Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Do you think instant gratification is ruining MMORPGs?

12357

Comments

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by taus01

    Now, if i would have a signature saying: "Buy Cyberpunk 2077 NOW. Preorder for only $299 founders pack woth $6377", then you would be right.

    True fanboys do things like that.

    Indeed they do and companies like Perfect World with their ridiculous Neverwinter founders pack advertisement encourage this bad behaviour. Anyone buying that, is in my eyes, a complete idiot unless they have too much money. Even then, one should not encourage these companies.

    Good luck stopping that. For every 1 who apposes this, 10 are buying. It's a lost cause. 

    yup i myself purchased the $60 pack.. why? because after playing beta/alpha i find it would be worth putting a little money into.. MMOs imho are almost always worth the money. You can easily put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into and still not see all the game has to offer.. for that many hours of entertainment $60 is nothing...just the foundry system is worth it for me in neverwinter. 

    I am intrigued, would you mind showing us which games you recently played for hundreds of hours? Screenshots please. It can't be just GW2 and if so then show us the hundreds upon hundreds of hours you spent there.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by taus01

    Now, if i would have a signature saying: "Buy Cyberpunk 2077 NOW. Preorder for only $299 founders pack woth $6377", then you would be right.

    True fanboys do things like that.

    Indeed they do and companies like Perfect World with their ridiculous Neverwinter founders pack advertisement encourage this bad behaviour. Anyone buying that, is in my eyes, a complete idiot unless they have too much money. Even then, one should not encourage these companies.

    Good luck stopping that. For every 1 who apposes this, 10 are buying. It's a lost cause. 

    yup i myself purchased the $60 pack.. why? because after playing beta/alpha i find it would be worth putting a little money into.. MMOs imho are almost always worth the money. You can easily put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into and still not see all the game has to offer.. for that many hours of entertainment $60 is nothing...just the foundry system is worth it for me in neverwinter. 

    I am intrigued, would you mind showing us which games you recently played for hundreds of hours? Screenshots please. It can't be just GW2 and if so then show us the hundreds upon hundreds of hours you spent there.

    http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4360/gw030o.jpg

    you can see my /age on that SS

    not sure how you can't see the value in these games.. hell i get more play hours on betas of most MMOs than i get from the average single player game

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    yup i myself purchased the $60 pack.. why? because after playing beta/alpha i find it would be worth putting a little money into.. MMOs imho are almost always worth the money. You can easily put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into and still not see all the game has to offer.. for that many hours of entertainment $60 is nothing...just the foundry system is worth it for me in neverwinter. 

    I am intrigued, would you mind showing us which games you recently played for hundreds of hours? Screenshots please. It can't be just GW2 and if so then show us the hundreds upon hundreds of hours you spent there.

    http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4360/gw030o.jpg

    you can see my /age on that SS

    not sure how you can't see the value in these games.. hell i get more play hours on betas of most MMOs than i get from the average single player game

    Cute character, I already know you play guildwars. What about other games recently released. You can't play more than one if you commit hundreds of hours into them.

    Not bad, 105 hours, that's a start. I raise you my FFXI playtime. Let me get a screenshot.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    yup i myself purchased the $60 pack.. why? because after playing beta/alpha i find it would be worth putting a little money into.. MMOs imho are almost always worth the money. You can easily put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into and still not see all the game has to offer.. for that many hours of entertainment $60 is nothing...just the foundry system is worth it for me in neverwinter. 

    I am intrigued, would you mind showing us which games you recently played for hundreds of hours? Screenshots please. It can't be just GW2 and if so then show us the hundreds upon hundreds of hours you spent there.

    http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4360/gw030o.jpg

    you can see my /age on that SS

    not sure how you can't see the value in these games.. hell i get more play hours on betas of most MMOs than i get from the average single player game

    Not loading for me, but i already know you play guildwars. What about other games recently released. You can't play more than one if you commit hundreds of hours into them.

    i have played almost 420 hours since launch.. that really isn't that much I still got plenty of time for other games even with a job and family

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RattsRatts Member Posts: 48

    Waaah!  My massive pointless timesink isn't enough of a massive pointless timesink!

     

    Seriously, the entire concept of "accomplishment" in connection with video games is a contradiction in terms, if you think anything you do in a game means anything at all you're a losing the game of RL.  It's a diversion to decompress, so instant gratification is the superior design principle.  QED

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    yup i myself purchased the $60 pack.. why? because after playing beta/alpha i find it would be worth putting a little money into.. MMOs imho are almost always worth the money. You can easily put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into and still not see all the game has to offer.. for that many hours of entertainment $60 is nothing...just the foundry system is worth it for me in neverwinter. 

    I am intrigued, would you mind showing us which games you recently played for hundreds of hours? Screenshots please. It can't be just GW2 and if so then show us the hundreds upon hundreds of hours you spent there.

    http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4360/gw030o.jpg

    you can see my /age on that SS

    not sure how you can't see the value in these games.. hell i get more play hours on betas of most MMOs than i get from the average single player game

    Not loading for me, but i already know you play guildwars. What about other games recently released. You can't play more than one if you commit hundreds of hours into them.

    i have played almost 420 hours since launch.. that really isn't that much I still got plenty of time for other games even with a job and family

    I find it hard to find games to put that much time into. Most of them are way to repetitive and boring.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by taus01
     

    I find it hard to find games to put that much time into. Most of them are way to repetitive and boring.

    same with me only a select few hold me for hundreds upon hundreds of hours BUT even if you hate a MMO the value in content is there even if you don't like the game personally. I play all types of games and no other games for me offers as much value as I get from MMOs.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by sbanes

    Waaah!  My massive pointless timesink isn't enough of a massive pointless timesink!

     

    Seriously, the entire concept of "accomplishment" in connection with video games is a contradiction in terms, if you think anything you do in a game means anything at all you're a losing the game of RL.  It's a diversion to decompress, so instant gratification is the superior design principle.  QED

    Nothing you do matters. If you already won the game of RL and you are max level, you got enough to keep playing until your system gets shut down, then it does not really matter what you do in your free time. I do prefer to do other things too, like snowboarding, biking or windsurfing but i like gaming none the less.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211
    Originally posted by sbanes

    Waaah!  My massive pointless timesink isn't enough of a massive pointless timesink!

     

    Seriously, the entire concept of "accomplishment" in connection with video games is a contradiction in terms, if you think anything you do in a game means anything at all you're a losing the game of RL.  It's a diversion to decompress, so instant gratification is the superior design principle.  QED

    I'm sorry that I'm not a sheep. What's the difference between a video game and a sport? That society is decided that sports is valuable, even though really its has no redeeming qualities that can't better be presented in other fashions.

    Video games, even without timesinks and grinds, are worth more fun for less money. And being good at a video game doesn't involve concussions and broken bones.

    Do you think anything you do in real life matters? The universe doesn't give a fuck about a bunch of meatsacks on a mudball that will be extinct inside a million years.

    Say it with me now:

    My whole life is meaningless, has no value and isn't really that interesting.

    Was that so hard? Seriously, get over yourself.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by sbanes

    Waaah!  My massive pointless timesink isn't enough of a massive pointless timesink!

    Seriously, the entire concept of "accomplishment" in connection with video games is a contradiction in terms, if you think anything you do in a game means anything at all you're a losing the game of RL.  It's a diversion to decompress, so instant gratification is the superior design principle.  QED

    That goes too far.  At the end of the day, games can teach some rather valuable skills (otherwise we wouldn't have the instinctual urge to play.)  So while an accomplishment like beating a tough raid boss might not in itself be important, the skillsets involved usually do tend to be:

    • Management: organizing groups of players, and dealing with problems like underperformers, drama queens, and retaining high performers.
    • Efficiency: prioritized, efficient decision-making.
    • Education: both on the side of seeking out knowledge related to a topic, and creating that content in a way which effectively teaches it.
    If your angle was that nothing you do anywhere means anything at all, I could give you that.  It's the idea that games somehow matter a lot less than other parts of life which doesn't really make sense.
     
    None of which really speaks directly to whether games should have instant gratification -- in fact you learn more in games the less things are abstracted behind purposeless timesinks.  The human mind wants to play, and is good at recognizing when something is a waste of time.  That's why "instant gratification" games (as the OP calls them) do so well: they don't waste players' time.
     
    (Personally I'd question what 100+ hour MMORPGs the OP actually considers instant gratification.  WOW is certainly gratifying to play at all times, but not all of its gratification is instant. I don't have best-in-slot everything yet.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741

    The number of skills a MMO can teach you does depend on its complexity, easymode MMO's do not give you much in the way of complexity.

    I also think you missed out the most important skill they teach us, how to compete. The concept of the importance of competition, which has been removed from education and become a dirty word in the media. MMO's show you how competition makes you thrive and how grouping makes you stronger.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 Member Posts: 636

    To stark a choice so I voted no.

    There needs to be a game (do NOT mention EVE...) which isn;t set exclusively in space in which it takes a long time to max out, but where the advancement does not rely on grind.

    The gaming population is getting older on average and has less and less spare time to grind for virtual rewards.

    A game which gets the balance right between slow offline advancement and slow online advancement would be best.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 Member Posts: 636
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by sbanes

    Waaah!  My massive pointless timesink isn't enough of a massive pointless timesink!

     

    Seriously, the entire concept of "accomplishment" in connection with video games is a contradiction in terms, if you think anything you do in a game means anything at all you're a losing the game of RL.  It's a diversion to decompress, so instant gratification is the superior design principle.  QED

    I'm sorry that I'm not a sheep. What's the difference between a video game and a sport? That society is decided that sports is valuable, even though really its has no redeeming qualities that can't better be presented in other fashions.

    Video games, even without timesinks and grinds, are worth more fun for less money. And being good at a video game doesn't involve concussions and broken bones.

    Do you think anything you do in real life matters? The universe doesn't give a fuck about a bunch of meatsacks on a mudball that will be extinct inside a million years.

    Say it with me now:

    My whole life is meaningless, has no value and isn't really that interesting.

    Was that so hard? Seriously, get over yourself.

    Average Dev's get paid 40K+ a year.

    Average football players get paid 40K+ a week.

    WE pay their wages.

    The only difference is, season ticket-buying football fans get fleeced TO DEATH and keep cheering - MMO players even get a sniff of a cash-cow at their expense (online shop etc.) they complain.

    MMO gamer's should not be compared to football fans for all kinds of reasons - common sense being the least of them.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Average Dev's get paid 40K+ a year.

    Average football players get paid 40K+ a week.

    WE pay their wages.

    The only difference is, season ticket-buying football fans get fleeced TO DEATH and keep cheering - MMO players even get a sniff of a cash-cow at their expense (online shop etc.) they complain.

    MMO gamer's should not be compared to football fans for all kinds of reasons - common sense being the least of them.

    That you write this during the Sim City 5 mess is rather amusing to me.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • kabitoshinkabitoshin Member UncommonPosts: 854
    For me the time it took to get 1 - 60 in vanilla WoW is how fast I'd like to level. It took me six months just to get max level, and geared in tier 1. Todays games also have lackluster PvE, I remember our guild taking a month to kill Illidan before 2.8. Don't get me wrong but WoW still has fun heroic PvE raiding content, but it can be downed alot quicker these days.
  • shingoukiehshingoukieh Member UncommonPosts: 126

    honestly i believed PVP ruined mmorpgs...because every game has to have ''balanced'' pvp.  pvp in mmorpgs arent even that fun anymore.

  • HedeonHedeon Member UncommonPosts: 997

    going to say no in this particular poll, the time it takes to get to max level means less to me, than what Im doing to get there - I do like games where it seems to be never ending, while still being able to play the game - am not much into grinding just for grindings sake.

    but the long levels used to mean I didnt care to look at the XP bar, often I d just hide it if possible, so wouldnt get distracted by it.

    in a pure yes/no poll it is going to be no though

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,466

    To the OP  "you choose the mmo's you play, you play the mmo's you choose". So when people make threads like this i just laugh and wonder if they really want what the claim they want.

    If the OP was really looking for non instant gratification and deep crafting system then he would be playing games like Age Of Wushu-Vanguard and numerous other MMO's that are not instant gratification.

    Problem i'm seeing is people like the OP are just not happy and spend most of their time searching for the perfect MMO, it's not out there.

    In five years time they will still be making the same threads while good MMO's pass them by.

    OP please do not take this as personal but perhaps it's you who is the problem and not MMO's. No one forces you to play these instant gratification MMO's.




  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower Member Posts: 1,245
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    MMORPGs were once a genre of endless levels where players were on a scale compared to one another, not on a scale compared to the maximum level achievable.

    New games always boast about their maximum level, what you can have once you arrive at it, and how long it takes to get there.

    Crafting typically requires you to stand in one place, or to visit between the crafting place and an auction block, and the levels rise up 2 to 5 per visit.

    Also, in modern mmo games, you're a noob until you're max level, and then you're still a noob.

    Once you reach maximum level, it transforms into a dungeon running game, or a repetitive pvp grind, or you simply keep doing quests and the levels go away.

    The genre was never meant to be any of these things.  They were supposed to be a serious time sink with no top, no end game, no actual possibility of getting to maximum level.  I'm not talking about since WOW, I'm talking about 10 years ago + when the genre was what it was meant to be.

    Reaching maximum level in your crafting skill used to be a year long endeavour, now it's a month, and the year long endeavour is to get the recipe books to craft the item.

    We used to have crafting chars that we trained on 8 hour shifts around the clock getting towards maximum level, and we calculated how many months it'd take of dedication to get there.  Now 1 guy can sit there for an hour a day and get there in a month.

    You used to have to search for what you were looking for, and maybe get frustrated and go google it.  Now theres always an arrow or dotted line under your character pointing towards your next quest destination.  There's this giant city, with no need to ever explore it because you're always directed to the next spot.  Sure I know guildwars bandaided it with the climb a wall and see a cutscene thing but that's kinda pathetic because if you just want to quest, it's a guided tour.

    I'll just sum this up by saying, people get what they're working to achieve, there are just a giant pile of short term goals with no real long term goals.  People reach a batch of their short term goals and leave, or they realize that the new mmo game they're playing is just a hamster wheel of short term goals (where sometimes every stop is a trip to an item mall) and leave.

    What happened to the old fashioned never-ending story mmorpgs where there was a theoretical maximum level, but no real hope of getting there because you'd have to spend 3 years 18 hours a day and get a divorce.  Where if you really wanted to be maximum crafting level you better have an alt and 3 people from your guild chipping in.

    Every new title we see, deep down when we say we're hoping for a challenge, we really mean we're tired of the rat-race to maximum level followed by instance running to get the latest tier set followed by standing in a building chatting with other bored people.  With the option of pvping which requires you to work on a second set of gear which you have problems finding a place to store.

    33hours lvl80 in GW2 after that many in few days and map completion wich should be even harder many already complete after first 2 weeks(imposible with bugs but prolly exploited).

    Welcome to 2013 fast to end game no timesink thats future of mmo's

    Old skool hardcore is dead im affraid.

  • jazz.bejazz.be Member UncommonPosts: 962

    Can gratification even be instant? How does that work?

    I think gratification is simply missing, that's one of the elements that is being left out.

    Everything is way to "fun" to feel gratification. :-)

  • AtliJorundAtliJorund Member Posts: 13
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon

    To the OP  "you choose the mmo's you play, you play the mmo's you choose". So when people make threads like this i just laugh and wonder if they really want what the claim they want.

    If the OP was really looking for non instant gratification and deep crafting system then he would be playing games like Age Of Wushu-Vanguard and numerous other MMO's that are not instant gratification.

    Problem i'm seeing is people like the OP are just not happy and spend most of their time searching for the perfect MMO, it's not out there.

    In five years time they will still be making the same threads while good MMO's pass them by.

    OP please do not take this as personal but perhaps it's you who is the problem and not MMO's. No one forces you to play these instant gratification MMO's.

    That's a hard thing to accept sometimes. I think it's comparable to relationships or being married. You're with someone for so long that you begin to nitpick on certain aspects that you don't like about that person and then maybe start having doubts. You start thinking the grass might be greener on the other side, that the "one" might be out there waiting for you. Truth is there is never a perfect "one." Just be thankful you're with someone that you can stand their company for more than 10 minutes.

     

    ..or maybe we're all just tired and jaded.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,466
    Originally posted by AtliJorund
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon

    To the OP  "you choose the mmo's you play, you play the mmo's you choose". So when people make threads like this i just laugh and wonder if they really want what the claim they want.

    If the OP was really looking for non instant gratification and deep crafting system then he would be playing games like Age Of Wushu-Vanguard and numerous other MMO's that are not instant gratification.

    Problem i'm seeing is people like the OP are just not happy and spend most of their time searching for the perfect MMO, it's not out there.

    In five years time they will still be making the same threads while good MMO's pass them by.

    OP please do not take this as personal but perhaps it's you who is the problem and not MMO's. No one forces you to play these instant gratification MMO's.

    That's a hard thing to accept sometimes. I think it's comparable to relationships or being married. You're with someone for so long that you begin to nitpick on certain aspects that you don't like about that person and then maybe start having doubts. You start thinking the grass might be greener on the other side, that the "one" might be out there waiting for you. Truth is there is never a perfect "one." Just be thankful you're with someone that you can stand their company for more than 10 minutes.

     

    ..or maybe we're all just tired and jaded.

    I think you give a good analogy, it's almost sad in a way. What happened to the days of finding a good MMO and sticking with it, seems many have turned into journey men. This site has a long list of MMO's to choose from but i would bet that all of us haven't even gone through the whole list since we joined if ever.

    Seems that following the hype path is the norm and the only option but it's not. Sometimes straying off the beat and track can take you to places you never knew existed, suddenly you find a place that is pleasing. Thing is, you will never know what is out there if you constantly stick to the same path.

    Turn a corner and you might very well be supprised, in other words don't follow the hype.




  • LeetheLeethe Member UncommonPosts: 893
    The trend for instant gratification has been growing in the "west" for decades. What you see in games and designed into games is merely a reflection of what is happening to our society at large.

    There is NO miracle patch.

    95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.

    Hope is not a stategy.
    ______________________________
    "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    The number of skills a MMO can teach you does depend on its complexity, easymode MMO's do not give you much in the way of complexity.

    I also think you missed out the most important skill they teach us, how to compete. The concept of the importance of competition, which has been removed from education and become a dirty word in the media. MMO's show you how competition makes you thrive and how grouping makes you stronger.

    Why is that even important? MMOs are games, not educational tools.

    Now if you want to talk about the state of education in this country, that is a completely separate conversation.

    But I do not evaluate MMOs based on their educational value. I only evaluate them to see if they are fun.

    And in terms of complexity? THere are a lot more complex mechanics, in newer MMOS, in just optimiznig DPS, compared to all the old games like UO and EQ. If you need a software to optimize (like RAWR), it is complex.

    In fact, can you optimize without help?

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741

    When I mean complexity I am talking complexity of gameplay for the player, not the software. Come on now we have mulled over that enough times.

    Also the Sim City problems were mentioned, how many more times, do not pre-order, let the game settle after launch, buy it if you like what you are hearing then.

Sign In or Register to comment.