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Do you think instant gratification is ruining MMORPGs?

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  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower Member Posts: 1,245

    Asheron's call 2 just re-released in beta was launched in 2002 and to this day its still a old skool mmo as you discribe OP.

     

    Its littlebit dumb down with legions expansion in 2005 but its still enormous grind and crafting prolly one of deepest and longest in mmo's today.

    Take prolly 2 years or longer before reaching lvlcap and crafting prolly even longer.

     

    Asherons call2 can you plaay through taking sub 13$ with ac1 and buy client for 10$

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Member UncommonPosts: 550
    Originally posted by GroovyFlower

    Asheron's call 2 just re-released in beta was launched in 2002 and to this day its still a old skool mmo as you discribe OP.

     

    Its littlebit dumb down with legions expansion in 2005 but its still enormous grind and crafting prolly one of deepest and longest in mmo's today.

    Take prolly 2 years or longer before reaching lvlcap and crafting prolly even longer.

     

    Asherons call2 can you plaay through taking sub 13$ with ac1 and buy client for 10$

    It sounds really cool, there's a lot of games from that timeframe that have those qualities.  Unfortunately, no actual new games do :(

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower Member Posts: 1,245
    Originally posted by Abuz0r
    Originally posted by GroovyFlower

    Asheron's call 2 just re-released in beta was launched in 2002 and to this day its still a old skool mmo as you discribe OP.

     

    Its littlebit dumb down with legions expansion in 2005 but its still enormous grind and crafting prolly one of deepest and longest in mmo's today.

    Take prolly 2 years or longer before reaching lvlcap and crafting prolly even longer.

     

    Asherons call2 can you plaay through taking sub 13$ with ac1 and buy client for 10$

    It sounds really cool, there's a lot of games from that timeframe that have those qualities.  Unfortunately, no actual new games do :(

    Even for old game graphics look like there from today they realy can hold agains many todays games and you can play in 1080p 16:9 can you believe it graphics to drool over 2002 old game:)

    AC2 is still very old skool but no themepark also not real sandbox.

    Freedom

    openworld

    no instance but open dungeons to all

    no guidance

    no markers dots or arrows to show you where to go.

    No tips no guides

    no npcs or quest hubs with ! above head.

    Very deep crafting system that takes long to master.

    Also take very long to reach cap prolly many years to lvl150.

    Punishment at death can be harsh at times but im almost dont see people complaining.

    Still community who give and help awesome community.

    Awesome game one of best communitys

    Down side dual/triple/quatro boxing and solo play it kills grouping if to many solo.

    At moment no advertisement or any promoting the game by TURBINE and need a sub for ac1 to be able to play ac2.

    Result not tomany players yet many old ac2 dont know about it and maybe new potetional players waiting at fence i gues.

    AC2Forever!!!

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    It is never too late and as long as we have a solid idea of what it is we want to go back to it would be a big boost to MMO's. We do have good ideas in the newer MMO's, I would not advocate abandoning everything from them. But their inability to maintain traction with players is the writing on the wall. If MMO's just carry on as they are now, there will be no such thing as a AAA title again. In fact we may already have reached that stage.

    If you want the only MMO titles around to be poorly funded and last a couple of months then its going to be a great next few years for you. Ask yourself this, why has no MMO beat AOC in graphics when it came out 5 years ago, why has hardly any MMO beat Lotro for landscapes when it came out six years ago, why are you never going to see a MMO with as many voice overs as SWTOR again? The funding is drying up and the MMO industry will not be able to give new games the development time they need. 

    The problem is that you only look at a narrow definition of MMOs. If you look at MMO-like games, or games with some MMO features, there are lots of successful, and AAA development because of that.

    LOL, DOTA2, WOT, MWO, ARPGs ....

    But you are right ... a narrow definition of MMOs ... those games are going out of favor. Embrace new ideas & new types/variations of games. Isn't that what innovation and gaming is about?

    This has nothing to do with narrow definition, we are taking about a genre which will not be able to fund its titles as well as it used to. I do not believe any of the online game types you mentioned have had the funding that the likes of SWTOR or GW2 have had.

    D3 (ARPG) has AAA funding. DOTA2 and the Blizz MOBA has AAA funding. Borderland 2 has AAA funding. Destiny and Defiance has AAA funding.

    May not be TOR type extreme funding, but certainly these games can match GW2 in terms of production values.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741

    I am not basing this on figures, would be good to see some but companies do not tend to announce development costs. The games you mentioned do not seem to have had the funding of GW2. The true 3D ones maybe, but D3?

    If an online game of any sort (does not have to be a MMO) does not have true 3D the costs must be far less. Also all this is a gradual change. I am not saying the genre has reached a cliff edge and jumped off, funding is declining slowly.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Scot

    I am not basing this on figures, would be good to see some but companies do not tend to announce development costs. The games you mentioned do not seem to have had the funding of GW2. The true 3D ones maybe, but D3?

    If an online game of any sort (does not have to be a MMO) does not have true 3D the costs must be far less. Also all this is a gradual change. I am not saying the genre has reached a cliff edge and jumped off, funding is declining slowly.

    Lets not make up stories. Unless you have any sort of data to support that, its all speculation.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741
    Ok then are their any releases being called triple AAA MMO's this year? What about next year? Last year we had three that were described as AAA.
  • natpicknatpick Member UncommonPosts: 271
    if your answer was yes then play eve online that should sort you out.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot
    Ok then are their any releases being called triple AAA MMO's this year? What about next year? Last year we had three that were described as AAA.

    Defiance.

    Destiny in development. So yeah .. there are AAA MMOs.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Ok then are their any releases being called triple AAA MMO's this year? What about next year? Last year we had three that were described as AAA.

    Defiance.

    Destiny in development. So yeah .. there are AAA MMOs.

     

    Defiance is the MMO with the TV link, I think you could be right there it could be AAA. But if it is a AAA that’s with TV money to back it up. We could indeed get a slew of AAA MMO’s with TV money behind them, but I think that’s a long shot. Also is it a MMO? Looks more like a persistent shooter to me, more of a MMO than PS2 but still very much a MMOFPS.

    This is guesswork, I accept that, we just don’t have figures to go on. But Defiance has not been described as an AAA, and any gaming company would go all out to prove those credentials if it had them.

    Destiny, well not seen a review for that, I think you are jumping the gun as to its AAA status. Also it’s a shooter, which may be the theme here, MMOFPS is on the rise, getting serious funding but hard to say if they are AAA.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Member UncommonPosts: 314

    I have to say No, and than after that, Yes.

    The issue here is that games are naturally ment to be fun, therefore gratifying, and instantly isn't even as significant as always.

    Should the game be completely and always gratifying? yes, should you be able to develop your character instantly? no...

    The question is why is your gratification based on completion... In a typical brief game, completion ment the game was done, there's no more gratification to be had, sure there should be end game content and continual entertainment in the game, but there should be entertainment and gratification thru all parts of the game. If your game isn't fun to participate in thru character development than it's just bad, no amount of end game content justifies it. And of course to be a worth while MMO, it needs endless end game gratification too.

    My point is, the game design, gameplay behavior, the way the game works... should always be gratifying. This goes down to a combat mechanical level and demands that the gameplay be fun to execute. I don't know why more MMOs don't focus on this as a primary concern, but there are dozens of competitive games which involve you playing the same scenarios over, and over, and over, and yet never get boring (well nearly so easily), because the gameplay is interesting. If I can enjoy battle at lvl 1 for 3 hours, than I don't mind taking 3 hours to get to level 2... If your gameplay sucks and all I have to look forward to is making an epic character, than yeah, all I want to do is quickly make something cool, that grinding gears gameplay just serves as a extremely slow character designer... it truely sucks.

    Is instant gratification ruining gaming?... that could never happen. Is instant leveling and lack of renewable or lasting content a problem?... When we seperate the undesirable qualities from the situation and accurately identify what is a problem without attaching it to the wrong subject, we leap much closer to the solution.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Ok then are their any releases being called triple AAA MMO's this year? What about next year? Last year we had three that were described as AAA.

    Defiance.

    Destiny in development. So yeah .. there are AAA MMOs.

     

    Defiance is the MMO with the TV link, I think you could be right there it could be AAA. But if it is a AAA that’s with TV money to back it up. We could indeed get a slew of AAA MMO’s with TV money behind them, but I think that’s a long shot. Also is it a MMO? Looks more like a persistent shooter to me, more of a MMO than PS2 but still very much a MMOFPS.

    This is guesswork, I accept that, we just don’t have figures to go on. But Defiance has not been described as an AAA, and any gaming company would go all out to prove those credentials if it had them.

    Destiny, well not seen a review for that, I think you are jumping the gun as to its AAA status. Also it’s a shooter, which may be the theme here, MMOFPS is on the rise, getting serious funding but hard to say if they are AAA.

    Destiny is made by Bungie, and they are spending years on it. If you doubt its AAA status, just go find the preview. You can easily google it.

    And we are talking abut AAA MMOs (in fact your exact words) .. MMOFPSes are MMOs.

  • DrCokePepsiDrCokePepsi Member UncommonPosts: 177

     Holy goddamn!! This post came from heaven, i swear ! You, sir, have preached the effing truth. I wish more people *realised* this instead of just hopped around on all the pieces of shiat that have been released lately. All of these are pathetic pleas to the (casual) community to come pay them money, or to buy crap for their toon. It's truly pathetic. I barely respect any modern MMO developers now because there is no love, ambition, or care for the game, clearly.

    I myself want to become a game developer, MMO's specifically and have actually for the past few years been collecting thousands of notes, graphs, charts, and documents for EVERY single key thing a game like this requires. It's no simple collection of armor, levels mobs and quests. It requires so much more, and none of the companies have actually, correctly assembled a quality mmo. They forget the true values of social community, adventure, exploration and a solid story driving the events. I'm quite disappointed in today's MMO's, and still, to this day, play Asheron's Call, SWG (at least the emulator) and have been hunting down the next best ones. But thank you sir for posting this. I voted yes obviously and realy hope that the community remains the same in years to come. Casual gaming is ruining MMO's.


    Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
    just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
    and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
    Thank you for your patience.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by DrCokePepsi

    Casual gaming is ruining MMO's.

     

    Nah Casuing gaming is keeping MMO alive.
  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907
    Originally posted by h0urg1ass

    What happened is that human nature took over.Humans will almost invariably choose the path of least reisistance to any goal.  The early MMO's were excruciatingly difficult, even though they were highly rewarding.  Then along came a game that took players by the hand, guided them from point to point, delivered content in neat and tidy packages, removed the difficult part, and rewarded people basically for showing up.  It exploded in popularity.Now other gaming companies see this and they thing to themselves "Well shit, we've been too hard on the players, they really just want an easy game with easily definable goals".  Which is true.  Nine million people are still playing the game that hands everything except the hardest content to you on a platter.When it comes down to it, those of us who want a return to a harsher game that doesn't hold our hands are in the minority.  Any game that goes this route from now on, such as EVE Online (and let me tell you even EVE has been dumbed way way way down from launch) will have only a niche player market.  Gaming companies don't typically design for the niche.  They design for the masses and human nature dictates that the masses want instant gratification.

     

    I agree with all you say except the last part....

    MMO companies in the beginning years ago did NOT design for the masses, they designed for the Niche and knew it, the players knew it, and everyone was happy with that... that was before WoW.



    WoW and after WoW was when MMo companies started to shift their focus away from the niche to the masses, and in my opinion MMOs changed drastically as a result. Some people say they like MMOs now, but I don't... I want the "Original Formula" for MMOs, I want them designed for the Niche they were original designed for, for the kind of players that loved EQ, UO, and DAoC pre-TOA, and I am not ashamed or afraid to say it here.



    Answer to OP's poll: YES

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,387
    Originally posted by Gardavsshade
    MMO companies in the beginning years ago did NOT design for the masses, they designed for the Niche and knew it, the players knew it, and everyone was happy with that... that was before WoW.

     

    That is true. MMO used to be designed for people who really knows computers AND are most likely some form of IT professionals or long time roleplaying game players (hence more analytical, more patient and learned crowd because often times thats what's required of those type of people).

    Ever since WoW MMO designed has for all sorts of people, which often times don't share the value of people who used to play MMO before WoW AND brought in people plays RTS and FPS. Players who starts from those gaming backgrounds generally don't care about story or lore and just wanted to be best and kick everyone's asses (because of the competitive gaming environment that they are used to).
  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529
    Yes cause UO / EQ / SWG had amazing stories. /sarcasm

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • UO4everUO4ever Member Posts: 38

     

     

    Games these days are designed by accountants.  You only have to look at what they did to the money markets ...

  • IkifalesIkifales Member UncommonPosts: 305
    I dont mind a level cap as long as there are other things in place to keep the sandbox up. Things like crafting being the best items or equal to loot. Item decay with limited repairs by crafters. Items always remaining significant, I remember some of my best items in SWG brought envy for many years. Some items became more valuable with time as they became rare. No BoP crap either. PvP based on skill over equipment etc..etc.
  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Yes cause UO / EQ / SWG had amazing stories. /sarcasm

     

    And yet, all of those games increased their membership in the months following release. None of the games released these days seem to be able to do that, despite all attempts to the contrary (and the stuff EA/BW did with TOR to try to keep players was silly). So those original games must have been doing something right.
  • IkifalesIkifales Member UncommonPosts: 305
    Another thing I hate is these politically correct faction communication blocks.
  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529
    I don't recall swg having a massive increase in subs. Actually wasn't it the the opposite?

    CAsual instant gratification gamers are what's keeping the mmo industry big. I am one of them and you accept that the majority wins in a free market. Its working as intended.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    I don't mind casual gaming, in fact I like that there are small activities to do in most MMOs, but there's an argument that the market would be healthier if "casual" gaming had not been so outrageously copied. We would probably still be at this point where niche games are targeting smaller audiences, we just wouldn't have the inevitable culling of some present titles.
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