire world in dAOC - IF you were on a coop or ffa server instead of a core one.
Also people were attacking your lands, each realm had their own PVP - FRONTIER. It wasnt some instanced off on a 4th server box thing like GW2, it was part of the world. walk from - home lands ->? our home pvp lands -> contested PVP lands.
Youve obviously never ever played DAOC if you think GW2 is abetter PVP experience. Planetside did it much better too, as does planetside 2 to a degree. Hell even the much maligned war is possibly (slightly) better than GW2 at RVR at least you can see who just bloody killed you.
Why do they "have" to borrow anything from other games?
[mod edit]2) its a pvp enabled open dungeon, you wouldnt want to go there anyway. Its not a bunch of scripted boss fights like say a wow raid. People went there to farm crafting materials and gold mainly.
so your not a SWG fan?
why are you hellbent on making out daoc and tes are polar oposite games. Lots of people like both games.
I played SWG, thought it was okay but what does that have to do with this conversation. SWG was never even mentioned (at least not by me).
Other than a high fantasy setting, DAoC and TES are very different. TES was about open adventures and making choices that develops your character. DAoC was focused on RvR combat.
Why are you guys so hellbent on making out MMORPG and SP-RPG polar opposites? Like they couldn't have open factions or exploration in a MMO. I have no problem with a 3 faction PvP system but I do have a problem when cloning DAoC takes prioritity over TES .
no PVE wise DAOC was pretty much like TES. Wander off and find stuff. Its an open world game, its not a on the rails wow clone type game at all. Also netiher game is high fantasy - high fantasy is like lotr or eq or wow. They are darker more shades of grey games - though not true dark fantasy like say Conan, Elric or game of thrones. DAOC is basicly EQ + RVR and useful crafting (and with better housing imo), its still a fully fledged PVE game, hell it had servers with no PVP on them. Its a misnomer amongst modern gamers that DAOC is a "PVP game" its not. Its one of that very rare breed of games that cater to PVEers and PVPers EQUALLY, something i hope TESO can replicate.
SWG must be jctgs's game of choice then.
High fantasy is defined as fantasy fiction set in an alternative, entirely fictional ("secondary") world, rather than the real, or "primary" world. The secondary world is usually internally consistent but its rules differ in some way(s) from those of the primary world. By contrast, low fantasy is characterized by being set in the primary, or "real" world, or a rational and familiar fictional world, with the inclusion of magical elements.
It may be 'dark world' but it's still within the defination of high fantasy.
well yeah i agree
Im just anoyed with all the "true tes fans" vs daco fans posts. Like daoc fans dont like tes too or something. Especially when the content of the posts from said "true tes fans" often
a) betrays a lack of knowledge of the tes games
and
b) has numerous "make it like tes" ideas that are actually make it like eq/swg/df/eve/wow/whatever ideas.
Fact is tes games are single player games, translated directly it would make a poor mmo, even though they are mostly excellent sprpgs (not such a fan of oblivion though). We all have different ideas where the "mmo part" should come from, in this case us daoc fans got lucky. Most of the whine is people wanting it to take the "mmo part" from their game of choice. Personally i think ZOS made a good choice, they could have taken the MMO bit from wow like everyone else and that would flop. They could have taken the mmo part from a heavy pvp game like DF or done the oposite and copied a heavy pve game like EQ but that would alienate people, DAOC occupies a middle ground.
yeah but thats just GW2 for you, its a very super casual game, lots of things work against WvW like having no names is a particularly big one, theres no incentive to get people back, no oportunity to build rivalry. I'm playing Planetside 2, theres rivalry there, i played WAR that had rivalry too. Sure not as much as DAOC or planetside 1, but a damn site more than there is in GW2.
you make teamwork and coordination really matter
you dont reward people for capping objectives, you reward people for kills / heals / tanking damage etc.. then apply a modifier based upon the territory currently held.
you let people know who just killed them
you dont let people swap sides willy nilly, consort with the enemy in pve or hop onto servers where they can have it easy. - mistakles made by GW2, anarchy online, tsw & wow amongst others.
sadly some of the things they are doing, like letting you transfer to another campaign, belong to multiple guilds, not having pve areas tied to the campaign and being able to guest in friends campaigns will probably break this
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I'll admit, if they were to make TESO more like "Fantasy Eve" than like a spiritual successor to DaoC, I'd be much happier about the idea.
Still: that's not the approach they took, and I'd rather they stick with an approach I'm less fond of than screw up trying to shift to the one I'd rather have at the last minute.Fortunately I like daoc too so...
One thing for certain, if the game was yet another bloody raiders first, screw everyone else wow clone I wouldn't go anywhere near it.
Crafting, economy and pvp are very important to me in a mmo. Pve I'm not arsed, I can get better pve experiences in single player games like Witcher 2, fallout new Vegas and indeed skyrim. Much better pve than any mmo I've played.
Damn I thought it meant Arseholes vs. Arseholes. Isn't that what all these MMO's are becoming...