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Do you think instant gratification is ruining MMORPGs?

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by risenbones

    I don't know.  How about we turn the question around a bit and see what happens.  Lets ask have MMO's really become easier or have we just been playing them for so long that we are better at playing them?

    A lot of MMO devs tried to avoid that problem, which is why we see the tutorials and initial gameplay that many veteran players consider hand-holding.  It's an issue that became very evident with a lot of single player sequels, especially RTS-style games, where the games evolved over time such that existing players adopted the new gameplay but people new to the genre were completely lost as to what was going on and how to do things.

    MMO gamers take expectation to the extreme, though, with certain mechanics and features being considered standard, their absence seen as a violation.

    For example, if when an MMO gamer starts a new MMO, they'll often expect

    • - an auction house
    • - some kind of big main city
    • - a grind or level restriction for mounts
    • - tiered crafting components
    • - conning of some kind, and even level to mean relatively easy difficulty.
    • - IRC-style chat system
    • - slash commands (yes, even with today's interactive, graphical UIs)
    • - jumping, even if there is no gameplay reason for it
    • - quest hubs or other progression guidance

     

    Someone new to the genre does not have these expectations and, as such, doesn't know to already gravitate to these things. If anything, the problem isn't dumbing down, but the lack of diversity on the part of the devs and the resistance to change from the EQ/WOW design on the part of the players.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by taus01

    Stop buying bad games and pre-order on empty promises.

    What game do you play? Or are you one of those posters that doesn't actually currently play any game?

    Cyberpunk 2077? Kickstarter project. Which seems..a little..contrary to the sermon he just delivered.

    "The developers said that it won't be ready until 2015 at the earliest because of their other projects."

    Hilarious (:

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AmanaAmana Moderator UncommonPosts: 3,912
    Hey guys, please stay on topic here. If it's a topic you feel is overdiscussed, then you can express that without  derailing.

    To give feedback on moderation, contact [email protected]

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    MMOs used to be for masochists that liked to punish themselves.  Now they're for everyone.  I miss the days:

    • When dying actually pissed you off.
    • When going "Ding" actually meant something; when reaching level 50, 60, or 100 was a great achievement that was splattered across everyone's screen server wide.
    • When in a group, if someone doesn't know what they're doing, you showed them how to do it, not just kick them out.
    • When crafters ruled the world and could make tons of money to buy protection for gathering materials.
    • When there were multiple ways or areas to level up. Today it's maybe two ways to go if you're lucky.
    • When there was exploration, and getting lost was an hourly occurence.
    • When running from town to town was actually dangerous.  You had to watch out for players and npcs.
    • When people played with honor and you could have a full loot full pvp game, without people griefing or ganking.
    • When guilds were around to police areas and help those that got griefed or ganked.  Didn't need GMs to fix corpse camping.  If you did it to someone, there's about 20 players coming to do it to you for the next hour.
    • When MMOs had no real endgame.  If you reach the maximum level, there was still plenty of work to be done (and not just raiding).
    • When you met complete strangers out in the world, and you became friends within hours of killing the same mobs or doing the same quests.
    • When crafting took forever and required you to move all over, not only to gather materials, but to actually make things as well.
    I think you get my drift.  They've taken so many things out of MMOs, the newer ones just aren't any fun anymore.  For me, Fun is number one requirement on my list.  Forget graphics, sounds, music, even gameplay.  If I'm not having fun, then I'm moving on.

    +1

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by taus01

    Stop buying bad games and pre-order on empty promises.

    What game do you play? Or are you one of those posters that doesn't actually currently play any game?

    Cyberpunk 2077? Kickstarter project. Which seems..a little..contrary to the sermon he just delivered.

    "The developers said that it won't be ready until 2015 at the earliest because of their other projects."

    Hilarious (:

    @IceWhite & Axehilt

    What is wrong with Cyberpunk 2077? Since when is Cyberpunk 2077 a kickstarter project?

    Most of all, what does that have to do with my post, it seems you need some help in understanding english. I will be glad to explain, just send me a pm. I know not everyone is a native speaker, feel free to contact me.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    MMOs used to be for masochists that liked to punish themselves.  Now they're for everyone.  I miss the days:

    • When dying actually pissed you off.
    Dying still pisses me off.
    • When going "Ding" actually meant something; when reaching level 50, 60, or 100 was a great achievement that was splattered across everyone's screen server wide.
    Getting to max level still feels satisfying.
    • When in a group, if someone doesn't know what they're doing, you showed them how to do it, not just kick them out.
    I help people if they look like they don't know what they're doing.
    • When crafters ruled the world and could make tons of money to buy protection for gathering materials.
    I've never played a game where crafters ruled the world. Maybe A Tale in the Desert. Do you have an example of one?
    • When there were multiple ways or areas to level up. Today it's maybe two ways to go if you're lucky.
    There are more ways to level now than there used to be in older generation games. Usually PvP, dungeons, questing, exploring and crafting. In older games there was maybe grinding/questing/crafting. Basically, it is the opposite of what you are saying here.
    • When there was exploration, and getting lost was an hourly occurence.
    The only games I ever got lost in were MUDs. I've never actually been lost in any graphical MMORPG. However, the first graphical MMORPG I played was UO which may not be going far enough back so that your point makes sense to me. 
    • When running from town to town was actually dangerous.  You had to watch out for players and npcs.
    Plenty of games today have open world PvP making that run from town to town likely more dangerous than it ever was in the past.
    • When people played with honor and you could have a full loot full pvp game, without people griefing or ganking.
    People have always griefed and ganked. UO was notorious for it. They even added new shards with different rulesets because people felt like they were getting ganked too much.
    • When guilds were around to police areas and help those that got griefed or ganked.  Didn't need GMs to fix corpse camping.  If you did it to someone, there's about 20 players coming to do it to you for the next hour.
    This statement is strange to me because in your previous statement you said that people were not griefed or ganked. Yet here you are saying that people were indeed griefed and ganked and that people would self police. If people had to self police, then there were a lot of people that griefed/ganked. In today's OWPVP games people still self police.
    • When MMOs had no real endgame.  If you reach the maximum level, there was still plenty of work to be done (and not just raiding).
    What work?
    • When you met complete strangers out in the world, and you became friends within hours of killing the same mobs or doing the same quests.
    I still make friends in games while doing dungeons or quests or whatever else.
    • When crafting took forever and required you to move all over, not only to gather materials, but to actually make things as well.
    Was crafting ever that great? I think SWG had a pretty cool system going for it, but all those other old school games had extremely boring and repetitive crafting. I'd like it if more of todays games expanded on their crafting more as well though.
     
    I think you get my drift.  They've taken so many things out of MMOs, the newer ones just aren't any fun anymore.  For me, Fun is number one requirement on my list.  Forget graphics, sounds, music, even gameplay.  If I'm not having fun, then I'm moving on.

     

    My problem with this post is that almost all of those things still exist in MMORPGs today. You mentioned a bunch of things that are actually still in existence and simply stated they weren't.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    MMOs used to be for masochists that liked to punish themselves.  Now they're for everyone.  I miss the days:

    • When dying actually pissed you off.
    • When going "Ding" actually meant something; when reaching level 50, 60, or 100 was a great achievement that was splattered across everyone's screen server wide.
    • When in a group, if someone doesn't know what they're doing, you showed them how to do it, not just kick them out.
    • When crafters ruled the world and could make tons of money to buy protection for gathering materials.
    • When there were multiple ways or areas to level up. Today it's maybe two ways to go if you're lucky.
    • When there was exploration, and getting lost was an hourly occurence.
    • When running from town to town was actually dangerous.  You had to watch out for players and npcs.
    • When people played with honor and you could have a full loot full pvp game, without people griefing or ganking.
    • When guilds were around to police areas and help those that got griefed or ganked.  Didn't need GMs to fix corpse camping.  If you did it to someone, there's about 20 players coming to do it to you for the next hour.
    • When MMOs had no real endgame.  If you reach the maximum level, there was still plenty of work to be done (and not just raiding).
    • When you met complete strangers out in the world, and you became friends within hours of killing the same mobs or doing the same quests.
    • When crafting took forever and required you to move all over, not only to gather materials, but to actually make things as well.
    I think you get my drift.  They've taken so many things out of MMOs, the newer ones just aren't any fun anymore.  For me, Fun is number one requirement on my list.  Forget graphics, sounds, music, even gameplay.  If I'm not having fun, then I'm moving on.

    +1

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    mmorpgs arent real mmorpgs anymore because the devs dont want to risk doing the best. They just want to shortcut to the easiest format.

    No risk, no reward is the perfect term to be used here. As a gamer, if i dont take risks i wont achieve my in game goal. And as a developer, if they dont take risks, we end up with the crap we have these days.

    No MMO's arent this supposedly elusive "MMO" of olde because those games attracted ten thousand player population whereas todays MMO are designed to attract millions.

     

    I'll take the McMMO any day of the week if it means I can actually enjoy the game instead of being bogged down with unneeded systems designed to limit fun.  Happy MMO's finally copied the things that make console gaming the pre-imenent gaming platform because it catered to fun at the expense of restiction.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    mmorpgs arent real mmorpgs anymore because the devs dont want to risk doing the best. They just want to shortcut to the easiest format.

    No risk, no reward is the perfect term to be used here. As a gamer, if i dont take risks i wont achieve my in game goal. And as a developer, if they dont take risks, we end up with the crap we have these days.

    No MMO's arent this supposedly elusive "MMO" of olde because those games attracted ten thousand player population whereas todays MMO are designed to attract millions.

     

    I'll take the McMMO any day of the week if it means I can actually enjoy the game instead of being bogged down with unneeded systems designed to limit fun.  Happy MMO's finally copied the things that make console gaming the pre-imenent gaming platform because it catered to fun at the expense of restiction.

    Also need to take into account that MMO were pritty much unknown back in early 2000 layer 1990s mainly because of the internet was rather pricy and not as common as it is now.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148Member CommonPosts: 6,690
    I think the developers today are the ones who really want that instant gratification. They want the quick and easy way all the time. They want to make a mmo that basically runs itself so they can keep pumping out those quick and easy theme parks. Back in the day devs made their game where it took you a long time to achieve goals and you only played 1 mmo for a long time. I saw nothing wrong with that. It is the devs that want the quick and easy money, not the players.
    30
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by taus01

    @IceWhite & Axehilt

    What is wrong with Cyberpunk 2077? Since when is Cyberpunk 2077 a kickstarter project?

    Most of all, what does that have to do with my post, it seems you need some help in understanding english. I will be glad to explain, just send me a pm. I know not everyone is a native speaker, feel free to contact me.

    Eh to be fair I didn't look it up to verify his comment.  Having done so, you're right.

    Sort of. To help hype a game prior to launch, in a way, rubs up against your stance of not pre-ordering (supporting) MMORPGs prior to them delivering on their promises.  Especially since you're the one in the thread calling out GW2 for (in your opinion) not delivering on their 'manifesto' promises.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    mmorpgs arent real mmorpgs anymore because the devs dont want to risk doing the best. They just want to shortcut to the easiest format.

    No risk, no reward is the perfect term to be used here. As a gamer, if i dont take risks i wont achieve my in game goal. And as a developer, if they dont take risks, we end up with the crap we have these days.

    No MMO's arent this supposedly elusive "MMO" of olde because those games attracted ten thousand player population whereas todays MMO are designed to attract millions.

     

    I'll take the McMMO any day of the week if it means I can actually enjoy the game instead of being bogged down with unneeded systems designed to limit fun.  Happy MMO's finally copied the things that make console gaming the pre-imenent gaming platform because it catered to fun at the expense of restiction.

    Typical console gamer. Has no idea what marketing and install base are.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Typical console gamer. Has no idea what marketing and install base are.

    Are you under the impression marketing installs are something not available to non-mainstream titles?  Because I assure you: they're also advertising.  They're just seeing worse results and performing worse overall as games.

    People pay for fun.  If a game isn't fun, or if a game hides its fun unnecessarily, it withers and dies.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742

    Only 3% said they did not understand the poll. Have to say that made me proud, I was starting to get the idea that MMO players do not even undersatnd that MMO's are easy mode these days. If all you have is easy mode how are you going to realise anything else could exist?

     

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by taus01

    @IceWhite & Axehilt

    What is wrong with Cyberpunk 2077? Since when is Cyberpunk 2077 a kickstarter project?

    Most of all, what does that have to do with my post, it seems you need some help in understanding english. I will be glad to explain, just send me a pm. I know not everyone is a native speaker, feel free to contact me.

    Eh to be fair I didn't look it up to verify his comment.  Having done so, you're right.

    Sort of. To help hype a game prior to launch, in a way, rubs up against your stance of not pre-ordering (supporting) MMORPGs prior to them delivering on their promises.  Especially since you're the one in the thread calling out GW2 for (in your opinion) not delivering on their 'manifesto' promises.

    I admire you for admitting this. You have my utmost respect, sir.

    I fail to see how the GW2 manifesto or me liking Cyberpunk 2077 goes against my stance of checking before buying. One has nothing to do with the other.

    It all comes down to fact checking (like you forgot yourself). Whether it be some claim by a forum warrior or what is actually true about a hype. Then people should look at what is actually delivered. Unfortunately with games, there seems to be no fact checking at all.

     

    If you would buy a fridge, you would check multiple sources for energy efficiency, usability, the reputation of the company with support and returns. All this common sense when it comes to a real product be it a fridge, car or phone. You would physically look at the item before you buy it, drive it or use it in the store. Why not with games?

    I blame all this partly, a big part actually, on review sites like this one. There are no such things as bad reviews anymore, all games are above average and most are in the top tier no matter what. Why is that you ask? It's not good to bite the hand that feeds you. No advertisement, no money.

     

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • xeniarxeniar Member UncommonPosts: 805
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by taus01

    @IceWhite & Axehilt

    What is wrong with Cyberpunk 2077? Since when is Cyberpunk 2077 a kickstarter project?

    Most of all, what does that have to do with my post, it seems you need some help in understanding english. I will be glad to explain, just send me a pm. I know not everyone is a native speaker, feel free to contact me.

    Eh to be fair I didn't look it up to verify his comment.  Having done so, you're right.

    Sort of. To help hype a game prior to launch, in a way, rubs up against your stance of not pre-ordering (supporting) MMORPGs prior to them delivering on their promises.  Especially since you're the one in the thread calling out GW2 for (in your opinion) not delivering on their 'manifesto' promises.

    Sounds alot like politics XD

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    mmorpgs arent real mmorpgs anymore because the devs dont want to risk doing the best. They just want to shortcut to the easiest format.

    No risk, no reward is the perfect term to be used here. As a gamer, if i dont take risks i wont achieve my in game goal. And as a developer, if they dont take risks, we end up with the crap we have these days.

    No MMO's arent this supposedly elusive "MMO" of olde because those games attracted ten thousand player population whereas todays MMO are designed to attract millions.

     

    I'll take the McMMO any day of the week if it means I can actually enjoy the game instead of being bogged down with unneeded systems designed to limit fun.  Happy MMO's finally copied the things that make console gaming the pre-imenent gaming platform because it catered to fun at the expense of restiction.

    Typical console gamer. Has no idea what marketing and install base are.

    I don't even own a console but the fact remains the old school MMO's were not user friendly and overly complicated almost every one of their systems which was another jab to the gut for attracting newer players.  I have been MMO gaming almost exclusively since November of 1999 when I got started in Asheron's Call.  Even though it still remains my all time favorite MMO todate, it isn't without its many issues.  Which is the gist of my post.  Theres nothing wrong with todays MMO's because more often then not they are designed with fun first and longevity second and this is something I enjoy way more then those old schoold MMO's can deliver.

     

    You too can learn that Rose-Tinted Glasses are good for nothing once you take em off.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by taus01

    @IceWhite & Axehilt

    What is wrong with Cyberpunk 2077? Since when is Cyberpunk 2077 a kickstarter project?

    Most of all, what does that have to do with my post, it seems you need some help in understanding english. I will be glad to explain, just send me a pm. I know not everyone is a native speaker, feel free to contact me.

    Eh to be fair I didn't look it up to verify his comment.  Having done so, you're right.

    Sort of. To help hype a game prior to launch, in a way, rubs up against your stance of not pre-ordering (supporting) MMORPGs prior to them delivering on their promises.  Especially since you're the one in the thread calling out GW2 for (in your opinion) not delivering on their 'manifesto' promises.

    Shrug, made an assumption (given the flood of vaporware we've already seen coming out of kickstarter). Fast post, was wrong, mea culpa.

    Mostly reaction to the preachy, more than the game. "Stop buying bad games and pre-order on empty promises." While he's, you know, marketing with his sig...and likely will be for several years(?) Just struck me as hypocritical.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by taus01

    @IceWhite & Axehilt

    What is wrong with Cyberpunk 2077? Since when is Cyberpunk 2077 a kickstarter project?

    Most of all, what does that have to do with my post, it seems you need some help in understanding english. I will be glad to explain, just send me a pm. I know not everyone is a native speaker, feel free to contact me.

    Eh to be fair I didn't look it up to verify his comment.  Having done so, you're right.

    Sort of. To help hype a game prior to launch, in a way, rubs up against your stance of not pre-ordering (supporting) MMORPGs prior to them delivering on their promises.  Especially since you're the one in the thread calling out GW2 for (in your opinion) not delivering on their 'manifesto' promises.

    Shrug, made an assumption (given the flood of vaporware we've already seen coming out of kickstarter). Fast post, was wrong, mea culpa.

    Mostly reaction to the preachy, more than the game. "Stop buying bad games and pre-order on empty promises." While he's, you know, marketing with his sig...and likely will be for several years(?) Just struck me as hypocritical.

     

    First of all, Hypocrisy would be if i did not act on my own standards. In this case, buying a preorder or supporting a kickstarter. It has NOTHING to do with promoting or finding a game interesting. 

    I can like a game or look forward to one, that has nothing to do with the fact that you should still check before you buy.

     

    PS: This game is going to be made by CDProject RED. The makers of Witcher and Witcher 2. Far from a vaporware or low busgt title.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    nvm. Next topic, please.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by taus01

    Now, if i would have a signature saying: "Buy Cyberpunk 2077 NOW. Preorder for only $299 founders pack woth $6377", then you would be right.

    True fanboys do things like that.

    Indeed they do and companies like Perfect World with their ridiculous Neverwinter founders pack advertisement encourage this bad behaviour. Anyone buying that, is in my eyes, a complete idiot unless they have too much money. Even then, one should not encourage these companies.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    I don't believe MMORPGs are being ruined, so I would have to say no.  The genre is doing just fine.

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • BossalinieBossalinie Member UncommonPosts: 724
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by taus01

    Now, if i would have a signature saying: "Buy Cyberpunk 2077 NOW. Preorder for only $299 founders pack woth $6377", then you would be right.

    True fanboys do things like that.

    Indeed they do and companies like Perfect World with their ridiculous Neverwinter founders pack advertisement encourage this bad behaviour. Anyone buying that, is in my eyes, a complete idiot unless they have too much money. Even then, one should not encourage these companies.

    Good luck stopping that. For every 1 who apposes this, 10 are buying. It's a lost cause. 

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Bossalinie
    Originally posted by taus01
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by taus01

    Now, if i would have a signature saying: "Buy Cyberpunk 2077 NOW. Preorder for only $299 founders pack woth $6377", then you would be right.

    True fanboys do things like that.

    Indeed they do and companies like Perfect World with their ridiculous Neverwinter founders pack advertisement encourage this bad behaviour. Anyone buying that, is in my eyes, a complete idiot unless they have too much money. Even then, one should not encourage these companies.

    Good luck stopping that. For every 1 who apposes this, 10 are buying. It's a lost cause. 

    yup i myself purchased the $60 pack.. why? because after playing beta/alpha i find it would be worth putting a little money into.. MMOs imho are almost always worth the money. You can easily put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into and still not see all the game has to offer.. for that many hours of entertainment $60 is nothing...just the foundry system is worth it for me in neverwinter. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by colddog04

     

    My problem with this post is that almost all of those things still exist in MMORPGs today. You mentioned a bunch of things that are actually still in existence and simply stated they weren't.

    They exist like flavor exists in a badger fried in motor oil compared to grilled steak :)

    Flame on!

    :)

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